John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,161 through 25,180 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #945636
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    In other words, there is no scripture to back up what you claim and now you are deflecting. To ask me to provide you a scripture to refute your claim of Able’s “immaculate conception” is backwards. It’s okay for you to make wild comments without support, but everyone else must support what they say…understood. Hope your pedestal isn’t to high, because it’s going to hurt when you get knocked off it and come crashing down.

    Then you say, yelling of course, “ WHAT I WROTE IS PURE TRUTH, AND IT STANDS!” You sound like Paul making statements “as it is written” and then proceeding to twist the OT scriptures or taking multiple passages from the OT and combining them into one, making his own “gospel.”

    It’s no wonder why you refuse to say what “faith” you associate with; before you lie and claim you don’t associate with any, what you believe you got from somewhere.

    #945637
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    Hoping we can put a rest to this very soon and just get on with speaking to scripture.

    I had said, “The issue at hand seems to at least be in part, which has occurred on this forum before, is in interpreting certain NT passages exactly how main stream Christian folks do and in seeing the contradiction with the OT the rejection of Jesus as our Messiah then sets in. If their interpretations were true I would have to reject Jesus as well.”

    Let me try to clarify thoroughly because you did not at all understand what I said.

    As a person who has ALWAYS had the MINDSET of ALIGNING the OT with the NT, as I had even “grown up in a church very much having the OT as foundation“, “I constantly use OT prophecy pointing out how many on this forum ignore what it teaches and by such hold to false doctrines”. In other words, people on this forum DO NOT have the mindset of aligning the NT with that of the Old, and by such I believe they then hold to false doctrines because those doctrines contradict the OT . People falsely interpret NT passages either through ignorance of the OT or through just denying that it should apply (the OT is not their foundation, some people even believe the NT was given to replace the OT with it becoming obsolete). 

    What I have seen happen on this forum before, is a person who was a believer in main stream Christian doctrine starts to look at the OT more closely looking at it in a new light that it should be the foundation and they find that it does not align with what they were taught. Instead of considering that the doctrine/interpretations were wrong they begin to just reject the NT all together and by such deny then Jesus as the Messiah.

    You said, “It’s past time to verify what the NT says and ask if it aligns with the OT.”; if they align, fantastic; if they don’t, there’s a problem”.

    If we do not agree on what the NT says doesn’t that directly affect how we each see if it aligns with the OT or not?

    So far, I am seeing that there are definitely things that we do not agree on.  For example, I believe you misunderstand Paul  and if you understood his teachings as I do perhaps you would also believe as I do that his teachings do indeed align with the OT.  I most certainly believe that Paul was given the Spirit of God to speak the word of God for the purpose to give us greater understanding to that which is true, concerning our God, our Messiah and man.

     

    #945638
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    You gave Isa 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Zech 8:20-23; Zech 9:9-10; Zech 14:16 and then you said, “I didn’t read anything about believing in the Messiah for salvation; but did read the nations were going to “stream” to God’s mountain to worship.”

    ME: The purpose of my last post you missed, it was to give you OT scriptures that do indeed establish that one must believe in the Messiah for salvation which then does make the OT align with the NT. I will in fact apply the sum of all OT scripture to that of the NT.

    The passages you gave all are speaking to the coming kingdom of God to which the NT speaks a great deal about, once again the OT aligns with the NT. 

    YOU: The Messiah is to announce peace to the world and what did Jesus say in Matt 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” How can Jesus be the Messiah?

    ME: There are many passages in the OT that speak to the LORD’s day and that it is a day of vengeance where the wicked are to be destroyed. We are directly told that the Messiah will indeed slay the wicked and then he brings forth peace. 

    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
    34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

    To those that deny him he comes to bring the sword, they are not given peace and to those that believe, he brings forth the promised Spirit and eternal life in God’s kingdom and the rest therein will be glorious.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    #945639
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You: In other words, there is no scripture to back up what you claim

    and now you are deflecting.

    No Not at all!

    To ask me to provide you a scripture to refute your claim of Able’s “immaculate conception” is backwards. 

    I’ll make it clear to you:

    YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR CLAIM THAT

    ABEL WAS BORN THROUGH SEXUAL ACT!

    Now read and reflect please:

    Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife: who conceived and brought forth Cain, saying: I have gotten a man through God.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945640
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    So who are we talking Cain or Abel?? You said Abel, but give scripture for Cain?!?!?!

    Stop wasting my time; if you have a point, make it.

    #945641
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Disertruth,

    You: @Carmel,

    So who are we talking Cain or Abel??

