John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,441 through 25,460 (of 25,993 total)
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  • #946131
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    No where did you articulate where in the Tanakh God said man is justified by following HIS commands. Answer the question!

    You: You don’t call a statue a “LAW”

    Me: You are correct you don’t call a “statue” a law; but “statutes” are; what are state statutes, if not state law?

    Cornell Law School: statute: A statute is a law enacted by a legislature.

    Harvard Law School: statute: Statutes are laws enacted by a legislative body.

    Are we done beating a dead horse yet?

    I feel like a broken record, read Ex 20:18-21 in its entirety, it’s only four verses and should be easily read in less than a minute. Comprehending those words may take longer for some. What the people feared was seeing the thundering and the lightning, hearing the sound of the horn, and seeing the mountain smoking. It literally says this is what the people feared. Moses then tells them the fear they are experiencing they should never forget and to obey God, which will keep one from sin. Does comprehension evade you? The 10 Commands given by God to the people wasn’t what generated fear, it was for obedience and from obedience, life. Do the 10 Commands generate fear in you? Do you shutter every time you read or think about them? Do you cower when they are spoken? NO?!? Then why would you say the Israelite’s did?

    A more important question, do you fear God the same way the Israelite’s did in the wilderness?

    #946132
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Response to post 946113

    You: Corinth, you’re so wealthy, your so cool, I wouldn’t dare ask anything from you, but get this, ha ha, I am here preaching the gospel to you, by the backs of those poor churches, yah those idiots I make them pay.

    Me: Cute! To bad you missed what I was saying. I wasn’t speaking of when “collections” were taken to help others; I was speaking of his taking “payment” from others he was “teaching” but making a point that he wasn’t going to burden those in Corinth with “payment”, even though it was his “right” to do so. And boy did he let them know that, such humility. Did he ever say this to any other church? I don’t recall ever reading such statements to other churches. The point was why did Paul unashamedly use the term “robbing” other churches (isn’t there a commandment about stealing); and by saying this, he’s admitting he’s a thief. He wouldn’t take it from Corinth, but had no problem taking it from others. And you have no problem with it!??! To each their own.

    You: DT you do realize that the false apostles are getting PAID right

    Me: Are you claiming Paul wasn’t being paid? How was Paul able to travel all over the eastern Roman Empire, unless he received financial support. How was he sending his letters everywhere, he didn’t access to a “postal system” in the first century. These letters were hand delivered and the cost to travel wasn’t free.

    Let’s jump into Paul’s “apostleship” claim; according to Acts 1:21-26 an apostle was to be one who walked with Jesus from the time he was baptized and witnessed his resurrection. If there could be any number of apostles, why did they cast lots to determine who would replace Judas? Paul is a self proclaimed “apostle”, he wasn’t around Jesus from the beginning, and didn’t witness the resurrection; this would make him a false apostle. But I’m sure you have a “work around” for this too. As you “work” around this please incorporate why Paul laments in II Tim 1:15 how all those in Asia turned away from him and why does Rev 2:2 commend the church in Ephesus for testing those who call themselves apostles? Have you tested the words of Paul? I have and found them to be lacking. Why does he settle in Rome for two years (end of acts) in his own “rented house” (not free)? Rev 21:14 says the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem will have in them the names of the twelve apostles (not thirteen). Yet Paul claims to be an apostle AND so arrogantly states in II Cor 11:5 “I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.” Who are these “super-apostles” he is referring to?

    Concerning where I’m coming up with this information, most of what I’m pointing out is called verification in combination with reading and comprehension and multiple study bibles. Have I been pointed in a direction by others, of course; the difference is the level of scrutiny and the process of verification of the words I’ve been told verse blindly believing what I’m told and accepting it as truth without verifying it. One of the most obvious examples of believing without verifying in the NT is the claim the writer of Matthew makes about Jesus being the fulfillment of Isa 7:14. If anyone bothered to read Isa chapter 7, they would be asking why this lie was allowed to be written into the NT; but they don’t ask about it because they haven’t read Isaiah. Then you condemn me for taking verses out of “context” and “slandering” Paul?!?! Can I say you’re slandering God by believing words that have been twisted to support modern religion (Hebrews)? Speaking of Hebrews, maybe you missed it, maybe you ignored it; but you never responded to my comments outlining the corruption in the first chapter of the book of Hebrews.

