John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,221 through 25,240 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #945725
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    You: SATAN ENTERED JESUS’ HUMAN SOUL AGAINST HIS WILL, BY THE VINEGAR!!

    Me: I’ve never heard such rubbish. What you said has nothing to do with the Bible.

    #945726
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DD,

    You: Hi Carmel,

    You: SATAN ENTERED JESUS’ HUMAN SOUL AGAINST HIS WILL,

    BY THE VINEGAR!!

    Me: I’ve never heard such rubbish.

    SO WHAT?

    I BELIEVE IT IS RUBBISH TO YOU, 

    AS IT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE TO SEE  NOT  HEAR I’M AFRAID! BUT ALWAYS BY THE SPIRIT!

     IT IS ALSO ONE OF THOSE MANY NONSENSE YOU BELIEVE IN. 

     

    Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.

    7Ask, and it shall be given you:

    seek, and you shall find:

    knock, and it shall be opened to you. 

    8For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened. 9Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone? 10Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent? 11If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

    NOW WASN’T JESUS SUPPOSED A CRIMINAL?

    NOW, AS A CRIMINAL HIS SOUL BECAME SATAN’S PROPERTY, AND WAS CONDEMNED TO ETERNAL DEATH IN HELL NO? 

    WHO ELSE UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME, WOULD HAVE TAKEN JESUS’ HUMAN SOUL TO HELL IF NOT SATAN?

    THE FACT THAT JESUS HAD TO FACE DEATH FOR SUCH PURPOSE!

    THAT THROUGH DEATH JESUS WOULD DESTROY SATAN, WHICH HE DID!

    BUT HOW I RATHER NOT TELL YOU SINCE IT IS NONSENSE AND RUBBISH TO YOU!

    Hebrews 2:14 Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same: that,

    through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death,

    that is to say, the devil:

     

    Read please:

    Matthew 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul:

    but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. 

    NOW TO:

    Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,

    being made a curse for us:

    for it is written: Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree:

    Genesis 3:17 …..cursed is the earth in thy work; …… 

    IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES, BOTH JESUS AND THE EARTH WERE CURSED!

    ANSWER DD,

    HOW AND BY WHICH PROCESS JESUS  AND THE EARTH WERE CURSED?

     

    Mark 11: 12 And the next day when they came out from Bethania,

    he was hungry.

    13And when he had seen afar off a fig tree having leaves, he came if perhaps he might find anything on it.

    And when he was come to it, he found nothing but leaves.

    For it was not the time for figs.

    DD, THE ABOVE  IS ALSO ONE OF THOSE

    NONSENSE YOU BELIEVE IN.

    CAN YOU SEE IT?

    BUT I TELL YOU IT IS NOT NONSENSE AT ALL!

    14And answering he said to it:

    May no man hereafter eat fruit of thee anymore forever.

    DD, Answer please:

    TO WHOM JESUS SAID THE ABOVE WORDS?

    DON’T TELL ME TO THE TREE FOR GOD’S SAKE!

    CAN YOU TELL ME ALSO WHAT THE FRUIT MENTIONED BY JESUS IS THAT THE MAN EATS?

    And his disciples heard it. 15 And they came to Jerusalem.

    And when he was entered into the temple, he began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the chairs of them that sold doves. 16And he suffered not that any man should carry a vessel through the temple;

    CONSIDERING WHAT JESUS SAID SUPPOSED TO THE TREE,

    WHAT DOES THE ABOVE SIGNIFY?

    I MEAN, THAT JESUS CAST OUT ALL OF THEM THAT SOLD AND BOUGHT IN THE TEMPE!

    WHAT ALL THE ELEMENTS REPRESENT IN THE ABOVE EVENT?

    17 And he taught, saying to them: Is it not written, My house shall be called the house of prayer to all nations?

    But you have made it a den of thieves.

    20And when they passed by in the morning they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21And Peter remembering, said to him:

    Rabbi, behold the fig tree, which thou didst curse, is withered away.

    IS IT MORE NONSENSE TO YOU THAT THE TREE WITHERED AWAY AFTER JESUS’ CURSE, DIDN’T JESUS KNOW, WHO KNOWS ALL THINGS, THAT THE TREE HAD NO FIGS AT ALL? AFTER ALL, IT WAS NOT THE TIME FOR FIGS. 

