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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • February 5, 2024 at 4:15 am#945963
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny and DT……..What Jodi HAS POSTED to you,   IS “TRUE AND RIGHT” 

    peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

    February 5, 2024 at 7:02 am#945964
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: the Hebrew word for “seed” in verse 18 is “zera” and means descendants or offspring. Some translations render “seed” as “children.” So it’s through the children (plural) of Abraham all nations will be blessed. God’s chosen people are to be a “light for the nations.”

    ME:

    Zera

    seed, sowing, offspring
    a sowing
    seed
    semen virile
    offspring, descendants, posterity, children

    “zera” meaning seed or offspring does not in and of itself equate to plural, that is nonsense. If I have one offspring, if I have one seed, if I have one zera, you want to tell me I actually don’t at all?  A firstborn child doesn’t become your seed until you have a second child now does it?

    Scripture does in fact use “zera” as singular

    Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed (zera)  instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

    that seed (zera) represents specifically Adam’s offspring, Seth, as in one seed.

    1 Samuel 1:11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child (zera), then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

    zera in this passage represents one child

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed (zera) after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    the above likewise speaks of one specific descendent/zera of David and this one seed of David is also the promised one seed of Abraham, who in him all nations would be blessed. 

    Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies.

    Genesis 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    The seed of Abraham that is multiplied as the stars of heaven and as the sand upon the seashore make up many nations. 

    22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    DT you say “it’s through the children (plural) of Abraham all nations will be blessed”, but those nations include their own nations, so then your position would need to be that all the children of Abraham are blessed through themselves. Your reaching this conclusion because you assert “zera” “seed” only means plural, which in fact it doesn’t.   

    As “zera” does in fact represent “a seed”, “a child” as in singular and we do in fact have other passages that speak of one child bringing forth peace upon all the earth, a blessing, I am going to render “thy seed” in verse 18 as singular.

    Psalms 2:1 Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the LORD and against his anointed, saying, 3 “Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.” 4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5 He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6 “I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” 7 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. 8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will break them with a rod of iron ; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.” 10 Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear and celebrate his rule with trembling. 12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    February 5, 2024 at 9:28 am#945965
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Wanted to get back to John 1 as reading through scriptures as of late, there is something that has stood out to me, scripture that speaks to a certain beginning, the beginning of the gospel being preached by Jesus.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    SO WAIT, does it makes sense that we have “In the beginning” and then “the same was in the beginning with God”?

    Could John be referencing two different beginnings? Such would certainly make a whole lot more sense.

    Could verse 1 be speaking of the beginning of Jesus being sent to speak God’s word, the beginning of the gospel being taught and verse 2 is telling us that such was in the very beginning with God?

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; …9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    John 6:63  It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the Words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    John 12: 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting, whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the Word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

    Luke 23: 4 Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man. 5 And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Luke 1: 1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the Word.

    Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, Promised before the world began

    2 Tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED for you FROM THE foundation of the world.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

    When the Spirit came upon Jesus and he was sent to speak the Word such was a beginning, the beginning of the Word of the Gospel, the beginning of the Word of the coming kingdom and the Word of eternal life.

    This Word was with God in Jesus and this Word was God.

    CLEARLY such is outlined below by John, 

    John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness…49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Further we know from the likes of  2 Timothy 1, Titus 1, 1 John 3 and Matthew 25, this same was in the beginning with God, having been prepared from the foundation of the world.

    Just as Mark 1 began with speaking of the beginning of the Gospel, preached by the anointed Jesus, this is exactly what John 1 began with in verse 1 as well!

    February 5, 2024 at 6:10 pm#945966
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: First of all you need to stop saying things like “is there a passage in the Tanakh (OT) that says…” and such the like. It’s pointless to someone who believes that the OT and the NT is God’s word. Do you do the same from one OT book with that of another, why not? Do you question what Isaiah says, if you can’t also find it written somewhere in Psalms?

    Me: Why shouldn’t one ask for passages from the Tanakh to support the NT? Isn’t the Tanakh the foundational text for the NT? Isn’t the Tanakh were the writings come from to support the “coming Messiah”? Don’t the writers of the NT quote the Tanakh? When a claim is made that states “according to scripture” or “as it is written”, shouldn’t we all demand a supporting text from the Tanakh and have a reference to it?

    If both the OT and NT are God’s word, why are they not aligned? One can say all day long they are; yet, when asked to explain why the messiah of the OT differs from the NT messiah – one is to bring peace and the other, violence – no one has an answer. One is to establish peace among the nations, the other is to destroy those who don’t believe in him. God says all nations will come to worship before him, while the writers of the NT tell the “unbeliever” they are condemned to hell (some say for eternity). It is written in Zechariah that ten none Jews will grab the hem of a Jew to learn more about HaShem (God). If all that are left are “christians” in the end, why would they want or need to learn more about God…don’t “christians” already “know” about God? What christian will seek the council of a Jew; you know, the one who missed your messiah and killed your Jesus.

    I have already established Paul is a lair. What’s humorous is no one challenged it; either all know he is a liar or are turning a blind eye to his deception or don’t recognize his deceitful tongue. Paul even admits to robbing the early church and christianity is fine with him stating it. Paul also teaches you are a worthless being; aren’t you created in the image of God? I think the only one who is worthless is Paul. Explain why the only time one reads “declares the Lord” or “says the Lord” in the NT is when it’s quoted from the OT? Why doesn’t God speak through these men giving HIS words as he did in the OT? Explain why there are differing interpretations of the same verse, with each religious sect giving their interpretation as right and the others as wrong. Explain how this can be if God gave these words in the NT; how can there be any confusion to what is being conveyed, if they truly came from “God”? How is your faith more “right” than another? God in NOT a God of confusion. So comparing the OT to the NT is like comparing apples to oranges.

    To compare the writings in the Tanakh to other writings within the Tanakh, you will find them to be congruent in their message. I think the most prominent would be were we find salvation in HaShem and not through a demi-god (offspring of a god and a mortal – spirit of God and Mary). I can’t possibly be the only one who sees this!?!

