John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,501 through 25,520 (of 25,991 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #946194
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    King James Bible

    Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

    Let’s analyze this wording, it won’t take much because all you need is a child like level of understanding to comprehend what is written. It says “when Jesus was risen”; when was Jesus risen, “early on the first day of the week.” There is no comma or other punctuation to cause you to pause or to break this phrase into multiple parts; it is a single phrase that conveys one simple thought – on the first day of the week Jesus was risen.

    Face it Gene, what you have been taught is a lie; Jesus wasn’t raised up Saturday afternoon. He would have been raised up between Saturday sunset and Sunday sunrise. Believe what you wish.

    Why won’t you comment on Psalm 16:10 and the churches false teaching of it being prophecy pointing to Jesus, or how Psalm 110:1 “stumped” the Pharisees, or Isa 7:14 being a supposed prophecy of Jesus’ birth, or why the verb tenses are changed to future tense in Isa 9:6-7? The list of corrupt teachings goes on and the modern church today just accepts what they have been told is truth and never verifies what they are being taught, they just “believe”; the reason why there are so many religions today. Every faith is another faith claiming how right they are and how wrong the others are; but none ever verifying why they believe, what they believe.

    #946195
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Since Jodi’s post is “most excellent” (Bill, Ted is that you?!?!)

    Maybe you can tell me what it means to be “circumcised of the heart” and why in Ezek 44:9 Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Every foreigner uncircumcised of heart and uncircumcised of flesh shall not come into my sanctuary—not any of the foreigners who are in the midst of the Israelites.” If circumcision means nothing, why does God say no one will be allowed into HIS sanctuary if they aren’t circumcised of both the heart and flesh once the third temple is built? Paul teaches against God!

    #946196
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Gene

    DT is right about the day of Christ’s resurrection.
    If you want/if anyone wants a complete study on the subject go to:
    https://www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com/

    God bless

    #946197
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You are a liar.
    The Suffering Servant pictured in Isaiah 53 is a Sin-bearer.
    Only Jesus the Messiah is ‘the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world.’

    #946198
    Berean
    Participant

    SO TRUE DD

    #946199
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    What an intellectual response to questions asked in post# 946186. You really don’t know how to respond; except with what you have been told to believe and even then your grasping at thin air, you believe something you can’t explain.

    Still need to know who is speaking where in this dialog and what pronouns reference who. Lead me; bring me “back to the fold”! Explain the chapter so I can understand what’s really happening. Something tells me you can’t and all you have is your “I Believe Button.”

    You: Only Jesus the Messiah is ‘the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world.’

    Me: show me where in the Tanakh the Messiah was called the “lamb of God”, how belief in the Messiah would save someone, and where a man could take the sins of the world away.

    Danny, your none answers are actually revealing answers that show you don’t know why you believe what you believe. Before you call me a liar, I would recommend you back up your claim with scripture and not churchy responses that cannot be proved. If you aren’t willing to back up your belief, shhhhhh; your religion will go on without me.

    #946200
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT

    …..he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

     

    Who do you think is the “he”?

     

     

     

     

     

    #946201
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: Me: Lineage ran through the father and NOT the mother.

    The mother has NOTHING to do with lineage,

    Me: NOT QUITE PRECISE:

    Luke gives the name Heli (the father of Mary) but then doesn’t list Mary but mentions Joseph. Why?

    LET’S SEE HOW VITAL THE WOMAN IS, CONCERNING INHERITANCES!

    Heli had no sons!

    But according to the Law of Moses,

    ESTABLISHED BY GOD,

    when there were no sons to preserve the inheritance, the husband (son-in-law) would become the son upon marriage to keep up the family name. Therefore,

    Joseph, THE MAN, ON MARRYING MARY, THE WOMAN!!!

    became the legal son of Heli according to the Law of Moses AGAIN

    ESTABLISHED BY GOD ALL-KNOWING,

    and, therefore,

    could now be legally included in the genealogy!

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT NOTHING TO DO WITH JECONIAH AT ALL ANYMORE!!! NO?

    THUS THANKS TO MARY  “THE WOMAN” BEING IN THE LINEAGE OF DAVID,

    JESUS IS BOTH THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN;

    UNIQUE WITHOUT THE BLOOD OF HIS SUPPOSED FATHER  JOSEPH CONTAMINATED WITH THE BLOOD OF JECONIAH, CURSED BY GOD HIMSELF!

