John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,401 through 25,420 (of 25,993 total)
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  • #946074
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Anyway, I know that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of YHWH.
    I don’t want to waste anymore time with your hatred of the truth.
    God bless.

    #946078
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    The truth is what the truth is; the fact you are unable to accept the truth, means you are the one who hates truth. I showed you Paul is a liar and asked you to explain his words…you couldn’t, but do accept Paul’s lies as truth.

    Jesus cannot be the messiah as he is NOT from the seed of David, he was conceived of the spirit.

    If Deut 18:15 is really a reference to Jesus, are you going to say Moses and Jesus were “like” or “similar”? I thought Jesus was the son of God; wouldn’t that make him greater?

    The true Messiah is to bring peace to the world, not a sword.

    The true Messiah is to unit the Jewish people again, not divide.

    If Jesus is the Messiah, being the ultimate sacrifice and no more needed, explain why sacrifices will be restored once the new temple is built?

    I once believed as you do. What humors me is your adamant stance on Jesus, but you can’t answer questions let alone explain why you believe what you believe. How are you bringing anyone to the Jesus if you can’t answer questions or explain the why? It would seem your belief is superficial and skin deep, like a coating of enamel.

    #946079
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: show me the scripture where it say Abraham keep (kept) Gods “laws”.

    Me: Gen 26:5 Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Or is this not good enough or where you looking for Abraham to be following the Mosaic Law that was given to the people hundreds of years later? Are you saying people are unable to have a relationship with their creator without a set of “laws”? Are we not created in God’s image? Are God’s “laws” not imprinted within each of us as a result of being in HIS image? Hate to break it to you, people are actually “good” in their nature and not “evil.”

    Concerning Isaac and Jacob, are you insinuating neither of them followed after God or did what God commanded?!? Careful, as scripture tells they did (reread Genesis again). What exactly did Abraham obey since it was God who told Isaac his father obeyed HIS voice? What did Job do that he was blameless and upright, one who feared God and shunned evil? Job even offered up burnt offerings to God on behalf of his children. How is one blameless and upright unless they are following God? The larger question is why is Job, a gentile, offering sacrifices to God before HE “mandated” it?

    Remember the “law” (Mosaic Law) is the first five books of the Tanakh and inside that God gave 613 mitzvot to the people, instructions on how they were to worship God and treat others. Why does this understanding anger you so much? If we didn’t have speed limits and everyone drove the speed they felt safe driving, how many more accidents do you think we would have? So by establishing a “safe” speed everyone is to adhere to, this “law” creates a safe driving experience; but for you this is “forced compliance”?!? Explain how God telling HIS people how they should live is “forced compliance”? How is respecting your neighbor “forced compliance”? It’s almost like you hate what God established in the heart of man.

    You: we will see where your new Jewish faith and hatred of Paul and Jesus as the messiah, will get you in the end, won’t we?

    Me: I didn’t convert to Judaism, there is no need to; would say closer to Bnei Noach (Noahide) as I have walked away from christianity. When was the last time you saw a Jew on a street corner trying to convert someone to Judaism? NEVER!! Christianity on the other hand, convert to my religion or you’re going to Hell. Read the prophets of the Tanakh and see if the messiah spoken of matches the “messiah” Jesus you cling to. I’m not speaking of this verse or that one, read the entire book; then get back to me. I know you won’t; because if you do, it will change you and change isn’t what you desire; you’re content in your belief. I started asking to many questions of a pastor and almost got kicked out of the church I attended; so much love and understanding. Even here, some responses I have received are crude; “christianity” isn’t really about love, unless it’s for those who agree with you; but conversion to what you believe is truth.

    You: There is “ONLY”, three things God requires us to do; to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

    Me: Do you realize Micah summarized the mitzvot written in the “books of law”; how mankind is suppose to interact with one another? Micah begins the verse with “He has told you, 0 man, what is good, And what the LORD requires of you.” When did God tell man what is good and what HE requires of them – could it be when HE spoke to the people at Mt. Sinai?!?