    IS IT PURE NONSENSE AND RUBBISH TO YOU???

    You: What you said has nothing to do with the Bible.

    ME:  DOES THE STORY OF THE CURSE OF THE FIG TREE ABOVE, ALSO HAVE  NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BIBLE? 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #945727
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    I have ZERO interest in what you believe the truth is according to your “spiritual mind”.

    If you are not producing a summary from DIRECT passages, then to me you are spewing nothing but lies from your own imagination that is under strong delusion.

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Spirit returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    Now Carmel, here is some common sense truth,

    Jesus at the river Jordan had the Holy Spirit come to abode in him. He then left the river Jordan being FULL of the Holy Spirit and was led by that Spirit into the wilderness where he would be tempted to which was a test. He indeed had the power to make bread from stone and it was very tempting for him to do so because he hungered, but Jesus knew that man is to serve God above the flesh, that man cannot live on bread alone but every word of God. Jesus was able to overcome the temptation because he had the fullness  of the Spirit in him. Not only had he been filled with miraculous powers of the Spirit, he had been filled with the Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for YHVH.

    I am curious Carmel if you are capable of defining/ giving the identity of Satan/Devil from direct scripture and direct scripture alone?

    #945728
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    You are adding to God’s Word.
    The Bible never said that “SATAN ENTERED JESUS’ HUMAN SOUL AGAINST HIS WILL, BY THE VINEGAR!!”

    Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

    #945729
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    If you are not producing a summary from DIRECT passages, then to me you are spewing nothing but lies from your own imagination that is under strong delusion.

     1Corinthians 12: 7And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit. 8To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; 9To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit; 10To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches. 11But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh,

    dividing to everyone according as he will. 

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Spirit returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 

    Me: Jodi and in this case Gene, WHERE DOES SCRIPTURE SAY THAT JESUS WAS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WHILE HE WAS IN THE WILDERNESS?

    JESUS WAS ONLY LED BY THE SPIRIT TO BE TESTED AS A HUMAN BEING IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN! 

    AND SATAN, THE DEVIL, IS NOT THAT STUPID TO TEST THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    You:  He indeed had the power to make bread from stone.

    John5:19 Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you,

    the Son cannot do anything of himself,…..

    HOW ON EARTH COULD JESUS BE TESTED AND EVENTUALLY SIN IF HE WAS UNDER THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT? 

    IT’S ILLOGICAL AND

     PURE NONSENSE!

    ALSO, SATAN, BEELZEBUB, THE PRINCE OF THE DEVILS, THE SERPENT, AND GOD KNOWS WHAT, WAS ONLY READY TO TEMPT HUMANS, NOT THE SON OF GOD! DIVINE!!!

    HE IS SUPERIOR TO HUMANS ONLY!

    LIKE HE ALWAYS DID AND DOES!!!

    NOT SUPERIOR TO THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

    IN THE SAME WAY HE TEMPTED EVE.

    THE FACT THAT HE NEVER TEMPTED ADAM WHO RECEIVED THE SPIRIT FROM GOD.

    Now read please:

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the spirit, into Galilee,……

    Jodi, THE ABOVE VERSE CLEARLY SAYS THAT JESUS, ONLY AFTER HE LEFT THE DESERT WAS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT.

    You: I am curious Carmel if you are capable of defining/ giving the identity of Satan/Devil from direct scripture and direct scripture alone?

    Enjoy:

    Luke 10:17 And the seventy-two returned with joy, saying: Lord, the devils also are subject to us in thy name. 18And he said to them:

    I saw Satan like lightening falling from heaven. 

    Luke 11:14 And he was casting out a devil, and the same was dumb: and when he had cast out the devil, the dumb spoke: and the multitudes were in admiration at it: 15But some of them said: He casteth out devils by Beelzebub, the prince of devils. 16And others tempting, asked of him a sign from heaven. 17But he seeing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself, shall be brought to desolation, and house upon house shall fall. 18 And if Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because you say, that through Beelzebub I cast out devils.

