John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,281 through 25,300 (of 25,994 total)
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  • #945842
    Berean
    Participant

    Hey Jodi
    Who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden?

    #945843
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    The passage of Gen 3:1 tells us a “serpent” spoke to Eve. Verse 1 also states this “serpent” was more cunning than all the beasts of the field God made. Is this “serpent” Sa-tan, is Sa-tan a created beast of the field, was this serpent somehow “possessed” by Sa-tan, or was this “serpent” a higher level of beast created?

    This is actually a fascinating chapter when read without the biases of church doctrine. The fact the serpent is said to be cunning, means the serpent has intelligence and could reason; and apparently could also speak as Eve had a conversation with it (note, she wasn’t troubled by this speaking snake). God also speaks to the serpent when HE curses it. So, how could this “serpent” be Sa-tan or a creature possessed by him?

    The curse of being on its belly means it must have been a creature who walked around as we do. Then to say it would “eat dust all its days” is rendered by commentators to mean the serpent would “licked up the dust of the earth, and which it could not well avoid in eating what ever food it did”; which would mean (I may be taking some liberties in my understanding, but does make sense) the serpent had a liking for food, enjoyed food as we do. Finally to finish the curse God put enmity between the seed of Eve and the serpent; the serpent would strike the heel of man and man would crush the serpents head. Think for a moment, how many people do you know like snakes and what is the response of most people to them?

    #945844
    Berean
    Participant

    @Desire Truth

    Honestly I believe that EITHER Satan used this serpent (he made it his medium) to get Eve to sin against God’s order.
    EITHER Satan transformed himself into a serpent to better deceive Eve.
    But I am more in favor of the first option!
    Be careful with Satan, if God allows him, he is capable of hypnotizing anyone, man or animal, and making them say or do anything.
    God is capable of making an animal speak if he wants, for example Balaam’s donkey!
    God is great and he makes everything work together for the good of those who love him.
    Coming back to the serpent in the Garden of Eden, didn’t the apostle John tell us in his book “Revelation” chap. 12 that:
    And the great dragon was cast out, 👉that old serpent, called👉 the Devil, and Satan, 👈which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
    …THAT OLD SERPENT CALLED THE DEVIL AND SATAN…
    to meditate….

    #945845
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Oh, what you are saying is very dangerous.
    My question to you: Who is Satan in Mark 3:22-30? (AKJV)
    22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27 No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

    Be careful what your answer will be.

    #945846
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    you: “Honestly I believe that EITHER Satan used this serpent (he made it his medium) to get Eve to sin against God’s order.”

    me: So you “believe” Sa-tan possessed the creature and made it “entice” Eve to take and eat the fruit. Does your “belief” explain why Eve had no problem speaking with the serpent? Does your belief explain why it’s written the serpent is the most cunning of all created beasts of the field (note it didn’t say the serpent was most cunning because Sa-tan possessed it)? Does your “belief” explain why God cursed the creature with death if it was Sa-tan who was controlling the creature; how does that seem right and just to you?

    you: “Be careful with Satan, if God allows him, he is capable of hypnotizing anyone, man or animal, and making them say or do anything.”

    me: Your statement sounds like something from a movie; but, in it you state “if God allows him.” Are you saying the angels are here to do God’s will and therefore do not or cannot act on their own? This raises another question, do angels have freewill or are they simply “messengers”, as their name means, doing the will and bidding of the God who created them?

    A small side note concerning the words of Eve in verse 3 “You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest you die.” and let’s compare her words to God’s in verses 16-17 of chapter 2, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat. But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die.” Did you catch it? She adds “touching” to what God said (Deut 4:2 comes to mind). There is more happening in this chapter than the “church” wants you to know because this event raises some questions concerning the serpent; but, it’s easier to say the serpent is Sa-tan or controlled by Sa-tan, thus any question concerning the serpent goes away and as a bonus the “church” has their scapegoat for all the “evil” in the world. Yet who created “evil”? Read Isa 45:7 “I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” To say “evil” comes/originates from Sa-tan, is to call God a liar.

    How did I miss this for 40 years?

