John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,541 through 25,560 (of 25,990 total)
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  • #946264
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, YOU SAID……..> “@Gene,

    Happy Easter!

    me…..I don’t celebrate “Easter” ,  the goddess of sex and fertility,  bunny rabbits and Easter eggs.  I celebrate  the. “PASSOVER” ,  by remembering the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, that he offered up for the forgiveness of our sins.

    Not that Jesus’ sacrifice itself forgives our sins, as many supposes it does, but that it shows us what is required of us, to have our sins forgiven,  The poring out of “our life”, ie blood, and conforming to the “WILL” OF GOD, just as Jesus himself did,  Through the Holy Spirit given him after he was baptized  in the Jordan river.

    Just as Jesus said, ….”whosoever shall save his life will lose it, whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall save it”.  Blood is the  “SYMBOL”  OF LIFE.

    The Israelites were commanded to kill a lamb by spilling it blood , which was “SYMBOLICALLY ” , showing them, what they had to do, with their life, in order for them to be saved.  Put it together, if you can DT. 

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

    #946265
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    You: Not that Jesus’ sacrifice itself forgives our sins…

    Me: Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Hebrews 9:22 …without shedding of blood is no remission.

    1 John 1:7 …the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    #946266
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: We cannot forget it was the spirit is who impregnated Mary and NOT of the seed of David. Once again, you are justifying lies.

    Me: Let’s consider FOR THE TIME BEING, the discussion of Jesus’ genealogy BETWEEN US, as the SON OF MAN, ENDED IN A STALEMATE.

    THUS FOR A CHANGE, I AM TACKLING THIS PROCESS, AS YOU HINTED OUT, FROM GOD’S SPIRIT PERSPECTIVE, MY SPECIALITY THANKS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT,  ALWAYS THOUGH, TO A CERTAIN LIMIT, AS  I’M AFRAID YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY BLIND, FOCUSSED ONLY ON THE CARNAL PROCESS OF THE JEWISH MESSIAH, WITH EVERY RESPECT.

    NOW, I BELIEVE YOU ARE MORE FAMILIAR AND MATURE WITH JEWISH LITERATURE IN GENERAL, AGAIN TO KEEP REMINDING YOU, FOCUSSED ONLY ON THE CARNAL SIDE OF THINGS, CARNALLY MINDED!!!

    NOW TELL ME!

    IS ISAAC BORN THROUGH NORMAL HUMAN INTERCOURSE, IN THE THOSE DAYS, SATANIC?

    AGAIN I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN JEWISH LITERATURE IN GENERAL, NOT JUST SCRIPTURE OR IF YOU PREFER ONLY SCRIPTURE!

    ONE MORE QUESTION!

    IS THE JEWISH MESSIAH AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING, AND DIFFERENT IN ANY WAY, OR ALSO

    THE SON OF GOD, LIKE JESUS IS?

    #946267
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: I don’t celebrate “Easter”…I celebrate the “PASSOVER”, by remembering the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, that he offered up for the forgiveness of our sins. Not that Jesus’ sacrifice itself forgives our sins.

    Me: You do realize what you said is contradictory? Either the “lamb of God” was offered for the forgiveness of sin or it wasn’t; it can’t be an offering to forgive sin if it doesn’t do exactly that. It then makes the writer of Matthew a liar and he quotes Jesus as saying “this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.” That seems obvious the intended purpose of Jesus’ “sacrifice” was for the forgiveness of sin.

    You also celebrate the “Passover”, did you celebrate this Jewish holiday this past weekend or will you be celebrating it April 22? The Passover lamb atoned for nothing and is a remembrance of the Israelite’s being delivered out of slavery. What you still haven’t explained is why God would offer his “son” as a sacrifice when HE calls human sacrifice detestable. Why did God violate his own words and send his “son” to death? Remember, “the ‘lamb’ was slain from the foundation of the world”, so before the world was created Jesus was already slain in God’s mind; so did Jesus have the “free choice” to not be “sacrificed” since this was planned before the world was made?

    Please explain how one is to “symbolically” spill blood to be saved.

    Then you say to “put it together, if I can”; That’s exactly what I did, I “put it together” and left christianity because of the deception. If you believe I am lying, prove me wrong. Why do you refuse to answer the questions asked in post #946257?

    #946268
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……life is in the blood, blood gives us, the power in this life we now have,  to live and do things, just as it does for all creation.

    Blood in scriptures is used for,  a meaning of life itself.  Without which you could not exist. In the Old Testament God used the pouring out of blood (life) as what is happening when we sin,  what we are doing to ourselves. We are pouring out our lives.   He used lambs blood, as a “substitutional ” example, of what is taking place “IN” us, when we sin. We are giving up  our very own lives, which is in the blood.