    Zechariah 3:1 And the Lord shewed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord: and Satan stood on his right hand to be his adversary. 2And the Lord said to Satan: The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan: and the Lord that chose Jerusalem rebuke thee: Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

    Job 1:6 Now on a certain day when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them. 7And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou ? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it. 8And the Lord said to him: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a simple and upright man, and fearing God, and avoiding evil? 9And Satan answering, said: Doth Job fear God in vain ? 10Hast not thou made a fence for him, and his house, and all his substance round about, blessed the works of his hands, and his possession hath increased on the earth ? 11But stretch forth thy hand a little, and touch all that he hath, and see if he blesseth thee not to thy face. 12Then the Lord said to Satan: Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand: only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Satan

    Satan, in the three major Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), the prince of evil spirits and adversary of God. Satan is traditionally understood as an angel (or sometimes a jinnī in Islam) who rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven with other “fallen” angels before the creation of humankind. Ezekiel 28:14–18 and Isaiah 14:12–17 are the key Scripture passages that support this understanding, and, in the New Testament, in Luke 10:18 Jesus states that he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. In all three major Abrahamic religions, Satan is identified as the entity (a serpent in the Genesis account) that tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden and was thus the catalyst for the fall of humankind. (For further discussion of Satan in Islam, see Iblīs. For further discussion of Satan in Jewish folklore, see Samael.)

    The word Satan is the English transliteration of a Hebrew word for “adversary” in the Bible. With the definite article, the Hebrew word denotes “the adversary” par excellence, mainly in the Book of Job, where the adversary comes to the heavenly court with the “sons of God.” His task is to roam the earth (like a contemporaneous Persian official) seeking out acts or persons to be reported adversely (to the king); his function thus is the opposite of that of the “eyes of the Lord,” which roam the earth strengthening all that is good. Satan is cynical about disinterested human goodness and is permitted to test it under God’s authority and control and within the limits that God sets. In Judaism it is sometimes understood that, as adversary, Satan acts as something of a divine prosecutor for God; the two figures are not seen as antithetical.

    If you are not producing a summary from DIRECT passages, then to me you are spewing nothing but lies from your own imagination that is under strong delusion.

    Me: Jodi there’s only one way to justify what you said above:

    here it is again:

    Luke 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

    WHAT DID THE DEVIL MEAN WHEN HE ASKED JESUS TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    IF SATAN WAS CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS A MERE MAN, WASN’T HE ALSO CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PERFORM SUCH POWERFUL DEED? HE WAS NO?

    SO WHAT DID HE MEAN REALLY, WITH THAT KIND OF EXTRAORDINARY STATEMENT?

    You: What spiritually minded is absolutely not, is the belief that God intentionally made scripture to be not what it appears to be and then He chooses certain men to be spiritually minded so that they can then tell us what the actual truth is supposed to be.

    Me: fine Jodi,

    IT’S YOUR TURN NOW TO JUSTIFY WHAT YOU SAID ABOVE?

    JUST TO GIVE YOU A HINT,

    SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING, REFLECT PLEASE:

    ON THE STONE AND THE BREAD!

    AND ALSO ON

    JESUS’ HUNGER!

     

    I AM WAITING!

     

    In the meantime, read the three tests:

     

    3And the devil said to him: If thou be the Son of God,

    say to this stone that it be made bread.

     7If thou therefore wilt adore before me, all shall be thine.

    If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself from hence. 10For it is written, that He hath given his angels charge over thee, that they keep thee.

    Notice Jodi ONLY THE FIRST TEST IS SUPERNATURAL, THE OTHER TWO ARE VERY SIMPLE AND IN ACTUAL FACT, MORE PROVOCATIVE, AND ENTICING  FOR A HUMAN BEING!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945730
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    I have ZERO interest in what you believe the truth is according to your “spiritual mind”.

    If you are not producing a summary from DIRECT passages, then to me you are spewing nothing but lies from your own imagination that is under strong delusion.

    Jodi……..Amen, to that, I also have ZERO interest in what his “delusional mind”.  Comes up with.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #945731
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Jesus can do nothing of himself, he gives credit to the Spirit that came to abode in him at the river Jordan and he says he does not follow his own will but does the will of the Father. Following his own will instead of God’s would have been him giving into temptation.

