John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #945866
    carmel
    Participant

    H Jodi,

    You: As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit

    here and there.

    …. but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

     

    Me: Scripture again:

    Luke 5:17….. the POWER of the Lord was PRESENT to heal them.

    Jodi, READING THE ABOVE, CONFIRMS THAT,

    THE POWER OF THE FATHER, NOT THE HOLY GHOST, OK?

    WAS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT!!!

    I MAKE IT CLEAR AND REMIND YOU, IT DOES NOT SAY OR INDICATE THAT

    THE SPIRIT LEFT JESUS,

    BUT THE POWER WAS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT!

    SO THE FACT THAT JESUS WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND REMAINED ON HIM, DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE WAS ALSO AND ALWAYS INCESSANTLY FILLED WITH THE POWER OF GOD AT ALL.

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    DON’T ADD TO SCRIPTURE, PLEASE!

    Jodi, IT’S WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOVE IS COMPLETE GARBAGE!

    More scripture:

    Mark 6:5 And he could not do any miracles there,

    only that HE CURED a few that were sick, laying his hands upon them.

    AS CLEAR AS A CRYSTAL I’M AFRAID: Jodi!!!

    TWO DIFFERENT POWERS ARE MENTIONED ABOVE! 

    ONE TO PERFORM MIRACLES, NOT AVAILABLE, AND

    ONE TO JUST CURE BY LAYING HIS HANDS UPON THEM!

    NOW, JUST TO REMIND YOU:

    THE HOLY GHOST REMAINED IN JESUS AND HE FURNISHED JESUS ONLY WITH A TEMPORARY AND LIMITED POWER, TO JUST CURE BY LAYING HIS HANDS UPON, AND THIS IS ALWAYS ACCORDING TO THE FATHER’S WILL AND HIS POWER, WHO IS ALWAYS WITHIN THE HOLY GHOST, HIS SOUL, HIS UNIQUE ABODE, Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 48:16, IN JESUS’ SOUL FROM CONCEPTION BORN ON THIS PLANET WITHIN THE SON OF MAN, IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN. AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE CAN DO NOTHING DELIBERATELY OF HIMSELF, ONLY THE FATHER’S WILL, AND AS THE FATHER SHOWS HIM, THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE THE SON OF GOD.

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN IN THE ABOVE COULD NOT USE THE POWER OF THE FATHER WITHOUT MEASURE AND PERFORM MIRACLES, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    BECAUSE IT IS NOT INCESSANTLY IN HIM AND HIS, AT HIS DISPOSITION AS HE FEELS FIT AS SUCH!

    Now to:

    John 2:4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee?

    my hour is not yet come.

    Jodi, IN THE ABOVE JESUS, AFTER HE WAS BAPTISED, FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST, LEFT THE WILDERNESS, AND ABOUT TO COMMENCE HIS MINISTRY, CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS NOT YET IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT!

    THAT MEANS THAT JESUS NEVER HAD THE POWER OF THE FATHER NEITHER ON HIS BAPTISM NOR IN THE WILDERNESS!

    NOW ANSWER WHO TURNED THE WATER INTO WINE?

    Now to this particular scripture:

    John11:41 They took therefore the stone away. And Jesus lifting up his eyes said:

    Father, I give thee thanks that thou hast heard me. 

    Jodi, JESUS CONFIRMED THAT THE FATHER HEARD HIM!

    THAT MEANS THAT JESUS, NEVER JUST PERFORMED MIRACLES AND SO ON, DELIBERATELY BY HIS OWN WILL, AND POWER, BUT ALWAYS PRAYED TO THE FATHER BEFORE HE PERFORMED ANY TASK IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER. CONFIRMED AGAIN HERUNDER.

    42And I knew that thou hearest me ALWAYS;…

    THUS, FROM THE ABOVE WE ARE AWARE THAT JESUS DIDN’T POSSESS THE POWER OF THE FATHER WITHOUT MEASURE INCESSANTLY AS HIS OWN AND USED IT AS HE FELT FIT, BUT ACCORDING TO THE WILL AND FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, HERE IT COMES:

    THEN  HE RECEIVED IT FROM THE FATHER AT THE PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME, TO BE CONSUMED IMMEDIATELY, ONCE JESUS,

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD PRONOUNCED IT! Well hinted out in

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by THE WORD OF HIS POWER,…

    IN THE DESERT, JESUS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST FROM HIS CONCEPTION, NEVER POSSESSED THE POWER OF THE FATHER, THAT POWER WAS ONLY TO BE USED DURING JESUS’ PUBLIC LIFE FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AMONG HUMANS, AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME SATANIC! SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    ALSO, IN THE DESERT THE SUPERNATURAL POWER TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD WAS ONLY FOR JESUS’ GLORY, A POWER THAT JESUS NEITHER POSSESSED NOR WAS SUBJECT TO!

