John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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December 31, 2023 at 8:20 am#945781
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@jodi
Hi Jodi,
I agree that others can be called satan, because they are acting as adversaries.
But there is definitely this wicked fallen angel, or more precisely, cherub.
He is also called “the accuser of the brethren” (Revelation 12:10).
That’s exactly what he did with Job.
So for me this topic is settled.
I’m not interested to discuss this any further.
No offense!
God bless
January 1, 2024 at 7:30 am#945788
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@jodi
Hi Jodi,
Sorry to post the same post the third time but there is a problem with this website. If I click on my last two posts to you then it will only show an older post.
I agree that others can be called satan, because they are acting as adversaries.
But there is definitely this wicked fallen angel, or more precisely, cherub.
He is also called “the accuser of the brethren” (Revelation 12:10).
That’s exactly what he did with Job.
So for me this topic is settled.
I’m not interested to discuss this any further.
No offense!
God bless
January 1, 2024 at 7:51 am#945789
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@admin
Hi Admin,
There is a problem with your website.
If I click on my latest posts, post-945780 and post-945781, then it will only show an older post. This always happens at the beginning of a new page.
January 6, 2024 at 7:09 am#945817
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@ All
Dear Friends,
The lying freemasons are even in our christian circles.
What are they doing?
Well, 1 John 2:23 explains it very well:
Whoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father.
Of course, this works both ways:
Whoever denies the Father, the same has not the Son.
That’s what it’s all about.
God bless
January 6, 2024 at 8:09 am#945818
Jodi
Participant
Hi Danny,
Well you certainly sound confident in your position but it’s unfortunate that you are saying you have no interest in defending it.
The adversary in the book of Job was not a FALSE accuser which is what a devil/diablols is, a slanderer/false accuser. The adversary in the book of Job was 100% CORRECT of his assessment of the heart of Job and as said he obeyed God’s every command. The book of Job does not identify at all that the adversary was a wicked slanderer. ALSO Job attributed the cursing he received as coming directly from God so Job saw that the adversary was indeed of God.
In Revelation 12 the accuser, spoken of in verse 10 is identified in verse 9 as a diabolos, so not just any kind of accuser, but specifically a false accuser.
There is another devil/diabilos spoken of in Revelation,
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Who is the devil-diabolos -false accuser throwing brethren into prison and persecuting them unto death Danny?
There is quite a list of wicked Roman emperors who persecuted Christians unto death, Nero, Vespasian, Domitian -extremely wicked and asked to be worshiped as a god and is who exiled John to the isle of Patmos where he then wrote Revelation. Then we have Trajan who expanded with his military the Roman empire more than any other ruler since Caesar Augustus. He loved bloody displays of horror in the gladiator games. Then there is Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius where Christian persecution increased. Maximinus the Thracian and Decius who in 250 started what has been called “The Decian Persecution”, all Christian worship was forbidden and Christians were forced to worship Roman gods or be killed. Then we have Valerian and Diocletian who is said to be one of the all time worst persecutors who had major blood lust and took to killing Christians even throughout the far reaches of the empire. Persecution continued with Constantius (father of Constantine) and Galerius.
These are all DEVILS Danny. Not only are humans referred to as the Devil but they are also referred to as dragons and beasts.
Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.
Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
ALL representation is of the earth, kings and kingdoms, not some wicked rebel spirit beings.
Major error to take literally the metaphorical language within scripture.
Judges 5:19 The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money. 20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera. 21 The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength.
Just like in the above passage where they are not literally fighting from heaven, the same is true in Revelation 12 and dragons and beasts are represented as humans with power.
There is not one scripture that speaks of fallen angels being likened to dragons, beasts, serpents etc (“fallen angel” isn’t even in the bible), but humans on the other hand are likened to such throughout scripture. What do humans have in common with these creatures Danny? They are all of a CARNAL MIND.

January 6, 2024 at 9:56 am#945819
Berean
Participant

@Jodi
You
There is not one scripture that speaks of fallen angels being likened to dragons, beasts, serpents etc (“fallen angel” isn’t even in the bible),….

