John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,341 through 25,360 (of 25,993 total)
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  • #945994
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You: YHWH without his Son Jesus Christ doesn’t work. You need them both.

    Me: Really!! So God, the Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth needs help?!? Somehow in the realm of christianity, the creator of light and darkness isn’t able to save the very beings HE created? The One who created everything you see when you walk out your door every morning lacks the capability to redeem his creation without a helper? Please expound on your reasoning why God would need another and when did God proclaim this? Since God doesn’t speak in the NT you will have to find this in the Tanakh (OT).

    God said there is none beside HIM in Isa 45:5 and gives his glory to no one in Isa 42:8; yet, in Matt 17:1 Jesus asks for God’s glory. Another thing concerning your sited passage, why does Jesus speak in the third person, why does he have to reiterate his name, doesn’t God already know who is speaking?Then later in his prayer Jesus start using personal pronouns? Doesn’t that seem odd to you?

    It is said 33 times in the Tanakh God is our salvation and nowhere in the NT does it ever say God, HaShem, our Creator and giver of life is our salvation. Explain what happened and when our unchanging God, change?

    Are you waking up, are you going to start digging for the truth, or are you going to remain in your christian rut?

    #945995
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: Really!! So God, the Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth needs help?!? 

    ME: YES GOD NEEDED HELP:

    READ THE SCRIPTURE AND DISCERN THE TRUTH!

    Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said: It is not good for man to be alone:

    let us make him a help like unto himself. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946001
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel

    I have no idea what translation you’re using, but throw it away; it’s corrupt. Gen 2:18 in every translation I reference it says “I” will make him a helper – no “us.” This means God alone is going to do this. Besides, do you really believe the One who created light, time, celestial bodies, placed this planet at the right distance from the sun, created life on said planet would need another to assist HIM in the task of salvation, HE created it. How tiny is your god?

    Maybe instead of always injecting thoughts that aren’t there, just read the words that are there; it will change your life.

    #946002
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…..you said……>”Since God doesn’t speak in the NT you will have to find this in the Tanakh (OT).”

    JESUS said……..> the words I am telling you, ARE “NOT” MY WORDS,  but the words of “HIM” who sent me>”.

    The one who sent Jesus,  was God.  If you reject the words Jesus told us , you “ARE” rejecting the “WORDS” of GOD.   COMMON SENSE,   to anyone who abides in the truth.

    Heb1:1-2….. “God who at sundry times and divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers, by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by the Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by [dia] (in view of him), whom also he (GOD), made the worlds. 

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #946003
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene

    You’re missing the point, in the Tanakh God speaks through HIS prophets and is always prefaced by a variation of “declares the Lord.” Where is this in the NT? For Jesus to claim what he speaks comes from God is not provable; I can say the spirit lead me to tell you to walk and not drive to work today. From my statement do we have any proof the spirit told me anything? What kind of weight do my words carry, will you drive or walk to work? After all, I told you it came from the spirit; so you should listen, right. This is eerily similar to when Paul says he received a “special revelation”; no one else received these revelations, just him. Where is the confirmation, don’t we need two witnesses?

    Deut 13:1-5 and Deut 18:15-22 are two passages you must explain and keep them in the back of your mind when you read Matt 24; Jesus is speaking to his disciples in the present tense. Jump to verses 33-34 “So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” Jesus is telling them when “you”/”they” start seeing this chaos in the world they will know his return is near and then says it is “this”/”their” generation who will experience these events. Remember in Revelation 1:1 John says “…the things which must soon take place.” When I hear the words “soon take place”, my mind jumps immediately to something is going to happen very soon, not 2000 years later.

    Either Jesus has already returned and the events of Revelation have occurred or we may have an issue with the words of a certain man. Are you seeing it yet?

    What is your response to these previous posts 945980 and 945981? Anything?

    #946004
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi desiretruth,

    You: Somehow in the realm of christianity, the creator of light and darkness isn’t able to save the very beings HE created?

    Me: God decided to save us THROUGH HIS SON. Do you have a problem with that?

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world THROUGH HIM might be saved.

    #946005
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You: God decided to save us THROUGH HIS SON. Do you have a problem with that?

    Me: This “saving” you speak of was through the death of “His son” but creates an issue with God’s word since HE doesn’t accept human sacrifice, HE says every man will be held accountable for their sins, and no one can atone for the sins of another.

    What does God say about human sacrifice Deut 12:31 “You must not do so toward Yahweh your God, because of every detestable thing they have done for their gods Yahweh hates, for even their sons and their daughters they would burn in the fire to their gods.” God says this form of worship is detestable. To tell mankind human sacrifice is wrong, but then to “sacrificed his son” seems to be a double standard.

    In Deut 18:10 “There shall not be found among you one who makes his son or his daughter go through the fire…” This would also be human sacrifice and none among Israel was to practice the act.