    #946133
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Let’s keep going and talk about your justification of I Cor 9:20-23; why begin at verse 18, let’s back up to verse 14 where Paul tells the Corinthians he’s not going to take payment from them even though “the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.” This is suppose to come from Matt 10:10; the problem with that is the letter to the Corinthians was written around AD 50 while the book of Matthew was written around AD 70. There is a parallel verse in Luke 10:7, but that is estimated to be written between AD 80-110. Did Paul time travel to come up with this statement? Wait, was this passed down from person to person in the first century so they would be paid for “preaching the gospel.” Sounds a little greedy to me, let’s save those souls for the Jesus and get paid in the process!!

    Paul then says: “I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel.” Whether I agree or not with the person I am teaching I will pretend to be like them in order to bring them to the Jesus. You don’t call that manipulation? Do you call that “service to Jesus” by being someone who you are not? To you it’s being “polite.” Did comprehension suddenly leave you when Paul said he would be under the law even though he didn’t believe he was under the law? That’s called pretending; being a fake. What depth of justification will you stoop for a pretender? Rhetorical, because the answer is obvious! You will stoop!

    Me: Gal 5:14 Paul says the “whole law” was fulfilled in one word, meaning the entire law, For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” I think he missed the other part of the “law” “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.”

    You: I am really curious to know the direction you are under, what you put forth is it all from your own accord or are you posting from what you gained from someone else?

    Me: What “direction” I’m under?? Am I under the influence of another? Are you kidding me!?!? Can you not read and comprehend what Paul said? He said the “whole law”, everything God told Moses, was to love your neighbor as yourself. Am I taking things to literally? Paul is the one who said the “whole law” meaning the entire law was based on loving you neighbor. There is the part of loving God he left off. I don’ t care what he said to other churches, it’s what he said to Galatia. There is nothing you can say nor any dance you can do to get around what he said; he said ALL the law was summed up in one command and Jesus gave two and the greatest was to love God and Paul didn’t think God was worthy enough to include.

    You then site I John as proof to Paul’s understanding, except Paul was gallivanting all over eastern Rome would he have received this letter John wrote? Upon further investigation we find the letter to Galatians was written around AD 48 and it’s believed John wrote his letter around AD 95 -110. Unless we have another time traveling Paul; Paul wouldn’t have been “referencing” John. Guess again!

    #946134
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: DT, has lost his ability to “comprehend “, those thing it appears, by his arrogant, and hatred of brother PAUL.
    Me: Seriously!! Are you really this judgmental? Comprehension doesn’t evade me. Arrogance, sometimes, but I don’t believe I’ve ever exhibited it here. Hatred of Paul, I didn’t know Paul personally so how could I hate him? Am I exposing his lies, absolutely! Does that equate to hate or truth?

    How about this, man up and start answering questions or are you relying on Jodi to take care of you?

    #946135
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: Nothing in what you wrote supported why Jechoniah should be in the lineage of Jesus,

    Me: I agree!

    Thus as I am not that KEEN and as familiar as YOU ARE with the Hebrew scriptures I opted to do some research, THROUGH A JEW AND RABBINIC SOURCES.

    They also agree that God reversed the curse on Jeconiah, which they attribute to repentance on Jeconiah’s part. We even find the idea that the Messiah will descend from Jeconiah

    exactly the opposite of what some say is impossible!