    Concerning Isa 46, you really need to read the chapter in its entirety; I think your missing something, there is nothing in this chapter that speaks of an individual person. If your focus is strictly verse 10, please put it into context before making assumptions.

    In Isa 11, this chapter is speaking of the Messiah but did you read anything about believing in the Messiah for salvation? The Messiah will do God’s will and God’s spirit will be upon him; when did Jesus put the wicked to death? Please don’t say when Jesus comes again because you will have to tell where it says in the Tanakh the messiah was to come twice; this is what the NT teaches, now support it with the words of HaShem.

    You: “zera” meaning seed or offspring does not in and of itself equate to plural, that is nonsense. If I have one offspring, if I have one seed, if I have one zera, you want to tell me I actually don’t at all? A firstborn child doesn’t become your seed until you have a second child now does it?

    Me: Scripture does in fact use “zera” as singular. Are you really nit-picking the word “zera”?!?! Of course zera can mean a singular descendant; but we are not speaking of a singular descendant are we? We’re talking about the future of Abraham’s seed, which as verse 17 states will multiply as the stars of heaven and since verse 18 begins with the conjunction “and” it is explicitly connected with verse 17 and is therefore speaking of many and NOT a singular seed that christianity associates to referring to Jesus. Context IS everything!! Let’s keep guessing or is it parroting…

    You also cite Isa 9:6, please read this link

    February 5, 2024 at 6:13 pm#945967
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene

    Are you going to continue to ride the coattails of Jodi or are you going offer your own thoughts?

    February 5, 2024 at 9:06 pm#945969
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:  Danny and DT……..What Jodi HAS POSTED to you,   IS “TRUE AND RIGHT” 

    ME: Gene read hereunder post #945861 from page 1266, ALL IN ITALIC, HENCE MY REPLY TO Jodi’s , GARABGE;

    USING Jodi’s LANGUAGE  PRECISELY HER REPLY TO MY POST TO HER HEREUNDER AND ALSO ADDRESSED TO YOU, AND ANSWER PLEASE!

     AREN’T YOU GOING TO SAY THAT WHAT

    Jodi POSTED TO ME WAS “NOT TRUE AND RIGHT” IN THE SAME WAY YOU DID ABOVE?

    HERE WE GO:

    Hi Jodi, 

    ME:  ONLY JESUS RECEIVED ALL THE ABOVE BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE, BUT NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED!

    YOU: There exists no scriptural support for what you have stated whatsoever.

    ME: WE’LL SEE AS WE PROCEED TILL I ANSWER ALL YOUR FALLACIES.

    You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

    As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit here and there.  The idea that the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and abode in him,

    but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

    Me: Jodi, YOU ARE COMPLETELY CONFUSED AND YOUR MINDSET REGARDING THE POWER OF THE FATHER AND THE FUNCTION AND TASKS OF THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT ONLY BLANK BUT A FALLACY, WITH EVERY RESPECT. YOUR COMMENT ABOVE IS ONLY FOCUSED ON THE HOLY GHOST.

    BUT IRONICALLY YOU LEFT OUT THE MOST VITAL PRECISELY:

    THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    Now read again what I said in my post:

    Me: Jodi and in this case Gene, WHERE DOES SCRIPTURE SAY THAT JESUS WAS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WHILE HE WAS IN THE WILDERNESS?

    Jodi IN THE ABOVE I USED THE TERM “IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT” THEN I SAID:

    JESUS WAS ONLY LED BY THE SPIRIT TO BE TESTED AS A HUMAN BEING IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN!

    AND SATAN, THE DEVIL, IS NOT THAT STUPID TO TEST THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    You:  He indeed had the power to make bread from stone.

    John5:19 Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you,

    the Son cannot do anything of himself,…..

    NOW READ AGAIN WHAT I SAID TO YOU:

    HOW ON EARTH COULD JESUS BE TESTED AND EVENTUALLY SIN IF HE WAS UNDER THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT?

    IT’S ILLOGICAL AND

    PURE NONSENSE!

    You: The idea that the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and abode in him,

    but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

     

    ME: YOU IN THE ABOVE ARE CONFUSED AND SAID THAT THE SPIRIT WOULD LEAVE HIM AND THEN DESCEND AGAIN.

    NO Jodi, IT’S WHAT YOU SAID IS COMPLETE GARBAGE I’M AFRAID!

    NOT THE SPIRIT WOULD LEAVE JESUS AT ALL, BUT

    THE POWER OF GOD WOULD NOT BE PRESENT AS GOD FEELS FIT!
    AS WE WILL SEE LATER THROUGH SCRIPTURE.

    THE POWER OF GOD AND THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY GHOST ARE TWO DIFFERENT PROCESSES. THERE’S A DIVINE PROCEDURE, THE FATHER, A SPIRIT, ALWAYS ETERNALLY ABIDES IN THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL, THEN BOTH ETERNALLY INDWELL THE SON, JESUS

    Well asserted in

    Isaiah 42:1 BEHOLD MY SERVANT, I will uphold him: my elect,

    MY SOUL delighteth in him: I have given MY SPIRIT upon HIM…..

    AS CLEAR AS A CRYSTAL Jodi,

     

    BEHOLD MY SERVANT….. HOW??
    JESUS PREEXISTED AS A SPIRIT BEFORE THE WORLD WAS AS

    THE EMBODIMENT AND CARRIER OF GOD THE FATHER,

    GOD’S SERVANT!

    AND IN BETWEEN THERE WAS/IS ALWAYS THE HOLY GHOST.

    GOD’S SOUL. TO BE CLEAR:

     

    THE SPIRIT, THE FATHER

    THE SOUL, THE HOLY GHOST, AND

    THE FLESH “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN.

    THE TRIUNE GOD!

     

    NOW WE ARE CREATED IN GOD’S IMAGE!

    IN SPIRIT, SOUL, AND FLESH!

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON!

     

    Now let’s read:

    Luke 1:34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35 And the angel answering, said to her:

    THE HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee, and

    THE POWER of the MOST HIGH shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    THE SON OF GOD.