    Then you tell me to “repent”; repent of what, finally realizing God is my salvation and there is no middleman required to get go to HIM? Stop believing Paul when he calls you a filthy, dirty, nasty, sinful, icky human being who isn’t worthy of God’s love and the only way you are is with the Jesus; you are worthy of God’s love and all you have to do is turn to HIM, nothing or no one is required; just you and HIM. Anything that stands between you and God is idolatry. It really is that simple!

    By the way, the fact you failed to answer my questions didn’t go unnoticed.

    #946080
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said……> Gen 26:5 Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    me….The word (torah). Does not mean law, it means a precept, or statue,  but not a law as you falsely assume.  Not only that the LAW was not even given until 430 years latter , exactly as The apostle Paul, said.

    DT this is what Peter said about the Apostle Paul…….> 2 Peter 3:15-16…..>“and account of the long suffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you. (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understand, which which they that are unlearned wrest, as they do also the other  scriptures,  unto their own destruction”.

    DT ask yourself where do you fit in that picture?

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

    #946081
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Focus like a laser beam, when I quoted Gen 26:5 God said it was HIS “laws” Abraham obeyed. What “laws” was God saying Abraham obeyed? What commandments? What statutes? Why do you keep deflecting away from this question?

    Your last few responses to my comments are a clear indicator that what you believe, you cannot fully support; as I have said to others how can you be leading anyone to the Jesus if you can’t answer questions and explain your reasoning?

    By the way, I am neither ignorant, unstable, or have to twist scripture to fit a belief. If scripture is difficult to understand, it isn’t from God; and Paul is difficult to understand at times just as Peter points out. It’s humorous how everyone has remained silent on my criticism of Paul, even after quoting his words and the lies he spews. Time to wake up from your religious slumber and start testing the words of Paul. Remember he was speaking to the none Jew who didn’t have the benefit of having the Jewish scriptures to reference and verify what he was saying; you do!

    #946083
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……AT THE TIME OF ABRAHAM, there was no “Law”  (enforced requirements anywhere ),  your lack of understanding scriptures is the problem,  I gave you the actual word used there and you did not use your “laser beam” to check it out.  The actual word there means Gods precepts, translators inserted the word law in error.

    Abraham was a man of Faith and that Faith in God,  was “attributed”, to him as righteousness” .  

    if you believe Abraham was under the law ” then show  us a single “SABATH  DAY”  he ever kept.  Or for that matter show us a single sacrifice he ever made for his sins.  Now use you “laser beam” and try to focus on that . The “LAW” came 490 years after the promises to Abraham”,  exactly as the apostle Paul said.

    Anyone with any sense knows that the “law” came into effect at Mount Sinai just as   Ex 20:20,  “clearly shows”>. The law did not exist until then.  THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD were turned into LAWS, because of the evil unbelief of the Israelites.  Laws do not work by Faith, but by enforcement.  People who think by their obedience to laws they are made right in their hearts,  are  foolish and ignorant of the truth.

    The APOSTLE PAUL,  is absolutely right in what he said. “By works of law, shall no flesh be “justified” before God”.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

    #946084
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    I guess it’s been 19 days since I last posted. Things have been crazy busy for me the last few weeks.

    Anyway, I saw you response to my last post.

    YOU:

    The WORD was not 👉 the GOD(THE FATHER)

    THE Word was WITH THE GOD

    AND THE WORD WAS 👉GOD

    ME:

    The WORD is God the Father’s Spirit in Jesus, which Jesus preached that it would come to abode in us also.

    It’s pretty awesome when you think about it.

    Indeed God’s Word from the beginning was of the coming Christ, a Son of Man being anointed of the Father’s Spirit and sent out into the world to save all that was lost.

    Therein Jesus would speak God’s Word, words to which Jesus said themselves are Spirit and they are life. He preached of being born of the Spirit which he also said in other words, was to drink of the same cup that he drinks of, which according to Paul is to drink of the One Spirit.

    Berean, do you honestly not realize that which was WITH God from the beginning was His Word, His Word that His Spirit would dwell in man and that if the Word is His Spirit in man, then the Word is thus also Himself? COME ON!