Me
👇
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Rev.12
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
👉which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
…..
12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! 👉for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because👉 he knoweth that he hath but a short time👈

January 6, 2024 at 1:22 pm#945820
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
Isaiah 14:2 They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors. 3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! 5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, 6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. 7 All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing. 8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon gloat over you and say, “Now that you have been laid low, no one comes to cut us down.” 9 The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. 12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?” 18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. 19 But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, 20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people. Let the offspring of the wicked never be mentioned again.
Berean, there is absolutely nothing in this passage that speaks to the existence of some evil spirit being.
The passages is all about the king of Babylon, he was an evil oppressor who was filled with arrogance and pride. He was a man saying he would ascend above the tops of the clouds and make himself like the Most High. He was making himself into a false god. He was a ruler with great power and God brought forth his fall.
 God called this human king “morning star: which was also known as the planet Venus, which in mythology represented a number of FALSE gods, so rather perfect for God to be referring to this king as a false god now isn’t it, as the king saw himself as a god.
Interesting enough, in ancient Canaanite religion Venus or morning star was the god Attar who tried to take over the throne of Ba’al but failed so he then descended to rule the underworld.
But there is also said to be another Canaanite myth about a lesser god named “Helel” (Hebrew word in verse 14:12 translated morning star is Heylel). Helel tried to overthrow the high Canaanite god “El”. The myth said that Helel was determined to ascend higher than all other divinities but ultimately he had to fall to the pit.
Berean, pause for a moment and take these facts in.
The king is declaring he will ascend higher than the stars of God and make himself like God.
During the time of this king, as well as long time prior and afterward, the morning star/planet Venus represented FALSE gods across many religions, Babylon included.
God calls the king a morning star AKA a FALSE god.
Another fact for you, biblically, human kings are called DRAGONS and BEASTS and humans are said to go to war in heaven. 
January 7, 2024 at 1:48 am#945822
Berean
Participant
@Jodi
You
Berean, there is absolutely nothing in this passage that speaks to the>The passages is all about the king of Babylon existence of some evil spirit being.
Me
Why do you set aside the passages which clearly state that Satan , the devil, is the fallen angels who have been deceiving the world from the beginning?
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
👇
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was👉 a murderer from the beginning, 👈and abode 👉not in the truth, because there is👉 no truth in him. 👈When he speakseth a lie, he speaketh of his own👈: for 👉he is a liar, and the 👉father of it.👈
It was Satan who deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden…and no one else.
He used a beautiful snake to camouflage himself in order to better lure Eve into his trap….

