John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

  • This topic has 25,990 replies, 117 voices, and was last updated 25 minutes ago by LU.
Viewing 20 posts - 25,521 through 25,540 (of 25,991 total)
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  • #946217
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said…..”Me: I’m sorry your statement really ticks me off as you doubled down on the 3:00pm time frame, insisting that is when Jesus was raised up; and you now “meant to say” it was really “at sunset”?!?!?!?? In all the places I have traveled around the world 3:00pm and sunset have never been the same, including Israel. Is your new “claim” so you can still say it was Saturday that Jesus rose?”

    Yes I said I was mistaken, what I should have said Jesus was “raised” or he “Arose” , at sunset Saturday evening , which would have been a completion  of three day and three nights, in the tomb. He did not “rise” from his grave on Sunday “morning “.  He was already “RISEN” , WHICH IS A “PAST-TENSE” WORD.  Nowhere in scripture does it say he “rose” on Sunday morning.  You force the text to say that by changing the word tense, and leaving out the rest of the sentence.

    So you see you are wrong again , just like you are about so many other things you tell us.  Face it DT, you’re just stumbling around in your own ignorance, and rejecting the truth.  Trying to make Paul, Jesus, and the whole New Testament out to be a LIE,  IS YOUR DOWNFALL.  The New Testament understood properly, completely agrees with the Old Testament,  You,  not understanding that, is your downfall, you’re huckleberry, not ours.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

    #946218
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    Testing; one, two

    #946219
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    That test post went thru, but my reply to Gene I receive a message that my response was “a potentially unsafe operation has been detected in your request to this site”

    So much for being a place to freely express one’s thoughts. All done! Good luck to all and enjoy your religion.

    #946220
    Berean
    Participant

     

    @DT

    You don’t think you should consider or reconsider the importance
    of the statutes which God had ordained for the forgiveness of sins with a broken heart (ps 51:16-19)

    How do you explain the significance of the shedding of blood from pure animal sacrifices?

    There is definitely A REASON FOR THIS.
    YOU CAN’T ESCAPE THIS IN THE FIRST TESTAMENT.

     

    It came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering. Genesis 4:3-5.

    [4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testing of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh

    ps.51
    For thou desirest our sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
    [17] The sacrifices of God are 👉 a broken spirit: 👉a broken and a contrite heart, 👈O God, thou wilt not despise.
    [18] Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
    [19] 👉Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, 👈with burnt offering 👈and whole burnt offering:👈 then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

    🙏

    #946221
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @ Berean

    I think your post-946212 was meant for DT?
    You said DD.

    God bless

    #946222
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: Good luck to all and enjoy your religion.

    Me: “Your arrogance just sucked all the oxygen out of the room to inflate your ego.”
    ― Tijan, A Whole New Crowd

    #946223
    Berean
    Participant

    @DD

    YOU

    I think your post-946212 was meant for DT?
    You said DD

    Me

    You are right, sorry

    Besides, DT took it for himself

    God bless

    #946224
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: We cannot forget it was the spirit is who impregnated Mary and NOT of the seed of David. Once again, you are justifying lies.

    Me: Let’s consider FOR THE TIME BEING, the discussion of Jesus’ genealogy BETWEEN US, as the SON OF MAN, ENDED IN A STALEMATE.

    THUS FOR A CHANGE, I AM TACKLING THIS PROCESS, AS YOU HINTED OUT, FROM GOD’S SPIRIT PERSPECTIVE, MY SPECIALITY THANKS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT,  ALWAYS THOUGH, TO A CERTAIN LIMIT, AS  I’M AFRAID YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY BLIND, FOCUSSED ONLY ON THE CARNAL PROCESS OF THE JEWISH MESSIAH, WITH EVERY RESPECT.