    Deut 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, and children shall not be put to death because of their fathers; each one shall be put to death for his own sin.”

    Jer 31:30 “But everyone shall die for his own iniquity…”

    Ex 32:30 “Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to Yahweh. Perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” 31 And Moses returned to Yahweh, and he said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin and made for themselves gods of gold. 32 And now if you will forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me from your scroll that you have written.” 33 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot him from my scroll.” Moses went to God to atone for the sin of the people and God said NO!!

    What happened or what changed between the OT and NT? Are you saying our unchanging God changed his mind on the redemptive process for mankind or is your salvation statement false?

    #946006
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi DT,

    You: I have no idea what translation you’re using, but throw it away; it’s corrupt. Gen 2:18 in every translation I reference it says

    “I” will make him a helper – no “us.” This means God alone is going to do this.

    Peshitta Holy Bible Translated

    Genesis 2:18 And LORD JEHOVAH God said,

    “It is not good for Adam to be alone.

    IT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE FATHER TO BE ALONE!

    I shall make a helper for him like himself.” 

    Me: MAN WAS CREATED

    IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD!

    DT, GOD WAS ALONE BEFORE CREATION,

    MAN WAS ALONE IN HIS CREATION

    GOD MADE A HELPER FOR THE MAN LIKE HIMSELF,

    ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THE WOMAN;

    OUT OF THE MAN!

    GOD, THE DEITY, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,  MADE A HELPER FOR THE FATHER LIKE HIMSELF, ANOTHER DIVINE BEING JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, ANDROGYNOUS MALE AND FEMALE;

    OUT OF THE FATHER:

    SCRIPTURE:

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father;

    and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him.

    John8:42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me:

    John10:29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all:

    and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 

    John 14:9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10Do you not believe,

    that I am in the Father,

    and the Father in me?

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

    John 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.

    Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

    John16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

     28 I came forth from the Father,

    and am come into the world: again I leave the world,

    and I go to the Father.

    Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth:

    it shall not return to me void,

    but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #946007
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    What is the point you are trying to get at?

    If God was alone before creation, then Jesus couldn’t possibly preexist. hmmmm!

    #946008
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Read it again and reflect.

     

    GOD WAS ALONE BEFORE CREATION,

    MAN WAS ALONE IN HIS CREATION

    GOD MADE A HELPER FOR THE MAN LIKE HIMSELF,

    ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THE WOMAN;

    OUT OF THE MAN!

    GOD, THE DEITY, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,  MADE A HELPER FOR THE FATHER LIKE HIMSELF, ANOTHER DIVINE BEING JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, ANDROGYNOUS MALE AND FEMALE;

    OUT OF THE FATHER:

    John1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD……

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946009
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    GOD WAS ALONE BEFORE CREATION — you know this how? What about the angels?

    MAN WAS ALONE IN HIS CREATION — was he, wasn’t God there too?

    GOD MADE A HELPER FOR THE MAN LIKE HIMSELF — because HE said it wasn’t good for man to be by himself, without a compatible mate.

    ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THE WOMAN — would be a mouse…

    OUT OF THE MAN! — that’s what scripture says

    GOD, THE DEITY, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE, MADE A HELPER FOR THE FATHER LIKE HIMSELF, ANOTHER DIVINE BEING JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, ANDROGYNOUS MALE AND FEMALE — believe what you wish…how does a “spirit” posses either or both a male or female characteristic?

    OUT OF THE FATHER:

    John1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD……have you not been reading my posts to others? I am currently at 14 books torn from the NT because of the deception within them.

    #946010
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….Jesus is exactly right when he said “this generation will not pass ” he was speaking of the generation that exists in the time of those things taking place. He was not speaking of the generation of people in his day, as you falsely assume.

    Jesus was indeed a true prophet, and spoke the words of God to us, just as the prophets of the Old Testament did.   You failure to believe that shows clearly , you have become shipwreck and are now unable to put scriptures together correctly, and are denying the Truth of God.

    if you do not believe Jesus and what he said, you no longer have a part with him, and have become a part of those Jews who persecuted and killed him.  Your reward will be the same as theirs, unless you repent.  Remember their words “let his blood be on our head and the heads of our children”,  and so it was, and is, as history testifies even to this very day they have no peace. 

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

    #946011
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    #946012
    Berean
    Participant

    @Danny Dabbs

               AMEN!

    #946013
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You reject God saying human sacrifices are detestable to HIM and also accuse God of doing exactly what HE commanded mankind to never do.

    You reject God saying everyone is responsible for their own transgressions and accept Jesus taking on your sins.

    You reject God’s saying no one can atone for another man’s sin, but believe Jesus atones for yours.

    Christianity teaches Jesus was the Passover lamb, did you know the Passover lamb wasn’t a sin sacrifice and atoned for nothing. In fact, after the lamb was slaughtered, it was cooked and eaten.

