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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • March 3, 2024 at 3:26 am#946109
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You keep throwing Jesus at me like he is someone needed to get to God, what did God say? I have been told to repent, but no one can tell me of what.

    Jechoniah is listed in the lineage of Jesus (Matt 1:11), a name that God said “Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.” (Jer 22:30) Did you catch it? Jechoniah is in the lineage of Jesus, but God said none of his descendants will sit on David’s throne. Apparently the writer of Matthew didn’t read his OT. Another issue in Matthew is the reference to Isa 7:14 as being prophecy of the birth of Jesus; that is until one reads the entire chapter and finds out it has nothing to do with Jesus (more deception??). Let’s not forget who the writer of Matthew says Jesus’ “father” is – the “spirit.” Wouldn’t this make Jesus a demigod being conceived of God and woman? Since Jesus was conceived of the spirit, he couldn’t have come from the seed in the lineage of David. So much confusion or is it willful deception…

    Prove me wrong…

    March 3, 2024 at 6:50 am#946110
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: God didn’t create laws that man wasn’t able to do, man chose not to do them and has paid the consequence for that disobedience. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 30.

    ME:  Your above statement contradicts scripture of the OT and it preaches self-righteousness which then you make us into our own gods.

    Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    God created laws to reveal that man can do nothing of himself, we need God’s Spirit in us to be able to walk in all His ways.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. ..6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Others have argued the same as you on this forum before an accused my position as to make us into puppets, but that is not the case at all. Is not man that of a body and a mind whose thoughts and actions comes through constant input to which causes influence? Has man not proven that we are ignorant, gullible, superstitious creatures? God does as He wills and when He choosing a calling it can not be held back as the works of His Spirit supersedes over all other forces of influence. 

    Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

    Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

    Wisdom, truth, love, kindness, patience, self control, etc., ALL are the works of Gods Spirit.

    The entire world, every soul, would be exceedingly wicked and we’d all be nothing but ignorant superstitious idiots 24/7, living like cavemen, if it were not for God’s intervention and all the gifts that He has bestowed upon mankind. God is not just the source of righteousness but also that of wisdom and truth.

    God is the source, but if man had been filled with the Spirit from the beginning how would God go about proving that He was the source, might we have thought ourselves to be gods? How would God have built our trust our appreciation and love for Him?

    Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Paul tells us that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and that the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God, this is consistent with Ezekiel. Surely DT you don’t have a problem with Paul’s teaching on this?

    March 3, 2024 at 9:10 pm#946111
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi DT,

    You: Jechoniah is listed in the lineage of Jesus (Matt 1:11), a name that God said “Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.” (Jer 22:30) Did you catch it? Jechoniah is in the lineage of Jesus, but God said none of his descendants will sit on David’s throne.

    Apparently the writer of Matthew didn’t read his OT.

     

    DID YOU READ IT ALL?

    ME: FINE! READ HEREUNDER:

     

    The descendants of Jehoiachin the captive:

    — 1 Chronicles 3:17 The sons of Jechonias were Asir, Salathiel, 18Melchiram, Phadaia, Senneser and Jecemia, Sama, and Nadabia. 19Of Phadaia were born Zorobabel and Semei. Zorobabel beget Mosollam, Hananias, and Salomith their sister: 20Hasaba also, and Ohol, and Barachias, and Hasadias, Josabhesed, five. 21And the son of Hananias was Phaltias the father of Jeseias, whose son was Raphaia. And his son was Arnan, of whom was born Obdia, whose son was Sechenias. 22The son of Sechenias, was Semeia, whose sons were Hattus, and Jegaal, and Baria, and Naaria, and Saphat, six in number. 23The sons of Naaria, Elioenai, and Ezechias, and Ezricam, three. 24The sons of Elioenai, Oduia, and Eliasub, and Pheleia, and Accub, and Johanan, and Dalaia, and Anani, seven.

     

    — 2 Kings 25:27

    And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Joachin king of Juda, in the twelfth month the seven and twentieth day of the month: Evilmerodach king of Babylon, in the year that he began to reign, lifted up the head of Joachin king of Juda out of prison. 28And he spoke kindly to him: and he set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon. 29And he changed his garments which he had in prison, and he ate bread always before him, all the days of his life. 30And he appointed him a continual allowance, which was also given him by the king day by day, all the days of his life.

