John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,181 through 25,200 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #945657
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

    I am the root and the offspring of David,

    and the bright and morning star.

    You: Rhizaroot– a root
    that which like a root springs FROM A ROOT, a sprout, shoot

    The above Jodi is YOUR CONFUSION!

    PRODUCE THE MEANING OF THE ABOVE WITHIN A DICTIONARY IF WHAT YOU SAID ABOVE IS TRUE!

    SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR

    “A ROOT”

    IN YOUR OTHER POST YOU SAID:

    You:  10 And in that day there shall be

    a root of Jesse,

    NOW PRODUCE  ALSO THE SCRIPTURE THAT USES ON ITS OWN THE TERM

    AN OFFSPRING OF DAVID

    IN THE MEANTIME READ AGAIN PLEASE:

    I am the ROOT and the OFFSPRING of David,

    Now read again what I said and asked you in my post:

    Me: Jodi A ROOT OF JESSE!

    JUST READ PLEASE:

    A ROOT OF A PALM TREE!

    ANSWER Jodi, and in this case also MR. GENE-IOUS,

    WHO CAME FIRST AND THE BEGINNING?

    THE ROOT OR THE TREE PLEASE?

    IS THE ROOT THE ORIGIN OF THE PALM TREE PLEASE!

    YES OR NO PLEASE?

     

    Please and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945658
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…….Another excellent post on, Jesus being “the root and offspring of David” , Hope everyone reads it and thinks about, what you have written.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………gene

    #945659
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……..Jesse was the,  “SEED” that came first, then comes the roots,  and from the roots, spring forth another branch from that same tree and it produced “offsprings” or seeds all from the one and same tree,  and in the case of Jesus and king David that root stock was Jesse.  Just as scripture shows us all, who have the ability to understand it, that is. Why are you constantly trying to make a “mystery out of everything”? There is no “mystery” here, it is just as it is written, Jesus was the “offspring” king David, and both David and Jesus were from the “roots” of Jesse. Simple as that.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene

    #945660
    Jodi
    Participant

    As always, thank you Gene! I always appreciate your encouraging words. You have given some excellent posts as well!

    #945661
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    In regards to Isaiah 7:14, you had said to keep reading thereafter and to also start from the beginning of the chapter.

    I ask that you keep reading as well, keep reading all the way to chapter 12, it’s all together!

    Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. 5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. 8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. 9 And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart, 10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars. 11 Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together; 12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. 13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. 14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. 15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

    I believe that the son to be born in Isaiah 7:14 is this same son spoken of in 9:6, which is our Messiah spoken further of Isaiah in 11. Also spoken of in these chapters is Assyria, Syria, Rezin, etc.

    Immanuel-God with us

    Who has the ultimate fulfillment of “God with us” if not the promised Messiah? 

    In Luke 1 we read of Mary and Zacharia speaking to “God with us” in the context of the Messiah that is to be born. 

    46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
    47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
    48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
    49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
    50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
    51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
    52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
    53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
    54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
    55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

    67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    Luke 1 also says,

    36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

    Ishshah, woman, wife, female

    wife 425 and woman 324

    B@thuwlah, virgin

    virgin 38, maid 7, maiden 5

    Almah, virgin, young woman

    virgin 4, maid 2, damsels 1

    NT

    Parthenos, virgin, marriageable maiden,

    Virgin 14

    Mary was unmarried, she was a virgin and she conceived by the direct hand of God, by the power of His Holy Spirit.

    What better SIGN could there be then for the promised Messiah to be conceived by the direct hand of God?

    The SIGN is in fact the conception and it isn’t a miracle because the female is barren, it’s because she is an unwed maiden, a virgin, for with God anything is possible. 

    #945662
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    As I had said my point in one of my posts, to which you called out because I didn’t speak directly to how “Isa 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Zech 8:20-23; Zech 9:9-10; Zech 14:16 are speaking to the coming Kingdom of God spoken of throughout the NT”, was to show you how the OT does indeed speak in the need of believing in the Messiah in order to receive salvation. Just because the scriptures you gave don’t speak to that specifically does not mean that it is not spoken elsewhere in the OT as in fact it does. I look forward to your response to this specifically. 