    Some of these sources are as follows:

    1. Sources stating that Jeconiah repented and so God reversed the curse.

    Sanhedrin 37b-38a

    R. Johanan said: Exile atones for everything, for it is written, Thus saith the Lord, write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days, for no man of his seed shall prosper sitting upon the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah. Whereas after he [the king] was exiled, it is written, And the sons of Jechoniah, — the same is Assir — Shealtiel his son etc.(1) [He was called] Assir, because his mother conceived him in prison. Shealtiel, because God did not plant him in the way that others are planted. We know by tradition that a woman cannot conceive in a standing position. [yet she] did conceive standing. Another interpretation: Shealtiel, because God obtained [of the Heavenly court] absolution from His oath.(2)

    (1) I Ch. III, 17. Notwithstanding the curse that he should be childless and not prosper, after being exiled he was forgiven.
    (2) Which He had made, to punish Jechoniah with childlessness.
    –Soncino Talmud edition, with selected footnotes
    Pesikta de-Rab Kahana (5th c.)

    I accepted the repentance of Jeconiah: shall I not accept your repentance? A cruel decree had been imposed upon Jeconiah: Scripture says, This man Coniah is a despised, shattered image (‘sb) (Jer. 22:28), for Jeconiah, according to R. Abba bar Kahana, was like a man’s skull (‘sm) which once shattered is utterly useless, or according to R. Helbo, like a wrapper of reed matting that dates are packed in, which, once emptied, is utterly useless. And Scripture goes on to say of Jeconiah: He is a vessel that none reaches for with delight (ibid.), a vessel, said R. Hama bar R. Hanina, such as a urinal; or a vessel, said R. Samuel bar Nahman, such as is used for drawing off blood. [These comments on Jeconiah derive from] R. Meir’s statement: The Holy One swore that He would raise up no king out of Jeconiah king of Judah. Thus Scripture: As I live, saith the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim . . . were the signet on a hand, yet by My right, I would pluck thee hence (Jer. 22:24), words by which God was saying, explained R. Hanina bar R. Isaac, “Beginning with thee, Jeconiah, I pluck out the kingship of the house of David.” It is to be noted, however, that the Hebrew for “pluck thee” is not as one would expect ‘tkk, but the fuller and less usual ‘tknk, which may also be rendered “mend thee”–that is, mend thee by thy repentance. Thus in the very place, [the kingship], whence Jeconiah was plucked, amends would be made to him: [his line would be renewed].

    R. Ze’era said: I heard the voice of R. Samuel bar Isaac expounding from the teacher’s chair a specific point concerning Jeconiah, but I just cannot remember what it was. R. Aha Arika asked: Did it perhaps have some connection with this particular verse — Thus saith the Lord: Write ye this man childless, a man [who] will not prosper in his days (Jer. 22:30)? “Yes, that’s it!” said R. Ze’era. Thereupon R. Aha Arika went on to give R. Samuel bar Isaac’s interpretation of the verse: In his days Jeconiah, so long as he is childless, will not prosper, but when he has a son, then he will prosper by his son’s prosperity.

    R Aha bar Abun bar Benjamin, citing R. Abba bar R. Papi, said: Great is the power of repentance, which led God to set aside an oath even as it led Him to set aside a decree. Whence the proof that a man’s repentance led Him to set aside the oath He made in the verse As I live, saith the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim were the signet on a hand, yet by My right, I would pluck thee hence (Jer. 22:24)? The proof is in the verse where Scripture says [of one of Jeconiah’s descendants] In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel . . . the son of Shealtiel . . . and will make thee as a signet (Haggai 2:23). And the proof that a man’s repentance led God to set aside a decree He issued in the verse Thus saith the Lord: Write ye this man childless, etc. (Jer. 22:30)? The proof is in the verse where Scripture says, The sons of Jeconiah — the same is Asir — Shealtiel his son, etc. (1 Chron. 3:17). R. Tanhum bar Jeremiah said: Jeconiah was called Asir, “one imprisoned,” because he had been in prison (‘asurim); and his sons called “Shealtiel” because he was like a sapling, newly set out (hustelah), through whom David’s line would be continued.

    R. Tanhuma said: Jeconiah was called Asir, “imprisoned,” because God imprisoned Himself by His oath in regard to him; and Jeconiah’s son was called Shealtiel, “God consulted,” because God consulted the heavenly court, and they released Him from His oath.
    –Yale Judaica edition translated by William G. Braude and Israel J. Kapstein (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1975), pp. 376-77. Bracketed portions are Braude and Kapstein’s explanations.
    Leviticus Rabbah XIX:6 (5th-6th c.)

