John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #945760
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Hi Carmel,

    As I said before, pay attention to the context.

    ME: WHAT CONTEXT?

    Read again the scripture:

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT into Galilee:

     and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

    READING THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE, FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME,

    IT CLEARLY SAYS THE MOST VITAL BEFORE JESUS COMMENCED HIS PUBLIC LIFE FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, AND THAT IS, THAT JESUS

    IS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT.

    NEVER  HEARD OF BEFORE AT ALL!

    WHAT IS THE REASON THAT THE SCRIPTURE TELLS US THAT JESUS IS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, PRECISELY BEFORE HE RETURNED INTO GALILEE, AND CONSEQUENTLY THERE WENT A FAME OF HIM AND SO ON?

    ISN’T CLEAR AND LOGICAL ENOUGH THAT JESUS WAS NOT IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT SINCE SCRIPTURE SAID THAT HE IS SO? WHAT’S THE USE OF TELLING US SO IF NOT TO MAKE US AWARE THAT JESUS WAS NOT SO BEFORE?

    THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WAS ONLY FOR JESUS’ DISPOSITION TO MANIFEST AND FULFILL THE FATHER’S WORK, AND THE MOST VITAL ALSO IN THE MIDST OF HUMANS IN THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME SATANIC AND SPIRITUALLY DEAD. ON THE OTHER HAND, JESUS WOULD AND COULD NOT MANIFEST THE FATHER’S WORK AT ALL IN THE WILDERNESS IN THE MIDST OF SCORPIONS AND ALL SORTS OF BEASTS. THE FACT THAT JESUS,

    NOT THE SON OF GOD JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE Jodi, BUT, 

    THE SON OF MAN, WAS NOT IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, JESUS HUMAN NATURE, AND ALSO IN ALL THINGS LIKE HI BRETHREN!

    THE SON OF GOD COULD NEVER GET HUNGRY PHYSICALLY!

    GOT IT! NO, YOU DIDN’T I’M AFRAID!

    NOW JUST READ FROM VERSE 2 OF THIS CHAPTER PLEASE:

    Luke 4:2For the space of forty days; and was tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days;

    and when they were ended,

    he was hungry.

    THE ABOVE IS ANOTHER PIECE OF LOGIC UNLESS ONE REFLECTS.

    WAS THERE ANY NEED FOR THE SCRIPTURE TO TELL US THAT JESUS PHYSICALLY AFTER THE FORTY DAYS WERE ENDED, WAS HUNGRY?

    ISN’T IT PURE LOGIC?

    SCRIPTURE IS NOT WRITTEN TO TELL US LOGICAL THINGS AT ALL, BUT TO REVEAL HIDDEN THINGS OF GOD, AND ONLY TO THOSE WHO ARE SUBJECT PRECISELY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT TO WORLDLY CORRUPTED WISDOM!

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE, A HUMAN BEING IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, 

    FOR SURE HE WAS HUNGRY EVEN AFTER 24 HOURS OF FASTING, NEVER MIND FORTY DAYS, PLUS THAT HE WAS MORE THAN PLEASED TO FAST, AS HE DID IT FOR THE WILL  AND GLORY OF THE FATHER, AS PROOF THAT

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S WORK, IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL OF HIS WORK!!

    THUS, JESUS WAS MORE INTERESTED IN ACCOMPLISHING THE FATHER’S SPIRITUAL WILL AND WORK AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME OF SATAN’S TEMPTATION, ATTENTION PLEASE

    HIDDEN WITHIN JESUS’ MIND READY TO BE REVEALED TO SATAN BY JESUS’ ANSWER, AND NOT WITHIN SATAN’S MINDSET AT ALL, SPIRITUALLY BLIND, AND FURTHER BLINDED BY GOD FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE TRUTH AND JUSTICE!

    NOW SINCE YOU AND IN THIS CASE ALSO Gene, ARE SIMPLY SPIRITUALLY BLIND AS WELL, WITH EVERY RESPECT:

    JESUS FASTED ALSO SPIRITUALLY, TO BE CLEAR:

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE,

    AS MUCH AS HE FASTED WITHOUT FOOD AND BECAME HUNGRY,

    HE AS THE SON OF GOD JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE ALSO FASTED WITHOUT

    THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT AND BECAME HUNGRY,

    WHEN THE FORTY DAYS WERE ENDED, JESUS THE SON OF GOD WAS NOT JUST

    HUNGRY BUT STARVING!