    No temptation exists then by what you are saying, the temptation was that he could turn stones into bread to feed his hunger, if he didn’t have the power to do so there is NO temptation and thus there would be no point of him going into the wilderness to be tempted. You speak absolute nonsense Carmel.

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    The Spirit came to abode in Jesus at the river Jordan and you keep leaving out the first part of Luke 1 that says he was NOT ONLY led by the Spirit into the wilderness but that he went into the wilderness upon having been FILLED with the Holy Spirit, such includes miraculous powers of the Spirit, like that of also being able to turn water into wine, heal the blind and raise the dead. This power all comes from the Spirit coming upon him at the river Jordan. 

    There are NO scriptures that speak to mortal Jesus receiving the Spirit twice where a second time involves receiving powers.

    On the contrary, Luke 4:18 attributes the Spirit upon him where he speaks God’s words and where he is also able to perform miracles. He who speaks God’s words we are given in John 3 is he who had received the Spirit NOT BY MEASURE. At Pentecost men (his brethren) received the Holy Spirit and they were given powers of the Spirit as well. 

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

    The passages saying that Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee does not at all equate to him thus just having received the power of the Spirit.  Notice what is said after, he is being glorified by all through his teaching, which he also does through the powers of the Spirit. The Spirit coming to abode in him at the river Jordan gave him all sorts of abilities to which brought him fame.

    Power- Dunamis strength, power, ability

    The mention of him having power of the Spirit going into Galilee is in the context of him becoming famous, not in him just having received that power.

     

    #945732
    Jodi
    Participant

    Carmel,

    YOU: Notice Jodi ONLY THE FIRST TEST IS SUPERNATURAL, THE OTHER TWO ARE VERY SIMPLE AND IN ACTUAL FACT, MORE PROVOCATIVE, AND ENTICING  FOR A HUMAN BEING!

    ME: I don’t think you quite realize that you are trying to prove something thinking that I believe other things as you do, when I absolutely don’t.  This is why what you post is just nonsense on top of nonsense to me. You do realize that I believe Jesus was a human being at all times and to this day he sits at God’s right hand as a human being and he is returning to earth as a human being.  A human being can be born of God’s Spirit, this doesn’t change what kind of being he is, he is still human, he is a human being that bears the fruit of all goodness, righteousness and truth. In addition God can give certain powers/abilities of His Spirit for human beings to perform.

    #945734
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi “Amen”,  because they didn’t receive the  love of the “TRUTH”, but would rather follow the false teachings of their churches,  God has sent unto them a “deluding Spirit”, in order for them ( the modern apostate churches) to,  “believe LIES”. 
    When Jesus returns, he will reject them , “and I turn, they will reject him, and call him the “ANTICHRIST” ,  they are already “PREDISPOSED ” to do that,  by their false teachings of the Doctrine of the “ANTICHRIST” , who they say  will come before the return of Jesus.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………gene

     

    #945745
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    You: I have ZERO interest in what you believe the truth is according to your “spiritual mind”.

    If you are not producing a summary from DIRECT passages, then to me you are spewing nothing but lies from your own imagination that is under strong delusion.

    Me: HERE IS A DIRECT PASSAGE READ:

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, into Galilee,……

    Jodi, ONLY THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT JESUS WAS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, AND ONLY AFTER HE WAS TESTED, LEFT THE DESERT, AND AS THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE,

     THE ONLY NATURE TO BE TESTED,

     

    JESUS WAS JUSTIFIED THE CHRIST, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD MADE FLESH, PROCEEDED AND  SENT FROM THE FATHER, UNIQUE NOT OF THIS WORLD, OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    ATTENTION PLEASE:

    ALSO THE SON OF GOD IN HIS SOUL, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE, NEVERTHELESS IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, BOTH  LIKE ADAM IN HIS SOUL AND LIKE EVE IN HIS FLESH, THE NEW ADAM, AND  MADE IT CLEAR TO SATAN THAT HE, AS A HUMAN BEING IN THE FLESH OF EVE, THE SON OF MAN, I REPEAT THE ONLY NATURE TO BE TESTED, AS PROOF THAT HE WAS NOT OF THIS WORLD SATANIC, ALL INDEBTED TO SATAN, WAS  ONLY READY TO DO THE FATHER’S WILL AS A HUMAN BEING, DESPITE HE WAS ALSO THE SON OF GOD IN THAT SAME INSTANT WITH THE FULL POWER OF THE SPIRIT AT HIS DISPOSITION,
     

    ONLY ACCORDING TO THE FATHER’S WILL! 