    #945847
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Désire Truth

    You

    Does your “belief” explain why Eve had no problem talking to the serpent?

    me
    The Bible, as far as I know, doesn’t say if this caused him a problem….
    Still, Eve entered into dialogue….
    I still think she must have been surprised to hear a snake talking, and not just about anything!

    you

    Does your belief explain why it is written that the serpent is the most cunning of all created beasts of the field (note that it is not said that the serpent was the most cunning because Sa-tan possessed it)

    me

    Satan used the abilities that God had given to the serpent for his own purposes. He put him under his complete control…for his evil task.

    you

    Does your “belief” explain why God cursed the creature with death if it was Sa-tan who was controlling the creature; how does that seem right and just to you?

    me

    verse 14 suggests that God spoke to the serpent (the animal)

    It may seem unfair that God cursed him (although not with death)
    but since God cursed him, there is a reason….
    Did the snake have the ability to say no to the devil? Maybe ?

    On the other hand, verse 15 suggests that God was speaking to the devil….

    me: “Beware of Satan, if God allows it, he is capable of hypnotizing anyone, man or animal, and making them say or do anything. »

    you: Your statement sounds like something from a movie; but you say there “if God permits”. Are you saying that angels are there to do God’s will and therefore they cannot or cannot act on their own? This raises another question: Do angels have free will or are they simply “messengers”, as their name suggests, carrying out the will and orders of the God who created them?

    me

    I believe that God gave free will to angels and humans including Lucifer.
    The latter misused it, and history and prophecy show that he never repented.

    you

    A small side note concerning the words of Eve in verse 3 “You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest you die.” and let’s compare her words to God’s in verses 16-17 of chapter 2, “Of every tree of the garden you can freely eat. But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die.” Did you catch it? She adds “touching” to what God said (Deut 4:2 comes to mind).

    me

    yes Eve added “touché”…
    be careful not to perpetuate this fatal error….

    you

    There is more happening in this chapter than the “church” wants you to know because this event raises some questions concerning the serpent;

    me

    Satan is the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)
    This indicates that Satan has a strong influence over the ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and ideas of most men. Its influence also encompasses world philosophies, education and commerce. The thoughts, ideas, speculations and false religions of the world are under his control and are born of his lies and deception.

     

    you

    but, it’s easier to say the serpent is Sa-tan

    me

    Isn’t that obvious to you?

    you.

    or controlled by Sa-tan, thus any question concerning the serpent goes away and as a bonus the “church” has their scapegoat for all the “evil” in the world.

    me
    Yes and no

    We have our responsibilities for these things.

    Cling to God, resist the devil,
    and he will run away from you

     

    You

    Yet who created “evil”? Read Isa 45:7 “I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord does all these things.” To say “evil” comes/originates from Sa-tan, is to call God a liar.

    How did I miss this for 40 years?

    me

    Ah ah
    This remains to be proven MORE SOLIDLY.

    1) MUST SEE THE CONTEXT

    2) WE CANNOT ALWAYS ESTABLISH A TRUTH WITH A SINGLE VERSE….

    #945848
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    YOU: Yes, Job did complain and repented but he never cursed God.
    Job 2:9-10
    Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”
    But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

    ME: What happens in the 40 CHAPTERS after chapter 2 Danny?

    Please define the word “curse” specifically used in Job 1 and 2 that the adversary says Job would surely do.

    The word “curse” used in Job I looked up in my Ancient Hebrew Lexicon this morning, it means to kneel in homage and then used as the opposite to that.

    Job literally told God TO LEAVE HIM ALONE, which is the opposite of kneeling to God and giving him homage. Job proclaims that God must be his enemy, that too is the opposite of kneeling in homage.

    But even further, read,

    Job 13:3 But I desire to speak to the Almighty and to argue my case with God.

    14 Why do I put myself in jeopardy and take my life in my hands 15Though he slay me, I will no longer wait, I will accuse him of his ways to his face!

    22 Then summon me and I will answer, or let me speak, and you reply to me. 23 How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin. 24 Why do you hide your face and consider me your enemy? 25 Will you torment a windblown leaf? Will you chase after dry chaff?

    Job 38:1 And the Lord made answer to Job out of the storm-wind, and said, 2 Who is this who makes the purpose of God dark by words without knowledge?

    Job 40:1 The LORD said to Job:
    2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!” 3 Then Job answered the LORD:
    4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.

    Job at a point was most certainly not kneeling to God in homage, quite the opposite, he wanted to accuse God to his face with injustice, exactly why God said that Job was darkening God’s council. 

    #945849
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    I’m not going to focus on every response, but just a few that really jump out as being patently false and why believing something doesn’t make it truth.

    you:

    verse 14 suggests that God spoke to the serpent (the animal)

    It may seem unfair that God cursed him (although not with death)

    but since God cursed him, there is a reason….