January 7, 2024 at 5:54 am#945823
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
YOU: Why do you set aside the passages which clearly state that Satan , the devil, is the fallen angels who have been deceiving the world from the beginning?
ME: “clearly state”? Isaiah 14 does not contain the words “Satan” “devil” or “fallen angel”, though the king of Babylon could be called an adversary/saw-tawn for sure and probably a slanderer/diabolos too.
encyclopedia of Britannica
Lucifer, (Latin: Lightbearer) in classical mythology, the morning star (i.e., the planet Venus at dawn);
Behind the Name
Lucifer
In Latin this name originally referred to the morning star, Venus
The Latin word “Lucifer” does not belong in English translation, but if you render the word according to it’s original definition then it should not be a problem to read the biblical passage of Isaiah 14:12 accurately. Most translators did translate appropriately where I have given a number of the translations below.
Shining morning star
O Day Star, son of Dawn
Daystar! Son of Dawn
O star of the morning, son of the dawn
O shining star, son of the morning
O day-star, son of the morning
O shining one, son of the morning
Berean, what is CLEARLY STATED is God is calling the king of Babylon the star of the morning/Planet Venus which there were many false gods attributed to this morning star. The king of Babylon said in his heart that he would ASCEND to the heavens and raise his throne above the stars and God in turn calls him the morning star which was well attributed to false gods. God calling the king of Babylon the morning star, could not be a more perfect metaphor!
Berean, asserting fallen angel into Isaiah 14 as double meaning is extraordinarily weak, it doesn’t add up at all within the text and it takes away from the perfect metaphor God used to describe the king.
4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended!
5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing.
8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon gloat over you and say, “Now that you have been laid low, no one comes to cut us down.”
12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
So when scripture speaks of humans as trees and being cut down we understand that this is metaphor, but when it’s a star falling from heaven it’s a metaphor for the king of Babylon but then partially a metaphor for a fallen angel, as the angel isn’t literally the planet Venus but he supposedly did literally fall from heaven. Really Berean? I am also supposed to believe that this fallen angel had a throne and wanted to ascend it into heaven above the stars and also planned to sit enthroned on the heights of Mount Zaphon, JUST AS the king had also said in his heart? Wow, that’s pretty uncanny.
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?”18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb. 19 But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
“HIS FURY HAS ENDED“, his power, his rule even his life is dead, but yet that’s not true with the fallen angel who is being spoken of also supposedly in this chapter though right? Berean I would really like to see you try and make the text given in Isaiah 14 actually make any sense when applying a dual representation.
Please also enlighten me concerning the following,
We are given that sin equals death and the Spirit is life because of righteousness where our hope is in God’s word that He will be all in all, our hope is to live in God’s abode, to dwell in His heavenly kingdom.
God has faithful heavenly angels and Jesus says we will become like the angels, no longer able to die anymore. We know that we will no longer be able to die because the Spirit of God in us keeps us from sin and where there is no sin there is no death, only life eternal. This tells me that God’s angels are not able to die also because they are without sin, they are faithful followers because they entered God’s heavenly abode.
Please explain Berean, do you believe a fallen angel was in heaven as in God’s abode, but then was cast out?
What does it say if you can enter into God’s heavenly abode but then still be able to fall? It’s a massive insult to God and His Spirit is what it is. What then about Christ, could he fall, could we enter and fall as well? Talk about a major blow to the gospel.

January 7, 2024 at 6:04 am#945824
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
Thanks for engaging with me on this topic.
I hope you will continue and I will post bringing up an old thread specifically on this topic.
January 7, 2024 at 6:09 am#945825
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
Actually I am going to post on the fairly recent thread I started about the Enmity as this is exactly what I hoped to get into so we could identify the devil to which Christ destroyed through his death.
January 7, 2024 at 7:17 am#945826
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@jodi
Hi Jodi,
You: The adversary in the book of Job was not a FALSE accuser…
Me: He was. Job stayed faithful to God and didn’t curse Him, as Satan said he would.
Anyway, I had to respond to your false statement.
God bless
January 7, 2024 at 9:17 am#945827
Berean
Participant
@ Jodi
Please explain Berean, do you believe a fallen angel was in heaven as in God’s abode, but then was cast out?
Me
👇
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more👉 in heaven.👈
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12)

January 7, 2024 at 9:43 am#945828
Berean
Participant
@ Jodi
What does it say if you can enter into God’s heavenly abode but then still be able to fall?
Me
Origin of Evil and the Fall of Lucifer
“God is love.” His nature, His law, His government, His dealings with man, and every one of His manifestations are expressions of His love. 1 John 4:16. And God’s love is associated with other qualities of His character. See chapter I. Then how could God permit evil to originate?

All intelligent beings were created free to choose between obedience or disobedience to the great principles of truth, righteousness, and love. Lucifer (meaning “light-bearer”), one of the most exalted cherubim, misused his freedom of choice. Deuteronomy 30:19; Galatians 6:7, 8. This was the beginning of the great rebellion in heaven. Lucifer became Satan (Hebrew Shatan, meaning “adversary”). He set aside the law of God through self-exaltation, deception, lying, and murder. Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17; Isaiah 14:12-14; Revelation 12:7, 8; John 8:44 (cf 1 John 3:15).

When Satan and his angels were expelled from heaven, they found their abode on this earth, where they continued the work of rebellion as our first parents yielded to him. Revelation 12: 9, 12, 13; Job 1:6, 7; 1 Peter 5:8; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6 (cf Matthew 8:29); Genesis 3:1-15 (cf Romans 5:12).

Satan falsely claims that this earth, with everything that is in it, belongs to him. He became the “god” and “prince of this world,” not by right, but by usurpation. Luke 4:5, 6; 2 Corinthians 4:4; John 12:31; 1 John 5:19.