    I have followed up and did speak to the above verses as speaking to the coming kingdom of God to which both the OT and NT speak of.  Can you agree that those passages you gave are speaking to God’s coming kingdom?

    YOU: Where in the NT does it state in the last days “The mountain of the house of the Lord Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it.”

    ME: Such is directly spoken of in the chapter 22 of Revelation,

    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel…

    …22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    #945663
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    You: Guess the question would be, should you be worshiping both?

    Me: Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    #945664
    carmel
    Participant

    H Gene,

    You: Carmel……..Jesse was the,  “SEED”

    Me: The above is only in your own personal corrupted bible!

    WHERE IN THE BIBLE WE CAN READ SUCH A TERM?

    In the meantime read what the bible says:

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

    I am the ROOT and the OFFSPRING of David,

    and the bright morning star

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945665
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You: Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Me: Jesus, the son of God, says to worship God alone and the man John writes to give “Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power,” to both; again, I read nothing about worship. Dang christianity is confusing! Maybe opening the left side of the bible might clarify things for you. Only a suggestion.

    #945666
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    Revelation 22:16 “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the ROOT and the OFFSPRING of David, and the bright morning star.”

    How can this be when in Hebraic tradition the tribal lineage comes from the father and Jesus had no earthly father; Jesus was conceived of the spirit and not of the “seed/zera/descendant” of David or did Matthew and Luke lie?

    #945667
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    We have two very distinct perspectives on what the “law” is; you believe mankind is under this dictatorship type thumb of God and you better do what he says, or else (fear driven enforcement). I see the Torah (books of the Law) not a series of do’s and don’ts, but as a set of instructions explaining how to live in relation to God and the people around you and not about “making the heart right”.

    I will go even further and say these “laws” have been around since creation and are nothing new to the time of Moses. In fact, I would even say these “laws” are equal in their “authority” and “permanency” as the natural laws (gravity, laws of thermodynamics, conservation of energy, etc) that govern this planet and universe.

    If you would like to talk about “enforcement by fear”, let’s talk about the tactics of christianity:
    “If you where to die tonight, would you spend eternity in Heaven or Hell?”
    “If you don’t accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, you will spend eternity in Hell.”
    “Jesus is the bridge between mankind and God; without Jesus filling this gap, you are destined to Hell.”
    “Would you rather spend eternity in Heaven with Jesus or be tormented in Hell and separated from God?”
    This isn’t fear driven?!?

    #945668
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: How can this be when in Hebraic tradition the tribal lineage comes from the father and Jesus had no earthly father;

    Me: DT, In the early stages of your participation in this thread, I told you that,

    I doubt whether you were a Christian, this time I tell you that I doubt whether

    YOU BELIEVE IN GOD AT ALL.

    SPIRIT!

    YOU ARE DEFINITELY ONLY A CARNAL-MINDED PERSON IN EVERY SENSE, WITH EVERY DUE RESPECT!

    DON’T YOU KNOW THAT FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO  GOD,  HIS  SPIRITUAL TASKS, AND GENERAL WORK, IT IS ONLY HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL OF HIS WORK, EVEN CONCERNING YOU AS A HUMAN BEING AND ALL THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF THIS PLANET, SATANIC FROM ADAM’S SIN,

    Jeremiah 32: 27Behold, I am the LORD,

    the God of all flesh:

    is there anything TOO HARD for me?

    ESPECIALLY

    THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF HIS SON, NOT OF THIS WORLD!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS OF THE HOLY GHOST!

    You: Jesus was conceived of the spirit and not of the

    “seed/zera/descendant” of David 

    THERE YOU ARE, A CLEAR CONFIRMATION OF YOUR SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, THE FACT THAT YOU CONSIDER THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD IS ONLY PHYSICAL, AND YOU SIMPLY IGNORE

    GOD’S SPIRITUAL TASK AND HIS WORK HIDDEN AND BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, PRECISELY IN THE 

    SEED,/ZERA/

    You: or did Matthew and Luke lie?