    Did the snake have the ability to say no to the devil? Maybe?

    On the other hand, verse 15 suggests that God was speaking to the devil.…

    me:

    You “believe” verse 14 God is speaking to the serpent and in 15 HE is speaking to the “devil.” This is absolutely false as the rules of grammar override any beliefs we may have. At the beginning of the dialogue (vs14) God specifically addresses the serpent: “And the Lord God said unto the serpent…”, in vs 15: “And I will put enmity…” a conjunction is used connecting it to the previous statement. So vs 15 God is still speaking to the one HE addressed in vs 14 – the serpent. You will also notice in this dialogue, God is specifically addresses three individuals as HE is passing out HIS judgment on them; yet, you came up with four. Words have meaning and there is no room for personal thought or in this case religious doctrine.

    You say the serpent wasn’t cursed with death, how is having ones head crushed not a certain death?

    You say “it may seem unfair…but…there is a reason.” First, God’s judgments are just and there is no “fairness” constraint in them. Second, this judgment was specifically for the serpent because of what it did and not for being “possessed” or “controlled.” In what you “believe” the serpent was judged righteously over an event it had no control over. I see an issue with this line of reasoning.

    I realize a walking, talking snake sounds absurd today, but was it at creation? The words written actually support a type of walking, talking snake when read without the constraint of religious dogma and using one’s mind to process the words written.

     

    you: “I believe that God gave free will to angels and humans including Lucifer.”

    me: The word “Lucifer” means “shining one” or “morning star” and in the entire modern KJV bible it is used ONCE in Isaiah 14:12 as is a direct reference to the king of Babylon with most attributing the king to be Nebuchadnezzar and not to Sa-tan (aka the devil). Verse 16 tells us this “Lucifer” is a reference to a man and not Sa-tan “They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms…” Did you catch the word “man” is Sa-tan a man and when did Sa-tan make the earth tremble or kingdoms shake? Pointing out a single verse and not reading it in context creates dangerous (false) understandings.

    Concerning the “freewill” of angels, due to space and time, I will leave it at a simple – they don’t have freewill, they are there to do as God commands them. Freewill was given to man because God wasn’t looking for robots to worship him; HE wanted those who would look to HIM as their king and savior. If there was no sin in the world what kind of relationship would there be between man and God?

     

    you: “The latter misused it, and history and prophecy show that he never repented.”

    me: Please provide factual historical examples of Sa-tan never repented and give the passages where prophecy states he never repented. Won’t hold my breath.

     

    you: “yes Eve added “touché”… be careful not to perpetuate this fatal error….”

    me: What “fatal error” are you speaking of? I’m reading the words written and God never said anything about not “touching” the fruit…explain.

     

    you: “Satan is the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)”

    me: you quote the liar Paul as your support for Sa-tan being in control of the world!??! (still waiting for I Cor 15:3,4 “according to scripture”)

    The sad part of your response is they are based in a religious belief system.

    “You don’t learn by having faith. You learn by questioning, by challenging, by re-examining everything you’ve ever believed. And yet, all this is a matter of faith – the faith that there is a truth to be found. To truly question, you must truly have faith” (T. Freeman)

    In other words, if you aren’t questioning, challenging, or re-examining what you believe, it’s not “faith” you have, it’s “belief”; and you can be manipulated into believing anything…true or false.

    #945850
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    I see nothing “dangerous” in what Jodi wrote; explain why you believe what she is saying is dangerous. A quote in the NT attributed a few scribes accusing Jesus of being possessed by “Beelzebub” doesn’t explain anything.

    Beelzebub (Baal-zebub) means “lord of the flies”, is the god of the Philistine city Ekron, and is first mentioned in II Kings chapter 1. How are you inferring Beelzebub is a reference to Sa-tan when Judaism defines sa-tan as adversary and generally treats the term as a verb and not a personal noun.

    Curious to why you left off verse 21 of this passage, why does Jesus’ family accuse him of “having lost his senses”? This is right before the scribes accuse him of being possessed by Beelzebub, explain.

    #945851
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Desire Truth

    You

    You say the serpent was not cursed with death, how is having its head crushed not certain death?

    me

    Don’t you see that God, speaking to the Serpent, addresses first the animal, then the devil….