    Further, the Spirit is life because the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth and God promised from the beginning to give it to us, which was the Words of Life, eternal life was with the Father from the beginning. 

    You do realize Berean that God’s Promise of eternal life was WITH the Father even before the world was and that God Himself is eternal life and the only way to gain eternal life is through being born of His Spirit, having His Spirit aboding in you.

    Jesus is the example, he was born of the Spirit, he drank of the cup of the One Spirit and then he entered into God’s eternal  kingdom. This is God’s Word made true, as God had promised to take a son of David and make him into His own Son, settle him into His House and make him an eternal king. John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph… 49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel.”

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, Promised before the world began

    2 Tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

    “All things were made by (REASON OF) him; and without him was not anything made that was made.”

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED for you FROM THE foundation of the world.

    As I said, this is all pretty awesome. The Word was made true in the flesh of Jesus, God’s Word from the beginning, Jesus was begotten of God’s Spirit filled with grace and truth where the people beheld his glory, jut as Isaiah had declared, where it was a glory begotten in him given by God for him ONLY. When this Word was made flesh it was the beginning of the Word of Life being preached.  This is why in John we read of him being for the LIGHT Isaiah spoke about that God had promised and why we read of the Spirit coming to abode in Jesus also just as Isaiah spoke about. 

    John 2: 11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    The GLORY was him being begotten of the Spirit whereby such he was able to perform miracles. Jesus used miracles to prove he was God’s Son having been born of His Spirit, how do you not realize that?

    Are you really that blind Berean? Having God’s Spirit coming to abode in you is not being begotten by God? COME ON, they are ONE AND THE SAME THING AND BOTH are given to us in John 1. We are even told that John bears witness that he who the Spirit descended upon IS the Son of God.  

    Jesus is a firstborn of many brethren and in John 1 we are given, “12 but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God..13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory as the only begotten of the Father FILLED with grace and truth. COME ON Berean, BY THE SPIRIT ABODING IN JESUS is he then FILLED WITH GRACE AND TRUTH and John goes on to give us the account of the Spirit descending upon Jesus. Further, Jesus says that the Spirit COMING TO ABODE IN HIM WAS AN ANOINTING-this is an ONLY begetting of the Spirit for a specific purpose, a glory given ONLY to Jesus. 

     

     

     

     

    #946085
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Gene Balthrop

    Amen to your last post.

    God bless

    #946093
    Jodi
    Participant

    Yes, I will second what Danny said, amen to your last post Gene!

    DT, what is so awful about what Paul teaches? Certainly it seems what you think is awful is because you have him all wrong as you don’t apply his words with his own words as well as apply them to the words of others in scripture OT and NT. 

    Why DT did God say in Ezekiel 36 that He would put His Spirit in man and by such CAUSE him to be able to walk in all His ways? Why do we see Isaiah tell us that the Messiah would also receive God’s Spirit and do righteous works, such as be able to judge the world in righteousness, not by his own eyes, but through God in him?

    No man is able to keep even one letter of the law without the workings of God’s Spirit. The law identified sin and it revealed that no man is capable of living without sin on his own. One must be born of God’s Spirit to be without sin and Jesus is our example, he is the firstborn.

     The Spirit within equates to the law being written in the heart, wherein thus the law is not necessary, do you get that? This is what Paul taught. Ezekiel starts off by saying God would cleanse us and give us a new heart and put His Spirit within causing man to walk in all His ways. Jesus preached that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of and be baptized with the baptism he received, but people on this forum out right deny Jesus’s own baptism. Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit as God had baptized him with the Holy Spirit, which was a calling to righteousness just as Isaiah prophesied unto a Son of Man. 

    See, believing in Jesus is believing that the Spirit of God dwells in him, that he has been born of the Spirit, where the fruit thereof as Paul says in Ephesians, is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Believing in Jesus ALSO means that we are promised to drink of the same cup he drinks of, drink of the cup of the One Spirit which brings forth righteousness unto eternal life. 