    FIRST AND FOREMOST, FROM Luke ABOVE, WE ARE CERTAIN THAT THE POWER OF GOD IS THE ATTRIBUTE OF THE FATHER,

    NEVER OF THE HOLY GHOST ALONE AS SUCH. Well asserted also in

    Luke 22:69 But hereafter the Son of man shall be sitting on the right hand of

    THE POWER OF GOD.

    Jodi, JESUS IS SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER NOT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE HOLY GHOST OK?

    I REPEAT: THE POWER IS THE ATTRIBUTE OF THE FATHER AS HE FEELS FIT!

    THUS FROM THE FATHER THE POWER OF GOD PASSES UNTO THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL,  AND FROM AND THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST UNTO THE INDIVIDUAL, IN THIS UNIQUE AND MOST MYSTERIOUS DIVINE/HUMAN BLENDING CASE UNTO JESUS’ MOTHER, THE VIRGIN MARY.

    THUS, IN THIS PARTICULAR PROCESS OF THE INCARNATION OF GOD IN JESUS’ CONCEPTION OCCURRED, OR  SINCE MARY, THE WOMAN, IS ALSO INVOLVED, AT LEAST SEEMED TO OCCUR, TWO SEPARATE DIVINE PROCESSES Jodi! “FIRST”, THE ONE BY GOD’S MOST VERSATILE HOLY SPIRIT, IN THIS CASE, THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL, Isaiah 42:1, AND THEN, THE ONE BY THE POWER OF THE FATHER,

    THUS, IMMEDIATELY ON MARY’S CONSENT, ACCORDING TO GABRIEL’S DESCRIPTION, OCCURRED A UNIQUE CONSISTENT DIVINE PROCEDURE,

    WHEN THE HOLY GHOST INITIATED THIS COMPOUND PROCESS, AND HE CAME UPON AND OCCUPIED MARY’S WOMB “FIRST”, THEN IMMEDIATELY THE POWER OF THE FATHER FOLLOWED, OVERSHADOWED MARY, ATTENTION PLEASE, AND THE SON OF GOD, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE, NOT THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE YET, WAS FULLY FORMED SPIRITUALLY OF THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL.

    A PERFECT TRIUNE SPIRITUAL PROCESS BY GOD ORCHESTRATED BY

    THE POWER OF THE FATHER, WITHIN THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL, AND BOTH IN THE SON OF GOD.  Isaiah 42:1,

    THE TRIUNE GODHEAD EMBODIED IN JESUS’ SOUL, WITHIN MARY’S UNIQUE WOMB, AS “THE WORD”

    NOT YET MADE FLESH IN OUR HUMAN WORLDLY TERMS, HENCE; THE FACT THAT OCCURRED

    A DIVINE/HUMAN BLENDING, AS GOD INCARNATED IN JESUS’ IMMACULATE CONCEPTION, IN MARY’S WOMB.

    I REPEAT THROUGHOUT SPIRITUAL!

    NOTHING IN FLESH AND BLOOD YET!!!

    SOMETHING TO CHEW NOW, THOUGH YOU DON’T HAVE THE APPROPRIATE TEETH! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    AS GOD, INCARNATED IN JESUS’CONCEPTION IN MARY’S UNIQUE WOMB WAS NOT YET IN

    THE WORLD, SATANIC!

    BUT EQUALLY STILL IN HEAVEN.

    THE FACT THAT NEITHER SPERM NOR OVUM WAS PRESENT THERE!

    ONLY GOD’S TRIUNE GLORY IN HIS SPIRITUAL WORK!

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH IN GOD’S TERMS!

    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally;

    NOW THIS DIVINE PROCEDURE, WHERE THE HOLY GHOST ALWAYS INITIATES GOD’S WORK, IS EVIDENT THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE, IT’S HIS PARTICULAR TASK RIGHT FROM Genesis 1:2, THEN THE POWER OF THE FATHER FUNCTIONS ONLY AS GOD FEELS FIT FROM WITHIN.

    Well asserted hereunder:

    Acts 10:44 While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. 45And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46For they heard them speaking with tongues,

    and magnifying God.

    I JUST WANT TO ADD HERE THAT THE HOLY GHOST DID HIS WORK AND ANOINTED THE GENTILES EVEN BEFORE THEY WERE OFFICIALLY BAPTIZED, AND THEY SPOKE WITH TONGUES! 

    WHILE AT THE RIVER JORDAN, ACCORDING TO YOU AND Jodi, JESUS WAS FIRST ANOINTED AND THEN AFTERWORD, HE WAS IN FULL POWER, 

    GARBAGE????

    DESPITE THAT THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT IS NOWHERE TO BE READ, JUST ACRRY ON READING PLESE:

    47Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,

    who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?

    FROM THE ABOVE WE ARE AWARE THAT THE HOLY GHOST INITIATED HIS WORK FOR GOD AND DELIBERATELY OCCUPIED THE GENTILES EVEN BEFORE THEY WERE OFFICIALLY BAPTIZED.

    SIMPLY AS HE WAS ENRICHED BY THE UNIQUE AND THE MOST POWERFUL ATTRIBUTES OF JESUS CHRIST AS GODMAN ON EARTH, PRECISELY SENT FROM THE FATHER, BY JESUS CHRIST THE SUPREME RULER OVER ALL, AND PROPRIETOR OF ALL FLESH, ONLY POSSIBLE BY AND FROM JESUS’DEATH, HIS RESURRECTION, AND GLORIFICATION OFFICIALLY ON EARTH FROM PENTECOST, AGAIN ALSO IN THIS CASE

    BY THE INITIATION OF THE WORK OF GOD PRECISELY BY

    THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    NOW WITH CERTAINTY, WE KNOW THAT THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY GHOST IS DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THE FATHER AND HIS POWER. DESPITE THEY ARE EQUAL AND ONE IN EVERY SENSE, 

    AS ONLY THE FUNCTION IS DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT, THUS,

    FOR ONE TO BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST IS A PROCESS ON ITS OWN, AND TO BE FILLED WITH POWER IS ANOTHER OF THE FATHER, ESPECIALLY POWER WITHOUT MEASURE ONLY ENDOWED TO JESUS THE SON OF MAN, AFTER HE LEFT THE WILDERNES, FOR THE FULFILLMENT OF GOD’S GLORY ON EARTH!