    You: As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit

    here and there.

    …. but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

    HEREUNDER, THOUGH NOT CONCERNING JESUS, WE CAN READ THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT FROM YOUR SIDE IS COMPLETE GARBAGE!

    FIRST let’s read:

    Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues,

     according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.

    NOW READ HEREUNDER:

    Acts 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings, and grant unto thy servants,

     that with all confidence they may speak thy word,

    30 By stretching forth thy hand to CURES, AND SIGNS, AND WONDERS TO BE DONE by the name of thy holy Son Jesus.

    31And when they had prayed,

    the place was moved wherein they were assembled;

    and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

     and they spoke the word of God with confidence.

    Jodi, WHAT ARE WE READING HERE? 

    WASN’T ENOUGH THAT THE APOSTLES WERE GIVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT ON PENTECOST?

    IN THE ABOVE THEY EITHER PRAYED AGAIN TO BE FILLED ANEW OR ELSE

    THEY PRAYED FOR AN ADDITIONAL POWER.

    OR IS IT THE CASE, THAT UNLESS THEY CONSTANTLY PRAY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT

    HE ABANDONS THEM?

    WHATEVER THE CASE, THE POWER IS NOT GIVEN ONLY ONCE AUTOMATICALLY ON THE FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST, AND INCESSANTLY IN THEM, 

     ESPECIALLY TO PERFORM GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES.

    WE CAN ALSO CONCLUDE, THAT WHILE THE SPIRIT WOULD BE FURNISHED DELIBERATELY BY GOD THE FATHER AS HE FEELS FIT, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE POWER IS ALWAYS FURNISHED THROUGH PRAYERS BY FAITH, AND IN SOME CASES EVEN FASTING, AND ONLY IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME TO BE CONSUMED, ALWAYS RELATED TO THE WORK TO BE PERFORMED,

     NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED.

    Well clear in

    Matthew 17:16

    Lord, have pity on my son, for he is a lunatic, and suffereth much: for he falleth often into the fire, and often into the water. 16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour.

    19Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? 20Jesus said to them:

    Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. 21But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #945893
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Hi Carmel,

    You: ONLY JESUS RECEIVED ALL THE ABOVE BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE, BUT NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED!

    ME: There exists no scriptural support for what you have stated what so ever. You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

    As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit here and there.  The idea that the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and abode in him, but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

     

    Hi Jodi, I POSTED THREE CONSECUTIVE POSTS AS A REPLY TO YOUR COMMENT ABOVE!

    YOU OPTED TO REMAIN SILENT!

    I DON’T BLAME YOU!

    IN MY POSTS, I MADE IT CLEAR THROUGH SCRIPTURE, THAT YOUR BELIEF THAT JESUS WAS FULL OF POWER WITHOUT MEASURE WHILE BEING TESTED IS A COMPLETE CONTRADICTION TO THE TRUTH!

    I MEAN: THAT JESUS WAS IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN WITH A FREE WILL, AND NOT YET SUBJECT TO THE FATHER’S ONLY WILL AT ALL COSTS FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER  TO BE USED ONLY IN HIS PUBLIC LIFE AMONG SATANIC HUMANS. ATTENTION PLEASE:

    NOT WHILE BEING IN THE WILDERNESS AMONG SCORPIONS AND BEASTS, AND ONLY FOR THE GLORY OF JESUS FULL OF HUNGER!!!!!!!!!!!

    YOUR SILENCE CONFIRMS IT!

    IN THE MEANTIME JUST TO REMIND YOU:

     

    WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF JESUS BEING  HUNGRY TRIED TO DO HIS WILL AND TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    SINCE JESUS WOULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF,

    WITHOUT POWER!!!!

    WOULD THE FATHER HAVE ACCEPTED AND DID WHAT JESUS WANTED TO DO?

    I MEAN HE TURNED THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    I AM WAITING!

    IN THE MEANTIME I’M AFRAID I ALSO HAVE TO REPEAT WHAT I ASKED YOU AGAIN AS IT STILL STANDS:

    Luke 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

    WHAT DID THE DEVIL MEAN WHEN HE ASKED JESUS TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    IF SATAN WAS CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS A MERE MAN,

    NOT THE SON OF GOD!!!

    WASN’T HE ALSO CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PERFORM SUCH A POWERFUL DEED? HE WAS NO?