    Jesus’ sacrificed “HIS” own life, (from the start to the finish)  to “demonstrate ” to us all, what is required of us all, to inter into the Kingdom of God.   We must all repent and overcome, throw power of God’s “HOLY SPIRIT”.

    Therefore Jesus said……” whosoever will save “HIS” life (the way he lives) will lose it, whosoever will lose his life (the way he lives) for my sake, will save it”.

    This might be to hard for you to understand DT.

    peace and love to you and yours DT…….gene

     

    #946273
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    I can’t post anymore?

    #946276
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    My post didn’t come through.

    WELL, GOODBYE EVERYBODY!

    #946277
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: We cannot forget it was the spirit is who impregnated Mary and NOT of the seed of David.

    Once again, you are justifying lies.

    TRUTH HURTS!!!!

    ME: SO IS THAT HOW YOU BELIEVE IN A  GOD WHO IS OMNIPOTENT???

    YOU HAVE FAITH AS MUCH AS THE MUSLIMS, IF NOT LESS, AS THEY BELIEVE THAT GOD CANNOT HAVE A SON SINCE HE HAS NOT A WOMAN!!

    HA HA  HA  HA  HA HA .

    YOU CAN REMAIN SILENT AS MUCH AS JODI DID.

    THAT JUSTIFIES MY TRUTH!

    NOW READ THIS:

    Luke:3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you,

    that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

    NOW BACK TO Isaac:

    Genesis 18:9 And when they had eaten, they said to him:

    Where is Sara thy wife?

    He answered: Lo, she is in the tent. 

    10And he said to him:

    I will return and come to thee at this time,

    life accompanying and Sara thy wife shall have a son. Which when Sara heard, she laughed behind the door of the tent.

     11Now they were both old, and far advanced in years, and it had ceased to be

    with Sara after the manner of women. 

    12And she laughed secretly, saying:

    After I am grown old, and my lord is an old man,

    shall I give myself to pleasure? 

    13And the Lord said to Abraham: Why did Sera laugh, saying: Shall I who am an old woman bear a child indeed ? 

    14Is there anything hard to God?

    according to appointment I will return to thee at this same time, life accompanying,

    and Sara shall have a son.

     

    Genesis 21:1And the Lord visited Sara,

    as he had promised:

    and fulfilled what he had spoken. 

    2And she conceived and bore a son in her old age,

    at the time that God had foretold her.

    I WILL NOT COMMENT AT ALL FOR NOW!

    IT IS UP TO YOU THIS TIME TO

    JUSTIFY THE TRUTH, OR ELSE

    YOUR LIES!

    WHICH EVER YOU PLEASE!

    I AM WAITING!

    MR.DISERTRUTH

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #946278
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Gene Balthrop
    If you don’t believe that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was for the forgiveness of sins, then don’t call yourself a Christian.

    Please read it again: Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    God bless

    #946279
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Continuing with the accusations of not understanding?!?! For 40 years I walked under the “christian banner”, read the bible, prayed, attended “church”, when the moment presented spoke on the “saving power” of the Jesus, did all the “christiany” things christians do. To tell me I “don’t understand” is pure foolishness; I understand all to well what is taught within the world of christianity and what I have discovered is there are no two religions that believe the same and each religion’s beliefs are the correct ones. Your faith is no different as you talk down to all who don’t see things your way.

    When I first joined this site, you and I where mostly in-agreement; and if I were to have stopped seeking answers to my questions, I would have stopped at your faith. But I didn’t stop seeking answers and because of this I’m a “lost soul” according to you. Wake up and explain how Isa 7:14 is about the birth of Jesus, explain how Jesus stumped the Pharisees when quoting Ps 110:1, explain why the church uses Zech 13:6 as a reference to Jesus, explain why in Isa 9:6-7 the verb tense was changed to a future tense when the translated Hebrew is in the past tense? Can you explain why Matthew used Jeconiah in Jesus’ lineage when God said he was considered childless or why Luke uses David’s son Nathan as the lineage to the Messiah when it was God who said the Messiah was to come thru Solomon? Can you explain how Jesus could be the Messiah when he isn’t the “seed” of David and Solomon, but was conceived of the spirit?

    I left christianity because they couldn’t answer these type of questions and the answers given resulted in more questions they couldn’t answer. It got to the point all the questions I asked started to anger a pastor and almost being kicked out of the church because I questioned doctrinal beliefs.

    Your avoidance to answer these questions speaks volumes. Unfortunately we are dealing with human nature and mankind does like their comfort zones as they settle into their cozy ruts, to never challenge the status quo. Will you continue brush off these questions as none issues, will you look into what is being asked, or will you spend your life following what you have been told is truth?

    #946280
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Me: We cannot forget it was the spirit is who impregnated Mary and NOT of the seed of David. Once again, you are justifying lies.