    THOUGH A KIND AND A TEMPORARY LIMITED POWER COULD ALSO BE PRESENT, LIKE IN THE CASE IN Acts 10 ABOVE.

    You: You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

     

    All that in the next post!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    February 5, 2024 at 9:15 pm#945970
    carmel
    Participant

    Cont.

    HERE WE GO AGAIN FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH:

     

    Hi Jodi,

    You: You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

    Let’s read the scripture.

    Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report,

    full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom,

    whom we may appoint over this business. 4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. 5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude:

    and they chose Stephen,

     a man full of faith, and of the Holy Ghost,
    and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

    Jodi, ONLY STEPHEN OUT OF THE SEVEN SELECTED IS FULL OF FAITH AND THE HOLY GHOST!

    RIGHT?

    NOW, SCRIPTURE DIDN’T MENTION NEITHER THAT STEPHEN IS NOT YET IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, NOR THAT THE OTHER SIX WERE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST!

    ARE YOU READY TO CONCLUDE THEN AND ADD TO SCRIPTURE THAT SINCE STEPHEN IS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST IS ALSO FULL OF POWER, AND ALL THE OTHER SIX SELECTED ARE ALSO FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL?

    6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

    7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

    8 And Stephen, full of faith and power,
    did great wonders and miracles among the people.

    IN THE ABOVE, AGAIN, ONLY STEPHEN EVENTUALLY WAS GIVEN THE POWER AND PERFORMED GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES, AND WE ONLY KNOW ABOUT THIS IN VERSE 8, AFTER THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND THE NUMBER OF THE DISCIPLES WERE MULTIPLIED AND SO ON.

    THUS STEPHEN WAS FULL OF POWER NOT IMMEDIATELY WHEN HE WAS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    HIS NORMAL STATE EVEN BEFORE HE WAS SELECTED,

    BUT AFTER A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME, WHEN THE SEVEN WERE SELECTED AND THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND SO ON.

    I REPEAT: ARE YOU READY ALSO, IN THIS CASE, TO ADD TO SCRIPTURE AND CONCLUDE THAT ALL THE SELECTED WERE GIVEN THE POWER TO PERFORM GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES, LIKE IN THE CASE OF STEPHEN, AFTER ALL, THEY SUPPOSED, WERE ALSO FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST NO?

    NOW, THE FACT THAT STEPHEN WAS FULL OF POWER ONLY AFTER A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME, WHEN THE SEVEN WERE SELECTED AND THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND SO ON.

    ISN’T IT CLEAR ENOUGH, THAT TO BE FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST, IS NOT GUARANTEED THAT POWER IS ALSO GIVEN?

    NEVER MIND AUTOMATICALLY AND IMMEDIATELY.

    Now to:

    Luke 4:1 AND Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from the Jordan,

    Jodi, LIKE IN THE CASE OF STEPHEN, reading Luke above he only declared that Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost!

    ARE YOU READY TO ADD TO SCRIPTURE AND CONCLUDE THAT JESUS AUTOMATICALLY AND IMMEDIATELY WAS ALSO IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT?

    Acts 10:38 Jesus of Nazareth:

    how God anointed him with the Holy Ghost,

    and with power, …..

    AGAIN Jodi, IT IS MORE THAN CERTAIN IN THE ABOVE, THAT IT WAS NOT SUFFICIENT ENOUGH JUST TO SAY THAT JESUS WAS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    BUT ACTS HAD TO MAKE SURE AND CLEAR THAT

    JESUS WAS ALSO WITH POWER!

    IN LUKE 4:1 WE NEVER READ SUCH DECLARATION!

    ONLY YOUR FALLACY, AND NONSENSE! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    More to come!

    February 5, 2024 at 9:15 pm#945971
    carmel
    Participant

    Cont.

    HERE WE GO AGAIN FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH:

     

    Hi Jodi,

    You: You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

    Let’s read the scripture.

    Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report,

    full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom,

    whom we may appoint over this business. 4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. 5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude:

    and they chose Stephen,

     a man full of faith, and of the Holy Ghost,
    and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

    Jodi, ONLY STEPHEN OUT OF THE SEVEN SELECTED IS FULL OF FAITH AND THE HOLY GHOST!

    RIGHT?

    NOW, SCRIPTURE DIDN’T MENTION NEITHER THAT STEPHEN IS NOT YET IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, NOR THAT THE OTHER SIX WERE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST!

    ARE YOU READY TO CONCLUDE THEN AND ADD TO SCRIPTURE THAT SINCE STEPHEN IS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST IS ALSO FULL OF POWER, AND ALL THE OTHER SIX SELECTED ARE ALSO FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL?

    6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

    7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

    8 And Stephen, full of faith and power,
    did great wonders and miracles among the people.

    IN THE ABOVE, AGAIN, ONLY STEPHEN EVENTUALLY WAS GIVEN THE POWER AND PERFORMED GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES, AND WE ONLY KNOW ABOUT THIS IN VERSE 8, AFTER THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND THE NUMBER OF THE DISCIPLES WERE MULTIPLIED AND SO ON.

    THUS STEPHEN WAS FULL OF POWER NOT IMMEDIATELY WHEN HE WAS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    HIS NORMAL STATE EVEN BEFORE HE WAS SELECTED,

    BUT AFTER A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME, WHEN THE SEVEN WERE SELECTED AND THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND SO ON.

    I REPEAT: ARE YOU READY ALSO, IN THIS CASE, TO ADD TO SCRIPTURE AND CONCLUDE THAT ALL THE SELECTED WERE GIVEN THE POWER TO PERFORM GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES, LIKE IN THE CASE OF STEPHEN, AFTER ALL, THEY SUPPOSED, WERE ALSO FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST NO?

    NOW, THE FACT THAT STEPHEN WAS FULL OF POWER ONLY AFTER A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME, WHEN THE SEVEN WERE SELECTED AND THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND SO ON.