     

    Jeremiah 22:24

    His grandson Zerubbabel prospered and ruled. In fact the same words God used in rejecting Jeconiah were deliberately used in establishing Zerubbabel.
    “As surely as I live,” declares the LORD, “even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah,

    were a signet ring on my right hand,

    I would still pull you off.
    —

    — Haggai 2:23

    “‘On that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘I will take you, my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,’ declares the LORD,

    ‘and I will make you like my signet ring,

    for I have chosen you,’ declares the LORD Almighty.”

     

    WHO WAS GOD’S SIGNET RING???

    WHO BECAME GOD’S SIGNET RING AFTER THE ABOVE DECLARATION BY GOD?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 4, 2024 at 4:19 am#946112
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    NOTICE Especially ……Ezekiel 36:27…..notice God says,  and “Cause You” to walk in my “STATUES” , and keep my “JUDGEMENTS”, and do them.

    Notice the word “LAW” , is not used there, why?, because by the way “law” works , can never make our hearts right before God,  Just as PAUL SAID……”BY works of “LAW”, (the way law works) no flesh shall be justified (made right)  before God.

    AMEN TO BROTHER PAUL, YES, We are made right with God in a “new and living way” , apart from the “works of law”.  

    LAWS AND ARE MADE FOR THE,  “UNGODLY” , To regulate their evil and unbelieving hearts.  To suppress and regulate  the “lusts” working in them.

    The Godly have no need for “any law” of “any kind” , because the Spirit of “The living God”, abides “IN” them.

    Your wrong DT, in more ways the you think, Don’t let, your new found pride destroy you.   REPENT!.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

     

    March 4, 2024 at 10:04 am#946113
    Jodi
    Participant

     

    DT

    YOU: II Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them that I might minister unto you; Paul tells the Corinthians he isn’t charging them for his “ministry” to them; he is being so gracious to the wealthier church in Corinth, but took payment from less wealthy churches so he wouldn’t have to “charge” them even though it was his “right” to do so. The church that could afford payment, Paul wasn’t going to “burden”; but the poorer churches, he’ll take their payment and calls it “robbing” them. Why didn’t he refuse payment? If Paul meant something else, “robbing” is an extremely poor choice of words; but I think he meant what he said.

    ME: So your perspective of Paul seems to be,

    Corinth, you’re so wealthy, your so cool, I wouldn’t dare ask anything from you, but get this, ha ha, I am here preaching the gospel to you, by the backs of those poor churches, yah those idiots I make them pay.

    Curious DT what you are working off from, did you find some doctrine that likes to take verses here and there of Paul and remove them from the surrounding truth so to slander him?

    Do you have any idea that Paul had asked and received money from them times before? In this light might you consider what might have changed?

    2 Corinthians 2:8 The Collection for the Lord’s People

    1And now, brothers and sisters, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2In the midst of a very severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. 3For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the Lord’s people. 5And they exceeded our expectations: They gave themselves first of all to the Lord, and then by the will of God also to us. 6 So we urged Titus, just as he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. 7But since you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in the love we have kindled in you—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

    8I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

    10 And here is my judgment about what is best for you in this matter. Last year you were the first not only to give but also to have the desire to do so. 11Now finish the work, so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it, according to your means. 12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have. 13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”

    Titus Sent to Receive the Collection

    16Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you. 17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative. 18 And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel…24 Therefore show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it.

    2 Corinthians 9

    1There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the Lord’s people. 2 For I know your eagerness to help, and I have been boasting about it to the Macedonians, telling them that since last year you in Achaia were ready to give; and your enthusiasm has stirred most of them to action. 3But I am sending the brothers in order that our boasting about you in this matter should not prove hollow, but that you may be ready, as I said you would be. 4 For if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we not to say anything about you would be ashamed of having been so confident. 5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to visit you in advance and finish the arrangements for the generous gift you had promised. Then it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.

    12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

    2 Corinthians 10: 1 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you, I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

    7 You are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do. 8So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it. 9I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. 10For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing.” 11Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.

    12We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. 13We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the sphere of service God himself has assigned to us, a sphere that also includes you. 14We are not going too far in our boasting, as would be the case if we had not come to you, for we did get as far as you with the gospel of Christ. 15Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand, 16so that we can preach the gospel in the regions beyond you. For we do not want to boast about work already done in someone else’s territory. 17But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” 18For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

    2 Corinthians 11:1 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?

    8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

    9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that! Whatever anyone else dares to boast about I am speaking as a fool, I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? 30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

    2 Corinthians 12: 14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17 Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit? 19 Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening. 20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

    So what changed DT? 