    Read what Matthew made clear:

    Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

     

    36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945675
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……ALL LAW, works through (forced compliance).  Even the laws we have do, for instance, our speed “LAWS”, and  the highway Patrol will given you a citation for violating them, and that causes fear  in the hearts of drivers, because the courts will extract a penalty from you, if you violate them.  So the fear of the consequences, generates fear in the minds of drivers and thereby regulates drivers, that would violate them.
    Laws are made to regulate human behaviors,  that’s common sense, everyone should know that.   God turned his loving Commandments into Laws , which require obedience ot you would suffer the consequences for violating them, as the example I showed you about the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day.  But the commandments of God are suggestions on how to live,  but because it was not in the heart of the ISRAELITES to obey God’s commandments because of their evil hearts, God turned his loving commandments in to “LAWS’,  just as Ex 20:20 , clearly shows.  The Apostle Paul was absolutely right on what he said, ……> by the way “law works”.  NO FLESH CAN BE JUSTIFIED BEFORE  GOD.  

    Sad that you seem unable to see that.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

    #945676
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    They are going to tell you he is of the lineage of David through Mary and that it’s acceptable for him to have a right to the throne being adopted by Joseph most likely, as that is what I have heard before from folks on here.

    YOU: Jesus was conceived of the spirit and not of the “seed/zera/descendant” of David or did Matthew and Luke lie?”

    ME: You had told me it was a moot point that Matthew actually directly teaches us that Jesus is a biological son of Joseph.

    I hope that you are interested in debating what the NT actually teaches. Matthew and Luke do not lie, it is a doctrine you are perpetuating as true to what the NT teaches that is a lie.

    Generation – Genesis

    source, origin
    a book of one’s lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
    2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas…15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
    16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Generation – Genea

    fathered, birth, nativity
    that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

    17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

    Matthew gives us the book of Jesus’s genealogy to prove how he is genetically a son of Abraham and David where he goes from Abraham to Joseph. 

    How else would a virgin be able to become pregnant if not by the power of the Highest by His Spirit?

    Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Jesus is the promised son of David to whom God said he would become a Father to. First there is a son of David and then God becomes a Father unto this son of David according to the OT. The child “shall be called the Son of the Highest”. 

    In Matthew,

    3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    he is not called the “Son of God” until after the Spirit came to dwell in him (Matthew 4:3)

    In Mark,

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God..10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    In Luke,

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    he is not called the “Son of God” until after the Spirit came to dwell in him (Luke 4:3). 

    In John, 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

     

    #945678
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

    There you have the word “worship”.

     

     

    #945679
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    he is not called the “Son of God” until after the Spirit came to dwell in him (Luke 4:3). 

    Me

    What you are saying here IS NOT RIGHT.

     

    And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?

    When Jesus said this, he was 12 years old I think?

    So wasn’t he the Son of God ALREADY….?

    #945680
    sonofGod
    Participant

    Word in the Greek is logos meaning message.  Not focussing on the actual media of message but on the thought or focus on the content of the message.

    For instance, both words and actions convey information.  Both communicate.

    Logos is therefore not limited to person or thing, but is both person and words.

    God is the source of all light and knowledge, wisdom, understanding etc.  Thus God is primarily the logos.  However, His son, Jesus Christ both lived and spoke the truth God wanted him to communicate.

    How do we know this? Because God’s written logos, the scriptures tell us this.

    Thus, God and His son and the written word is the logos.

    And since we are to hold forth the words of life, the degree and accuracy to which we share God’s word we are in part, as followers and immitators of God, His son and the written word, we share in being, in our limited way, a logos, as well.

    #945684
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    My position stands.

    John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Luke 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions…49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?

    John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    The Scribes and Pharisees, the teachers in the temple considered God as their Father. Jesus, a 12 year old boy spending time with teachers in the temple hearing them and asking them questions, tells his parents he is about his Father’s business. What the 12 year old Jesus spoke of is nothing short of what the teachers themselves would also say. 

    OT in 1 Chronicles 17 teaches that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God becomes a Father to him and gives him an eternal throne. A clear truth, the word of God, that you just continue to flat out deny and not apply.