The final victory of Christ over Satan was obtained in the garden of Gethsemane and on the cross. John 14:30; 16:11; Hebrews 2:14, 15. As a result Christ’s victory, we can also overcome. 1 Corinthians 15:57; James 4:7, 8; Revelation 12:11.

During the millennium (1000 years), Satan will be bound by a chain of circumstances on this earth, and at the end of the millennium he and his followers will be loosened for a short time, and then they will finally be destroyed, and neither root nor branch will be left. Revelation 20:1-3, 7-10; Malachi 4:1, 3; Isaiah 14:15-20; Ezekiel 28:16,18, 19.

Where and How Did Sin Originate?
“The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of ‘the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal.’ Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God’s throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, ‘that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ John 3:16.”—The Desire of Ages, p. 22.

“Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and was highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Lucifer, ‘son of the morning,’ was first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled. He stood in the presence of the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glory enshrouding the eternal God rested upon him.”—Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 35.

Satan puts the following questions into the minds of infidels: If God knew that our first parents would fall into temptation, why did He create them? Or, why didn’t He, instead, create a different man and a different woman, who would not fall when tempted? But he does not ask the same questions about himself, since he is the originator of sin, and the one who tempted Adam and Eve to transgress God’s command. The origin of sin is a mystery to us. Deuteronomy 29:29.

“There are thousands today echoing the same rebellious complaint against God. They do not see that to deprive man of the freedom of choice would be to rob him of his prerogative as an intelligent being, and make him a mere automaton. It is not God’s purpose to coerce the will. Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience; but he is never brought into such a position that yielding to evil becomes a matter of necessity. No temptation or trial is permitted to come to him which he is unable to resist. God made such ample provision that man need never have been defeated in the conflict with Satan.”—Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 331-332.

“The law of love being the foundation of the government of God, the happiness of all intelligent beings depends upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness. God desires from all His creatures the service of love—service that springs from an appreciation of His character. He takes no pleasure in a forced obedience; and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service.”—Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 34.

“But there was one [Lucifer] that chose to pervert this freedom. Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and who stood highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven.”—The Great Controversy, p. 493.

“When the conflict was renewed upon the earth, Satan again won a seeming advantage. By transgression, man became his captive, and man’s kingdom also was betrayed into the hands of the archrebel. Now the way seemed open for Satan to establish an independent kingdom, and to defy the authority of God and His Son.” —Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 331.

“At the time when sin had become a science, when the hostility of man was most violent against heaven, when rebellion struck its roots deep into the human heart, when vice was consecrated as a part of religion, when Satan exulted in the idea that he had led men to such a state of evil that God would destroy the world, Jesus was sent into the world, not to condemn it, but, amazing grace! to save the world. The unfallen worlds watched with intense interest to see Jehovah arise and sweep away the inhabitants of the earth, and Satan boasted that if God did do this, he would complete his plans and secure for himself the allegiance of unfallen worlds. He had arguments ready by which to cast blame upon God, and to spread his rebellion to the world’s above; but at this crisis, instead of destroying the world, God sent his Son to save it.”—Signs of the Times, February 5, 1894.

“Why was it that Satan’s existence was not cut short at the outset of his rebellion? It was that the universe might be convinced of God’s justice in His dealing with evil; that sin might receive eternal condemnation.”—Education, p. 308.
https://sdarm.org/about-us/beliefs/the-origin-of-evil