    NOW both Matthew and Luke genealogies used the first patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    Exodus 3:6 And he said: I am the God of thy father,

    the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

    15  And God said again to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel:

    The Lord God of your fathers,

    the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,

    hath sent me to you: This is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    I AM NOT GOING TO TACKLE THE TRINITY CONCEPT AT ALL, BUT IN THE ABOVE IT IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL THAT GOD IS

    BOTH ONE GOD, DEFINITELY SPIRIT: “The Lord God of your fathers,” AND ALSO

    THREE AGAIN, DEFINITELY PHYSICAL! PERSONIFIED IN

    ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB! 

    AT LEAST AS I SAID, THE WAY I SEE THINGS: SPIRITUAL!!!

    NOW, I BELIEVE YOU ARE MORE FAMILIAR AND MATURE WITH JEWISH LITERATURE IN GENERAL, AGAIN TO KEEP REMINDING YOU, FOCUSSED ONLY ON THE CARNAL SIDE OF THINGS, CARNALLY MINDED!!!

    NOW TELL ME!

    IS ISAAC BORN THROUGH NORMAL HUMAN INTERCOURSE, IN THE THOSE DAYS, SATANIC? 

    AGAIN I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN JEWISH LITERATURE IN GENERAL, NOT JUST SCRIPTURE OR IF YOU PREFER ONLY SCRIPTURE!

    ONE MORE QUESTION!

    IS THE JEWISH MESSIAH AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING, AND DIFFERENT IN ANY WAY, OR ALSO 

    THE SON OF GOD, LIKE JESUS IS?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946252
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    Though I did reply to you with a long post on FEBRUARY 28, 2024 AT 4:51 AM#946084

    I figured I would reply again to what you said below and condense my position.

    YOU:

    The WORD was not  the GOD(THE FATHER)

    THE Word was WITH THE GOD

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    ME: 

    Reading John 1:1-2 I see there are 2 different beginnings being referred to and as you move through the chapter the content directly supports exactly that.

    There are a number of scriptures throughout the NT that speak to Jesus’s anointing of the Spirit and him being sent to preach God’s word through the Spirit dwelling in him as a BEGINNING.

    John 1:1 is speaking to the BEGINNING of the gospel, to which those who believe are saved.

    Berean, some facts for you to ponder,

    The WORD of God (prophecy) was that He would give His Spirit to abode in a Son of Man who He would then send out to preach the gospel and fulfill God’s covenant. God would hold his hand and keep him, not allowing him to fail in that all God commands of him.

    The WORD of God (prophecy) was that He would give mankind a new heart and place His Spirit in them and cause them to walk in all His ways.

    The WORD of God that Jesus preached was that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God.

    The WORD of God that Jesus preached was that we would be baptized as he was baptized and that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of, but to sit on the right or left of Jesus in the kingdom is up to the Father.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set* the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    You see Berean, that which occurred to Jesus at the river Jordan and again when he rose from the dead, receiving “the PROMISED Spirit”/ “on this day I have begotten thee” is what we are promised as well and this all was God’s WORD from the beginning and is the reason God had created all things in the first place. We are heirs of God, JOINT HEIRS with the ANOINTED SON OF MAN. 

    The WORD is the PROMISED SPIRIT such was in the beginning with God when He created all things.

    This WORD was fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth which was the beginning of the WORD being preached, the beginning of the LIGHT being sent. The WORDS that Jesus spoke “they were Spirit and they were life”, those that believed in him, that he was the fulfillment of Isaiah 42, 61, 53, the fulfillment of the WORD and believed on his WORD that one could drink of the cup that he drinks of and be born of the Spirit and enter into God’s kingdom, would receive that very promise, they too would become Sons of God.

    Berean “the WORD” is not a pre-existing Jesus existing before and speaking creation into existence. “The WORD” is God’s Spirit with the promise that it will abode in man.

    When you think of the message of the entire bible, when you think of the message of the gospel and Jesus’s clear words it’s all about how God promised eternal life even before the world began and to obtain eternal life you must have God’s Spirit dwelling in you, as the fruit thereof is in all goodness righteousness and truth, without the Spirit we are dead.

    #946253
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,
    You: Berean

     “the WORD” is not a pre-existing Jesus
     

    existing before and speaking creation into existence.

    “The WORD” is God’s Spirit with the promise that it will 

    abode in man.