    ISN’T IT CLEAR ENOUGH, THAT TO BE FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST, IS NOT GUARANTEED THAT POWER IS ALSO GIVEN?

    NEVER MIND AUTOMATICALLY AND IMMEDIATELY.

    Now to:

    Luke 4:1 AND Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from the Jordan,

    Jodi, LIKE IN THE CASE OF STEPHEN, reading Luke above he only declared that Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost!

    ARE YOU READY TO ADD TO SCRIPTURE AND CONCLUDE THAT JESUS AUTOMATICALLY AND IMMEDIATELY WAS ALSO IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT?

    Acts 10:38 Jesus of Nazareth:

    how God anointed him with the Holy Ghost,

    and with power, …..

    AGAIN Jodi, IT IS MORE THAN CERTAIN IN THE ABOVE, THAT IT WAS NOT SUFFICIENT ENOUGH JUST TO SAY THAT JESUS WAS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    BUT ACTS HAD TO MAKE SURE AND CLEAR THAT

    JESUS WAS ALSO WITH POWER!

    IN LUKE 4:1 WE NEVER READ SUCH DECLARATION!

    ONLY YOUR FALLACY, AND NONSENSE! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    More to come!

    February 6, 2024 at 10:13 am#945974
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth, you said……….>@Gene

    Are you going to continue to ride the coattails of Jodi or are you going offer your own thoughts?

    DT……..“Those are my thoughts, and Jesus Christ thoughts to you all also”. If you were “truly” in Christ Jesus, they would be your thoughts also.  What point would it be for me to quote to you exactly what Jodi is showing you from our scriptures also?

    Even if Jesus Christ was here quoting those same scriptures you would not believe him either.

    peace and love to you and yours DT…………..gene

    February 6, 2024 at 11:26 am#945975
    carmel
    Participant

    H Jodi,

    Cont.

    You: As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit

    here and there.

    …. but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

     

    Me: Scripture again:

    Luke 5:17….. the POWER of the Lord was PRESENT to heal them.

    Jodi, READING THE ABOVE, CONFIRMS THAT,

    THE POWER OF THE FATHER, NOT OF THE HOLY GHOST, OK?

    WAS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT!!!

    I MAKE IT CLEAR AND REMIND YOU, IT DOES NOT SAY OR INDICATE THAT

    THE SPIRIT LEFT JESUS,

    BUT THE POWER WAS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT!

    SO THE FACT THAT JESUS WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND REMAINED ON HIM, DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE WAS ALSO AND ALWAYS INCESSANTLY FILLED WITH THE POWER OF GOD AT ALL.

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    DON’T ADD TO SCRIPTURE, PLEASE!

    Jodi, IT’S WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOVE IS COMPLETE GARBAGE!

    More scripture:

    Mark 6:5 And he could not do any miracles there,

    only that HE CURED a few that were sick, laying his hands upon them.

    AS CLEAR AS A CRYSTAL I’M AFRAID: Jodi!!!

    TWO DIFFERENT POWERS ARE MENTIONED ABOVE! 

    ONE TO PERFORM MIRACLES, NOT AVAILABLE, AND

    ONE TO JUST CURE BY LAYING HIS HANDS UPON THEM!

    NOW, JUST TO REMIND YOU:

    THE HOLY GHOST REMAINED IN JESUS AND HE FURNISHED JESUS ONLY WITH A TEMPORARY AND LIMITED POWER, TO JUST CURE BY LAYING HIS HANDS UPON, AND THIS IS ALWAYS ACCORDING TO THE FATHER’S WILL AND HIS POWER, WHO IS ALWAYS WITHIN THE HOLY GHOST, HIS SOUL, HIS UNIQUE ABODE, Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 48:16, IN JESUS’ SOUL FROM CONCEPTION BORN ON THIS PLANET WITHIN THE SON OF MAN, IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN. AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE CAN DO NOTHING DELIBERATELY OF HIMSELF, ONLY THE FATHER’S WILL, AND AS THE FATHER SHOWS HIM, THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE THE SON OF GOD.

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN IN THE ABOVE COULD NOT USE THE POWER OF THE FATHER WITHOUT MEASURE AND PERFORM MIRACLES, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    BECAUSE IT IS NOT INCESSANTLY IN HIM AND HIS, AT HIS DISPOSITION AS HE FEELS FIT AS SUCH!

    Now to:

    John 2:4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee?

    my hour is not yet come.

    Jodi, IN THE ABOVE JESUS, AFTER HE WAS BAPTISED, FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST, LEFT THE WILDERNESS, AND ABOUT TO COMMENCE HIS MINISTRY, CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS NOT YET IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT!

    THAT MEANS THAT JESUS NEVER HAD THE POWER OF THE FATHER NEITHER ON HIS BAPTISM NOR IN THE WILDERNESS!

    NOW ANSWER WHO TURNED THE WATER INTO WINE?

    Now to this particular scripture:

    John11:41 They took therefore the stone away. And Jesus lifting up his eyes said:

    Father, I give thee thanks that thou hast heard me. 

    Jodi, JESUS CONFIRMED THAT THE FATHER HEARD HIM!

    THAT MEANS THAT JESUS, NEVER JUST PERFORMED MIRACLES AND SO ON, DELIBERATELY BY HIS OWN WILL, AND POWER, BUT ALWAYS PRAYED TO THE FATHER BEFORE HE PERFORMED ANY TASK IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER. CONFIRMED AGAIN HERUNDER.

    42And I knew that thou hearest me ALWAYS;…

    THUS, FROM THE ABOVE WE ARE AWARE THAT JESUS DIDN’T POSSESS THE POWER OF THE FATHER WITHOUT MEASURE INCESSANTLY AS HIS OWN AND USED IT AS HE FELT FIT, BUT ACCORDING TO THE WILL AND FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, HERE IT COMES:

    THEN  HE RECEIVED IT FROM THE FATHER AT THE PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME, TO BE CONSUMED IMMEDIATELY, ONCE JESUS,

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD PRONOUNCED IT! Well hinted out in

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by THE WORD OF HIS POWER,…

    IN THE DESERT, JESUS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST FROM HIS CONCEPTION, NEVER POSSESSED THE POWER OF THE FATHER, THAT POWER WAS ONLY TO BE USED DURING JESUS’ PUBLIC LIFE FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AMONG HUMANS, AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME SATANIC! SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    ALSO, IN THE DESERT THE SUPERNATURAL POWER TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD WAS ONLY FOR JESUS’ GLORY, A POWER THAT JESUS NEITHER POSSESSED NOR WAS SUBJECT TO!