    YES Jodi, STARVING FOR JUSTICE, TRUTH AND TO ACCOMPLISH THE FATHER’S WORK!

    NOT WHILE BEING IN THE DESERT WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT FOR SURE,

    OK, Jodi and Gene!

    NOW, SATAN TESTED JESUS, NOT TO PROVOKE HIM TO MAKE USE OF  THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT AND

    TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD AS SUCH.

    NO NOT AT ALL! SATAN’S INSINUATION WAS BOTH SPIRITUAL AND PHYSICAL, AS HE WAS AWARE THAT JESUS, THE CHRIST, WAS BOTH DIVINE AND HUMAN. BOTH SON OF GOD AND SON OF MAN! SATAN WITH HIS TEMPTATION MEANT AND REFERRED TO OTHER THINGS MORE DIVINE, MORE RELATED TO JESUS’ TASK AS THE MESSIAH, THE CHRIST, AND HIS REDEMPTION, OF WHICH SATAN WAS STILL MORE THAN SCEPTIC, TO THE EXTENT

    THAT HE EVEN PULLED JESUS’ LEG.

    READ AGAIN WHAT SATAN ASKED JESUS TO PERFORM AND PONDER!

    If thou be the Son of God, say to this stone that it be made bread.

    NOW  I WILL EVENTUALLY EXPAND ON THE ABOVE STATEMENT FROM SATAN BUT NOT JUST NOW, AT LEAST NOT BEFORE YOU ALSO READ JESUS’ SCRIPTURAL STATEMENT AND PONDER  ON IT AS WELL, SIMPLY AS JESUS WAS ALSO  MORE MYSTERIOUS BY HIS WORDS TO SATAN!

    THE ONLY INTEREST IN JESUS,  PRECISELY TO SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE FROM THE FATHER, FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME

    FACE TO FACE WITH GOD, Well hinted out by Jesus in verse

    12 And Jesus answering, said to him: It is said:

    Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

    Asserted also in

    John 14:7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also:

     and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,

    he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 

    HIDDEN IN JESUS!

    A MESSAGE THAT LUCIFER/SATAN NEVER BELIEVED IN, THAT HE, SATAN WAS SUBJECT TO GOD, IN THIS CASE,

    SUBJECT TO JESUS; GODMAN ON SATAN’S PLANET! HERE IT COMES!

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON! WITH EVERY RESPECT: SUBJECT TO

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD MADE FLESH!

    Read, enjoy, and ponder!!!

    4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that MAN liveth not by BREAD alone,

    but by every WORD of God.

    THAT’S ENOUGH OF THAT FOR NOW.

    Nevertheless, Something to CHEW:

    I am the BREAD OF LIFE. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50This is the BREAD which cometh down from heaven; that if any MAN eat of it, he may NOT DIE. 51I am the LIVING BREAD which came down from heaven. If any MAN eat of this BREAD, he shall live forever; and the BREAD that I will give, is my FLESH, for the LIFE of the world.

    Now let’s read Matthew 4 verse

    11: Then the devil left him;

     and behold angels came and

     MINISTERED TO HIM.

    Hold on Jodi,

    DIDN’T THE DEVIL LEAVE JESUS, AND THE TEMPTATIONS ENDED?

    WHERE ABOUT IS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT THEN?

     

    Jodi, you produce scripture which only contradicts you:

    Luke 5:17….. the power of the Lord was present to heal them.

    ANSWER Jodi, READING THE ABOVE, WAS NOT THE POWER OF THE LORD

    ALWAYS PRESENT???

    YES OR NO Please.

    More to come!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945761
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……I agree with Danny, “Amen to your post”.

    John said, “hereby” (this is how we know ) the Spirit or,  (mind of truth) from the Spirit of or,  (mind of error), by the Spirit (mind of truth) which he (God) has given us’.

    peace and love to you and your Jodi……..gene

    #945762
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the HOLY SPIRIT

    Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and POWER, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

    Enough said…

    God bless

    #945763
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    I thought you had acknowledged that having the power of the Spirit goes without saying when one has been filled with the Spirit?