    The Holy One, blessed be He, then said: ‘In Jerusalem you did not observe the precept relating to issues, but now you are fulfilling it,’ as it is said, As for thee also, because of the blood of thy covenant I send forth thy prisoners out of the pit (Zech. IX, 11) [which means], You have remembered the blood at Sinai, and for this do ‘I send forth thy prisoners’. R. Shabbethai said: He [Jeconiah] did not move thence before the Holy One, blessed be He, pardoned him all his sins. Referring to this occasion Scripture has said: Thou art all fair, my love, and there is no blemish in thee (S.S. IV, 7). A Heavenly Voice went forth and said to them: ‘Return, ye backsliding children, I will heal your backslidings’ (Jer. III, 22).
    –Soncino Midrash Rabbah vol. 4, p. 249
    Pesikta Rabbati, Piska 47 (6th-7th c.)

    R. Joshua ben Levi, however, argued as follows: Repentance sets aside the entire decree, and prayer half the decree. You find that it was so with Jeconiah, king of Judah. For the Holy One, blessed be He, swore in His anger, As I live, saith the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim kind of Judah were the signet on a hand, yet by My right — note, as R. Meir said, that it was by His right hand that God swore — I would pluck thee hence (Jer. 22:24). And what was decreed against Jeconiah? That he die childless. As is said Write ye this man childless (Jer. 22:30). But as soon as he avowed penitence, the Holy One, blessed be He, set aside the decree, as is shown by Scripture’s reference to The sons of Jeconiah — the same is Assir — Shealtiel his son, etc. (1 Chron. 3:17). And Scripture says further: In that day . . . will I take thee, O Zerubbabel . . . the son of Shealtiel . . . and will make thee as a signet (Haggai 2:23). Behold, then how penitence can set aside the entire decree!
    –Yale Judaica edition translated by William G. Braude (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1968), vol. 2, p. 797.
    Numbers Rabbah XX:20 (date uncertain; 9th c.?)

    …no sooner had they repented, than the danger was averted, And the Lord repented of the evil (ib. XXXII, 14). And so in many places. For example, He said about Jekoniah: For no man of his seed shall prosper (Jer. XXII, 30) and it says, I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations . . . In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, will I take thee,

    O Zerubbabel, My SERVANT, the son of Shealtiel,

    saith the Lord, and will make thee as a signet (Hag. II, 22 f.). Thus was annulled that which He had said to his forefather, viz. As I live, saith the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim King of Judah were the signet upon My right hand, yet I would pluck thee thence (Jer. XXII, 24).
    –Soncino Midrash Rabbah vol 6, pp. 812-13
    Rabbi A. J. Rosenberg, on Jeremiah 22:30 (20th c.)

    In this, too, no man of his seed shall prosper, namely that no one will occupy the throne of David nor rule in Judah. Although we find that Zerubbabel, his great grandson, did rule over Judah upon the return of the exiles, the Rabbis (Pesikta d’Rav Kahana p. 163a) state that this was because Jehoiachin repented while in prison. They state further: Repentance is great, for it nullifies a person’s sentence, as it is stated: ‘Inscribe this man childless.’ But since he repented, his sentence was revoked and turned to the good, and he said to him, “I will take you, Zerubbabel, and I will make you a signet (Haggai 2:23). They state further: Said Rabbi Johanan: Exile expiates all sins, as it is said: “Inscribe this man childless,” and after he was exiled, it is written: ‘(1 Chron. 3:17) And the sons of Jeconiah, Assir, Shealtiel his son’–[Redak].
    –A. J. Rosenberg, Jeremiah: A New English Translation (New York: Judaica Press, 1985), vol. 1 p. 185. “Redak” is an acronym for Rabbi David Kimchi (13th c.), whose opinion Rosenberg cites.
    Encyclopedia Judaica

    Even the decree that none of his descendants would ascend the throne (Jer. 22:30) was repealed when Zerubbabel was appointed leader of the returned exiles (cf. Sanh. 37b-38a).
    –“Jehoiachin” (9:1319).