    ALL POSSIBLE FOR GOD.

    JESUS IS THE MESSIAH AND KING BOTH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH!  

    GOD AND FATHER OF THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IN 

    ONE SAME DIVINE BLOOD!

    THIS MY FLESH IT IS GIVEN FOR YOU….

    Isaiah 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us,

    and the government is upon his shoulder:

    and his name shall be called,

    Wonderful, Counsellor,

    God the Mighty,

    the Father of the world to come,

    the Prince of Peace.

    THE MAN “JOSEPH” AND THE MAN JECONIAH  WERE BOTH PRESENT AND INEXISTENCE ON JESUS’ BIRTH, ESPECIALLY 

    IN THE GENEALOGY OF JESUS!

    GOD IS A PERFECT PARADOX!

    Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter?

    for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth:

    A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #946202
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Who do you think the “our” is in verse one and what message are they speaking that is so unbelievable? Who is speaking here? Please don’t stop at one verse, explain them all and what’s happening. Singling out a few verses and saying it’s Jesus is nonsensical and proves nothing but cherry picking, place all the verses in context and explain what they mean. The same thing I asked you to do months ago before you ran from it.

    #946203
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: “when there were no sons to preserve the inheritance, the husband (son-in-law) would become the son upon marriage to keep up the family name.”

    Me: I haven’t found this verse that says when marrying the daughter of a son less man the man being married becomes the “son” of that man. The only thing I found was when a man only has daughters dies, the inheritance would go to the daughter and she was to only marry into the tribe of their father so the inheritance would stay with the tribe and not transfer to another tribe. What verse are you citing?

    Not that having that verse will change anything because Luke has Jesus’ lineage going back to David thru his son Nathan. This is a HUGE problem because in I Chron 22:7-10:

    “David said to Solomon his son, “I myself had in my heart to build a house for the name of Yahweh my God,

    8 but it happened that the word of Yahweh came over me, saying, ‘You have shed much blood and have made much war; you shall not build a house for my name because you have shed much blood upon the ground before me.

    9 Behold, a son shall be born to you; he himself will be a man of rest, and I will give rest to him from all his enemies all around, for his name will be Solomon, and peace and quietness I will give to Israel in his days.

    10 He himself will build a house for my name, and he himself will be to me a son, and I will be to him as a father, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’

    There’s a few things going on in this verse, the important part is verses 9-10; we find out it will be Solomon who will build the temple, it will be Solomon who will be a son to God and God a father to him, AND (proving the lie of Luke’s genealogy) it is thru Solomon’s the throne is established forever. Did you read anything about Nathan? The Messiah is to come from the lineage of David and Solomon; Nathan is Solomon’s brother. Once again another lie of the NT is exposed; how many lies can there be in the “infallible word of God” before it’s not considered the “word of God”, let alone “infallible?

    I’ll save the butchering of Isa 9:6 for another day.

    #946204
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……You are right about where I said “Jesus was resurrected on Saturday afternoon” , what I meant to say was he was resurrected Saturday evening at sunset, my mistake, but non the less he was not resurrected on Sunday morning,  as you falsely present it.  You very clearly left out the rest of the sentence,  to conceal the fact that,  that sentence was addressing, that MARY on the first day of the week was  THE FIRST ONE TO SEE HIM. “AFTER HE WAS “RISEN”,  a (pas-tense) word.  The sentence structure was not addressing the time of his resurrection, at all, but the  one who seen him “AFTER”.  he was “RISEN” and the time she saw him.

    Jesus was cut off in the Midwest of the week , (Wednesday around 3:00 PM), was placed in the tomb at sundown Wednesday, was in the grave all of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday , he arose Saturday after sunset, which completed three days and three nights, being in the grave.

    DT, technically you could say he arose on Sunday, but not in the morning it was the night before the morning. When Mary saw him early Sunday morning Jesus was already “RISEN” , Just as it says.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

    #946205
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: I would recommend you back up your claim with scripture

    Me: Isaiah 53:12 …he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    #946206
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Psalm 22:16

    For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

    ISAIAH 53 :5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Zechariah 13:6“

    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.”