    Let me highlight,

    8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

    12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face.

    14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you.

    DT you do realize that the false apostles are getting PAID right and what they want is the church’s possessions to serve themselves and they boast therein which is a slap in the church’s face, but they put up with it. What does Paul boast about as you slander him DT? He boasts about the great lengths of suffering he has put himself through in order to preach the gospel.

    What did we read in 2 Corinthians 9:2, Paul boasted about the giving nature of Corinth to the Macedonians and in turn it encouraged their giving.  But now he says he does not want their possessions he wants them, they have fallen unto sinful ways.

    What does it say when the rich church of Corinth gives donations also to false apostles, where does their devotion and sincere faith lie, do they have any at all or do they just have money to give away? Paul wants their faith, if he took donations without it, he would be just like the false apostles, the only thing he would be able to boast about would be the money itself.

    He specifically says, provided below in a different translation for more clarity, 

    12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.

     

    March 4, 2024 at 11:36 am#946114
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    I Cor 9:20-23 I have become like a Jew to the Jews, in order that I may gain the Jews. To those under the law I became as under the law (although I myself am not under the law) in order that I may gain those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as outside the law (although I am not outside the law of God, but subject to the law of Christ) in order that I may gain those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order that I may gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, in order that I may become a participant with it.

    Now Paul is all things to everyone. The great pretender becoming whatever he needed to be to “save some.” Today we call that manipulation.

    ME:  

    What does Paul say just prior, 

    18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

    “I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel”.

    Paul was meeting diverse groups of people where they were at and being respectful and sociable in their own element and then he’d cease opportunity to teach them of the gospel. So being polite should be considered manipulative?

    So we are to believe that Paul is manipulative and he  wanted to disclose outright his manipulation to the very people he is supposedly manipulating? Got it!

    March 4, 2024 at 12:38 pm#946115
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    Gal 5:14 Paul says the “whole law” was fulfilled in one word, meaning the entire law, For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” I think he missed the other part of the “law” “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.”

    ME: I am really curious to know the direction you are under, what you put forth is it all from your own accord or are you posting from what you gained from someone else?

    So what is your point exactly, you think Paul was not for the love of God, that he didn’t teach to love God and give Him glory and honor above all else?

    2 Thess 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

    1 Corinthians 2:99 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    1 Corinthians 8:33 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

    1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

    Paul put God above all else.

    1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    1 Corinthians 2:99 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

    The below verse is not from Paul but is a truth to which Paul knew and is to certainly be applied to what he said in Galatians 5. 

    I John 4:20 If a man say, “I love God,” and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    Yes indeed, all the law is held in loving thy neighbor because anyone who has a mind knows, that if you do not do as such, then you are not following the law of loving God either.

    March 4, 2024 at 6:40 pm#946116
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Me: God didn’t create laws that man wasn’t able to do, man chose not to do them and has paid the consequence for that disobedience. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 30.

    You: Your above statement contradicts scripture of the OT and it preaches self-righteousness which then you make us into our own gods.

    Me: There is nothing in what I said that contradicts anything; you obviously didn’t read Deuteronomy Chapter 30. It was Moses who told the people “I have set before you this day life and prosperity, and death and evil” to love God and follow HIS commands, statutes, and ordinances and in doing so you may live and multiply. If you don’t and turn from God you will surely perish.” In verse 11 Moses says “For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you or too distant.” It’s not in heaven or beyond the sea; but it’s in their hearts. What is the “commandment” Moses gave, “to love Yahweh your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments, his statutes, and his ordinances.” Sounds like what Abraham obeyed. The people had a choice to follow God and “live” or not and “die.” This “scenario” is everywhere in the Tanakh; the Israelite’s followed God and prospered and when they didn’t they “perished”, just as Moses said. Nothing in what Moses said makes anyone a “god.” Joshua told the Israelite’s to choose who they were going to serve. So mankind has a choice to follow God or not.

     

    You: God created laws to reveal that man can do nothing of himself, we need God’s Spirit in us to be able to walk in all His ways.