January 7, 2024 at 1:04 pm#945829
Jodi
Participant
Hi Danny,
When was the last time you read through the book of Job?
Job 42: 1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Why did Job ABHOR himself and what did he REPENT of?
In defending himself to his three friends Job’s heart was uncovered to be prideful and he even questioned the wisdom and justice of God. He complained to God and even said things that were ignorant of God and not true of God, for instance he declared that God must be his enemy.
So was the adversary correct after all?
Job 2: 3 And the LORD said unto the adversary, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. 4 And the adversary answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6 And the LORD said unto the adversary, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. 7 So went the adversary forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
The word curse is Barak,
to bless, kneel(Qal)to kneel
to bless
(Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
(Piel) to bless
(Pual) to be blessed, be adored
(Hiphil) to cause to kneel
(Hithpael) to bless oneself
(TWOT) to praise, salute, curse
interesting that this word renders opposite meanings, but all the same, to curse here, keeping it opposite of praise or adore is exactly what Job did, he came to a point where he was not praising God but complaining and questioning the very wisdom and justice of God.
Job did directly curse his day and went on to wish that he had died the day he was born and he even said let not God regard it. This is quite the insult to God, for God indeed gives us life and for a purpose.
3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day. 2 And Job spake, and said, 3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived. 4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. 5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it… 11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
further,
10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me! 19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, 21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death; 22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.
Job questions why God even brought him into existence and says once again that he should have died at birth. Then he goes so far as to tell God to leave him alone.
As given in chapter 42, Job ended up abhorring himself and repenting to God. The adversary was right about the heart of Job.
The adversary is in the presence of the LORD, but wait, I thought Satan was cast out from the LORD’s presence, can you explain Danny?
The adversary obeys the LORD, but I thought Satan was a rebel who goes against the LORD, can you explain?
Why does the adversary ask the LORD to put forth His hand and then the LORD gives permission with instructions for the adversary to then carry out the cursing?
AND why does Job and his friends who all speak in the book, all attribute Job’s suffering to be coming FROM God? Do God’s faithful angels carryout out what is considered the hand of God, which would include cursing, YES. Are God’s faithful angels thus at times adversaries unto man, YES.
I find this passage interesting,
4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? 18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Those who are self-righteous would charge God’s angels with folly. A self-righteous man, when being cursed by God, would charge God’s angel carrying out the curse, with folly.
There is not any discussion AT ALL about God “allowing” a wicked spirit being to curse Job. We actually hear nothing about the adversary after the cursing in chapter 2 is carried out. We then have 40 more chapters where much of it is about God and His wisdom and His justice all the while as God is being attributed as the hand that Has cursed Job. You don’t find that odd Danny?
January 7, 2024 at 3:36 pm#945830
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
Thanks for giving your more in depth belief, but I am sure you are not surprised to hear that I find major fault with it for a number of scriptural reasons.
YOU: All intelligent beings were created free to choose between obedience or disobedience to the great principles of truth, righteousness, and love. Lucifer (meaning “light-bearer”), one of the most exalted cherubim, misused his freedom of choice. Deuteronomy 30:19; Galatians 6:7, 8. This was the beginning of the great rebellion in heaven. Lucifer became Satan (Hebrew Shatan, meaning “adversary”). He set aside the law of God through self-exaltation, deception, lying, and murder. Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17; Isaiah 14:12-14; Revelation 12:7, 8; John 8:44 (cf 1 John 3:15).
ME: Nothing about verse 19 or it’s surrounding text speaks of a fallen angel, so you are off to a really bad start in your attempt to provide scriptural proof to your position.
Deuteronomy 30: 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
I would like to take this opportunity to expand on the verses above by including some other scriptures that declare 3 absolutely clear biblical truths that directly apply to this topic and speak against you.
devils- shed- demons
Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Psalms 106:35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works. 36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. 37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, 38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Jeremiah 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. 6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might. 7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee. 8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
14:14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
Here are two clear truths, 1. devils/demons/gods all were fake idols, 2. works of man’s own invention. 1. They were not in anyway real, they could not do any good nor any evil.
It’s been awhile but I studied all about the ancient religions and their gods and demons, Canaan, Sumerian, Egyptian, Greek and Roman. The people believed their gods and demons could bring both blessing and/or cursing.
This brings us to the 3rd clear truth, it’s not only that these gods and demons were FAKE, the problem was that people were denoting to these gods and demons as to having powers that God says He alone has.
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (ra/bad): I the LORD do all these things.
Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man’s mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deuteronomy 26:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field… 20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. 21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. 22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. 24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
To attribute any supernatural power, bringing forth blessing or a CURSING, to be coming from any other being but God/delivered by His faithful angels having the powers of His Spirit, is to create fake demons, fake gods.
God makes this very clear, no one but Him brings blessing and CURSING, everything else is fake cannot do any good, nor any evil, just a work of man’s own foolish imagination and such is exactly what fallen angels are.
I see the second scripture you gave Berean actually leads right into the fourth clear biblical truth I want to present in my next post.