    Sounds to me like you’re against what God commanded. Since you had to quote it, who’s speaking in Isa 53:1-9?

    You also never explained what changed between the OT and NT concerning salvation and why Jesus now the source?

    #946014
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: @Carmel,

    GOD WAS ALONE BEFORE CREATION

    you know this how? What about the angels?

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 

    MAN WAS ALONE IN HIS CREATION

    was he, wasn’t God there too?

    Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

    GOD MADE A HELPER FOR THE MAN LIKE HIMSELF

    because HE said it wasn’t good for man to be by himself, without a compatible mate.

    ME: ?????????????

    ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THE WOMAN

    would be a mouse…

    ME:?????????????

    OUT OF THE MAN!

    that’s what scripture says

    ME ; ?????????????

    GOD, THE DEITY, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE, MADE A HELPER FOR THE FATHER LIKE HIMSELF, ANOTHER DIVINE BEING JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, ANDROGYNOUS MALE AND FEMALE

    believe what you wish…how does a “spirit” posses either or both a male or female characteristic?

    ME: THAT’S YOUR CARNAL-MINDED REASONING

    OUT OF THE FATHER:

    John1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD

    ……have you not been reading my posts to others? I am currently at 14 books torn from the NT because of the deception within them.

    THAT’S YOUR CARNAL MINDED REASONING!

    WITH EVERY RESPECT:

    YOU ARE AN ATHEIST!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #946015
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    The book of Hebrews is so corrupt it must be removed; anyone who uses it continues to push its corruption.

    Every letter Paul wrote is a lie, he admits to robbing the early church, twists God’s words to make them his own, hates the Jewish people, whined about all of Asia rejecting him (doesn’t Jesus say to Ephesus they did well in testing false apostles), lies to the church in Galatia about what was instructed at the council in Jerusalem, teaches it okay to eat food sacrificed to idols – even though at the same council it was said not to. All you have to do is read some of my past posting as I detail my reasoning or just read your Greek Testament.

    Me rejecting the liar Paul and the book written by an unknown author (Hebrews) doesn’t make me an atheist. It makes me one who sees the truth; what does that make you as one who fully supports this trash masquerading as God’s word?

    #946016
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: What is the point you are trying to get at?

    READ AND DISCERN! 

    THANKS TO THE LIGHT FROM ABOVE!

    You: GOD WAS ALONE BEFORE CREATION — you know this how? What about the angels?

    MAN WAS ALONE IN HIS CREATION — was he, wasn’t God there too?

    Me: DT, IF I HAD TO TAKE YOUR FIRST TWO ANSWERS SERIOUSLY, THERE WOULD ONLY BE ONE JUSTIFIED REPLY AND THIS IS

    THAT YOU ARE A STUPID PERSON WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    IN THE FIRST ONE YOU SAID:

    you know this how? What about the angels?

    ANSWER NOW:

    WERE YOU SERIOUS WHEN YOU WROTE THE ABOVE

    NONSENSE?

    THE FACT THAT YOU DIDN’T EVEN SUBSTANTIATE YOUR REASONS.

    Genesis 1:1 CLEARLY IN BLACK ON WHITE SAYS GOD CREATED…….

    IF GOD CREATED SO AND SO, WASN’T GOD ALONE ACCORDING TO YOU?

    THE SECOND IS EVEN WORSE AND BY YOUR STUPID ANSWER YOU SIMPLY CONFIRMED THAT YOU ARE NOT A SPIRITUALLY MATURE PERSON IN ANY WAY!

    READ AGAIN WHAT YOU WROTE:

    was he, wasn’t God there too?

    NOW READ THE SCRIPTURE AGAIN:

    “It is not good for Adam to be alone.

    IT SAYS CLEARLY AND USED THE WORD “ALONE” NO?

    ARE YOU COMPARING ADAM TO GOD,

    ADAM WAS THE ONLY HUMAN PHYSICAL VISIBLE BEING!

    THE BEGINNING!

    THE ENTIRE SOULS, ALL IN ADAM! 

    NOW IF THE MAN WAS CREATED

    IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD ON HIS WAY BACK TO HOLINESS!

    ISN’T IT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU THAT GOD ALSO WAS ALONE?

    SINCE THE MAN WAS ALSO CREATED IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD!

    AND IF GOD SAID:

    “It is not good for Adam to be alone.

    ISN’T IT ALSO AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL 

    THAT IT WAS NOT GOOD ALSO FOR GOD TO BE ALONE?

    TO THE LAST ONE:

    IF GOD MADE A HELPER FOR THE MAN LIKE HIMSELF:

    A HUMAN TAKEN OUT OF THE MAN

    ISN’T ALSO AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL THAT GOD MADE A HELPER FOR HIMSELF LIKE UNTO HIMSELF?