    Me: Then you need to read the 613 commands God gave to the Israelite’s. Do we really “need” God’s spirit to treat people like people? If we need “God’s Spirit in us to be able to walk in all His ways”, I can tell you from personal experience there are some “christians” who are anything but “Christ like” and can confidently say there is no way the “spirit” is in them. If the “spirit” is in “christians” why can’t you tell the difference between the “christian” community and the world? And shouldn’t the “christian” community be “sinless” since the spirit is helping them “walk in all HIS ways”? When was the last time you heard someone talk about “running from sin”, like Joseph running from Potiphar’s wife? No, our skeletons in the closet are kept under lock and key so no one can see inside.

    March 4, 2024 at 6:41 pm#946117
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    The mental gymnastics performed to keep the lineage of Jesus from falling apart is amazing. Except Zerubbabel didn’t sit on David’s throne, he was the governor of Judah. Next!

    March 4, 2024 at 6:56 pm#946118
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: NOTICE Especially ……Ezekiel 36:27…..notice God says, and “Cause You” to walk in my “STATUES” , and keep my “JUDGMENTS”, and do them.

    Notice the word “LAW” , is not used there, why?, because by the way “law” works , can never make our hearts right before God, Just as PAUL SAID……”BY works of “LAW”, (the way law works) no flesh shall be justified (made right) before God.

    Me: First, look up the definition of “Statute” and confirm it’s meaning as “a law that has been formally approved and written down.” By using the word “statute” it is assumed the reader would know and understand it’s meaning as being “written law”, a “law.” Unless of course one didn’t know what the definition of the word is…hmmm

    Second, the phrase “keeping my judgments” also translated to “keeping my ordinances”, an authoritative command. Look up the Hebrew and be educated or look at different translations.

    Third, you still haven’t shown where in the Tanakh it says obeying God’s “laws”, “statutes”, “commands” justified anyone. Either prove the “law” was to justify the obeyer or admit Paul lied.

     

    You: LAWS AND ARE MADE FOR THE, “UNGODLY”, To regulate their evil and unbelieving hearts. To suppress and regulate the “lusts” working in them.

    Me: Prove it!! You still haven’t read one of the 613 “laws” given to Moses have you? From your statement the answer is an obvious, no! Explain what is “evil and unbelieving” or a regulation of “lust” to not harvest a corner of a field and leave it for the poor? I think you have a HUGE misunderstanding of the law given to Moses.

    March 4, 2024 at 9:03 pm#946119
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

     

     

    You: Jechoniah is listed in the lineage of Jesus (Matt 1:11),

    a name that God said

    “Write ye this man childless,

    a man that shall not prosper in his days:

    for no man of his seed shall prosper,

    sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling anymore in Judah.”

    (Jer 22:30) Did you catch it? Jechoniah is in the lineage of Jesus, but God said none of his descendants will sit on David’s throne.

    Apparently the writer of Matthew didn’t read his OT.

     

    DID YOU READ IT ALL?

    ME: FINE! READ HEREUNDER:

    You: The mental gymnastics performed to keep the lineage of Jesus from falling apart is amazing. Except Zerubbabel didn’t sit on David’s throne,

    he was the governor of Judah.

    Next!!!!!!!

    — Haggai 2:23

    “‘On that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘I will take you, my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,’ declares the LORD,

    ‘and I will make you like my signet ring,

    for I have chosen you,’ declares the LORD Almighty.”

     

    WHY DID GOD CHOOSE ZERUBABEL?

    WHAT THE SIGNET RING MEANS?

    KEEP IN MIND THAT THE OWNER OF THE SIGNET RING IS

    THE KING OF KINGS! GOD ALMIGHTY!

    NOW READ AND CHEW:!!!!

    Genesis 38:And he said to them: Can we find such another man, that is full of the spirit of God? 39He said therefore to Joseph:

    Seeing God hath shewn thee all that thou hast said, can I find one wiser and one like unto thee?

     40Thou shalt be over my house, and at the commandment of thy mouth all the people shall obey:

    only in the kingly throne will I be above thee.

     41And again Pharao said to Joseph:

    Behold, I have appointed thee over the whole land of Egypt.

     42And he took his ring from his own hand, and gave it into his hand:

    and he put upon him a robe of silk, and put a chain of gold about his neck. 43And he made him go up into his second chariot,

    the crier proclaiming that all should bow their knee before him,

    and that they should know he was made govenor over the whole land of Egypt.

     44And the king said to Joseph: I am Pharao;

    without thy commandment no man shall move hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

     45And he turned his name, and called him in the Eyyptian tounge,

    The saviour of the world.