    Zechariah had been filled with the Spirit to then give prophecy, where it is simply understood and thus goes without saying, he thus had received the power of the Spirit to be able to give the prophecy. It certainly was not of his own power to give the prophecy now was it?

    Why do you continue to ignore that Jesus left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit? Actually, it seems more like you are not ignoring it, you just are treating it as if it holds absolutely no significance what so ever, which is truly egregious on your part. 

    Tell me Carmel what does this signify to you?

    Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan”

    YOU: THE SON OF GOD COULD NEVER GET HUNGRY PHYSICALLY!

    ME: Okay now is when I am ready to very much consider not conversing with you at all again, as you are totally deluded and are a complete waste of time.

    prior to Luke 4:14 we read, 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    God declared Jesus to be His Son and he left the river Jordan being filled with the Holy Spirit and then was LED BY THE SPIRIT into the wilderness.

    Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Carmel, prophecy was that a Son of Man, a son of David, God would make him into His own Son. Paul gives us the clear definition as to the image of a Son of God, they are not carnally minded they are after the Spirit and do not mind the flesh but the Spirit, and the Spirit  bears witness to their Spirit that they are a child of God and that they are being led by the Spirit of God.

    For you to say that Jesus was not God’s Son in the wilderness is an out right lie against the scriptures. You have four gospels that tell you that God Himself declared the man Jesus to be His Son at the moment that His Spirit came to abode in him. 

    MOREOVER,

    The beginning of Luke 4 and Jesus’s response shortly after to the temptation he faced in the wilderness directly identifies Jesus as God’s Son according to the very image that Paul gives us in Romans 8 of the Son.

    He was filled with the Holy Spirit and LED by that Spirit into the wilderness, those that are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

    He did not mind after the flesh, he was not carnally minded he was Spiritually minded where thus the Spirit bore witness to his spirit that he was a child of God, a Son. 

    As said before, prophecy is that the Spirit of the YHVH comes to abode in a Son of Man where he is anointed and sent out to speak YHVH’s words and do YHVH’s works, all things by the power of God’s Spirit. There is no scripture about the coming and going of God’s Spirit upon him, nor of an anointing and unanointing. God came do dwell in him at the river Jordan without measure and He never left him.

    Jesus left the wilderness where it is there that he began to manifest (make known) the various powers of the Spirit of God that he had been anointed with at the river Jordan.

    Carmel,

    devil/diabolos- false accuser, slanderer, deceiver

    satan/saw-tawn- adversary

    Paul teaches that it is the carnal mind that is at enmity against God, that it is not subject to the law nor indeed can be and that to be carnally minded is death. 

    and also, 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    Peter is called Satan– saw-tawn an adversary because he is being carnally minded, he has in mind the things of men.

    1 John 1:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil.

    Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    The children of the devil are children of the carnal mind where to be carnally minded is death, it’s that which has the power of death. Our weak mortal flesh arouses our carnal mind to serve our flesh above God.

    The Carnal Mind is a deceiver a slander against God telling us we must serve our flesh above God in order to live but as Jesus said when he was tempted in the wilderness by this devil, the carnal mind, that man must live not on bread alone but by every word that proceeds from God’s mouth.

    Carmel, it’s just absolute foolishness, pure idiotic mythology to tell me that Jesus was being tempted by some wicked fallen angel in the wilderness.  He went forty days without food and WHEN HE HUNGERED that is when the old serpent, saw-tawn, diablos visited him, it was his own carnal mind that was tempting him telling him to use the powers he had just been bestowed with to serve his flesh. His weak mortal body that hungered aroused his carnal mind to consider turning stones into bread to serve his hunger. This is common sense and likewise directly backed by scripture throughout the OT and NT.

    #945764
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You to Carmel

    Why do you continue to ignore that Jesus left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit?

    Me

    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting 👉upon him:
    [17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, 👉This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    I just want to say for now that the text does not say that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit the moment he came out of the water.

    I am wrong ?