    ME: IN THE ABOVE Jodi, UNAWARE OF, YOU ARE NOT ONLY CONTRADICTING YOURSELF, BUT YOU ALSO ARE SAYING THINGS, WHILE IN THE SAME TIME, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN TO THE EXTENT THAT

    YOU ARE ADMITTING WHAT YOU DENY!

    THE TRUTH!

    More to come!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #946254
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……All those who have the Spirit of truth abiding in them, know the sound of  truth when they hear it,  your last post was Solid “Truth”,  how simple, how exact, how sound in every way.  It’s sad to see some here who can’t understand that “Truth”, that you have so eloquently explained.

    The sound from the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH” , IS SO PLEASANT, to a old man like me.

    Have you ever considered writing pamphlets or articles on, JOHN 1;1 who is the WORD.,  If you would,  I would be more the willing to help pay for the costs,  let me know if you want to.

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene

    #946255
    Jodi
    Participant

    Thank you Gene and I believe I am getting there, feeling more ready to share out more publicly, in one way or another, what the sum of all scripture truly reveals regarding God and His plan for mankind, with Jesus as a firstborn of many brethren.

    #946256
    Jodi
    Participant

    Carmel, I would bet that the only way that YOU SEE that I am contradicting myself or that YOU SEE that I am admitting what I deny, is if you are taking what I have said and are applying it to what YOU further believe and then pretend that I believe that too.

    Do you get that Carmel?

    I hope that you do realize that the ONLY WAY you can legitimately prove your accusation is to speak directly to that which I further believe where you must leave out entirely that which you believe.

    I most certainly welcome you to try and stand by your accusation through applying it directly to that which I further believe. ONLY THEN can you prove that I am contradicting myself or that I am admitting to what I deny.

    #946257
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    To ALL, specifically Gene,

    You: Nowhere in scripture does it say he “rose” on Sunday morning. You force the text to say that by changing the word tense, and leaving out the rest of the sentence.

    Me: REALLY!!! I’m “forcing” this “tense change.” No, I can read! Can you? Everyone of these translations states Jesus “rose” early on the first day of the week; it is you who fails to understand this phrase “when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week” actually says. It’s written in the “past tense” because the event happened prior to Mary showing up at the tomb. How do you not understand this?!?!!? But your right, you caught me because I was involved in the writing of nine different bible translation and “forced” each of them to change the tense of this passage! Or maybe, it’s a false teaching within your faith you can’t let go of because it turns your religion into a lie.

    New International Version

    When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

    New Living Translation

    After Jesus rose from the dead early on Sunday morning, the first person who saw him was Mary Magdalene, the woman from whom he had cast out seven demons.

    English Standard Version

    Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

    New King James Version

    Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons.

     

    You: Face it DT, you’re just stumbling around in your own ignorance, and rejecting the truth.

    Me: Then why are you afraid to answer questions and keep deflecting away from them? I present them once again:

    Why is Psalm 16:10 suppose to be a prophecy pointing to Jesus; when it’s a Psalm where David describes God as his “source” for everything in life and in death?

    How did Jesus “stump” the Pharisees when he quoted Psalm 110:1? A Psalm that is written to and not written by David.

    Why is Isa 7:14 being taught every year as being a prophecy of Jesus’ birth? When it’s really a prophecy directed at King Ahaz.

    Why does the KJV change the verb tenses of Isa 9:6-7 to a future tense when they are actually in the past?

    Verses 1-18 of Ps 22 is David crying out to God because of his enemies; but verse 16 is a reference to Jesus. How?! Sounds like cherry picking!

    Let’s add Zech 13:6 to the list and explain how this is a reference to Jesus; when this section is speaking of false prophets?

    Gene, before you accuse me of “stumbling around in ignorance”, answer all the above questions! If you can’t, which of us are “stumbling”?

    #946258
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Happy Easter!

    #946259
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Scripture saying that Jesus “rose early on the first day of the week” does not speak to him rising from the dead on that day, he had already risen from the dead on the Sabbath. That passage speaks to him having risen from where he had been resting as other scriptures use that term exactly in that same manner.