    It’s clear though… isn’t it?

    v.14
    serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
    [14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above 👉all cattle, and above 👉every beast👈 of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

    v.15
    And I will put enmity between👉 thee and the 👉woman, 👈and between 👉thy seed and👉 her seed; 👈 it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.👈

    The seed of the serpent is the body of people who oppose the authority of the Kingdom of God. Cain (who killed his brother Abel), Lamech (Genesis 4:17-24), and those who opposed Jesus (John 8:33, 41-44).

    The Seed of Woman Are God’s Chosen People Throughout Redemptive History AND Christ in finality Who  bruise the head of the serpent at the cross.

    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.(Gal.3:16)

     

    me: “yes Eve added “touché”… be careful not to perpetuate this fatal error….”

    you: What “fatal error” are you speaking of? I’m reading the words written and God never said anything about not “touching” the fruit…explain.

    me

    fatal error
    👇
    add to the word of God

    God did not say not to touch the fruit, but not to eat it.

    Eve added to the word of God: “touched”

    And we have to be careful about that.

    You

    me: “Satan is the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)”

    you: you quote the liar Paul as your support for Sa-tan being in control of the world!??! (still waiting for I Cor 15:3,4 “according to scripture”)

    The sad part of your response is they are based in a religious belief system.

    Me

    No, I rely ON THE WORD OF GOD.

    For 1Cor.15,4 the answer IS in ISAIAH CHAPTER 53

     

    #945852
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    you: “Don’t you see that God, speaking to the Serpent, addresses first the animal, then the devil….

    It’s clear though… isn’t it?”

    me: I suppose when you ignore that pesky “and” you can see the second part as being referencing “the devil.” Unfortunately when you understand grammar, know how grammar works, and appropriately apply the rules of grammar, one actually see verses 14 and 15 are a singular thought. BUT, you are free to “believe” whatever you wish; that is what is called freewill. To answer your question; NO, there is nothing clear in what you claim as truth. All you have to do is read the words; God is a “straight shooter” and maybe that’s the problem, mankind over analyzes instead of just listening.

     

    you: “The seed of the serpent is the body of people who oppose the authority of the Kingdom of God.”

    me: where do you get this from? The word “seed” used in this passage in Hebrew is “zera” which means descendant. This is literal and zero exegesis is needed to read between the lines to come up with your nonsense. This is literally saying the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent will be at odds with one another. Again, when people see a snake today their first reaction is to kill it. How do you not see this?!!? It’s written plainly in front of you!

     

    you: “fatal error, add to the word of God”

    me: did you not read the Deuteronomy verse I gave you? Is reading and comprehension foreign to you? You literally repeated what I originally said, yet prior you said I needed to be careful and not “perpetuate this fatal error.” I pointed out Eve added to what God said…CONFUSED!!

     

    You say you rely on the “Word of God”; what exactly do you consider the “Word of God”? I have shown how the NT (aka the Greek Testament) doesn’t align with the OT; yet, it’s spun away as being a none issue.

     

    Nowhere in Isa 53 does it ever speak of the Messiah being buried and raised up on the third day, more lies from Paul. Not really a fan of Paul when he makes statements like II Cor 11:8 “I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.” Robbed them did he; isn’t there some commandment about not stealing…sounds like someone I want to listen to! NOT!! Let’s back up a few verses where II Cor 11:5 where he states: “For I consider myself not at all inferior to those “super-apostles.” (NET) Coming from the same man who claims to be the 13 apostle; yet, in Acts 1:21-22 an apostle was to be one who walked with and witnessed Jesus resurrection and Paul never met Jesus, let alone witnessed the “resurrection.” You want something really funny, in II Tim 1:15 Paul laments over all those in Asia turning away from him and in Rev 2:2 John commends those in Ephesus who put to test those who call themselves apostles and were not. A coincidence, I think not! You can continue to put Paul on a pedestal or look at him for who he really is – a liar!

    #945853
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @ desiretruth,

    Apostle Paul was not a liar.
    YOU are the liar!
    1 John 2:22
    Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
    He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    #945854
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen DD

    God bless

    #945855
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny

    What a fascinating response, nowhere in anything you said did you point out what I “lied” about. Did I lie when I repeated what Paul said to the church in Corinth about “robbing” other churches? Do you not take issue with him saying he robbed other churches?!? (II Cor 11:8)

     

    Paul states, “For all the law is fulfilled in one word (command) , even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” (Gal 5:14)

    What did Jesus say, “Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matt 22:36-40)

    I counted two Jesus gave, but I guess I am being deceptive once again, right?!