    You: SO IS THAT HOW YOU BELIEVE IN A GOD WHO IS OMNIPOTENT???

    Me: No!! I believe the words God spoke to David, when HE said David’s lineage will continue through Solomon. HIS greatness have nothing to do with anything here.

     

    You: YOU CAN REMAIN SILENT AS MUCH AS JODI DID. THAT JUSTIFIES MY TRUTH!

    Me: Taunting?!?! Have you once again reverted to six year old playground antics?!? Your “right” because I haven’t given you a response? My “silence” has to do with time and whether I want to give you any of it. I’m still waiting for you to prove the lineage accounts given by Matthew and Luke are valid. One says Jesus comes through a man whom God said is childless in relation to David’s throne and the other uses Nathan to get to Jesus, when the Messiah was to be from the lineage of Solomon. Tik Tok, still waiting for an answer to how Jesus could possibly be the Messiah when he doesn’t fulfill the simple requirements of being of the seed (descendent) of David!!

    You then bring up Abraham and Sarah and presume in Gen 21:1 (which has nothing to do with the Messiah) that God was the one who impregnated Sarah; you really need to spend more time in the Tanakh verse inside your corrupt, delusional, “spiritual” mind. You will recall in chapter 18 Sarah was told she would bare a son a year from then and when we arrive at chapter 21 it states God fulfilled his promise and she conceived and bore a son to Abraham at the appointed time. It would seem it is you who doesna’t believe in God’s power to open the womb of a barren woman. Kind of like HE did for Rachael and Hagar.

    Then you have the gall to claim what I have been saying is a lie?!?!? Before you make such a foolish claim, verify what I have said and prove me wrong! Your proof will be in the Tanakh (that portion of the bible you claim is obsolete) and not the Greek Testament.

    #946281
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Luke 10:16 Jesus said: …he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.

    #946282
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You:You then bring up Abraham and Sarah and presume in Gen 21:1 (which has nothing to do with the Messiah) 

    MUSTN’T THE JEWISH MESSIAH BE A SON OF ABRAHAM???

     

     It would seem it is you who doesna’t believe in God’s power to open the womb of a barren woman.

    Kind of like HE did for Rachael and Hagar.

    Me: Just read what I suggested please again:

     

    NOW TELL ME!

    IS ISAAC BORN THROUGH NORMAL HUMAN INTERCOURSE,….

    AGAIN I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN JEWISH LITERATURE IN GENERAL, NOT JUST SCRIPTURE OR IF YOU PREFER ONLY SCRIPTURE!

    NOW PLEASE JUST LEAVE OUT YOUR COMMENTS FOR A WHILE AND

    PRODUCE THE RELATIVE SCRIPTURE CONCERNING

    HAGAR AND RACHAEL SO WE CAN VERIFY THE TRUTH.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946285
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Me: You then bring up Abraham and Sarah and presume in Gen 21:1 (which has nothing to do with the Messiah)

    You: MUSTN’T THE JEWISH MESSIAH BE A SON OF ABRAHAM???

    Me: Was the promise given to Abraham the Messiah would come from him? NO! However, technically the Messiah would have to be a “son” of Abraham as he is the father of the nation of Israel and the Messiah would be Jewish, from the tribe of Judah, AND specifically from the lineage of David and Solomon. It sounds like your question is a deflection; answering a question with a question.

    The question still stands, how can Jesus be the messiah when his biological father isn’t of the line of David, the line of Solomon, or a descendant of Abraham; when Jesus’ “father” is the spirit?

     

    You: IS ISAAC BORN THROUGH NORMAL HUMAN INTERCOURSE

    Me: DUH!!!! Did you not learn about “the birds and the bees”? Do you not know how babies are made? Why do you keep placing the Creator of all on the same level as fake Greek and Roman gods who impregnate mortal women. Again read chapter 18 and 21 of Genesis and let your mind figure it out…it’s not that hard. Wait, you have yet to prove that it was the spirit of God who impregnated Sarah; where is the scriptural evidence it wasn’t Abraham who got Sarah pregnant. After all, didn’t Abraham copulate with Hagar at the “ripe old age” of 86, baring him a son, Ishmael? So Abraham didn’t have a problem making babies or are you saying Isaac is a demigod?

     

    You: PRODUCE THE RELATIVE SCRIPTURE CONCERNING HAGAR AND RACHAEL SO WE CAN VERIFY THE TRUTH.

    Me: We have a mistake, NOT Hagar but Hannah and Rachel are who were meant. A simple search would provide you the answer you are looking for, but that would mean having to open that obsolete half of the bible. Since it’s to difficult to look for yourself, read Genesis 30 for Rachel and I Samuel 1 for Hannah. Both barren and God opened each of their wombs so they would conceive. How are you incapable of searching this yourself?!? Do you need everything spoon feed? Looking things up is called studying and it helps you learn new things you didn’t know before. Also, will you actually go “verify” what is said or just say you will?