    2. Sources stating that the Messiah will descend from Jeconiah.

    Tanhuma Genesis, Toledot (8th-9th c.)

    Scripture alludes here to the verse Who art thou, O great mountain before Zerubbabel? Thou shalt become a plain (Zech. 4:7). This verse refers to the Messiah, the descendant of David. . . .From whom will the Messiah descend? From Zerubbabel.
    –Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu, translated by Samuel A. Berman (Hoboken, NJ: Ktav, 1996), p. 182.
    Rabbi A. J. Rosenberg on Jeremiah 22:24 (20th c.)

    Malbim calls to our attention that in the prophecy of Haggai (2:23), God says, “On that day I will take you, Zerubbabel, and I will make you like a signet,” for the King Messiah will be like a signet ring on God’s right hand, so to speak. Just as the name of the owner of the ring is engraved on his signet ring, through which he makes himself known, so will God’s name be known in the world through the King Messiah, through whom His miracles will be known. He says here that, though, in the future, Coniah will be the signet on My right hand, for the Messiah will spring from his seed, now I will remove him from there.
    –Ibid., p. 183. Malbim is an acronym for Meir Loeb ben Jehiel Michale, a 19th c. rabbi and commentator. 22:24.

    Jewish Encyclopedia

    Jehoiachin’s sad experiences changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii.30; Pesik., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b): he even became the ancestor of the Messiah (Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140]).
    –Louis Ginzberg, “Jehoiachin,” vol. 7 p. 84.

    Recalling:

    YOU: If the OT is obsolete, why do you continually reference it;

    it makes no sense. 

    Me: the only reason, I continually reference it.

    For the sake of truth!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946136
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, YOU said……..>No where did you articulate where in the Tanakh God said man is justified by following HIS commands. Answer the question!

    You: You don’t call a statue a “LAW”

    Me: You are correct you don’t call a “statue” a law; but “statutes” are; what are state statutes, if not state law?

    Cornell Law School: statute: A statute is a law enacted by a legislature.

    me…..Cornell is absolutely right, no statue is a “LAW” , “UNTILL” it has been “Enacted” by a “LEGISLATOR”, ( the one or ones who have power to make it a law) . God turned his loving statues into “LAWS” , BY “ENACTING” them as such at Mount Sinai as shown in Ex 20.

    Brother Paul was exactly right, in what he was saying,…> “the law came 490 years “AFTER” the promise to Abraham”.   That is when and where he (God), turned his LOVING commandments,  and statues into “LAWS”.

    Scriptures clearly  shows,  that Abraham’s “Faith” brought him the promises, not the obedience to “any”,  “Law” , because ” the LAW”, was not yet “ENACTED”. It wasn’t even written yet.  You can’t produce any where in the “TANAKH” , where it was written until Ex.20. 

    Simple as that for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

     

    #946137
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    AMEN Gene!

    God bless

    #946138
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Consulting the Talmud!?!? That’s not a path I would dare venture down at this point in my studies; I’m wanting to make sure I understand what God said first before trying understand the meanings behind what a bunch of sages debated.

    You quoted from Sanhedrin 37b – 38a “Rabbi Yoḥanan says: Exile atones for all transgressions and renders a sinner like a new person” If we are going to go with this statement, what is the purpose of Jesus when being in exile atones and make a sinner new? My guess there’s a deeper meaning behind those words.

    Where in the Tanakh does it say Jechoniah asked for forgiveness and was restored to the throne of David? He died in captivity just a Jeremiah prophesied.

    Copy and pasting an entire page from a website doesn’t really constitute as research; it just means you looked something up and re-posted it. Curious why you didn’t post the beginning portion when they were speaking about “three parts to the curse on Jechoniah” and how they claimed each of these “parts” never happened. Did you catch the twisting they did to God’s words? Probably not a site I would reference and use as a source; if they are twisting words here, were and how else are they twisting them?

    #946139
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant
    #946140
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I will allow you to continue beating that dead “law” horse; if you can’t comprehend the words written in front of you, that’s a personal problem and you will remain lost in your own ignorance. I will not allow you to drag me into your pit.