    🙏

     

    #945765
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    The text of Luke 3 and 4 tell us that at the river Jordan Jesus was baptized and was praying and then the heavens opened up where the Holy Spirit descended in bodily shape like a dove upon him AND that he left the river Jordan “full of the Holy Spirit”.

    The Holy Spirit descended upon him at the river Jordan and he left the river Jordan full of the Holy Spirit. I believe this word to be true.

    Such is Isaiah’s prophecy fulfilled, the word of God made true in the flesh of Jesus.

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Furthermore,

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    So from direct text, we know that Jesus not only had YHVH’s Spirit come upon him being full of the Spirit at the river Jordan, but he was filled with that Spirit not by measure. 

    #945766
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You: I just want to say for now that the text does not say that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit the moment he came out of the water.

    I am wrong ?

    Me: YOU ARE PERFECTLY

    RIGHT!

    THE SPIRIT WAS FULL IN JESUS FROM HIS CONCEPTION AS

    A HUMAN BEING ON EARTH!

    AT THE RIVER JORDAN JESUS WAS ONLY REVEALED OFFICIALLY WHO HE WAS FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME, AND THE SPIRIT ASCENDED ONLY AS A SIGN IN ISRAEL

    FOR THE JEWS!

    1John 27 The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me:

    the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose. 

    READING THE ABOVE, WE KNOW THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST, IS LOWER THAN JESUS, NEVERTHELESS,

     READ  Luke 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

    THUS, JESUS  A HUMAN BEING NOT OF THIS WORLD, BORN OF THE HOLY GHOST WITH THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST, WAS FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST FROM HIS CONCEPTION AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    ALSO, JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS THE SON OF MAN, THE UNIQUE CARRIER OF GOD AS “THE BEGINNING”, Colossians 1:18, John 8:25, John17:5  THE VERY FIRST ACT BY GOD BEFORE THE WORLD of Genesis 1:1 WAS, BEFORE CREATION STARTED.

    WELL HINTED OUT HEREUNDER

    John 6:62 If then you shall see THE SON OF MAN ascend up where he was

    BEFORE?

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this: I have not spoken in secret

    from the beginning:

    from the time before it was done,

    I was there,

    and now the Lord God hath sent ME, and HIS SPIRIT.

    Isaiah 42:11BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him: my elect,

    my soul delighteth in him: I HAVE GIVEN my spirit upon him,

    he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

     

    Isaiah 61:1 THE spirit of the Lord IS UPON ME, 

    because the Lord HAS ANOINTED ME:

    HE HAS sent me to preach to the meek, to heal the contrite of heart, and to preach a release to the captives, and deliverance to them that are shut up.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945767
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean and Carmel……….if Jesus was born filled with the Holy Spirit in him at birth, then why is there not a single miracle recorded in our scriptures by him doing “UNTIL AFTER” he was baptized and sent into the wilderness?  If he was as you people say, “born filled with it”,  then why no miracles recorded being done through him, before he received the Holy Spirit at the Jordan river?

    If one exists, please enlighten us to it. Scripture tells us that the first miracle was turning the water into wine at the wedding feast, but that took place “AFTER”  he came back from the wilderness,

    Berean you and Carmel spend most all your time here “muddying the waters of truth”  IMO. 

    peace and love to you and yours ………..gene

     

     

     

    #945768
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    Carmel: AT THE RIVER JORDAN JESUS WAS ONLY REVEALED OFFICIALLY WHO HE WAS FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME, AND THE SPIRIT ASCENDED ONLY AS A SIGN IN ISRAEL

    ME: What he has said above is a complete falsehood that goes against direct text, it is against the very clear word of God.

    At the river Jordan the Spirit descended and CAME TO ABODE UPON Jesus

    ABODE UPON- TO DWELL/LIVE IN

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    Isaiah 61 IS ALSO A PROPHECY :1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove UPON HIM, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, AND IT ABODE UPON HIM. 33. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and REMAINING ON HIM

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord IS UPON ME, BECAUSE he hath ANOINTED ME TO PREACH the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight  o the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God GIVETH not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Recall that Carmel said, “THE SPIRIT ASCENDED ONLY AS A SIGN IN ISRAEL”, but the scriptures say otherwise,

    Jesus OF NAZARETH was GIVEN the Holy Spirit without measure at the river Jordan, it came to ABODE/LIVE IN him and REMAIN in him. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit and WITH POWER for the purpose that he be sent out to preach God’s words and do God’s works. 