    Luke 1 speaks to this with Jesus being identified as the promised son of David who would receive an eternal throne and it speaks to the unborn child as he who WOULD BE called the Son of the Highest. We see indeed in all 4 Gospels that first we have a son of David and then God calls him His Son at the moment the Spirit comes to abode in him. Then after that, in all the gospels, we read of the first time Jesus is called “the Son of God”. This aligns exactly with the image of the Son that Paul gives us in Romans 8 and also aligns with 1 John 3 and as well how on the day he was resurrected it says that he received the promised Spirit and was begotten by God (Acts 2 and 13). Just complete blindness on your part to think that God’s Spirit coming to dwell all in, to the cause of all goodness, righteousness and truth, where thus you have eternal life, is not that which applies to Jesus as God’s Son, Jesus as begotten of God’s Spirit.

    Reconciliation means NO CONTRRADICTIONS Berean, and you continue to prove that you can’t provide it.

     

    #945685
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny and DT,

    Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

    NT worship-Proskuneo

    to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

    among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

    in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

    Used 60 times in the NT

    OT worship -Shachah

    1. to bow down
      (Qal) to bow down
      (Hiphil) to depress (fig)
      (Hithpael)
      to bow down, prostrate oneself 1c
      before superior in homage 1c
      before God in worship 1c
      before false gods 1c
      before angel

    Used 172 times in the OT

    According to the OT and the NT there is but one God the Father and then there is His Son chosen from among brethren to fulfill all of God’s will, to bring forth the end that our Father had declared from the beginning. The Father is higher, without the Father Jesus can do nothing of himself. Only the Father is worshipped/given reverence as the one and only true God. Jesus is worshipped/given reverence for the position to which our Father has given him. As Jesus is doing the works to which the Father directs him to do, then we dishonor the Father if we do not believe that the Sons works are actually His works.  If we deny that God’s Spirit is aboding in Jesus doing the works, we deny the Father. Honor the Son as we honor the Father is of course in the context that the Son is only doing the will of the Father.

    This is how I see it from the scriptures and when one looks at the meaning behind the word worship.

    #945686
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: I said “worship” not “honor”; these are two distinct words, one show reverent devotion and the other is high respect. This verse you quote is a little troubling for me since is says to merely “honor” God; no, what God deserves is our complete devotion

    In Matt 4:10 and Luke 4:8 Jesus says, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.” Yet you say, “I worship both God and His Son Jesus Christ.” Guess the question would be,

    should you be worshiping both?

    YOU CAN DO SO, THANKS TO JESUS AND HIS TANGIBLE TASKS ON EARTH FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHER BUT

    Me: THERE’S NO NEED TO!

    For the simple reason, that whatever you do to the Son you’ll be doing it to the Father also and vice versa!

    As simple as that!

    No Father no Son!

    No son no Father!

    ONLY THE SON MANIFESTED GOD ALMIGHTY ON EARTH!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS THE TRUTH FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT ON EARTH UNLESS ANYTHING IS MANIFESTED TANGIBLY  COULD NOT BE  TRUE. THUS JESUS DID IT FOR THE LOVE OF THE FATHER!

    THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO DO THAT AT ALL!

    AND HE WILL NEVER BE UNLESS IN THE EMBODIMENT OF JESUS CHRIST,

    WHEN GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL! AGAIN:

    AS JESUS CHRIST!

    THE MIGHTY GOD AND THE FATHER OF THE NEW WORLD TO COME!

    Isaiah 9:6

     

    Read THE TRUTH please:

    John: 30 I and the Father are one.

    John14:7 If you had known me,

    you would without doubt have known my Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?

    John17:10 And all my things are thine,

    and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    Matthew 6:9

    Thus therefore shall you pray:

    Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

    10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    11Give us this day our supersubstantial bread.

    12And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.

    13And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

     

    In the above Jesus simply confirmed that 

    AS MUCH AS GOD THE FATHER IS OUR FATHER SPIRITUALLY! 

    IN THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN!

    JESUS AS GOD THE SON IS ALSO OUR FATHER PHYSICALLY!

    IN THE KINGDOM OF THE SON IN THE WORLD TO COME!

     

    ALL GOD’S THINGS, WHICH INCLUDE ADORATION EQUIVALENTLY BELONG TO

    THE FATHER AND THE SON! 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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