    John 1:11 He came unto his own,and his own received him not.

    But

    👇

    as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Amen!

     

    #946207
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….A most “excellent ” post.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……..gene

    #946208
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: “I meant to say was he was resurrected Saturday evening at sunset”

    Me: I’m sorry your statement really ticks me off as you doubled down on the 3:00pm time frame, insisting that is when Jesus was raised up; and you now “meant to say” it was really “at sunset”?!?!?!?? In all the places I have traveled around the world 3:00pm and sunset have never been the same, including Israel. Is your new “claim” so you can still say it was Saturday that Jesus rose? The wording of Mark is “he was risen early on the first day” means he was risen on the first day of the week, which would have been AFTER sunset on the last day of the week. Either Mark’s a liar or your religion is; both cannot be right. To say Jesus rose on “Saturday” is our modern time frame and not the 1st centuries. Believe a lie or believe the words written; your choice. I don’t have time to argue the stupidity of this; believe what you are told to believe, but stop wasting time. This is the least of your worries as you defend this so called infallible book. Spend your time more wisely and answer these questions:

    Why is Psalm 16:10 suppose to be a prophecy pointing to Jesus; when it’s a Psalm where David describes God as his “source” for everything in life and in death.

    How did Jesus “stump” the Pharisees when he quoted Psalm 110:1? A Psalm that is written to and not written by David.

    Why is Isa 7:14 being taught every year as being a prophecy of Jesus’ birth? When it’s really a prophecy directed at King Ahaz.

    Why does the KJV change the verb tenses of Isa 9:6-7 to a future tense when they are actually in the past?

    Verses 1-18 of Ps 22 is David crying out to God because of his enemies; but verse 16 is a reference to Jesus. How?! Sounds like cherry picking!

    How many lies and how much deception can there be in the NT before it’s not the “word of God”?

    #946209
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Me: “when there were no sons to preserve the inheritance, the husband (son-in-law) would become the son upon marriage to keep up the family name.”

    You: I haven’t found this verse that says when marrying the daughter of a son less man the man being married becomes

    the “son” of that man…..

     ME: Back to square one!

    Luke is following the Hebraic, traditional form of genealogies by listing only the male names in which Mary is designated by

    her husband’s name.

    Thus Joseph to Heli is

    HIS SON-IN-LAW

    You: What verse are you citing?

    1 Samuel 24:16  And when David had made an end of speaking these words to Saul, Saul said: Is this thy voice, MY SON DAVID…..

    1 Samuel 26:17 And Saul knew David’s voice, and said:

    Is this thy voice, MY SON DAVID? 

    DAVID IN THE ABOVE BECAME THE SON OF SAUL ONCE HE MARRIED SAUL’S DAUGHTER MICHOL.

    You: Not that having that verse will change anything because Luke has Jesus’ lineage going back to David through his son Nathan. This is a HUGE problem in I Chron 22:7-10:….

    the important part is verses 9-10; we find out it will be Solomon who will build the temple, it will be Solomon who will be a son to God and God a father to him,

     AND (proving the lie of Luke’s genealogy) it is through Solomon’s the throne is established forever.

    Did you read anything about Nathan? The Messiah is to come from the lineage of David and Solomon; Nathan is Solomon’s brother.

    Once again another lie of the NT is exposed; how many lies can there be in the “infallible word of God” before it’s not considered the

    “word of God”, let alone “infallible?

    Let start!

    Mary’s husband Joseph, who was Heli’s son-in-law,

    became Heli’s legal son to continue Heli’s family line.

    The point of all of this is that in the culture of ancient Israel, inheritance from father to son was so significant and essential that,

    for all legal intents and purposes,

     Jesus was Joseph’s son, even if He was not Joseph’s biological son.

    Then there’s also the case of a stepson who took on

     the LEGAL status of his stepfather.

    Hence: Jesus can be recognized as

     “Solomon’s son”

    through Jesus’ step-father, Joseph

    Matthew’s purpose is to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah. The Jews would have recognized from this genealogical list that Jesus had

    the LEGAL right to inherit the throne of David.

    Luke’s purpose was just to show from Mary’s genealogy that she came from the blood-line of David which showed that Jesus was a

    BLOOD-LINE descendant of David.