    And he gave him to wife Asenth the daughter of Putiphare priest of Heliopolis. Then Joseph went out to the land of Egypt:

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 5, 2024 at 3:26 am#946120
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Nothing in what you wrote supported why Jechoniah should be in the lineage of Jesus, especially when God pulled the kingship authority from him and his descendants and said he was to be remembered as childless (no matter how many kids he has while imprisoned). This would mean anyone born after him would not have rights to the throne of Judah; AND if his children don’t have rights to the throne, neither would the grandchildren. If you would have put on your reading and comprehension glasses, you would have caught the term “like” a signet ring; not that it was and scripture tells us he had the authority of a governor.

    You bringing up Joseph as a “parallel” shows you are grasping onto anything that would have the potential to support your “thinking.” Joseph was a prisoner raised second to Pharaoh; Zerubbabel on the other hand was suppose to be in the kingship of David was reduced to governor. Instead of one who was in complete authority, his authority came from a king.

    The writer of Matthew messed up…BAD!! Did you find all three “prominent” scenarios justifying Jechoniah being listed in the lineage of Jesus? The fact different scenarios where thought up shows an issue was known and Jechoniah shouldn’t be there; so at least three DIFFERENT possibilities where born to explain away why he is there. You can dance your way around this, but facts are facts…christianity falls apart when you actually study and test it’s words. Mind you, this is coming from one who had walked in it for 40 years.

    March 5, 2024 at 4:48 am#946121
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT you said…….Me: First, look up the definition of “Statute” and confirm its meaning as “a law that has been formally approved and written down.” By using the word “statute” it is assumed the reader would know and understand its meaning as being “written law”, a “law.” Unless of course one didn’t know what the definition of the word is…hmmm

    DT…….A statue is a written document formed by someone in authority, it does not become enforced as  a “law”, until it has been ratified by those in power.  Our congress has power to write statutes, but they only become laws  when they are ratified by Congress. Then the statue becomes a law.  (A enforced document)  Anyone should know that. You don’t call a written statue a “LAW”  until it has been ratified as such by those in authority.  .

    WHY do you think God wrote his  commandments on “Stone tablets ” ,  Does it not show that he was going to use “force” to cause his commandments to be kept by those unbelieving Israelites?   He forced them to obey him through “fear”, just as I have shown you as written in Ex20;20…….> “that the “FEAR” OF HIM, (God) , be before you eyes , “THAT YOU SIN NOT”.   It’s clear for those who have eyes to see.

    Again Paul was absolutely right in what he said…..>” By works of “LAW”,  (the way laws works), no flesh will be justified before God.”

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

     

    March 5, 2024 at 4:17 pm#946122
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    First let me say I am very familiar with Deuteronomy 30 and I would like to connect it directly to Ezekiel 36.

    Notice the prophecy, God knows they will be given blessing and cursing, but what happens after that?

    Deuteronomy 30a;1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

    Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Let me highlight something for you, “And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them”. Mind you, this is exactly what the Apostle Paul teaches us. Sounds to me though DT that you believe in your own righteousness, something Paul most certainly did not, his hope was in the promised Spirit. You have not yet come to the knowledge it seems that just as the Messiah needs the Spirit of God living in him as Isaiah tells us, so do all of us.

    You give a point to me to which I have spoken myself to others and is a point that Paul speaks to as well. I know people who don’t know God and thus His laws, but God surely knows them and has blessed them in multiple ways with His Spirit and through that Spirit they keep the law not even knowing it. On the other hand, I know people who are baptized Christians who live in all manners of sin where God’s Spirit is far from them and they do not follow the laws that they know full well of.

    Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

    What do you suppose God’s MERCY on us entails DT? God gives His Spirit as He wills and if it were not for His Spirit given here and there upon the earth, we would be living in a world that would be nothing but wickedness 24/7.

    There is so much more to this conversation, which Paul actually gives amazing insight too. Are we not carnally minded creatures who need God’s Spirit?

    March 6, 2024 at 3:50 am#946123
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……another excellent post.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi…………gene

    March 6, 2024 at 5:24 am#946124
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    Read Acts 15:1-32 and Gal 2:1-10:

    Paul goes to Jerusalem over a discussion concerning what the gentiles were suppose to do and the general consensus is the gentiles where “to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.” This was written in a letter to the churches. Now let jump to Galatians where Paul is recounting to them his visit to this counsel in Jerusalem and focus like you have never focused before on the words of Paul in Gal 2:10. What does he tell those in Galatia he was to do…“10 They only asked us to remember the poor.” Something doesn’t match. I thought the letter included some other items the gentiles where to observe and it wasn’t to only “remember the poor.”