    I’ve asked you what commands, statutes, and laws God said Abraham kept and you keep running in this Pauline circle. Paul has nothing to do with what I’m asking. You keep citing Ex 20 and seem to be looking for “written law” Abraham followed; IT ISN’T WRITTEN LAW ABRAHAM WAS FOLLOWING!!! The question is, because there wasn’t a “written law” in Abraham’s time, WHAT COMMANDS, WHAT STATUTES, AND WHAT LAWS WAS ABRAHAM FOLLOWING! This isn’t that hard!!

    Either answer the question or stop wasting my time! Then you get an amen for the drivel your wrote; it’s like the blind leading the blind!

    #946141
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Who determines what the “truth” is?

    Whose “truth” is correct?

     

    #946142
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    The Bible is real, true, and the word of God.

    #946143
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Are you claiming Paul wasn’t being paid? How was Paul able to travel all over the eastern Roman Empire, unless he received financial support.

    ME: Uh NO,  I have absolutely no clue how in me saying false apostles are getting paid somehow equates to me declaring that Paul wasn’t receiving donations so that he could travel around to spread the gospel. Beyond me how you could come to such a conclusion. Fascinating that this absurdity is where your mind went instead of the point being made about the false apostles getting paid.

    YOU: To bad you missed what I was saying. I wasn’t speaking of when “collections” were taken to help others; I was speaking of his taking “payment” from others he was “teaching” but making a point that he wasn’t going to burden those in Corinth with “payment”, even though it was his “right” to do so. And boy did he let them know that, such humility. Did he ever say this to any other church? I don’t recall ever reading such statements to other churches. The point was why did Paul unashamedly use the term “robbing” other churches (isn’t there a commandment about stealing); and by saying this, he’s admitting he’s a thief. He wouldn’t take it from Corinth, but had no problem taking it from others. And you have no problem with it!??! To each their own.

    ME: I did not miss at all what you are saying, you just want to be very narrow minded with one passage it most now certainly seems and let your imagination provide meaning ignoring the surrounding context. I thought the verses I supplied would suffice, that it wouldn’t be needed to have to spell everything out for you.

    8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    2 Cor 8:13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 

    17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative. 18 And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel…24 Therefore show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it.

    2 Cor 9:. 2 For I know your eagerness to help, and I have been boasting about it to the Macedonians, telling them that since last year you in Achaia were ready to give; and your enthusiasm has stirred most of them to action.

    SOME SIMPLE FACTS FOR YOU DT!

    Paul previously asked Corinth for donations and received donations from Corinth. Paul even speaks to how their donations encouraged other churches to give.

    Pay attention here DT,

    Paul unto Corinth, “show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it.”

    Paul unto Corinth “your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. “THE GOAL IS EQUALITY”.

    So NO robbing at all DT and the goal Paul has among the churches is equality in giving and in giving shows your love. 

    DT, can you acknowledge the simple fact that Corinth was asked to give by Paul but then Paul didn’t want their donations anymore and such had a reason behind it?

    When Paul tells Corinth that he is robbing from other churches in continuing to serve them in the context that he is not going to take their money, he is reminding them of what the goal was supposed to be, that all churches were to give equally. The focus then becomes as to WHY then he doesn’t want their money, why is he telling them that he is not holding them to the goal, where without their part in the equality it’s like the other churches are being robbed.

    Paul tells us why,

    “12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.”

    “14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you.”

    DT it’s like you have no interest in context and understanding whatsoever, and in this negligence you slander Paul making assertions that are far from the truth.  

    Paul told Corinth how he boasted about their giving to other churches and he speaks to giving out of love.

    Paul finds out that they are giving to false apostles what does that say about their love for Paul’s ministry, for their love of the church? It draws it into question.

    Not only this but Paul has found them to be committing sin in a number of ways.  Paul wants them, he wants their sincere love and commitment for the gospel, not their money. He only wants donations out of love. He is not going to work on the same terms that the false apostles do. What kind of conscience would Paul have if he took their donations knowing full well it wasn’t out of love?