    You: As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit

    here and there.

    …. but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

    HEREUNDER, THOUGH NOT CONCERNING JESUS, WE CAN READ THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT FROM YOUR SIDE IS COMPLETE GARBAGE!

    FIRST let’s read:

    Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues,

     according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.

    NOW READ HEREUNDER:

    Acts 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings, and grant unto thy servants,

     that with all confidence they may speak thy word,

    30 By stretching forth thy hand to CURES, AND SIGNS, AND WONDERS TO BE DONE by the name of thy holy Son Jesus.

    31And when they had prayed,

    the place was moved wherein they were assembled;

    and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

     and they spoke the word of God with confidence.

    Jodi, WHAT ARE WE READING HERE? 

    WASN’T ENOUGH THAT THE APOSTLES WERE GIVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT ON PENTECOST?

    IN THE ABOVE THEY EITHER PRAYED AGAIN TO BE FILLED ANEW OR ELSE

    THEY PRAYED FOR AN ADDITIONAL POWER.

    OR IS IT THE CASE, THAT UNLESS THEY CONSTANTLY PRAY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT

    HE ABANDONS THEM?

    WHATEVER THE CASE, THE POWER IS NOT GIVEN ONLY ONCE AUTOMATICALLY ON THE FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST, AND INCESSANTLY IN THEM, 

     ESPECIALLY TO PERFORM GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES.

    WE CAN ALSO CONCLUDE, THAT WHILE THE SPIRIT WOULD BE FURNISHED DELIBERATELY BY GOD THE FATHER AS HE FEELS FIT, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE POWER IS ALWAYS FURNISHED THROUGH PRAYERS BY FAITH, AND IN SOME CASES EVEN FASTING, AND ONLY IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME TO BE CONSUMED, ALWAYS RELATED TO THE WORK TO BE PERFORMED,

     NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED.

    Well clear in

    Matthew 17:16

    Lord, have pity on my son, for he is a lunatic, and suffereth much: for he falleth often into the fire, and often into the water. 16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour.

    19Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? 20Jesus said to them:

    Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. 21But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    February 6, 2024 at 3:20 pm#945976
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You say no one can answer and I say try me! The OT and the NT align and the NT does not contradict with the OT, your just misinterpreting, I’d say. Mainstream Christian doctrine for certain creates contradiction with their false interpretations of the NT, but the word itself interpreted correctly does not.

    The NT provides more wisdom, more knowledge to the truth,  even concerning things from the past within the time of the OT, though it’s not written in the OT. Being given further understanding is great, essential, why we are given line upon line, verse upon verse, chapter upon chapter, book upon book. OT and NT are of ONE, we are given ONE TESTAMENT in my perspective.

    DT, if I believe the NT gives us additional/NEW wisdom and NEW understanding (even to the past) how does that work when you want me to prove it with the OT? That is what it seems you are trying to hold me and others to at times and it’s absurd. One thing to point out what you see as a contradiction and ask for an explanation, but the other is quite different and as said, it’s absurd, totally nonsensical. 

     

    February 7, 2024 at 4:13 am#945977
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: If both the OT and NT are God’s word, why are they not aligned? One can say all day long they are; yet, when asked to explain why the messiah of the OT differs from the NT messiah – one is to bring peace and the other, violence – no one has an answer. One is to establish peace among the nations, the other is to destroy those who don’t believe in him. God says all nations will come to worship before him, while the writers of the NT tell the “unbeliever” they are condemned to hell (some say for eternity).

    ME: What you are saying is simply not true, to the point it make me think you haven’t read much at all about the bible.

    Does not God destroy the wicked throughout the OT? Does he not punish and kill unbelievers, those who don’t put their trust and faith in God? Where have you been?

    I could give ample scripture but the below should suffice.

    Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Deut 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
    2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. 3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field…

    …15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store…long list of curses…22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

    Isaiah 11 is prophecy of the Messiah concerning his second coming where he will judge bringing blessing to God’s faithful and destruction to the wicked. 

    11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked…10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    A prophet would come and God would require the people to believe upon that which he spoke. This prophet is spoken of in Isaiah 11 and he most certainly destroys the wicked when he also brings peace upon the earth.

    Scripture does not teach eternal punishment nor does it teach the idea that every man has an immortal soul that then could be punished or blessed for eternity. This is a great topic that has had it’s own threads and we can discuss on one of those.

    February 7, 2024 at 4:13 am#945978
    Jodi
    Participant

    last post came up twice so I deleted this one

    February 7, 2024 at 5:02 am#945979
    Jodi
    Participant

    HI DT,

    YOU: It is written in Zechariah that ten none Jews will grab the hem of a Jew to learn more about HaShem (God). If all that are left are “christians” in the end, why would they want or need to learn more about God…don’t “christians” already “know” about God? What christian will seek the council of a Jew; you know, the one who missed your messiah and killed your Jesus.

    ME: 

    Who says a believer in Christ (who is himself a Jew), would ever know everything there is about God to a point they don’t need or would even want to learn more? No offense but where do you come up with this kind of crap? As we live our lives in God’s kingdom even then we will be forever learning about our heavenly Father.

    What exactly in the below passage tells you that this is after God’s eternal kingdom is set up where there exists only believers?

    Zech 8:20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: 21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also. 22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. 23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    Jesus is a Jew and I believe God was with him. Paul was a Jew and I believe God was with him, and you ask what “Christian” would believe a Jew, that’s a very ridiculous statement. David was a Jew and Solomon, I read their words as well to know more about God. Before Christ returns I will be continually reading words from Jews learning more and more from the bible, no doubt even afterwards too.