    We are justified through Christ as he is the proof of God’s working Spirit in man. The idea that God had to send down a pre-existing Son to earth and make him flesh in order to save us is a LIE that takes away from the glory of the truth and is to undermine God’s Spirit. God sent down His Word from heaven, His Word that had been With him before the world was, the Word by which He created all things, His purpose, which was for His Spirit to come to dwell in man and lead him in all the ways that he should go. Jesus is a firstborn of this, he received the Spirit at the river Jordan and then he preached this Word of Life and then he received the” Promised Spirit” when he rose from the dead, “this day I have begotten you”. This is the Word being made flesh. 

    It’s not a pre-existing Son of God came to be our savior as many on this forum teach.

    YHVH our heavenly Father is our Savior through CHRIST -the Son of Man anointed of God’s Spirit, where being led by that Spirit living in him he is a Son of God and it is this Son of God who was sent. He came from God, he came directly to us thus from heaven.

    Paul gives us the very definition of the Son in Romans 8 but many on this forum deny it. Jesus is a Son of God because the Spirit in him is a witness to his own spirit that he is a child of God. Jesus’s actions show us that this Son of Man’s spirit is being led by God’s Spirit and those that are” led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.” By this he is a firstborn of many brethren. Being justified through Christ exactly equates to being justified through YHVH’s Spirit aboding in man. Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation and that salvation came through YHVH aboding in Jesus.

    John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

    YHVH’s Spirit is the cause to our salvation, Jesus’s name was glorified at the river Jordon and upon his resurrection, when both times he was begotten of God’s Spirit. Paul tells us in Galatians that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”  You see the Spirit dwells in you it’s in your heart so it becomes your nature, if it’s in your nature there is no need to have a law. Needing to have the law when the Spirit is in you and it’s works become your very nature, would be an insult to God, it would be telling God that He Himself needs the law also in order to be righteous. In God’s kingdom He is going to change the very nature of animals too, ” 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” This has been one of my favorite scriptures since I was 10, and I have been longing for the fulfillment of this passage since then.

     

    #946094
    Jodi
    Participant

    Yes, I will second what Danny said, amen to your last post Gene!

    DT, what is so awful about what Paul teaches? Certainly it seems what you think is awful is because you have him all wrong as you don’t apply his words with his own words as well as apply them to the words of others in scripture OT and NT. 

    Why DT did God say in Ezekiel 36 that He would put His Spirit in man and by such CAUSE him to be able to walk in all His ways? Why do we see Isaiah tell us that the Messiah would also receive God’s Spirit and do righteous works, such as be able to judge the world in righteousness, not by his own eyes, but through God in him?

    No man is able to keep even one letter of the law without the workings of God’s Spirit. The law identified sin and it revealed that no man is capable of living without sin on his own. One must be born of God’s Spirit to be without sin and Jesus is our example, he is the firstborn.

     The Spirit within equates to the law being written in the heart, wherein thus the law is not necessary, do you get that? This is what Paul taught. Ezekiel starts off by saying God would cleanse us and give us a new heart and put His Spirit within causing man to walk in all His ways. Jesus preached that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of and be baptized with the baptism he received, but people on this forum out right deny Jesus’s own baptism. Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit as God had baptized him with the Holy Spirit, which was a calling to righteousness just as Isaiah prophesied unto a Son of Man. 

    See, believing in Jesus is believing that the Spirit of God dwells in him, that he has been born of the Spirit, where the fruit thereof as Paul says in Ephesians, is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Believing in Jesus ALSO means that we are promised to drink of the same cup he drinks of, drink of the cup of the One Spirit which brings forth righteousness unto eternal life. 

    We are justified through Christ as he is the proof of God’s working Spirit in man. The idea that God had to send down a pre-existing Son to earth and make him flesh in order to save us is a LIE that takes away from the glory of the truth and is to undermine God’s Spirit. God sent down His Word from heaven, His Word that had been With him before the world was, the Word by which He created all things, His purpose, which was for His Spirit to come to dwell in man and lead him in all the ways that he should go. Jesus is a firstborn of this, he received the Spirit at the river Jordan and then he preached this Word of Life and then he received the” Promised Spirit” when he rose from the dead, “this day I have begotten you”. This is the Word being made flesh. 