     

    Haven’t forgotten, still waiting for how Jesus, conceived of the spirit, could possibly be the Messiah when he doesn’t fulfill the simple requirement of being of the seed (biological descendent) of David. I know, my questions are meant to be ignored while you get to demand yours be answered and all MUST comply or else; then again, we know why none will answer my questions, don’t we…christianity falls apart.

    #946286
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……you said….> “For 40 years I walked under the “christian banner”, read the bible, prayed, attended “church”, when the moment presented spoke on the “saving power” of the Jesus, did all the “christiany” things christians do. To tell me I “don’t understand” is pure foolishness; I understand all to well what is taught within the world of christianity and what I have discovered is there are no two religions that believe the same and each religion’s beliefs are the correct ones. Your faith is no different as you talk down to all who don’t see things your way.”

    So you admit it took you “40 years” to figure out modern Christianity has many errors.  What took you so long?, I know there were many things wrong with what they were saying over 50 years ago. When I was in my twenties I started a serious search of scriptures, and by the time I was in my thirties I found “many things” , they were saying was wrong . It’s been over 50 years that I haven’t been associated with any church .  What I have found out in over 50 years, is that there is both truth and lies in modern religious teaching , nearly every church has some truth in them and also some lies too. What you have done is like a person who is throwing out the baby with the wash,   which shows  me you have lost your way if you truly ever had it.

    IF you think Jesus isn’t the true Messiah then you have completely missed the mark,  even the Jews know when the Messiah was to be born , it’s clearly written in scriptures, the time of his “birth”.  Read what Daniel said, he prophesied the time of his birth, and his death.  Even a loose cannon like yourself should be able to understand it.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

    #946287
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @GeneBalthrop

    You said to DT: Even a loose cannon like yourself should be able to understand it.

    Me: Good. But even you can’t understand the simple biblical fact that Jesus Christ died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3).

    Don’t throw bricks when you live in a glass house…

    #946288
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: IF you think Jesus isn’t the true Messiah then you have completely missed the mark.

    Me: Explain. I have presented information you flat out reject or just ignore because it doesn’t align with what you believe. You refuse to answer my questions concerning the validity of Jesus being the messiah.

     

    You: even the Jews know when the Messiah was to be born, it’s clearly written in scriptures, the time of his “birth.” Read what Daniel said, he prophesied the time of his birth, and his death.

    Me: Give references, explain what they are saying, and let’s discuss them.

     

    You: So you admit it took you “40 years” to figure out modern Christianity has many errors. What took you so long?

    Me: You make it sound like a bad thing.

     

    You: I know there were many things wrong with what they were saying over 50 years ago.

    Me: Yet you still accept lies withing the pages of the NT as truth; the book of Hebrews is filled with them, but it’s okay; Paul taught against God’s commands, also okay. Personally, I wouldn’t be to proud of questioning the church for over 50 years when you still accept the NT as truth; once I started digging, it only took me a few months to figure out the NT isn’t God “inspired” word. If the NT was God inspired, why do churches argue over what it says, why is there no agreement with what it says, and why does every denomination have their own interpretation of what the passages say? If the words came from God, EVERYONE would understand it the same! Wakey, wakey; rise and shining…

    #946290
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    What of the following did Jesus fulfill? Why do I reject Jesus as the messiah (the anointed one)? If you claim this will happen when Jesus returns, please tell me where God said the messiah was to come twice. Don’t think I’ve “missed” any “mark.”

    First of all, he must be Jewish 
    “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

    He must be a member of the tribe of Judah
    “The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10)

    To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

    He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son
    “And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)

    The genealogy of Joseph states he is not the biological father of Jesus. The other genealogy is through Nathan and not Solomon.

    He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel 
    “And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

    Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus? What does christianity teach, that failure to believe in the Jesus condemns you to hell.

    He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem 
    “…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)

    At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

    He will rule at a time of world-wide peace 
    “…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)

    Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

     He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments 

    “My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

    The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

    He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d 
    “And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)

    there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold. In christianity it is taught there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; believe in the trinity or not, you believe in the trinity.

    #946291
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Aren’t you afraid of Hell?
    You may think that Hell will be just Annihilation.
    Don’t count on it…Matthew 25:46
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    #946292
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Did you noticed “hell” (a place of damnation/eternal torment) isn’t mentioned in the Tanakh (aka OT)? Do I “fear” Hell as understood by modern religion, NO. You obviously read my comment to Gene, did Jesus fulfill all these requirements? Can Jesus be the “messiah” if one of these requirements hasn’t been fulfilled? Think my friend, do you believe what man has told you to believe or do you believe what God has said?

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