    #945769
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Having the Spirit does not automatically mean performing miracles.
    And furthermore, there is a season for everything, and for Jesus this was evident after his baptism for his public ministry.

    But God’s purpose through Jesus was/is to be the one who takes away the sin of the world by preaching the good news of the kingdom of God.

    Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach 👉the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to 👉heal the brokenhearted, 👉to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering 👉of sight to the blind, to 👉set at liberty them that are bruised,
    [19] To 👉preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

     

    #945770
    Berean
    Participant

    Isa.53
    [1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? 👉for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.👈
    [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: 👉when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, 👈he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and 👉he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.👈

    #945771
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Carmel, it’s just absolute foolishness, pure idiotic mythology to tell me that Jesus was being tempted by some wicked fallen angel in the wilderness.

    Me: I was very surprised and disappointed to read this comment.
    The Bible clearly teaches that Satan is a real person.
    Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

    I could give you more Bible verses but this one is sufficient.

    God bless

    #945772
    T3
    Participant

    Rather than post a long reply here, I’ve attempted to answer this question here: https://socraticchristianity.com/books/testing-the-trinity/the-word-of-god/. (In the spirit of full disclosure, I find the doctrine of the Trinity to be…lacking, in both substance and logic.).

    #945773
    T3
    Participant

    Check out this link for a different perspective than the “standard response.”. https://socraticchristianity.com/books/testing-the-trinity/the-word-of-god/

    #945774
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DD,

    You: Hi Carmel,

    Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the HOLY SPIRIT…

    Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and POWER, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

    Enough said…

    God bless

    Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of good reputation full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 5And the saying pleased the whole multitude:

    and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost,

    and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: 6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

    8 And Stephen, FULL OF FAITH AND POWER, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

     

    Me: In verse 6.3 it is mentioned that seven men of good reputation full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom were to be selected.

    In verse 6:5 SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT OUT OF THE SEVEN SELECTED, ONLY STEPHEN IS A MAN FULL OF FAITH AND THE HOLY GHOST.

    IN VERSE 6.8 SCRIPTURE AGAIN SAYS THAT OUT OF THE SEVEN SELECTED ONLY STEPHEN IS FULL OF FAITH AND POWER and did great wonders and miracles among the people.

    WHY IT WAS ESSENTIAL FOR THE SCRIPTURE IN VERSE 6.8   TO MAKE US AWARE AGAIN THAT ONLY STEPHEN NOT ONLY FULL OF THE SPIRIT BUT ALSO  OF POWER and did great wonders and miracles among the people?

    OBVIOUS! JUST READING ONLY VERSE 6.5 IS NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED, THAT STEPHEN SIMPLY BECAUSE HE WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, WAS ALSO IN POWER TO PERFORM GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES. THE FACT THAT SCRIPTURE NEVER MENTIONED THAT THE SAME PROCESS OF THE SPIRIT OCCURRED ALSO TO THE OTHER SIX  SELECTED.  

    NOW READ AGAIN PLEASE WHAT I SAID IN MY POST TO YOU.

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

    Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

     
    Luke 1:67 And Zachary his father was filled with the Holy Ghost; and he prophesied, saying:

    Well, there you go. It couldn’t be any clearer.

    THE ABOVE INDIVIDUALS ARE ONLY FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, BUT DEFINITELY NOT IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT

    TO PERFORM MIRACLES.

    NOW, THEY WERE UNDER A SORT OF POWER OF THE SPIRIT FOR SURE, BUT MOST CERTAIN, FIRST NOT IN THE UNIQUE POWER WITHOUT MEASURE, AND SECOND THE MOST CRUCIAL, THE POWER WAS NOT MEANT TO REMAIN INCESSANTLY IN THE INDIVIDUALS FOR NOTHING, ESPECIALLY BEFORE JESUS’ REDEMPTION AND GLORIFICATION.