    Staying on this letter Paul was to take to the churches, it was said “to abstain from food polluted (sacrificed to) by idols” and Paul teaches (I Cor 8:1-8) it doesn’t matter whether or not food sacrificed to idols is consumed. This is direct conflict to what was agreed upon at the council in Jerusalem. Paul is in direct opposition to the church leaders.

    ME:

    Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

    The context is not the substance of what they should teach, but to whom they should serve and as Paul and Barnabas went out to teach to the Gentiles they were also to remember the poor.

    We see this in the below passage,

    Romans 15:24 When so ever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company. 25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. 28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

    DT, you really want to assert the context of verse 10 has nothing to do with verse 9, certainly convenient for you to do so in attempt to slander Paul.

    As Paul travels to serve the Gentiles and James travels to serve the Jews, along their journeys they as well serve the poor, using donations from the churches to provide them with basic needs.

    Concerning 1 Corinthians 8, Paul gives us some common sense.  

    1 Corinthians 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God. 4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

    What is Paul teaching,

    An idol is nothing at all in the world

    There is no God but one, we have one God the Father

    Not everyone has this knowledge, and some people so accustomed to eating idols they eat of it thinking of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

    Food does not bring us near to God, doesn’t matter, as we are no worse if we do and no better if we don’t.

    You sin against Christ if you eat in an idols temple among those whose conscience is weak.

    13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

    1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

    26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.” 27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience.

    Do you get the common sense here DT?

    Idol worship is a sin and therefore worshiping idols by eating meat sacrificed to these idols is a sin.

    If you are one who has knowledge that there is only one true God, you also know that idols are fake, and therefore eating the meat sacrifice to an idol is nothing, to you it is merely just eating meat.

    When someone who is being ministered to, to come out of idol worship but their conscience still is thinking that they are eating to gods because they have not yet the knowledge that there is only one true God, you do not partake of the meat with them, such would be a sin, it’s a stumbling block to those you are trying to convert.

    Paul does not condone Gentiles to eat meat sacrificed to idols in worship to those idols, it’s a sin. If Gentiles are being ministered to, being in the process of a hopeful conversion, Paul certainly would not be condoning them to go feast with the heathen that are worshipping their gods through sacrificed meat, he would be telling them to stay away, not to partake.

    March 7, 2024 at 4:11 am#946127
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……DT, has lost his ability to “comprehend “, those thing it appears, by his arrogant, and hatred of brother PAUl, he has become blind to his words.

    GOOD POST, Jodi.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene

    March 7, 2024 at 7:45 am#946128
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    AMEN Jodi and Gene.
    The OT without the NT doesn’t work.

    God bless

    March 7, 2024 at 8:17 am#946129
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Oops, somethings wrong with your statement…

    Let me fix it for you, “The NT without the OT doesn’t work.” Actually, does the NT really even work?

    How can something that came before be dependent on what came after? That was from a 15 year old…out of mouths of babes! That’s like saying the foundation is dependent on the house.

    March 7, 2024 at 10:05 am#946130
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Nothing in what you wrote supported why Jechoniah should be in the lineage of Jesus, especially when God pulled the kingship authority from him and said he was to be remembered as childless (no matter how many kids he has while imprisoned). This would mean anyone born after him would not have rights to the throne of Judah; AND if his children don’t have rights to the throne, neither would the grandchildren. If you would have put on your reading and comprehension glasses, you would have caught the term “like” a signet ring when referring to Zerubbabel; not that it “was” a signet ring and scripture tells us he a governor.

    You bringing up Joseph as a “parallel” shows you are grasping onto anything that would have the potential to support your “thinking.” Joseph was a prisoner raised second to Pharaoh; Zerubbabel on the other hand was suppose to be in the kingship line of David and was a governor; seems like a demotion. Instead of having complete authority, Zerubbabel’s authority came from a king.

    The writer of Matthew messed up…BAD!! Did you find all three “prominent” scenarios justifying Jechoniah being listed in the lineage of Jesus? The fact different scenarios where thought up shows an issue was known and Jechoniah shouldn’t be there; so at least three DIFFERENT possibilities where born to explain away why he is there. You can dance your way around this, but facts are facts…christianity falls apart when you study and test it’s words and this is coming from one who had walked in it for 40 years.

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