    DT, are you going to continue to assert that Paul was literally robbing churches, that he wasn’t actually receiving donations from those churches?

    DT, do you care to give your explanation as to why Paul asked Corinth for donations but then later he did not want their donations?

    DT, can you speak to the fact that Paul’s GOAL WAS FOR THE EQUALITY IN GIVING AMONG THE CHURCHES, INCLUDING CORINTH and to GIVE OUT OF LOVE?

    #946144
    carmel
    Participant

     

    .

    #946145
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Why would I go with an Aramaic translation when we have access to the Hebrew? You found an interesting translation; how long did it take for you to find that butchering of God’s word?

    KJV “Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.”

    NIV “This is what the LORD says: “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.”

    Douay-Rheims “Thus saith the Lord: Write this man barren, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for there shall not be a man of his seed that shall sit upon the throne of David, and have power any more in Juda.”

    Good News “This man is condemned to lose his children, to be a man who will never succeed. He will have no descendants who will rule in Judah as David’s successors. I, the LORD, have spoken.”

    Chabad “So said the Lord: Inscribe this man childless, a man who will not prosper in his days, for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David or ruling anymore in Judah.”

    Steinsaltz “So said the Lord: Write and mark this man, Konyahu, as childless, a man who will not succeed in his days; as, even if he will father children, no man of his descendants will succeed, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling anymore in Judah. This will be the end of both the man and the royal dynasty.”

    I really don’t have to analyze anything; I like to call it reading and comprehension. The words are right in front of you! None of Jechoniah’s descendants sat on David’s throne. What God didn’t say was HE wasn’t going to use any of Jechoniah’s descendants for HIS purpose. You are to heavily focused on the “signet ring” and it’s clouding your ability to think.

    If you don’t get it after this, live in your ignorance; this has become a waste of my time. When God said “As I live,” declares the Lord, “even though Jechoniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were a signet ring on My right hand, yet I would pull you off.”

    Another translation give a clearer perspective “The LORD says, As surely as I am the living God, you, Jechoniah, king of Judah, son of Jehoiakim, will not be the earthly representative of my authority. Indeed, I will take that right away from you.”

    Steinsaltz translation for another perspective “As I live – the utterance of the Lord – for even if Konyahu son of Yehoyakim king of Judah would be like a permanent signet ring upon My right hand, then even from there I would sever you.”

    This “signet ring” signifies God authority granted to the king and God removed it; not only from Jechoniah but from all his descendants. If the king of England has been dethroned, do any of his children have rights to the throne? Not at all! Since the writer of Matthew tells us Jesus is in this specific line, he would not be able to sit on the throne of David. The writer made a huge blunder. But the church has to make it work because if Jesus isn’t in this line the entire christian religion collapses. Not that it doesn’t already with the “conception” being of the “holy spirit” and NOT of a man in the line of David.

    #946146
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: @Carmel,

    Why would I go with an Aramaic translation when we have access to the Hebrew? You found an interesting translation;

    how long did it take for you to find that butchering of God’s word?

    ME: for the sake of the truth:

    ALL MY LIFE:

    FROM MY SIDE THAT’S WHAT YOU ARE DOING AS WELL!!! NO???

     

    HERE IS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR:

    https://mechon-mamre.org/about.htm#pisuq

    Jeremiah Chapter 22: 30 Thus saith the LORD: Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. 

    NOW READ AGAIN THE ARAMAIC HEREUNDER, AND EXPLAIN HOW AND WHERE GOD’S WORD IS BUTCHERED!

    ARAMAIC:

    Jeremiah 22:30 Thus says LORD JEHOVAH: “Write him, this accursed man, without sons. because a man from his seed shall not prosper in his days,
    a man who sits on the throne of David

    is authorized again in Yehuda

    Mechon Mamre and Our Work

    “Mechon Mamre” is Hebrew for “the Mamre Institute”.  Mamre is the name of the place where Abraham our patriarch lived (see Genesis 13,18).  Abraham is the forefather of both Jews and Gentiles who live by the instructions of God, and our site is intended for Jew and Gentile alike.