    THUS, NEITHER THE POWER REMAINED CONTINUOUSLY IN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, ATTENTION PLEASE: DURING HIS PUBLIC LIFE, BEFORE HIS DEATH, AND GLORIFICATION!

    JESUS HAD TWO NATURES, DIVINE AND HUMAN, SON OF GOD AND SON OF MAN. JESUS THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE AS WEAK AS HUMANS SUBJECT TO DEATH, DURING HIS PUBLIC LIFE COULD NOT POSSESS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT CONTINUOUSLY IN HIM AS HIS OWN.

    ONCE JESUS, FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHER AND CREATION, EMPTIED HIMSELF OF HIS DIVINE ATTRIBUTES AND BECAME AS WEAK AS HUMANS HIS BODY COULD NOT WITHSTAND THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER INCESSANTLY IN HIM!

    THE POWER IS OF THE FATHER, WHO INDWELLED THE HOLY GHOST, GOD’S SOUL, IN JESUS’SOUL, THE SON OF GOD, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE! Isaiah 42:1

    NOW, BETWEEN JESUS’ FLESH BODY AND THE SPIRIT THERE IS PRECISELY THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’ SOUL, THE SON OF GOD, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE,

    THE CARRIER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD AND HIS POWER.

    THE FREE WILL OF THE HUMAN JESUS.

    NOW, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, OF HIS FREE WILL!

    THUS, JESUS THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE, MUST REJECT ENTIRELY HIS HUMAN FREE WILL AND GIVE ROOM ONLY TO THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER TO DO HIS WILL, THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST ABIDING IN

    JESUS’SOUL.

    I REPEAT: THE FREE WILL OF THE HUMAN JESUS!

    NOW ASK YOURSELF PLEASE, IF JESUS THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE, IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, HENCE,

    WITH FREE WILL,

    TO BE CLEAR LIKE YOU, ME, AND EVERYBODY ELSE ON THIS PLANET,

    COULD HE BE BOTH IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT TO DO ONLY THE FATHER’S WILL NO MATTER WHAT, AND AT THE SAME TIME ALSO

    HAD THE OPTION TO DO HIS FREE WILL AND REJECT THE FATHER’S WILL.

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT EVEN SENT BY THE SPIRIT HIMSELF FOR FORTY DAYS TO LIVE IN THE WILDERNESS WITHOUT FOOD AND AT THE VERY END, GET HUNGRY TO BE TESTED BY THE DEVIL!

    IT’S PURE NONSENSE!!

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, JESUS HUMAN NATURE, IN ALL THINGS  LIKE HIS BRETHREN, UNDER THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WOULD NEVER BE LIKE HIS BRETHREN AND BECOME HUNGRY AT ALL, NEVER MIND BE TEMPTED TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD.

    THE TEST THAT JESUS HAD IN THE WILDERNESS WAS TO PROVE THAT HE HAD FREE WILL LIKE HIS BRETHREN,

    AND HE HIMSELF OPTED TO DO THE FATHER’S WILL BEFORE CREATION STARTED EVEN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    DIE FOR OUR SAKE, AND REDEEM THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME SATAN’S PROPERTY THROUGH THE SIN IN THE GARDEN!

    THE FACT THAT SATAN ASKED JESUS PRECISELY IN THE VERY FIRST TEMPTATION,

    TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD!

    CONVINCED THAT JESUS, AS A HUMAN, WAS NEITHER THE SON OF GOD NOR IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    WHICH IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO JESUS’ SPIRITUAL TASK AS THE REDEEMER OF THE HUMAN RACE, SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN THEIR SOULS WITH SATAN’S PRESENCE ABIDING IN THEM FROM ADAM’S SIN!

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, TO BE CLEAR, NOT THE SON OF GOD, HAD TO BE FREE LIKE HIS BRETHREN, WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT TO BE IN THE POSITION TO OPT, THE FACT THAT JESUS HAD TO BE TESTED PRECISELY BEFORE

    HE COMMENCES HIS FATHER’S WORK AND DOES ONLY THE FATHER’S WILL AT ALL COSTS!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #945775
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @srs0467aol-com

    Without reading your website, please answer this question.