    A GOD? TAKEN OUT OF THE FATHER

    HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER!

    ASSERTED IN

    8:42 ….. For from God I proceeded, and came;…..

    John 16:I came forth from the Father,….

    NOW JUST READ IT AGAIN HOW GOD FURNISHED MAN WITH ANOTHER HUMAN BEING:

    THE WOMAN!

    SHE WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE MAN

    ATTENTION PLEASE:

    IN GOD’S TERMS THOUGH, NOT AFTER SHE CORRUPTED HERSELF AND SINNED!

    21Then the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam:

    GOD BEFORE CREATION STARTED WAS ALSO IN A KIND OF DIVINE SLEEP!

    and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs, and filled up flesh for it. 

    THEN AGAIN WHEN HE WAS FAST ASLEEP, GOD ALSO TOOK A KIND OF RIB OUT OF HIS. 

    AND FILLED UP FLESH FOR IT!

    WHO IS THIS FLESH THAT GOD FILLED UP HIMSELF WITH? GET IT?,

    NO, YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID! I TELL YOU:

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, “THE WORD” OF GOD AND  ETERNAL LIFE WAS 

    ESTABLISHED WITH GOD THE FATHER!

    THE CARRIER OF GOD!

    22And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman:

    GOD ALSO BUILT HIS KIND OF RIB WHICH HE TOOK FROM HIMSELF  INTO

    A WOMAN TO BE! 

    NOW WHO IS THIS WOMAN TO BE? 

    AGAIN I TELL YOU:

    LUCIFER, THE FEMALE ASPECT OF CREATION TO BE!

    NOW TO THE LAST PART:

    and brought her to Adam.

    THAT’S IT PRECISELY AND BROUGHT LUCIFER TO

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD.

    LUCIFER, THE FEMALE ENTITY OF “THE WORD”

    JESUS THE MALE ENTITY OF “THE WORD” IN THAT PRECISE MOMENT 

    FOR THE SAKE OF CREATION.

    MALE AND FEMALE!

    GENESIS 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him:

    male and female he created them. 

    JESUS and LUCIFER!

    THE VERY FIRST-EVER MARRIAGE 

    23 And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man.

    THE ABOVE ALSO ARE THE PRECISE WORDS THAT THE SON OF MAN SAID:

    WHEN GOD CREATED LUCIFER AND FUSED HIM WITH JESUS HIS SON!

    BOTH OF THEM TOGETHER AS

    THE MORNING STAR,  Asserted in

    Job 38:7 When the morning stars praised me together,

    Galatians 4:14 You despised not, nor rejected: but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

    LUCIFER THE PHYSICAL ANGEL! THE BEGINNING, THE LIGHT BRINGER!

    JESUS, THE TRUE LIGHT, THE TRUE MORNING STAR, THE SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE WHO WAS WITH THE FATHER.

    1 John 11That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life: 2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you the life eternal, which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us:

    HIDDEN WITHIN LUCFER’S HEART, FOR THE SAKE OF HIS FREE WILL,

    BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, THE ENTIRE CREATION!

    SPIRIT AND PHYSICAL

    MALE AND FEMALE! ASSERTED IN

    MATTHEW 13:44 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hidden in a field. Which a man having found,

    hid it,

    and for joy thereof goeth, and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

     

    More to come

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #946017
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: THAT YOU ARE A STUPID PERSON WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    Me: Be thankful there are rules on this website and I respect my fellow man, whether we agree or not, to not drop to worse than childish levels because we disagree. In nothing you wrote did you substantiate your position; all you did was, as Paul, twist God’s words to mean what you want it to mean.

    What you wrote is nonsense and have no time to engage your twisted thinking, for example:

    You: JESUS and LUCIFER! THE VERY FIRST-EVER MARRIAGE

    Me: HA HA HA HA HA HA!! Don’t think I have ever read that in God’s word or anything interpreted as such and then apply this thinking to Job 38:7. The entire verse is “7 when the morning stars were singing together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” When placed in context, God is asking Job where he was during creation. This imagery of the “morning stars singing” is speaking of the creation of them and the angels rejoicing at there creation. What’s funny, science recently discovered stars emit a sound wave and they refer to it as the “symphony of the stars” – they “sing” and God revealed this to Job thousands of years ago. Again, just read what is there and quit reading between the lines of everything…it has to be painful to have your mind constantly justifying every word you read to make it into something “spiritual.”

    You: More to come

    Me: Thanks for the warning, I will know to skip it.

    #946018
    Berean
    Participant

     

    ISAIAH 53

    5] But he was wounded 👉for our transgressions,👈 he was👉 bruised for our iniquities: 👈

    the chastisement of our peace was upon him;👈 and with his stripes we are healed.
    [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;👉 and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.👈 

    🙏

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