     

    Read Acts 15:1-32 and Gal 2:1-10:

    Paul goes to Jerusalem over a discussion concerning whether gentiles are required to be circumcised or not and the general consensus is the gentiles where “to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.” This was written in a letter to the churches. Now let jump to Galatians where Paul is recounting to them his visit to this counsel in Jerusalem and focus like you have never focused before on the words of Paul in Gal 2:10. What does he tell those in Galatia he was to do…“10 They only asked us to remember the poor.” Something doesn’t match. I thought the letter included some other items the gentiles where to observe and it wasn’t to only “remember the poor.”

    Staying on this letter Paul was to take to the churches, it said “to abstain from food polluted (sacrificed to) by idols” and Paul teaches (I Cor 8:1-8) it doesn’t matter whether or not food sacrificed to idols is consumed. This is direct conflict to what was agreed upon at the council in Jerusalem. Paul is in opposition to the church leaders, the ones who actually walked and talked with Jesus and you are okay with this??!!

     

    I’m the liar, maybe you should pick up your Greek Testament and read what it actually says; better yet, skip Paul and pick up the Tanakh (aka OT) and read what God has to say.

    #945856
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You give Danny and amen for writing nothing; but no response with our discussion concerning Sa-tan.

    Did you ever find the passage where the Messiah was to be buried and raised up on the third day in the OT? Remember, this is “according to scripture” says Paul.

    #945857
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Desire Truth

    That’s enough, the answers have been given for both.

     

    #945858
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    I see that DT revealed to you that Beelzebub is nothing but a false god of the Philistines, which was a point I was going to make.

    There as some truths I think you need to think through and some scriptures then that need to be relooked at.

    Other religions attributed both physical and mental illnesses and diseases to be coming from their gods with their demons/evil spirits/devils.

    But it is YHVH alone who does all these things, brings the likes of boils, blindness, mutism etc… AND MADNESS (AKA mental disorders). Mental disorders back then were referred to as being possessed by an evil spirit, demon or devil.

    Deuteronomy 28:27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.

    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (ra/bad): I the LORD do all these things.

    Danny can you or can you not believe in this clear given truth and then take this truth and relook at scripture also knowing that God’s faithful angels who brought forth cursing are called SAW-TAWN.

    In addition to these facts we also know that God’s people went after false religions, so you must realize Danny that directly means that they believed in the demons/evil spirits of these false religions, which both the OT and the NT tells us were fake, they had no power. Jews even invented their own doctrines around demons and evil spirits. Jews like the Pharisees and Sadducees believed that evil spirits could enter you when you slept so one must complete a hand washing ritual at the first of every morning.

    The scribes believed in Beelzebub a false god and him being a prince of demons. Hmm.

    The Book of Enoch gives us another primary example of Jews creating their own doctrine aligning pagan myths with the bible. The book is all about fallen angels and therein they are doing that which God says He only does.

    From Britannica,

    First Book of Enoch, pseudepigraphal work (not included in any canon of scripture) whose only complete extant version is an Ethiopic translation of a previous Greek translation made in Palestine from the original Hebrew or Aramaic.

    Enoch, the seventh patriarch in the book of Genesis, was the subject of abundant apocryphal literature, especially during the Hellenistic period of Judaism (3rd century BC to 3rd century AD). At first revered only for his piety, he was later believed to be the recipient of secret knowledge from God. This portrait of Enoch as visionary was influenced by the Babylonian tradition of the 7th antediluvian king, Enmenduranna, who was linked to the sun god and received divine revelations. The story of Enoch reflects many such features of the Babylonian myth.

    I want to point out that scripture does not say that what these false gods and their demons really are, are fallen angels. Scripture clearly tells us that they are fake having no power to do any good or any evil. ALSO the idea that God is ultimately in control but He “allows” fallen angels to have control over earth is not anywhere substantiated in scripture. God certainly allows human rulers to have control and do evil but it is only God who holds supernatural power to bring forth blessing and cursing, bring forth light and darkness.  Think about that for a moment and why God felt He needed to make the point that ONLY HE CAN DO ALL THESE THINGS.

    I have much more to say and scriptures to give in my next post.

     

    #945859
    Jodi
    Participant

    I am going to post in the Enmity thread and Berean I see your post with the question about who is the serpent in the garden and so I will answer that there as well.