    Do you believe God is a triune being?

    Yes / No / Don’t know.

    #945777
    T3
    Participant

    @Proclaimer: I do not.  I have tried for almost 30 years to find clear evidence of “three persons in the Godhead” from Scripture, and it simply isn’t there.  Not a single verse proclaims this “essential truth”.  It is a framework extrapolated from Scripture, constructed over 300+years of debate and speculation on the nature of Christ, and was ultimately settled by two Roman emperors deciding that the debate needed to end.  It is an extra-Biblical doctrine that I believe Paul would conclude is a “hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than Christ”.  This doesn’t mean that it is therefore worthless, by definition, but it certainly calls into question how something that isn’t stated plainly in Scripture can possibly be viewed as the ultimate arbiter of Christian orthodoxy.

    #945778
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Carmel, it’s just absolute foolishness, pure idiotic mythology to tell me that Jesus was being tempted by some wicked fallen angel in the wilderness.

    Me: I was very surprised and disappointed to read this comment.
    The Bible clearly teaches that Satan is a real person.
    Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

    I could give you more Bible verses but this one is sufficient.

    God bless

    #945779
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    I know I opened up a can of worms giving my understanding from scripture as to who the diabolos/saw-tawn tempting Jesus was and I thank you for responding specifically about the “Satan” we read of in the book of Job, to further the discussion.

    You:

    The Bible clearly teaches that Satan is a real person.
    Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

    ME: After quit a bit of study I do not see that scripture supports the idea that there is ONE person/being called Satan.

    In Hebrew Satan -saw-tawn – adversary

    In Greek Satan -satanas – adversary

    In the OT God’s angels are called saw-tawn and David’s human enemies are called saw-tawn.

    First time the word saw-tawn appears is in Numbers,

    Numbers 22:22 And God’s anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

    An angel of the LORD was a SAW-TAWN/adversary against him. God’s faithful angels could literally be called SAW-TAWN. 

    Think about that for a minute Danny. God said that He would bring forth blessing and warned that He would also bring forth CURSING and we know that it is His angels who deliver such commands from God. An angel delivering a curse unto a person or people would be called a SAW-TAWN.

    The word Satan should not even exist in the English translations, it’s only because of doctrine that we see the word Satan. Young Literal’s translation is correct, rendering the English word adversary each time in the OT and NT. 

    There is an adversary in the book of Job, he’s an adversary unto Job bringing forth cursing. What we know of this adversary unto Job is that he presents himself before the LORD and that he obeys every command of the LORD. We also know that he was correct about the heart of Job and from the cursing Job in the end repents and then is blessed by God. ALSO, Job and the writer of the book of Job declare the cursing had COME FROM GOD.  

    Job 1:7 The LORD said to adversary, “Where have you come from?” adversary answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

    Zecharia 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. 10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth. 11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

    2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

    2 Samuel 24:16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

    2 Chronicles 32: And the Lord sent an angel who destroyed every mighty warrior, commander and officer in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned in shame to his own land. And when he had entered the temple of his god, some of his own children killed him there with the sword.

    Proverbs 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.

    Proverbs 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

    Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

    The LORD pondereth the hearts of man and He has messengers that roam to and fro on the earth watching man. The LORD will send forth His Angels who are indeed at times SAW-TAWN against man, bringing forth cursing/destruction. I do not see any evidence in the book of Job that shows that the adversary mentioned is some wicked being or an enemy to God who God has cast out. On the contrary, this individual presents himself before God among the Sons of God and he obeys all of God’s commands. The fact that Job and the writer of Job attributes Job’s cursing as coming from the very hand of God likewise shows that the adversary IS OF God and only an adversary unto Job.

    I have much more to speak of and scriptures to give regarding this topic and will post again soon. I look forward to discussing this more with you.

    #945780
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    I agree that others can be called satan, because they are acting as adversaries.
    But there is definitely this wicked fallen angel, or more precisely, cherub.
    He is also called “the accuser of the brethren” (Revelation 12:10).
    That’s exactly what he did with Job.

    So for me this topic is settled.
    I’m not interested to discuss this any further.
    No offense!

    God bless

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