     

    AS  SIMPLE AS THAT!

    NOW THIS TIME I’LL ASK YOU:

    WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF JESUS TRIED TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    SINCE JESUS WOULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, WOULD THE FATHER HAVE ACCEPTED AND DID WHAT JESUS WANTED TO DO?

    I MEAN HE TURNED THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    I AM WAITING!

    IN THE MEANTIME I’M AFRAID I ALSO HAVE TO REPEAT WHAT I ASKED YOU AGAIN AS IT STILL STANDS:

    Luke 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

    WHAT DID THE DEVIL MEAN WHEN HE ASKED JESUS TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    IF SATAN WAS CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS A MERE MAN, WASN’T HE ALSO CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PERFORM SUCH POWERFUL DEED? HE WAS NO?

    SO WHAT DID HE MEAN REALLY, WITH THAT KIND OF EXTRAORDINARY STATEMENT?

    You: What spiritually minded is absolutely not, is the belief that God intentionally made scripture to be not what it appears to be and then He chooses certain men to be spiritually minded so that they can then tell us what the actual truth is supposed to be.

    Me: fine Jodi,

    IT’S YOUR TURN NOW TO JUSTIFY WHAT YOU SAID ABOVE?

    JUST TO GIVE YOU A HINT,

    SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING, REFLECT PLEASE:

    ON THE STONE AND THE BREAD!

    AND ALSO ON

    JESUS’ HUNGER!

     

    I AM STILL WAITING!

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945748
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Ephesians 3: 1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

    2 Timothy 1: 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

    People, do not turn a blind eye to Ephesians 3 and 2 Timothy 1!

    Paul does not teach that God made all things by means of a pre-existing Jesus Christ, the context is clear, where he speaks absolutely nothing about Jesus existing in the beginning and being the one speaking creation into existence. The CONTEXT DIRECTLY TEACHES US that it is BY REASON OF JESUS CHRIST God had created all things, BECAUSE “the manifold wisdom of God, ACCORDING TO the eternal purpose, HE PURPOSED in Christ Jesus our Lord”.

    What is the context of John chapter 1? Does the chapter give detail to how Jesus was he who was in the beginning speaking creation into existence or does the chapter speak to Jesus and God’s eternal purpose in him, thus the reason why God would have created all things in the first place? 

    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    by means of or by reason of, 

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

    and NOT ONE VERSE ABOUT BY MEANS OF!

    Do not turn a blind eye, the context of John chapter 1 gives us WHY God would have made all things by reason of Jesus Christ and nothing at all about Jesus pre-existing having spoken God’s creation into existence.

    #945749
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: I have ZERO interest in what you believe the truth is according to your “spiritual mind”.

    If you are not producing a summary from DIRECT passages, 

    then to me you are spewing nothing but lies from your own imagination that is under strong delusion.

    Me: HERE IS A DIRECT PASSAGE READ:

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, into Galilee,……

    Jodi, ONLY THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT JESUS WAS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, AND ONLY AFTER HE WAS TESTED, LEFT THE DESERT, AND AS THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE,

     THE ONLY NATURE TO BE TESTED,
    JESUS WAS JUSTIFIED THE CHRIST, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD MADE FLESH, PROCEEDED AND  SENT FROM THE FATHER, UNIQUE NOT OF THIS WORLD, OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    ATTENTION PLEASE:

    ALSO THE SON OF GOD IN HIS SOUL, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE, NEVERTHELESS IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, BOTH  LIKE ADAM IN HIS SOUL AND LIKE EVE IN HIS FLESH, THE NEW ADAM, AND  MADE IT CLEAR TO SATAN THAT HE, AS A HUMAN BEING IN THE FLESH OF EVE, THE SON OF MAN, I REPEAT THE ONLY NATURE TO BE TESTED, AS PROOF THAT HE WAS NOT OF THIS WORLD SATANIC, ALL INDEBTED TO SATAN, WAS  ONLY READY TO DO THE FATHER’S WILL AS A HUMAN BEING, DESPITE HE WAS ALSO THE SON OF GOD IN THAT SAME INSTANT WITH THE FULL POWER OF THE SPIRIT AT HIS DISPOSITION,
     

    ONLY ACCORDING TO THE FATHER’S WILL! 