    February 8, 2024 at 4:52 am#945980
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    I have asked many questions; they may not have been specifically directed at you, but do remain unanswered.

    You say I’m “misinterpreting” the scripture because I say the NT doesn’t align with the Tanakh. I’m reading the words that are there. Let’s take a look why I say the book of Hebrews must be stripped from the bible and tell me if it aligns with the Tanakh or if the writer has an agenda they’re pushing.

    The first chapter of Hebrews is a plethora of twisting of God’s words claiming to be a reference to Jesus; let’s start in verse 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”?

    The first quote “you are my son, today I have begotten you” comes from Psa 2:7; read the entire chapter and this “son” is God speaking of David. The next phrase “I will be a father…son to me” comes from II Sam 7:14; read verses 8-17 to put this into context. If you did, did you discover this “Father” is God and the “son” is Solomon? Nothing here about Jesus as the writer claims; yet, I’m “misinterpreting” the scripture?!?

    Verse 6 “And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.” A reference to Psa 97:7 “All worshipers of graven images will be ashamed, yea those who boast of idols; all gods, prostrate yourselves before Him.” Here Hebrews says the angels are going to worship Jesus; yet, in the Psalms these graven images will be bowing before God. Funny, I see a mismatch.

    Verse 8-9 but of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.”

    This is a direct quote from Psa 45:6-7; since we can’t just make assumptions or believe the author of Hebrews is using the passage in the context it was written, the Psalm must be read in full. First you will notice it’s a Psalm from the “sons of Korah” (not written by David) AND it is meant for a “Royal wedding celebration” or a “Song of Loves.” It is written first to the king and describes the majesty and greatness of this king. Now comes verse 6-7, the writer is describing the throne this king sits upon and this throne was established by God – forever (I Chron 29:23 Solomon sat upon the throne of the Lord) (I Chron 17:16 God says to David your throne will be established forever) and will rule justly from the throne. Because this king loves righteousness and hates wickedness, he has been anointed to be above his peers. Do verses 2-5 give an accurate description of Jesus? Maybe he’ll be that the second time he returns and apparently will be getting married too, verses 9-17.

    Moving onto verse 10 (remember in verse 8 “But of the son He says”) AND, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands”; taken from Psa 102:25; but let’s include 24 for context, 24 I say, “My God, do not carry me off from my life in the middle of my days.” Your years continue throughout all generations. 25 Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” The writer of Hebrews once again butchers the meaning of the Psalm they are quoting claiming Jesus laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are his works, when in fact it’s God who accomplished this. Verse 11-12 is more of the same giving Jesus the credit for what God actually did.

    Onto verse 13 “But to which of the angels has He ever said, “Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies A footstool for Your feet”? A quote from Psa 110:1 “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” This has to be one of the most corrupt passages to push the christian agenda. While the KJV will state David wrote this Psalm, the Hebrew translated actually says “To/Of David a Psalm” or “Regarding David, a Psalm.” In other words the Psalm was written to David and NOT a Psalm written by him. All you need to do is copy/pasted the Hebrew into a translator. This isn’t a simple mistake of translation, this is corruption/deception of the text. With the real translation of Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:41-46 makes absolute zero sense; do you believe the pharisees who read, wrote, and spoke Hebrew and studied the Tanakh where really baffled by Jesus’ question to the point they didn’t ask anymore question? This story is laughable, but digress.

    The above came from the first chapter of the book of Hebrews and there are 12 more to go. If the first one is this corrupt, the rest will be just as bad.

    For giggles, how about one more passage where the author didn’t like the original text and just changed it. Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he said, “Behold, the days come”, says the Lord, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn’t continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them,” says the Lord.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.

    Are you telling me the last part matches and have the same meaning!?!? The unknown author of Hebrews says God “disregarded” HIS chosen people; God no longer cared for them because they broke his covenant? Fortunately when reading what God actually said one receives the truth; God was like a husband to them. What does a loving husband do to a spouse who hurts him? According to Hebrews throws her out.

    For you these passages sited are aligned!?!? I see corruption; I see misuse; I see lies! But you have the freewill to believe as you wish.

    February 8, 2024 at 7:11 am#945981
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: What you are saying is simply not true, to the point it make me think you haven’t read much at all about the bible.

    Me: Is this like me telling you to read the prophets and you becoming offended?

    You: Does not God destroy the wicked throughout the OT? Does he not punish and kill unbelievers, those who don’t put their trust and faith in God? Where have you been?

    Me: We are NOT speaking of the judgments God has or does to mankind; we’re speaking of what the messiah of the OT and NT are to accomplish when they arrive AND are they the same.

    You quote Deut 18:18-19, why did you stop at 19? Let’s continue through to the end “20 However, the prophet that behaves presumptuously by speaking a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, and who speaks in the name of other gods, then that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say to yourself, ‘How can we know the word that Yahweh has not spoken to him?’ 22 Whenever what the prophet spoke in the name of Yahweh, the thing does not take place and does not come about, that is the thing that Yahweh has not spoken to him. Presumptuously the prophet spoke it; you shall not fear that prophet.” What is God really saying, is HE saying a single man will be raised up (a “messiah”) or is God saying there will be prophets in the coming generations to lead and guide the nation of Israel just as Moses has? Then it goes on to say you will know if this “prophet” is from God or not; why would this be here if it was a reference to Jesus? Jesus being the perfected man and why would Jesus speak anything God hasn’t commanded. This isn’t a reference to Jesus at all, but to future prophets and God telling them how you can discern if the prophet is from HIM or not (we read God is testing Israel with false prophets in Deut 13:1-5; didn’t Jesus say to follow him). Verse 16 tells you why God said he would raise up a prophet after Moses and said the people spoke correctly, because the people feared the voice of God. And you have the gall to say I misunderstand or haven’t read much of the bible…

    Next you quote Deut 28, what does this have to do with a messiah? This chapter is a warning to the nation, either follow God’s commands or you will be judged.