    #945861
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    ME:  ONLY JESUS RECEIVED ALL THE ABOVE BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE, BUT NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED!

    YOU: There exists no scriptural support for what you have stated whatsoever.

    ME: WE’LL SEE AS WE PROCEED TILL I ANSWER ALL YOUR FALLACIES.

    You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

    As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit here and there.  The idea that the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and abode in him,

    but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

    Me: Jodi, YOU ARE COMPLETELY CONFUSED AND YOUR MINDSET REGARDING THE POWER OF THE FATHER AND THE FUNCTION AND TASKS OF THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT ONLY BLANK BUT A FALLACY, WITH EVERY RESPECT. YOUR COMMENT ABOVE IS ONLY FOCUSED ON THE HOLY GHOST.

    BUT IRONICALLY YOU LEFT OUT THE MOST VITAL PRECISELY:

    THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    Now read again what I said in my post:

    Me: Jodi and in this case Gene, WHERE DOES SCRIPTURE SAY THAT JESUS WAS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WHILE HE WAS IN THE WILDERNESS?

    Jodi IN THE ABOVE I USED THE TERM “IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT” THEN I SAID:

    JESUS WAS ONLY LED BY THE SPIRIT TO BE TESTED AS A HUMAN BEING IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN!

    AND SATAN, THE DEVIL, IS NOT THAT STUPID TO TEST THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    You:  He indeed had the power to make bread from stone.

    John5:19 Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you,

    the Son cannot do anything of himself,…..

    NOW READ AGAIN WHAT I SAID TO YOU:

    HOW ON EARTH COULD JESUS BE TESTED AND EVENTUALLY SIN IF HE WAS UNDER THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT?

    IT’S ILLOGICAL AND

    PURE NONSENSE!

    You: The idea that the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and abode in him,

    but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

     

    ME: YOU IN THE ABOVE ARE CONFUSED AND SAID THAT THE SPIRIT WOULD LEAVE HIM AND THEN DESCEND AGAIN.

    NO Jodi, IT’S WHAT YOU SAID IS COMPLETE GARBAGE I’M AFRAID!

    NOT THE SPIRIT WOULD LEAVE JESUS AT ALL, BUT

    THE POWER OF GOD WOULD NOT BE PRESENT AS GOD FEELS FIT!

    AS WE WILL SEE LATER THROUGH SCRIPTURE.

    THE POWER OF GOD AND THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY GHOST ARE TWO DIFFERENT PROCESSES. THERE’S A DIVINE PROCEDURE, THE FATHER, A SPIRIT, ALWAYS ETERNALLY ABIDES IN THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL, THEN BOTH ETERNALLY INDWELL THE SON, JESUS

    Well asserted in

    Isaiah 42:1 BEHOLD MY SERVANT, I will uphold him: my elect,

    MY SOUL delighteth in him: I have given MY SPIRIT upon HIM…..

    AS CLEAR AS A CRYSTAL Jodi,

     

    BEHOLD MY SERVANT….. HOW??

    JESUS PREEXISTED AS A SPIRIT BEFORE THE WORLD WAS AS

    THE EMBODIMENT AND CARRIER OF GOD THE FATHER,

    GOD’S SERVANT!

    AND IN BETWEEN THERE WAS/IS ALWAYS THE HOLY GHOST.

    GOD’S SOUL. TO BE CLEAR:

    THE SPIRIT, THE FATHER

    THE SOUL, THE HOLY GHOST, AND

    THE FLESH “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN.

    THE TRIUNE GOD!

    NOW WE ARE CREATED IN GOD’S IMAGE!

    IN SPIRIT, SOUL, AND FLESH!

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON!

     

    Now let’s read:

    Luke 1:34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35 And the angel answering, said to her:

    THE HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee, and

    THE POWER of the MOST HIGH shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    THE SON OF GOD.

    FIRST AND FOREMOST, FROM Luke ABOVE, WE ARE CERTAIN THAT THE POWER OF GOD IS THE ATTRIBUTE OF THE FATHER, NEVER OF THE HOLY GHOST ALONE AS SUCH. Well asserted also in

    Luke 22:69 But hereafter the Son of man shall be sitting on the right hand of

    THE POWER OF GOD.

    Jodi, JESUS IS SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER NOT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE HOLY GHOST OK?