    But what I would like to focus on is the scripture that speaks to Jesus being three days and three nights “in the heart of the earth”.

    Matthew 12:4040 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    The “heart of the earth” DOES NOT MEAN THE GRAVE but most all folks believe so and then do calculation in total error! Just think about the wording for a minute, how would “the HEART of the earth” actually represent the place of death? The HEART of the earth represents the heart of the people upon the earth as scriptures within Psalms and Isaiah both speak to.

    When you read through the gospels you will also notice scripture speak of God’s protection over Jesus as men were wanting and seeking to kill him from the beginning, but nothing would come to fruition as God was protecting Jesus from the heart of the earth. The moment it was time, God took away his protection and allowed the heart of the earth, the heart of man to do as it willed.

    Tuesday evening of the 12th Jesus tells his disciples that in two days would be the Passover and he would be handed over to be crucified. Jesus is betrayed by Judas that evening for 30 pieces of silver where Judas sought from that time on the opportunity to hand Jesus over.  Jesus entered into the heart of the earth! Jesus is anointed with fragrant oil for his burial that evening. First Evening

    Wednesday the 13th. First Day

    Wednesday evening of the 13th. Second Evening

    Thursday the 14th. Second Day

    Thursday afternoon of 14th, Jesus keeps the Passover meal, Jesus is handed over due to the betrayal by Judas on Tuesday evening.  Third Evening

    Friday, Day of the 15th Jesus is crucified and dies at 3 pm. and is placed in the tomb. Third Day

    Friday evening of the 15th where 3 Days and 3 Nights have passed! Jesus is raised from the dead on Friday during the Sabbath where his flesh most certainly did not have the time to decay just as God had promised!

    When the guards sealed the tomb the next day he had already risen and left.

    Just as Jonah suffered in the whale, Jesus suffered in the heart of the earth, the heart of the people as he was betrayed and then was spit on, mocked, beaten and crucified.

    #946260
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    The only thing in my last post that really matters are the last six questions that have been asked.

    What you wrote doesn’t align with what gospels say.

    #946261
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Was Jesus crucified on Wednesday or Friday?

    If you want/if anyone wants a complete study on the subject go to:
    https://www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com/

    God bless

    #946262
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    John 1:4 speaking about the Word:
    In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    John 5:26
    For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    Jesus is the Word. He has life in HIMSELF.

    #946263
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Carmel, I would bet that the only way that YOU SEE that I am contradicting myself or that YOU SEE that I am admitting what I deny, is if you are taking what I have said and are applying it to what YOU further believe and then pretend that I believe that too.

    Me: Jodi, read again what you said:

    “the WORD” is not a pre-existing Jesus

    EXISTING BEFORE AND SPEAKING CREATION INTO EXISTENCE.

    Colossians 1:15 For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him.

    16 And he is before all,

     and by him all things consist.

    Jodi, just explain what the above scripture tells you

    IN PLAIN CLEAR ENGLISH BLACK ON WHITE!

    You: “The WORD” is God’s Spirit…..

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven.

    John 6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up

    where he was before?

    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth:

    the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you,

    are spirit and life.

    YES Jodi, JESUS IS  “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND A PRE-EXISTED SPIRIT!

    Acts 16:7 says, “When they had come down to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, and the

    Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.”

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by THE WORD of his power, …..

    John14: 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,

    he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10Do you not believe,

    that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    John10:30 I and the Father are one.

    THE FATHER IS A SPIRIT, OR TO BE MORE PRECISE THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER IS A SPIRIT, THUS

    JESUS IS ALSO A SPIRIT PROCEEDED AND CAME FORTH OF THE FATHER!

    THAT’S WHY HE IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER. Hebrews 1:3 ABOVE

    John 8:42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me.

    For from God I proceeded, and came;

    for I came not of myself, but he sent me:

    John 16: 28 I came forth from the Father,

    and am come into the world: again I leave the world,

    and I go to the Father.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

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