January 7, 2024 at 11:51 pm#945838
Proclaimer
Participant
@Proclaimer: I do not. I have tried for almost 30 years to find clear evidence of “three persons in the Godhead” from Scripture, and it simply isn’t there. Not a single verse proclaims this “essential truth”. It is a framework extrapolated from Scripture, constructed over 300+years of debate and speculation on the nature of Christ, and was ultimately settled by two Roman emperors deciding that the debate needed to end. It is an extra-Biblical doctrine that I believe Paul would conclude is a “hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than Christ”. This doesn’t mean that it is therefore worthless, by definition, but it certainly calls into question how something that isn’t stated plainly in Scripture can possibly be viewed as the ultimate arbiter of Christian orthodoxy.

@srs0467aol-com
Totally agree with you here.
Have you read this?
The Trinity Doctrine
January 8, 2024 at 6:37 am#945839
T3
Participant
@Proclaimer: I have not seen this information, so I appreciate the heads-up. When I get some free time, I’ll look over the info again.
Alternatively, I’ve published my own musings / conclusions about the Trinity, which take the additional step of trying to formulate a Biblical picture of Father, Son, and Spirit that stands in contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity. I call it the “Filium”. 🙂 While you can order the book if you want, the entire book is available on-line here:
Testing the Trinity
January 8, 2024 at 7:32 am#945840
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@jodi
Hi Jodi,
Yes, Job did complain and repented but he never cursed God.
Job 2:9-10
Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”
But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
January 8, 2024 at 9:23 am#945841
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
I hope you and Danny as well can continue the debate about fallen angels in the enmity thread as it would be more appropriate to continue over there.
I will give in this post however the following,
Satan = adversary – not fallen angel (God’s faithful messengers and humans are called adversaries in scripture)
Devil= slanderer/deceiver – not fallen angel (humans are called slanders and even called serpents for being slanders and deceivers)
Lucifer = shinning one/star – not fallen angel (Isaiah 14:12 shining one/star -son/first of the morning/AKA planet Venus and a human is called a shinning star of the morning)
Serpent = serpent – not fallen angel (humans are called serpents throughout the bible for being fearful, liars, deceivers and hypocrites ex. Matt 3:7 & 12:24, Romans 3:13, Micah 7:17, Psalms 140:3 )
Dragon = dragon, serpent sea monster- not fallen angel (human kings are called dragons Jer 51:34 and Ezek 29:3)
Beasts = beast, animal – not fallen angels (humans are called beasts for being ignorant, for following their instincts/carnal mind ex. Psalms 73:21, 2 Peter 2:12 and also represented as powerful rulers ex. Daniel 7:17, Rev 17:12)
Scripture tells us that God ALONE is the source of supernatural powers that bring forth darkness, evil/bad, cursing, evil spirits and gives influence to the course of the world, raising up kings and making them fall, determining outcomes to wars, hardening hearts of men, bringing earthquakes, floods, famine, diseases and vexations of the spirit.
Scripture tells us that any believed being with supernatural power to bless or curse, to bring forth any good or any evil upon the earth is FAKE, nothing but a false god invented by the imagination of fools.
Scripture tells us that men sin and do evil from their own imaginations out of their own hearts, from walking after the flesh following their own carnal minds and that to be carnally minded is death, which then tells us exactly who/what holds the power over death. Animals/beasts/serpents also follow their carnal minds, their instincts, which is exactly why man is likened to all sorts of creatures throughout scripture.
So what powers do your fallen angels possess, what is it that they can actually do, to which doesn’t go against the clear given word of God?
Scripture tells us that time and time again that God’s people did not listen to God (HE ALONE DOETH ALL THESE THINGS), instead they went after fake gods/fake demons, being influenced by false religions wherein they created their very own doctrines of demons and evil spirit beings. Jews and “Christians” alike are guilty of this and the interpretations and dual meanings they apply to a handful of scripture, that honestly don’t even make sense within the text, in attempt to support their doctrines, go 100% against other scriptures that declare clear given truths.
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