    I REPEAT: THE POWER IS THE ATTRIBUTE OF THE FATHER AS HE FEELS FIT!

    THUS FROM THE FATHER THE POWER OF GOD PASSES UNTO THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL,  AND FROM AND THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST UNTO THE INDIVIDUAL, IN THIS UNIQUE AND MOST MYSTERIOUS DIVINE/HUMAN BLENDING CASE UNTO JESUS’ MOTHER, THE VIRGIN MARY.

    THUS, IN THIS PARTICULAR PROCESS OF THE INCARNATION OF GOD IN JESUS’ CONCEPTION OCCURRED, OR  SINCE MARY, THE WOMAN, IS ALSO INVOLVED, AT LEAST SEEMED TO OCCUR, TWO SEPARATE DIVINE PROCESSES Jodi! “FIRST”, THE ONE BY GOD’S MOST VERSATILE HOLY SPIRIT, IN THIS CASE, THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL, Isaiah 42:1, AND THEN, THE ONE BY THE POWER OF THE FATHER,

    THUS, IMMEDIATELY ON MARY’S CONSENT, ACCORDING TO GABRIEL’S DESCRIPTION, OCCURRED A UNIQUE CONSISTENT DIVINE PROCEDURE,

    WHEN THE HOLY GHOST INITIATED THIS COMPOUND PROCESS, AND HE CAME UPON AND OCCUPIED MARY’S WOMB “FIRST”, THEN IMMEDIATELY THE POWER OF THE FATHER FOLLOWED, OVERSHADOWED MARY, ATTENTION PLEASE, AND THE SON OF GOD, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE, NOT THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE YET, WAS FULLY FORMED SPIRITUALLY OF THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL.

    A PERFECT TRIUNE SPIRITUAL PROCESS BY GOD ORCHESTRATED BY

    THE POWER OF THE FATHER, WITHIN THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL, AND BOTH IN THE SON OF GOD.  Isaiah 42:1,

    THE TRIUNE GODHEAD EMBODIED IN JESUS’ SOUL, WITHIN MARY’S UNIQUE WOMB, AS “THE WORD”

    NOT YET MADE FLESH IN OUR HUMAN WORLDLY TERMS, HENCE; THE FACT THAT OCCURRED

    A DIVINE/HUMAN BLENDING, AS GOD INCARNATED IN JESUS’ IMMACULATE CONCEPTION, IN MARY’S WOMB.

    I REPEAT THROUGHOUT SPIRITUAL!

    NOTHING IN FLESH AND BLOOD YET!!!

    SOMETHING TO CHEW NOW, THOUGH YOU DON’T HAVE THE APPROPRIATE TEETH! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    AS GOD, INCARNATED IN JESUS’CONCEPTION IN MARY’S UNIQUE WOMB WAS NOT YET IN

    THE WORLD, SATANIC!

    BUT EQUALLY STILL IN HEAVEN.

    THE FACT THAT NEITHER SPERM NOR OVUM WAS PRESENT THERE!

    ONLY GOD’S TRIUNE GLORY IN HIS SPIRITUAL WORK!

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH IN GOD’S TERMS!

    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally;

    NOW THIS DIVINE PROCEDURE, WHERE THE HOLY GHOST ALWAYS INITIATES GOD’S WORK, IS EVIDENT THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE, IT’S HIS PARTICULAR TASK RIGHT FROM Genesis 1:2, THEN THE POWER OF THE FATHER FUNCTIONS ONLY AS GOD FEELS FIT FROM WITHIN.

    Well asserted hereunder:

    Acts 10:44 While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. 45And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46For they heard them speaking with tongues,

    and magnifying God.

    47Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,

    who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?

    FROM THE ABOVE WE ARE AWARE THAT THE HOLY GHOST INITIATED HIS WORK FOR GOD AND DELIBERATELY OCCUPIED THE GENTILES EVEN BEFORE THEY WERE OFFICIALLY BAPTIZED.