    It’s not a pre-existing Son of God came to be our savior as many on this forum teach.

    YHVH our heavenly Father is our Savior through CHRIST -the Son of Man anointed of God’s Spirit, where being led by that Spirit living in him he is a Son of God and it is this Son of God who was sent. He came from God, he came directly to us thus from heaven.

    Paul gives us the very definition of the Son in Romans 8 but many on this forum deny it. Jesus is a Son of God because the Spirit in him is a witness to his own spirit that he is a child of God. Jesus’s actions show us that this Son of Man’s spirit is being led by God’s Spirit and those that are” led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.” By this he is a firstborn of many brethren.

    Being justified through Christ exactly equates to being justified through YHVH’s Spirit aboding in man. Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation and that salvation came through YHVH aboding in Jesus.

    John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

    YHVH’s Spirit is the cause to our salvation, Jesus’s name was glorified at the river Jordon and upon his resurrection, when both times he was begotten of God’s Spirit. Paul tells us in Galatians that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”  You see the Spirit dwells in you it’s in your heart so it becomes your nature, if it’s in your nature there is no need to have a law. Needing to have the law when the Spirit is in you and it’s works become your very nature, would be an insult to God, it would be telling God that He Himself needs the law also in order to be righteous. In God’s kingdom He is going to change the very nature of animals too, ” 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” This has been one of my favorite scriptures since I was 10, and I have been longing for the fulfillment of this passage since then.

     

    #946095
    Jodi
    Participant

    previous post was repeated so I have deleted it

    #946096
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: The actual word there means Gods precepts, translators inserted the word law in error.

    Me: Are you saying your infallible King James (along with every other translation) has an error?!?!? Except it’s not an error (KJV has plenty of others to worry about); if you would have looked up the Hebrew of the passage the word you would have found is “to.rah” (does the word look familiar?) Strong’s H8451 and the meaning is law, direction, instruction; precepts means instruction, it fits. Seems my “laser beam” is actually working; might want to get yours looked at.

    This brings us back to my original question; in Gen 26:5 God says to Isaac “because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” God gave four areas Abraham obeyed; what “charge”, “commandments”, “statutes”, and “laws” (torah) did God say Abraham kept hundreds of years before giving HIS commands to the Israelite people in the wilderness?

    Another question I’m still waiting for an answer to is where in the Tanakh does it ever state one is “justified” by following the “law”?

    #946099
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……. (to-raw) (to-raw),  means a “precept or statue” , especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch” : then the translators added – law”  

    You’re still unable to understand, the difference between the words “the” law,  and just law, by itself .  “The law”  is referring to the Ten Commandments ,  while the word law by itself applies  to,  many different kinds of enforced behaviors.

    That was Paul’s point,  by the way “law works”, (enforced compliance) no one’s “heart” could ever be made right.   Laws are made for the unbelieving, ungodly people, whose behavior can only be controlled by the way “LAW”  works.

    The gentiles didn’t need any laws, but did the things contained in “the law” , how? Buy God’s spirit of love working in their hearts, causing them to fulfill every thing God required of them.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

    #946102
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Thank you for your none answer to my questions. It was God who said Abraham obeyed HIS commands, statutes, and laws. Your failure to answer what Abraham obeyed tells me you don’t have a clue. I guess I shouldn’t expect an answer to where it states in the Tanakh following the “law” “justified” anyone either? Deut 6:24,25 “Yahweh commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear Yahweh our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as at this day. 25 It shall be righteousness to us, if we observe to do all this commandment before Yahweh our God, as he has commanded us.” Following God’s “laws”, “commandments”, “statutes” made them righteous, not justified. You seem to forget, within the 613 Mitzvot are the 10 Commandments and are not separated, holding a higher “value” than the rest of them.