     

    Mechon Mamre is a small group of observant Jewish Torah scholars in Israel who live by the plain and simple meaning of the RaMBaM’s Mishneh Torah and actively encourage others to do so.  Most of us belong to the mainstream “Baladi” Yemenite Jewish community, continuing the tradition of living by the Mishneh Torah since the very days when the RaMBaM lived, and are students of the Rav Yosef ben-Dawid QaafiH zS”l (the leading rabbinical expert in recent generations on the teachings of the RaMBaM in general and on his Mishneh Torah in particular)……

     

    More to come!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946147
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    I have been to Mechon Mamre, but they use the JPS translation and am not really a fan of it as it reads very similar to the KJV. The positive with the JPS is they haven’t changed the tenses of verbs to make them appear to be referring to the future. Additionally, because I don’t know Hebrew, the site became pointless; so I found another.

    You: FROM MY SIDE THAT’S WHAT YOU ARE DOING AS WELL!!! NO???

    Me: This statement is very revealing; “my side”, which really means “my religion.” This goes back to when I first joined and commented on there being 30,000 different religions worldwide today, with each claiming theirs is the correct one and all others are wrong. Jesus says in Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.” Judging from the number of religions in the world today, I’d say Jesus has done a fantastic job. This side against that side; I’m right and your wrong – division! Your messiah came to divide the world, but the Messiah of the Tanakh is to unite it. In the book of Revelation, your messiah is going to bring destruction to the world, but the Messiah of the Tanakh is to bring peace. Something doesn’t align!!

    This is your “for sake of truth.” Does the Messiah of the Tanakh match the messiah of the Greek Testament?

    #946148
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi ou said……>”DT it’s like you have no interest in context and understanding whatsoever, and in this negligence you slander Paul making assertions that are far from the truth.”

    Jodi, not only does DT, “IGNOR CONTEXT”,  and make false assertions against, Paul, but also against Peter, and the other apostles and even Jesus Christ, himself,  but even against God himself, Because God sent sent Jesus and Jesus sent the apostles.
    DT, simply cherry picks scriptures and uses his “laser”. To focuses on a single word, to try to make his points,  he reminded me of the saying, “they strain out a gnat and swallow a camel”.

    Anyway, may God bring him back to the “true way” , again.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi, you do a great job of defending the truth here……….gene

    #946149
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hey there DT!

    YOU: You then site I John as proof to Paul’s understanding, except Paul was gallivanting all over eastern Rome would he have received this letter John wrote? Upon further investigation we find the letter to Galatians was written around AD 48 and it’s believed John wrote his letter around AD 95 -110. Unless we have another time traveling Paul; Paul wouldn’t have been “referencing” John. Guess again!

    ME: 

    I had said, “The below verse is not from Paul but a truth to which Paul knew and is to certainly be applied to what he said in Galatians 5.

    It’s a truth that Paul knew I never said it was a truth that Paul gained from John. I have studied the chronological order of the NT books FYI.

    Are John’s words a lie?

    If not, are you arguing that they are some sort of HUGE mystery that God ONLY revealed to John and up until John gave them, all other apostles were totally in the dark?

    Your position would then be held through your own assumption and I would say a pretty ridiculous one at that.

    Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Paul also taught,

    do all to the glory of God

    your work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward HIS NAME“.

    the things which God has prepared FOR THEM THAT LOVE HIM.

    in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time

    Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied.

    DT, are you arguing that Paul did NOT  teach that one must love God to inherit eternal life?

    Are you arguing that Paul’s passages do NOT tell us that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves TO THE GLORY OF GOD? 

    Paul did in fact know that which John also knew and spoke of, we read it in the below passage, 

    Hebrews 6:10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

    Paul teaches that one shows that he loves God (the first and great commandment) through loving our neighbor (the second commandment) AND LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW. 

    Think about that for a moment DT.

    The entire law then is indeed fulfilled in loving your neighbor, as loving your neighbor is the very act of showing God that you love him.

    #946150
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I couldn’t help but notice the conversation going on between you and Carmel involving the curse given to Jeconiah. I am going to post on the “Conception” thread to speak about this and hope that you will reply there.

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