    SO WHAT DID HE MEAN REALLY, WITH THAT KIND OF EXTRAORDINARY STATEMENT?

    WAS HE SO CONVINCED THAT HE WAS NOT ONLY PROVOKING JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, A MERE HUMAN,

    BUT ALSO BY THE LOOK OF IT, EVEN PULLING JESUS’ LEG?

    Now to:

     

    Matthew 4:11: Then the devil left him;

     and behold angels came and

     MINISTERED TO HIM.

    Hold on Jodi,

    DIDN’T THE DEVIL LEAVE JESUS, AND THE TEMPTATIONS END?

    WHERE ABOUT IS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT THEN?

    ONLY ANGELS, AND THROUGHOUT JESUS’ LIFE, ONLY IN THIS UNIQUE MOMENT WHILE BEING IN THE WILDERNESS MINISTERED TO JESUS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945916
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    I still believe that Jesus pre-existed. John 8:58!

    God bless

    #945917
    Berean
    Participant

    AMEN! DD

     

    #945920
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Danny,

    Yes, John 8:58 is quite a popular passage people like to give as proof of pre-existence.

    I am fully aware of this passage and read it through clearly given truths and within the context of the chapter.   Having correct interpretation of a passage comes through applying scripture with scripture, applying simple logic is helpful too!

    Danny, I hope you will realize that you are interpreting Jesus’s words from verse 56 and 58 just like the blind unbelieving Jews did. They were entirely wrong, why in the world would one think they have good understanding?

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. (“the Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners”)

    John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he (Danny, the “he” is added, actually a number of times that Jesus says “I am” translators add in a “he” ,just keep that in mind), ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

    37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    Danny, also keep this in mind, that in the very same chapter Jesus tells us that what he speaks is what he has heard from the Father, that which he speaks is what he has seen from his Father. 

    40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (he).

    What is “my day” that Jesus referred to, that Abraham saw and rejoiced over? More importantly, did the Jews understand his speech? Of course not, made obvious to us by their question in response to what he had said. 

    Abraham didn’t SEE Jesus, he saw a prophecy of Jesus to which is what Abraham rejoiced over. 

    You think what Abraham saw, might have anything to do with, 

    John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    John 11:25 “I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

    Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED for you FROM THE foundation of the world.

    1. Abraham saw prophecy of the Messiah and rejoiced (Abraham didn’t literally see Jesus in his day as the ignorant unbelieving Jews were thinking).

    2. Jesus saw Abraham rejoicing over the Messiah through God’s Spirit (Jesus didn’t see Abraham because he lived during the time of Abraham as the Jews so ignorantly thought he was trying to declare), Jesus saw Abraham because he is the Messiah, speaking that which he hears and sees from the Father.

    Jesus has been declaring himself to be the Messiah but the Jews continuously deny him and fail to understand his words nor of course believe they are words from God. Verse 57 is just one more example of that, prior in the chapter they thought Jesus was saying that he was going to kill himself. 

    Danny, you really think the Jews were hearing Jesus correctly in verse 56, the message was about Abraham literally seeing Jesus and Jesus living in Abraham’s day literally see him? Or was the message about Abraham believing in and rejoicing over the Messiah and that Messiah is him? In the context of the chapter is Jesus teaching he pre-existed or is he out teaching that he is the promised Son of Man anointed (Christos) of God’s Spirit?

    No doubt what Abraham saw would be Jesus as the Messiah, as the eternal king, as the resurrection and the life to which Abraham would himself receive, to which Jesus tells us was prepared before Abraham even was, it was prepared from the foundation of the world. 

    Just think about the facts here, they responded and said “thou has seen Abraham?” and the truth is yes, but not in the way their ignorant unbelieving minds thought he was saying.

    Jesus spoke of Abraham having seen Abraham rejoicing over his day through the Father giving him that truth to speak. Jesus also saw from the Father another truth, “before Abraham was, I AM (he)”, the very person that had been promised to come long before Abraham lived, he is the promised Messiah declared by God from the foundation of the world.

    Danny, is it not a significant truth that God had declared a coming savior before the world even was, before David, before Moses, before Abraham ever lived? 

    The message Danny in verse 56 is NOT that Jesus existed during the time of Abraham now is it?

    Neither is the message in verse 58 teaching us Jesus existed even before Abraham. Come on, do you have eyes to see?!! 

    Just as Jesus is teaching he is the Messiah in verse 56, he is doing the same in verse 58. The Message is that Jesus IS THE PROMISED MESSIAH, “I AM HE”, that which he had been revealing in the entire chapter, mind you! This was something that Abraham rejoiced over and FURTHMORE Jesus is declaring that it is something that God had promised even before Abraham lived. 