    When “law” is referenced isn’t it speaking of the Law of Moses? Jesus said he didn’t come to abolish “the law” or the prophets? Some translations say “Moses’ teachings”, “Law of Moses”, “The Written Law”; then in the next verse Jesus says not the smallest detail of “the law” will disappear; again, some translations say “God’s Law”, “Moses’ teachings”, “The Written Law”; to say “the law” only references the 10 Commandments would be false.

    If you wish to believe Paul’s words saying your a nasty sinner before God, with nothing you can do, and the only way your not is through the Jesus, believe it, you have freewill. However, explain why I am wrong choosing to believe the words spoken by God over Paul? Did Paul override God’s words? Did Jesus override God’s words? Did our unchanging God, suddenly change?

    Concerning your Sabbath observance, read Ex 16:4,5 and why were they to gather twice as much on the sixth day? Note, this was before Mt Sinai.

    Do you really wonder why I left the christian faith; no one knows why they believe what they believe; I didn’t know why I believed what I believed which caused me to start digging and in the process almost got me kicked out of a church for asking to many questions. If you want to be changed, put the NT aside and start reading the Tanakh; because it will change you. Or don’t! At the very least, start testing the words of Paul and see if they align with the Tanakh. Or don’t! At this point I don’t care; it seems the most import thing for you is to get others to believe in your religion and I don’t have time for religion.

    #946103
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    What’s wrong with Paul? Here are a few verses of Paul and tell me you’re okay with what he says:

    II Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them that I might minister unto you; Paul tells the Corinthians he isn’t charging them for his “ministry” to them; he is being so gracious to the wealthier church in Corinth, but took payment from less wealthy churches so he wouldn’t have to “charge” them even though it was his “right” to do so. The church that could afford payment, Paul wasn’t going to “burden”; but the poorer churches, he’ll take their payment and calls it “robbing” them. Why didn’t he refuse payment? If Paul meant something else, “robbing” is an extremely poor choice of words; but I think he meant what he said.

    I Cor 9:20-23 I have become like a Jew to the Jews, in order that I may gain the Jews. To those under the law I became as under the law (although I myself am not under the law) in order that I may gain those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as outside the law (although I am not outside the law of God, but subject to the law of Christ) in order that I may gain those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order that I may gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, in order that I may become a participant with it. Now Paul is all things to everyone. The great pretender becoming whatever he needed to be to “save some.” Today we call that manipulation.

    Gal 5:14 Paul says the “whole law” was fulfilled in one word, meaning the entire law, For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” I think he missed the other part of the “law” “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.”

    Read Acts 15:1-32 and Gal 2:1-10:

    Paul goes to Jerusalem over a discussion concerning what the gentiles were suppose to do and the general consensus is the gentiles where “to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.” This was written in a letter to the churches. Now let jump to Galatians where Paul is recounting to them his visit to this counsel in Jerusalem and focus like you have never focused before on the words of Paul in Gal 2:10. What does he tell those in Galatia he was to do…“10 They only asked us to remember the poor.” Something doesn’t match. I thought the letter included some other items the gentiles where to observe and it wasn’t to only “remember the poor.”

    Staying on this letter Paul was to take to the churches, it was said “to abstain from food polluted (sacrificed to) by idols” and Paul teaches (I Cor 8:1-8) it doesn’t matter whether or not food sacrificed to idols is consumed. This is direct conflict to what was agreed upon at the council in Jerusalem. Paul is in direct opposition to the church leaders.

    How much more would you like? I can keep going and I haven’t gotten into his twisting of God’s word.

    #946104
    Berean
    Participant

    <h2>Paul’s balance</h2>
    <h2>1Cor.719
    Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but 👉 keeping the commandments of God.</h2>
    <h2></h2>
    <h2>Romans 2:25-29
    Circumcision is useful if you put the law into practice; but 👉 if you transgress the law, 👉 your circumcision becomes uncircumcision 👈</h2>
    <h2>Gal.5:6
    For, in Jesus Christ, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has value, but 👉faith which is active through charity.</h2>
    <h2>Galatians 6:15
    For it is nothing to be circumcised or uncircumcised; what is something 👉is to be a new creature. </h2>
    <h2><span style=”color: #339966;”>God bless </span></h2>

    #946105
    Berean
    Participant

    Paul’s balance

    1Cor.719
    Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but 👉 keeping the commandments of God.