    SIMPLY AS HE WAS ENRICHED BY THE UNIQUE AND THE MOST POWERFUL ATTRIBUTES OF JESUS CHRIST AS GODMAN ON EARTH, PRECISELY SENT FROM THE FATHER, BY JESUS CHRIST THE SUPREME RULER OVER ALL, AND PROPRIETOR OF ALL FLESH, ONLY POSSIBLE BY AND FROM JESUS’DEATH, HIS RESURRECTION, AND GLORIFICATION OFFICIALLY ON EARTH FROM PENTECOST, AGAIN ALSO IN THIS CASE

    BY THE INITIATION OF THE WORK OF GOD PRECISELY BY

    THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    NOW WITH CERTAINTY, WE KNOW THAT THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY GHOST IS DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THE FATHER AND HIS POWER. DESPITE THEY ARE EQUAL AND ONE IN EVERY SENSE, AS ONLY THE FUNCTION IS DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT, THUS,

    FOR ONE TO BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST IS A PROCESS ON ITS OWN, AND TO BE FILLED WITH POWER IS ANOTHER OF THE FATHER, ESPECIALLY POWER WITHOUT MEASURE ONLY ENDOWED TO JESUS THE SON OF MAN, AFTER HE LEFT THE WILDERNES, FOR THE FULFILLMENT OF GOD’S GLORY ON EARTH!

    THOUGH A KIND AND A TEMPORARY LIMITED POWER COULD ALSO BE PRESENT, LIKE IN THE CASE IN Acts 10 ABOVE.

    You: You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

     

    All that in the next post!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945862
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

    Let’s read the scripture.

    Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report,

    full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom,

    whom we may appoint over this business. 4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. 5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude:

    and they chose Stephen,

     a man full of faith, and of the Holy Ghost,

    and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

    Jodi, ONLY STEPHEN OUT OF THE SEVEN SELECTED IS FULL OF FAITH AND THE HOLY GHOST!

    RIGHT?

    NOW, SCRIPTURE DIDN’T MENTION NEITHER THAT STEPHEN IS NOT YET IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, NOR THAT THE OTHER SIX WERE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST!

    ARE YOU READY TO CONCLUDE THEN AND ADD TO SCRIPTURE THAT SINCE STEPHEN IS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST IS ALSO FULL OF POWER, AND ALL THE OTHER SIX SELECTED ARE ALSO FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL?

    6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

    7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

    8 And Stephen, full of faith and power,

    did great wonders and miracles among the people.

    IN THE ABOVE, AGAIN, ONLY STEPHEN EVENTUALLY WAS GIVEN THE POWER AND PERFORMED GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES, AND WE ONLY KNOW ABOUT THIS IN VERSE 8, AFTER THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND THE NUMBER OF THE DISCIPLES WERE MULTIPLIED AND SO ON.

    THUS STEPHEN WAS FULL OF POWER NOT IMMEDIATELY WHEN HE WAS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    HIS NORMAL STATE EVEN BEFORE HE WAS SELECTED,

    BUT AFTER A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME, WHEN THE SEVEN WERE SELECTED AND THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND SO ON.

    I REPEAT: ARE YOU READY ALSO, IN THIS CASE, TO ADD TO SCRIPTURE AND CONCLUDE THAT ALL THE SELECTED WERE GIVEN THE POWER TO PERFORM GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES, LIKE IN THE CASE OF STEPHEN, AFTER ALL, THEY SUPPOSED, WERE ALSO FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST NO?

    NOW, THE FACT THAT STEPHEN WAS FULL OF POWER ONLY AFTER A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME, WHEN THE SEVEN WERE SELECTED AND THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED AND SO ON.

    ISN’T IT CLEAR ENOUGH, THAT TO BE FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST, IS NOT GUARANTEED THAT POWER IS ALSO GIVEN?

    NEVER MIND AUTOMATICALLY AND IMMEDIATELY.

    Now to:

    Luke 4:1 AND Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from the Jordan,

    Jodi, LIKE IN THE CASE OF STEPHEN, reading Luke above he only declared that Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost!

    ARE YOU READY TO ADD TO SCRIPTURE AND CONCLUDE THAT JESUS AUTOMATICALLY AND IMMEDIATELY WAS ALSO IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT?

    Acts 10:38 Jesus of Nazareth:

    how God anointed him with the Holy Ghost,

    and with power, …..

    AGAIN Jodi, IT IS MORE THAN CERTAIN IN THE ABOVE, THAT IT WAS NOT SUFFICIENT ENOUGH JUST TO SAY THAT JESUS WAS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    BUT ACTS HAD TO MAKE SURE AND CLEAR THAT

    JESUS WAS ALSO WITH POWER!

    IN LUKE 4:1 WE NEVER READ SUCH DECLARATION!

    ONLY YOUR FALLACY, AND NONSENSE! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    More to come!

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