    #945921
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    V. 57→ “You are not yet 50 years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
    V. 58→ “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

    Thus Jesus answered the question of the Jews.
    This is very clear to see.

    #945922
    Jodi
    Participant

    Danny,

    Jesus answered saying before Abraham was, I AM.

    Jesus did NOT say, before Abraham was, I WAS.

    This should be one of your first clues that you are forcing the text to say what it does not.

    #945927
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny…….Jodi is absolutely right,  the human man Jesus is what God had in his mind for all of humanity to become like,  even before any creation ever started,  on this earth.

    Jesus did not actually exist before he came into his existence at his birth on this earth,  but he , a perfect human being, was in the plan of God from the start.   Therefore he “was”,  before Abraham in that sense.  Not that he actually was alive before Abraham was.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny…….gene

     

    #945928
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Nevertheless, Jesus did answer the question of the Jews.

    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    #945929
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Back up one verse to John 8:56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.” When does Abraham ever talk about expecting a “messiah”? The Jewish nation wasn’t even formed at that time; there was no sinful nation that required a messiah. So what was Jesus speaking of?

    If you’re going to claim Jesus saying “I am” as being definitive proof of preexistence, then you don’t understand the idiom of the Jewish thought concerning “preexistence”; as the Jew’s believe mankind exists in God’s mind before they’re born.

    #945930
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    As according to Isaiah 45, God had declared the end from the beginning, in that declaration was a man who would come and execute God’s will, who would do all of God’s pleasure and it was unto salvation for Israel and as both Isaiah and David speak it was salvation for all nations of people.

    God promised Abraham that through his seed all nations of the earth would be blessed.

    Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    In Isaiah 45 we read of salvation and God bringing forth righteousness.

    In Isaiah 42 we read of a man receiving God’s Spirit, he is called to righteousness, where God holds his hand and keeps him to fulfill His covenant. He is for a light to both Jews and Gentiles.

    This prophecy, was made true in the flesh of Jesus, the Spirit did come to live in him to a calling of righteousness where he does not fail in executing God’s will. God’s promise, the good news that Jesus shares, is that we will drink of the cup of the One Spirit as he does, we will be born of the Spirit as he is, where the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth and where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life.

    #945931
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…….“AMEN” to that.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene

    #945932
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    Danny, can we agree that Jesus saw Abraham rejoicing over his day through the Father? Can we agree that Jesus spoke of Abraham because he “speaks that which he has seen from the Father” (8:38)?

    Isn’t the very fact that Jesus needs God to see the past tell you that he isn’t himself, from the past? Think about that for a moment Danny. 

    If we can agree that Jesus spoke of Abraham through the Father, can we also agree then that the Jews didn’t understand it this way, they thought, which is evident by their question, that Jesus was implicating that Abraham saw him literally (not a prophecy of him)?

    #945934
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and All,

    It is important to recognize that John 8:58 is an answer to a direct question.

    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    #945936
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny …….Jodi is presenting it the right way brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny………gene

    #945937
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny …….Jodi is presenting it the right way brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny………gene

    #945938
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Jodi, Gene and All,

    The question was about Jesus.

    Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    Did Jesus answer that question, truthfully?

    Yes, he did!

    What is your answer?

    #945939
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    The Isa 45 passage you site is Isa 46:10, (clarity for others). What is this chapter about, what is God saying through the prophet? In verse 10 God explicitly states HE knows the outcome of everything. HIS plans will be accomplished no matter what and verse 3 tells us who HE is speaking to “Listen to me, house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel.” Where in this chapter and/or verse do you get God was declaring there would be a man who would come and do God’s will? This chapter is saying God is Jacob’s/Israel’s salvation and idols can do nothing.

    You: “God promised Abraham that through his seed all nations of the earth would be blessed. Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”

    Me: Are you saying this is a singular “seed” of Abraham’s which speaks specifically of Jesus? In verse 17 God “will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven?” A reference to a singular seed would be incorrect; the Hebrew word for “seed” in verse 18 is “zera” and means descendants or offspring. Some translations render “seed” as “children.” So it’s through the children (plural) of Abraham all nations will be blessed. God’s chosen people are to be a “light for the nations.”

    You quote Paul (Gal 3:8) as saying God would justify the heathen through faith; faith in what? Faith in a man, faith in God, faith in a belief? Is there a passage in the Tanakh (OT) that says the gentile will be justified by faith?