     

    AS  SIMPLE AS THAT!

    NOW THIS TIME I’LL ASK YOU:

    WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF JESUS TRIED TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    SINCE JESUS WOULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, WOULD THE FATHER HAVE ACCEPTED AND DID WHAT JESUS WANTED TO DO?

    I MEAN HE TURNED THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    I AM WAITING!

    IN THE MEANTIME I’M AFRAID I ALSO HAVE TO REPEAT WHAT I ASKED YOU AGAIN AS IT STILL STANDS:

    Luke 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

    WHAT DID THE DEVIL MEAN WHEN HE ASKED JESUS TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    IF SATAN WAS CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS A MERE MAN, WASN’T HE ALSO CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PERFORM SUCH A POWERFUL DEED? HE WAS NO?

    SO WHAT DID HE MEAN REALLY, WITH THAT KIND OF EXTRAORDINARY STATEMENT?

    WAS HE SO CONVINCED THAT HE WAS NOT ONLY PROVOKING JESUS, THE SON OF MAN BUT ALSO BY THE LOOK OF IT, EVEN PULLING JESUS’ LEG?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945750
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….SATAIN. was trying to deceive Jesus just as you are trying to deceive us.  Jesus did not fall for his deceptions. But you, it seem, have fallen for them, as testified by your words here.  Jesus through the Holy Spirit given him was using the very words of God himself which are written in our scriptures to out smarted Satan, something you seem unable to do.

    JODI is absolutely right in what she has posted, Jesus was sent out into the wilderness by the Spirit of God to be tested by Satan the devil, 40 days and nights, and overcame him,  by the words of God the Father, that was being given him by the Holy Spirit he had received after he was baptized in the Jordan river, just as scripture clearly shows us all, who have the Spirit of him,  who raised Jesus from the dead dwelling in them.

    Carmel you own words prove over and over here you simply have no part in truth of God, sad! ,

    peace and love to you and yours ………..gene

     

    #945751
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    The Spirit of God came on Jesus after his baptism. (Matthew 3:16)
    So for me it is very clear that at that point Jesus had the power of the Spirit.
    Please read Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…
    Well, there you go. It couldn’t be any clearer.

    #945752
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DD,

    You: Hi Carmel,

    The Spirit of God came on Jesus after his baptism. (Matthew 3:16) So for me it is very clear that at that point Jesus had the power of the Spirit.

    ME: THAT DOES NOT EQUATE THAT JESUS WAS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT AT ALL!

    Me: Please read hereunder:

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, into Galilee,……

    DD,  ONLY THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT JESUS WAS IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT,

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    AND ONLY AFTER HE WAS TESTE AND, LEFT THE DESERT!

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    Please read Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…

    Well, there you go. It couldn’t be any clearer.

    PLEASE READ HEREUNDER:

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

    Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    Luke 1:67 And Zachary his father was filled with the Holy Ghost; and he prophesied, saying:

    Well, there you go. It couldn’t be any clearer.

    THE ABOVE INDIVIDUALS ARE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, BUT DEFINITELY, THEY WERE NOT IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT TO PERFORM MIRACLES.

    NOW TO

    Acts 1:6They therefore who were come together, asked him, saying: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7But he said to them:

    It is not for you to know the times or moments,

    which the Father hath put in his own power: 

    8But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.

    AS YOU CAN WELL READ JESUS MENTIONED THE POWER OF THE FATHER CONCERNING HIS STATE OF ALL-KNOWING!

    NOW JESUS ALSO MEANT THAT THEY WOULD RECEIVE THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT CONCERNING THEIR PARTICULAR DEED TO BE PERFORMED!

    ON THE OTHER HAND, JESUS HAD THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE, OBVIOUS,  AS JESUS HAD THE FATHER HIMSELF IN HIM, 

    NOT JUST THE POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    AS IN OUR CASE MENTIONED ABOVE, SENT FROM THE FATHER BY OUR LORD GOD JESUS CHRIST. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945753
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    As I said before, pay attention to the context.