    In Isa 11:1-10 I read nothing about a “second coming”; I read of the characteristics and the type of peace that will encompass the earth when the Messiah comes. We know of this happen when Jesus was here in the first century; so now let’s take this passage and justify it as being when Jesus returns again…how convenient. I’m going to help you, there is nothing in the Tanakh that says the messiah is to show up twice. Since you say to “try you” to answer a question, is the messiah of the OT the same as the messiah of the NT?

    Let’s take a look at Zech 8, keeping in mind “In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.” The Jews that hold to Judaism will all be dead because they didn’t accept the Jesus, so the only ones left are the “Messianic Jews”, which believe the same as today’s “christians”, other than incorporating Jewish customs in their “worship.” Please explain what will be taught that will be new, both sects believe the same.

    February 8, 2024 at 9:07 pm#945982
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: You say no one can answer and I say try me!

    ME: I DID TRY YOU AND TWICE POSTED THE SAME THREE POSTS, ALL OF THEM IN THIS PAGE ABOVE   REGARDING

    THE FULL POWER OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE,

    GIVEN TO JESUS ONLY AFTER HE LEFT THE WILDERNESS! 

    You: but the word itself interpreted correctly does not.

    THAT’S IT Jodi!!!

    FIND THE WORD ITSELF, INTERPRET IT CORRECTLY, CONTRADICT  THE SCRIPTURES IN MY POSTS, AND SHOW US WHERE JESUS WAS IN FULL POWER OF THE SPIRIT INCESSANTLY, FROM THE MOMENT HE WAS BAPTIZED  IN THE RIVER JORDAN, TILL HE DIED ON THE CROSS AS A HUMAN BEING IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN THAT PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME:

    WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT! 

    YOU: The OT and the NT align and the NT does not contradict with the OT, your just misinterpreting, I’d say. Mainstream Christian doctrine for certain creates contradiction with their false interpretations of the NT,

    but the word itself interpreted correctly does not.

    Scripture:

    Luke 5:36 And he spoke also a similitude to them: That no man putteth a piece from a new garment upon an old garment; otherwise he both rendeth the new,

    and the piece taken from the new agreeth not with the old.

    37And no man putteth new wine into old bottle: otherwise the new wine will break the bottles, and it will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. 38But new wine must be put into new bottles;

    and both are preserved.

     

    39And no man drinking old, hath presently a mind to new:

    for he saith, The old is better.

     

    THE ABOVE IS ONLY A GLIMPSE.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    February 9, 2024 at 5:05 am#945983
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put MY WORDS in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    The book of John lays it out clearly!

    John 14: 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    John 1: 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh THE WORDS of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    John 6:63  It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the Words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    John 1: 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    John 12:41 These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. 42 Nevertheless  among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting, whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    WHAT IS THE GLORY ISAIAH SAW IN HIM?

    The Father is in Jesus of Nazareth

    The Father’s Spirit came to abode in Jesus 

    Jesus speaks the words of the Father for the Father is in him.

    He whom God has sent speaks the word of God for God gave His Spirit unto him without measure. 

    The words that Jesus speaks, they are Spirit and they are life.

    Jesus speaks what the Father commands, his commandment is life everlasting. 

    Isaiah saw God IN Jesus, He saw God’s Spirit aboding in him.

    Ephesians 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness righteousness and TRUTH

    John 14: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    YOU HAVE TO BE UTTERLY BLIND not see EXACTLY what verse 14 speaks of.

    The WORD IS THE FATHER, HIS SPIRIT BEGOTTEN IN Jesus bearing the fruit of all goodness, righteousness and TRUTH.

    Biblical facts,

    God promised eternal life before the world began.

    The Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    The Spirit came to abode in Jesus where he spoke the truth of God’s coming kingdom. He declared that a man must be born again born of the Spirit to enter God’s kingdom.  He declared that we would drink of the cup of the one Spirit that he drinks of but it is up to God to determine who sits on his right or his left in God’s kingdom.

    The Spirit came to abode in Jesus, where he spoke of his own death and resurrection and gave promise to our own resurrection. Believing upon the word Jesus spoke, which concerned himself and God’s Spirit being in him we are promised eternal life.

    God had promised unto a son of man, the son of David that He would become a Father to him, that he would settle him into His kingdom and give him an eternal throne. We see Jesus having been begotten of God’s Spirit, die, be raised from the dead and enter into God’s kingdom.

    THE WORD IS THE FATHER, it is HIS SPIRIT to the cause of righteousness which brings forth eternal life.

    THE WORD became FLESH, the Father came to abode in Jesus and it brought forth righteousness to eternal life. When Jesus was raised from the dead he RECEIVED THE PROMISED SPIRIT and WAS EXALTED TO GOD’S RIGHT HAND.

    When Jesus received the Spirit and was sent out that was the beginning of the Word. The word was with God in Jesus (God’s Spirit in him) and was God.

    This was exactly God’s promise from the beginning, and why all things God created He did so by reason of and for the anointed Jesus, for the son of Man he promised to become a Father to and make him an eternal king.

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.

    Clear to see!

    Jesus had the Spirit come to abode in him, the Spirit that brings forth righteousness to eternal life, God was in him. From that beginning he spoke the words of eternal life, which is God’s Spirit coming to dwell in you, being born of the Spirit being born of God unto righteousness to enter His eternal kingdom. Jesus was resurrected and the WORD was made true in him. He received the promised Spirit, God living in him forevermore.

    February 9, 2024 at 7:27 am#945984
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    YHWH without his Son Jesus Christ doesn’t work.
    You need them both.
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    God bless

    February 9, 2024 at 10:45 am#945985
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    THE WORD IS THE FATHER, it is HIS SPIRIT to the cause of righteousness which brings forth eternal life.

    Me

    From John We know that

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the)God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.

    Textus Receptus 1550 v.1
    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς👉 τὸν θεόν καὶ 👉θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

    τὸν θεόν  👉the God 

    θεὸς 👉 God

    Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550. v2
    οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς 👉τὸν θεόν

    τὸν θεόν 👉 the God

     

    The WORD was not 👉 the GOD(THE FATHER)

    THE Word was WITH THE GOD

    AND THE WORD WAS 👉GOD

    🙏

     

     

     

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