     

    Romans 2:25-29
    Circumcision is useful if you put the law into practice; but 👉 if you transgress the law, 👉 your circumcision becomes uncircumcision 👈

    Gal.5:6
    For, in Jesus Christ, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has value, but 👉faith which is active through charity.

    Galatians 6:15
    For it is nothing to be circumcised or uncircumcised; what is something is to be a new creature.

    #946106
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……Jesus said,  to “LOVE” the LORD GOD with all your heart , and to “LOVE” you neighbor, on these two,  “ALL” the law was hinged, AND IS FULFILLED , by these two things. And so did brother Paul say that,  “LOVE” “FULFILLS ” ALL THE LAW.  “By works of “LAW” (the way law works) ,  “NO FLESH” shall be justified before God”, and he was absolutely right.  IMO.  

    You think we are saying we should break the law,  NO we fulfill all the requirements of ALL THE LAW, by the love of God shed abroad in our hearts.  A operation that only God himself can perform “IN” us,  no “LAW”  (forced compliance)  could ever change the heart of a person,  as the history of Israel,  “CLEARLY SHOWS” .

    Fear can regulate a society, but can never change the Hearts of people,  that takes God himself to do that, by putting his Spirt in us.  That is something a law or groups of laws , can never do.

    The apostle Paul , is 100% right , you on the other hand are completely wrong. If you want to Aline with those Jew’s who murdered Jesus, and the other  apostles, that is as, you say, your so-called  “Freewill” choices,  something I don’t believe in either.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

    #946107
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Only the wicked freemasons are trying constantly to separate YHWH from his Son Jesus Christ.
    Because they know that we need both of them. John 17:3!!
    Repent, time is short!
    Goodbye!

    #946108
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: Paul say that, “LOVE” “FULFILLS ” ALL THE LAW.

    Me: Gal 5:14 “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Don’t know about you, but when I read this it says by loving your neighbor the whole law is fulfilled. As much as you want, you can’t ignore the pesky word “neighbor.” Where do you read God in any of this? Is God now our neighbor?

    Then you have to jump back into “law” not justifying anyone. Still waiting for where it states in the Tanakh anyone is “justified” by following “law.” The only thing I found about following the “law” was it made one righteous. Not doing a very good job proving your point by constantly repeating yourself; give scriptural evidence the law given to Moses was to “justify” the obeyer. You end it with IMO; are we to trust your opinion as truth?

    You say no “law” could ever change the heart of a person; is following the law suppose to change the heart of a person? Doesn’t following God’s “laws” make one a “better person” or is the only way to be a “better person” is with God “in us”? Didn’t these commands come from God, so aren’t they pure and just? Didn’t Moses tell the people to obey God’s commandments, statutes, and ordinances and in doing so they would be choosing life? We must separate the nature of God’s commands from what man does or doesn’t do with them; God didn’t create laws that man wasn’t able to do, man chose not to do them and has paid the consequence for that disobedience. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 30.

    Paul’s a liar and manipulator and by following him you have been duped. Some more of Paul lies:

    II Cor 12:16b “Yet because I was a crafty person, I took you in by deceit!” Paul, being “crafty”, deceived these people…how?!? What did he just admit to doing?!?!

    Phil 1:18 “What does it matter? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed. I rejoice in this, yes, and will rejoice.” In “pretense or truth” Paul rejoices in proclaiming Jesus. The definition of pretense, “A false appearance or action intended to deceive” and he “rejoices” in this deceit.

    Rom 3:7 “But if by my lying, the truth of God abounded to his glory, why am I also still condemned as a sinner?” This is what you desire to follow??!?!

    You hate the Jews because they killed your Jesus; yet, claim to support them; but, reject their interpretation of THEIR scripture. Such a double standard!

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