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

    Luke 5:15 But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities. 16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.17 And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was present to heal them.

    Carmel, your position is absurd, totally ridiculous in the face of scripture.

    Luke 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Luke 1:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness…

    …18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    There exists NO scripture that says Jesus received the power of the Spirit after he was tempted in the wilderness. Scripture says that he returned in the power of the Spirit where fame began to spread of him. You are simply forcing the text to say something that it doesn’t actually say and that something all the while is against other clear scriptures.

     

    #945755
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    So are you saying that the Spirit of God was without power for a short time?

    #945756
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DD,

    You: Hi Carmel,

    So are you saying that the Spirit of God was without power for a short time?

    First and foremost WHO AM I TO DETERMINE THAT?

    WE ONLY HAVE THE SCRIPTURE TO DETERMINE WHAT’S WHAT, THOUGH NOT ALWAYS IN FULL CLARITY, FROM OUR SIDE, THE FACT THAT THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS!

    Just read AGAIN the scriptures I sent you please:

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

    Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    Luke 1:67 And Zachary his father was filled with the Holy Ghost; and he prophesied, saying:

    Did any of the above-mentioned have the power of the spirit to perform miracles?

    WHAT CAN YOU CONCLUDE FROM THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES?

    NOW ANSWER PLEASE;

    IS TO BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, EQUATES ALSO TO HAVE THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT TO PERFORM MIRACLES?

    YES OR NO PLEASE.

    More scripture to ponder on:

    John 2: And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee?

     my hour is not yet come.

    WHAT DID JESUS MEAN ABOVE?

    HE COULD HAVE REFERRED TO A PARTICULAR HOUR, LIKE THE HOUR OF HIS DEATH, BUT THE FACT IS THAT JESUS CONFIRMED THAT HE KNEW AND DID NOT  POSSESS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT INCESSANTLY  AND USED IT AS HE FELT FIT, BUT HE RECEIVED THE POWER ACCORDING AND  TO DO THE WILL OF GOD THE FATHER!

    JESUS WAS IN TRUTH A HUMAN BEING, AND FOR HIM TO POSSESS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT INCESSANTLY, FOR NO USE AS IN THE CASE DURING SLEEP, FIRST IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, SECOND JESUS’ FLESH AND BLOOD BODY IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, COULD NOT HAVE WITHSTOOD THREE YEARS AT ALL IF HE POSSESSED THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT INCESSANTLY EVEN FOR NO USE. TO BE CLEAR, IF HE NEVER HAD THE POWER AT ALL HE WOULD HAVE LIVED EVEN LONGER! 

    Luke 13:32And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow,

    and the third day I am consummated. 

    WHAT DID JESUS MEAN WITH THE ABOVE?

    COULD IT BE THAT JESUS’ FLESH BODY WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO USE THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT ANYMORE AND WAS READY TO BE BUTCHERED AND KILLED?

    ALSO:

    WAS JESUS WITH THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT DURING HIS PASSION?

    IF HE HAD THE POWER, WHAT FOR DID HE REQUIRE IT?

    HE WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PERFORM MIRACLES AND SUPERNATURAL DEEDS.

    Luke 5:17And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem:

    and the power of the Lord WAS PRESENT to heal them.

    READING  THE ABOVE, WAS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT ALWAYS AND CONTINUOUSLY PRESENT WITHIN JESUS?

    JESUS RECEIVED THE POWER WITHOUT MEASURE FIRST AND FOREMOST, THROUGH DEEP AND LONG PRAYERS BEFOREHAND, SECOND ALWAYS CONCERNING HIS DEEDS  TO BE PERFORMED, BUT FOR SURE HE RECEIVED THE POWER NOT TO MAINTAIN IT IN HIM FOR NO USE AT ALL, AGAIN ESPECIALLY SINCE HE WAS  A HUMAN BEING IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DETRIMENTAL TO HIS HUMAN FLESH AND BLOOD BODY! 

    JESUS RECEIVED THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT TO BE USED  FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AND GIVEN TO OTHERS TO HEAL THEM, AND ALSO TO PERFORM SUPERNATURAL DEEDS IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS! 