    Nothing in what you wrote explains John 8:56. How/why was Abraham “rejoicing” seeing the day of Jesus or presumably a messiah? The nation of Israel didn’t even exist in his day; he received a promise that his descendants would become numerous and be a blessing for all nations. If Abraham is told this great promise, why would he believe there would be a need for a “redemptive messiah”? Again, what is Jesus talking about?

    #945961
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    Thanks for having me look into John 8 more in depth.

    This is what I see having given much thought of what the passages in John 8 are presenting and applying them to that which I know from clear given truths.

    Jesus tells us directly in John chapter 8 that what he is saying is through the Father. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT 100% APPIES TO VERSE 58!

    38 I speak that which I have seen from my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

    Does Jesus know through the Father that Abraham had been given prophecy concerning himself? YES

    God gave to Jesus, Abraham rejoiced to see YOUR day, he saw it and was glad. In turn Jesus is able to speak and say, “Abraham rejoiced to see MY day, he saw it and was glad”.

    Does Jesus know through God what that day is and why Abraham would be rejoicing over it? Yes, we know he knows because we read it from his words in the Gospels and those words all come through God.

    Jesus through God knows who he is and what he has been anointed to accomplish.

    Do the Jews know who he is or are they blind where they don’t even understand his speech, let alone know that he speaks through God? They do not know who he is, they do not understand his speech nor do they understand that he speaks through the Father.

    Do you know Danny that Jesus sees and then speaks that which he see through the Father?

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    True unto the Jews, Jesus was not yet fifty years old.

    True unto Jesus, he was not yet fifty years old.

    True unto the Jews, they perceived from what Jesus said in verse 56 that Jesus was insinuating that he literally saw Abraham, hence their questioning in verse 57.

    True unto Jesus, he did see Abraham, but he saw him through the Father.

    If Jesus would have merely replied with a simple YES, what then? Would that equate to Jesus teaching he pre-existed? NO, it absolutely would not, as the truth is he is not yet 50 years old and he has seen Abraham, but not in the way these blind Jews perceived.

    Danny, you are treating the Jews false perception as if it were correct, that yes Jesus literally saw Abraham and thus yes, Jesus had to have then existed at the time of Abraham and so you believe Jesus’s answer is given according to such and then you interpret what he says according to such. Come out of the mind of the Jews!

    What are some clear biblical facts that one should know full well?

    God declared the end from the beginning, one man would execute His will bringing forth salvation. Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’s day, he saw it and was glad. Without the man anointed of God’s Spirit who God declared from the beginning, Abraham would have never existed in the first place, he would have never seen Jesus’s day and there would be no resurrection.  

    Acts 15: 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    1 Peter 1: 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED for you FROM THE foundation of the world.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

    Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. 15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

    Danny, the prophecy of who Jesus is and what he accomplishes, was that according to God even before Abraham existed? YES!

    MOREOVER, DID GOD GIVE SUCH TO JESUS TO SEE, to see that his own identity had been with God before Abraham was? YES!!

    Jesus says “before Abraham was, I am” THROUGH GOD. What Jesus sees through the Father is that which he speaks, just like in verse 56. 

     

    #945962
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Not sure if I will answer all of your questions in 1 post, so if you don’t see an answer know that I will respond again later.

    First of all you need to stop saying things like “is there a passage in the Tanakh (OT) that says…” and such the like. It’s pointless to someone who believes that the OT and the NT is God’s word. Do you do the same from one OT book with that of another, why not? Do you question what Isaiah says, if you can’t also find it written somewhere in Psalms?

    YOU: You quote Paul (Gal 3:8) as saying God would justify the heathen through faith; faith in what? Faith in a man, faith in God, faith in a belief? Is there a passage in the Tanakh (OT) that says the gentile will be justified by faith?

    ME: Faith in God our heavenly Father, which the purpose of Jesus was to bring us into such faith. Jesus is an example of God’s Spirit bringing forth righteousness unto eternal life. We are given from Ezekiel that God would put His Spirit in man and cause him to walk in all his ways, Jesus is a firstborn of such. Jesus is an example that the power of God’s Spirit in man when given without measure is a stronger influence over the carnal mind, the Spirit really brings forth all goodness, righteousness and truth. We are to desire the Spirit so we too can walk in all of God’s ways, we are to have faith in God’s promise that we will receive it along with a body that no longer draws us away from God, an immortal body that is free to serve God and not subjected to the fear of death serving the body in order to survive.

    YOU: Where in this chapter and/or verse do you get God was declaring there would be a man who would come and do God’s will?

    ME: Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness,  it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
    3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
    6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
    7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
    10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

     

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