     

    The scepter and throne of David and Solomon, descendants of Judah, will come to the

    Messiah Jesus, who will rule and reign forever:

    Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not be taken away from Juda, nor a ruler from his thigh, till he come that is to be sent, and he shall be the expectation of nations.

    1 Kings 2:45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the Lord forever.

     Isaiah 9:7 His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and forever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    The scepter and throne are Jesus’ legal inheritance, through his earthly paternal lineage.

    But for YOU who has a problem with Jesus’ not being a biological descendant of Solomon, through Joseph,

    the scepter also is Jesus’ biological inheritance, since

    He is a direct descendant of King David,

     through his maternal lineage.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #946210
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You quote Ps 22:16 as “proof” to who the “our” is in Isa 53:1 and the “message” no one would believe?!?! That makes zero sense! Or were you just spouting off verses again without explanation?

    How exactly does Isa 53:5 explain the pronoun in verse one?

    You then quote Zech 13:6; recommend you read verses 1-5 to put 6 into perspective and how do you get the Jesus out of it.

    1 “ ‘On that day a well will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and from impurity.

    2 And then, on that day,’ declares Yahweh of hosts, ‘I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and also the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness I will banish from the land.

    3 And then, if anyone prophesies again, his father and his mother who bore him will say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of Yahweh!” And his father and his mother who bore him will pierce him through when he prophesies.

    4 And then on that day, each of the prophets will be ashamed because of his vision when he was prophesying, and they will not put on a cloak of hair in order to deceive,

    5 but he will say, “I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the soil, for a man has acquired me since my youth.”

    6 And someone shall say to him, “What are these wounds between your arms?” and he will say, “Those I have received in the house of the ones who love me.” ’ ”

    If you’re going to say verse 6 is about Jesus, it’s no wonder he was “beaten”; he was a false prophet. Are you saying Jesus was beaten by those who “loved” him or where his “friends”? Did your eyes open? This section is about false prophets; and those claiming to be prophets are going to be beaten by their family for being so. The scars will be a reminder the man was a false prophet and a sign to all who see him he was a false prophet. Put this into perspective, when Jesus revealed himself to the disciples didn’t he show them his scars as proof of who he was?

    #946211
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You can explain it away all you want, but the words written are the words written and you cannot change them. Luke claimed the lineage to Jesus came thru David’s son Nathan and not thru David’s son Solomon. That alone throws Luke’s account into the trash because Heli is a descendant of Nathan AND it was God who told David HE was establishing David’s throne thru his son Solomon. The Matthew account is thrown out because Jeconiah was counted as childless and the lineage thru him ended. Jesus, by the accounts of Luke and Matthew, fails to fulfill the promise given by God to David making both accounts lies AND Jesus not the Messiah.

    We cannot forget it was the spirit is who impregnated Mary and NOT of the seed of David. Once again, you are justifying lies.

     

    #946212
    Berean
    Participant

    @DD

    YOU

    JESUS 👎

    ME

    JESUS 👍

     

    #946216
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Wow! You can’t even defend what you believe! You remind me of a Jehovah’s Witness repeating what you have been told to say and anything beyond that, you’re lost. You can’t explain Isa 53 since all you know are a few verses you have been told mean the Jesus. You cited Ps 22:16, but are unable to explain the context of the chapter. I laughed a little when you quoted Zech 13:6 knowing it’s speaking of false prophets and you claim it’s about Jesus, how poetic.

    Like I have said, I have walked away from christianity; so your thumbs up and down is quite accurate. I don’t “need” the Jesus, my source of salvation is not through any man, it’s through and by HaShem (THE Name – aka God). If you wish to believe you’re a filthy, rotten sinner as Paul says you are and because you’re a filthy rag, you need a go between to get to HaShem, you are free to believe that. I know I am flawed, but I also know I am created in the image of HaShem, but if you wish to be recreated into an image Paul says you are, who am I to stop you. HaShem says to follow HIS commands and turn away from sin; HE never said anything about a “mediator.”

    Berean, I have never felt more free since casting off the shackles of christianity; and can only thank this website for causing me to dig deeper into what God has to say. Sorry, but if you place anything between you and HaShem, it’s idolatry and what did HaShem say about idol worship?

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