    Well asserted hereunder:

    John11:41 They took therefore the stone away. And Jesus lifting up his eyes said:

    Father, I give thee thanks that thou hast heard me. 

    42And I knew that thou hearest me always;

    but because of the people who stand about have I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 

    FROM THE ABOVE WE ARE AWARE THAT JESUS DIDN’T POSSESS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT INCESSANTLY AS HIS OWN AND USED IT AS HE FELT FIT, BUT ALWAYS FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, AND HE RECEIVED IT DIRECTLY FROM THE FATHER AT THE PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME WITHOUT MEASURE, TO USE IT IMMEDIATELY!

    IN THE DESERT JESUS, FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST FROM HIS CONCEPTION, NEVER POSSESSED THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, THAT WAS ONLY FOR JESUS’ PUBLIC LIFE FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AMONG HUMANS, IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME SATANIC!

    HE HAD TO ASK AND PRAY TO THE FATHER BEFORE HE RECEIVED THE POWER, HENCE GIVEN ONLY FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER! THIS IS THE PERFECT HARMONY EXISTED BETWEEN THE FATHER AND HIS SON! 

     

    Now to

    1Corinthins 12:And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit. 8To one indeed, by the Spirit,

    is given the word of wisdom: and to another,

    the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; 9To another,

    faith in the same spirit; to another,

    the grace of healing in one Spirit; 10To another,

    the working of miracles; to another,

    prophecy; to another,

    the discerning of spirits; to another,

    diverse kinds of tongues; to another,

    interpretation of speeches. 

    11But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to everyone according as he will.

    THE ABOVE IS A DESCRIPTION OF THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT SHARED WITHIN THE CHURCH AND NO ONE RECEIVES THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT IN FULL!

    ONLY JESUS RECEIVED ALL THE ABOVE  BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT  WITHOUT MEASURE, BUT NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945757
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    You: ONLY JESUS RECEIVED ALL THE ABOVE BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE, BUT NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED!

    ME: There exists no scriptural support for what you have stated what so ever. You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

    As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit here and there.  The idea that the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and abode in him, but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

    Jesus leaving the wilderness in the power of the Spirit, does not equate to him receiving it at that moment, that’s what you like to add to it so it fits with your doctrine.

    You seem to have at least recognized that it goes without saying, if one has the Spirit to give prophecy or perform miracles etc.., they have received a power of the Spirit to do so. 

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,..

    The word power is not used above, however we know that Zacharias was able to give prophecy because he had received a power of the Spirit to be able to do so. He was filled with the Spirit and he certainly did not turn and give prophecy according to his own power, that which he was filled with was the power to give prophecy.

    Luke 3: 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Prophecy was that Jesus would receive the Spirit of the Father and be able to preach, be able to perform miracles, etc.., not that the Spirit would come and go upon him. He wasn’t anointed of the Spirit and then unanointed and then anointed and then unanointed. The Father did not leave Jesus alone and the Father most certainly did not fill Jesus with His Spirit and then immediately after take it away when he went into the wilderness. According to scripture he was going into the wilderness having been filled with the Spirit.

    Carmel, if Jesus didn’t have the power of the Spirit to be able to turn stones into bread then there would have been zero temptation and you make the bible into complete nonsense.

    Because Jesus had been filled with the Spirit he had the ability to make stones into bread. 

    AND ALSO,

    Because Jesus had been filled with the Spirit he was able to overcome the temptation. 

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear (respect/reverence) of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

    Jesus was indeed tempted by the devil, he indeed had the power of the Spirit to make stones out of bread to feed his own hunger (otherwise no temptation existed and the bible would be a book of nonsense), but through him having also been filled with the Spirit of council and might, wisdom and understanding AND filled with REVERENCE FOR YHVH he WAS ABLE TO OVERCOME the temptation. 

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    Carmel, your understanding you are trying to teach on here I see is just totally awful. God was IN Jesus when he went into the wilderness, he had been filled with the Spirit of our heavenly Father not by measure, filled with powers, filled with council and might, and reverence for YHVH.  The Father did not leave him alone, such is how he was able to overcome the temptation. Likewise, God in us is the only way for us to overcome temptation.

     

    #945758
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    AMEN to your last post, Jodi.

    God bless

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