    Me: CAIN AND ABEL I’M AFRAID IF YOU REALLY ARE

    Desiretruth,

    AND WANT THE TRUTH

    You said Abel, but give scripture for Cain?!?!?!

    ME: IT IS THROUGH AND IN CONTRAST WITH CAIN THAT WE ARE ABLE TO BE AWARE OF THE TRUTH!

    Stop wasting my time; if you have a point, make it.

    I ALREADY TOLD YOU I HANDLE MY THINGS THE WAY I AM PLEASED, NOT SUBJECT TO ANYONE, SUBJECT TO MY WRITING, 

    IN A WAY!

    YOU: You said Abel, but give scripture for Cain?!?!?!

    NOW READ WHAT I POSTED TO YOU AGAIN:

    I’ll make it clear to you:

    YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR CLAIM THAT

    ABEL WAS BORN THROUGH SEXUAL ACT!

    OK, THE QUESTION IS ABOUT ABEL, NOT ABOUT CAIN!

    Now read and reflect please:

    Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife: who conceived and brought forth Cain, saying: I have gotten a man through God.

    AS YOU CAN READ WE HAVE ALL THE REQUIRED SCRIPTURE AS PROOF THAT CAIN WAS CONCEIVED THROUGH SEX NO?

    NOW DO THE SAME WITH ABEL’S!

    I AM WAITING TO GO FORWARD FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH!

    DON’T WASTE MY TIME PLEASE!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945642
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You:  10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse,

    Me: Jodi A ROOT OF JESSE!

    JUST READ PLEASE:

    A ROOT OF A PALM TREE!

    ANSWER Jodi, and in this case also MR. GENE-IOUS,

    WHO CAME FIRST AND THE BEGINNING?

    THE ROOT OR THE TREE PLEASE?

    IS THE ROOT THE ORIGIN OF THE PALM TREE PLEASE!

    YES O NO PLEASE?

     

    which shall stand for an ensign of the people;

    to it shall the Gentiles seek:

    and his rest shall be glorious.

    HERE IT COMES Jodi, Gene, NICK,  DT, AND ALL YOU THAT don’t accept THE TRUTH!

    GLORIFIED FOR ETERNITY AS

    OUR LORD GODMAN

    JESUS CHRIST! John13:31,32!

    The name above all names!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ!

     

    #945643
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You are one of those people who believes they are the most intelligent person in the room and then they open their mouth, in this case begin writing, only to prove they are the biggest fool in the room.

    You made the wild claim they were THREE “immaculate conceptions”, conceptions done without the combination of sperm and egg, and I am the one who must prove theay didn’t happen!?!? If you have a point, which you don’t, make it! At this point I will no longer engage in your foolishness; I have already given this to much time.

    #945644
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth???

    You: @Carmel,

    You are one of those people

    who believes they are the most intelligent person in the room

    ME: IT IS YOUR TASK TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THE TRUTH, DO YOU KNOW HOW?

    I TELL YOU:

    BY SIMPLY IGNORING ALL YOUR BLAH, BLAH, AND BLAH, AND HUMBLY PRODUCE THE SCRIPTURE THAT IN YOUR LEVEL OF

    “INTELLIGENCE” 

    PROVES YOU RIGHT!

    TILL THEN MINE STANDS AS TRUTH I’M AFRAID!

    and then they open their mouth,

    in this case begin writing,

    NO FROM MY SIDE ACCORDING TO YOU THE RIGHT WORD IS:

    YELLING!

    only to prove they are the biggest fool in the room.

    SO IS THAT THE REASON THAT YOU DON’T WANT TO ANSWER, I MEAN:

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE WE CAN READ THAT ABEL WAS CONCEIVED THROUGH SEX, SIMPLY IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT YOU ARE  NOT ONE OF THESE BIGGEST FOOLS IN THE ROOM?

    MR. DESIRE TRUTH  HA!  HA!  HA!

    YOU ONLY HAVE TO OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND CONTRADICT ME I’M AFRAID, 

    IF YOU WANT YOUR DESIRE TO BE FULFILLED!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945645
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    18 And all the people were seeing the thunder and the lightning and the sound of the ram’s horn and the mountain smoking, and the people saw, and they trembled, and they stood at a distance. 19 And they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will listen, but let not God speak with us, lest we die.” 20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you so that his fear will be before you so that you do not sin.” 21 And the people stood at a distance, and Moses approached the very thick cloud where God was.

    You ask……>What exactly are you getting out of this passage; what you are saying, I don’t see.

    I get out of it exactly what it says,   The people were made “TO FEAR” by God himself, and notice Moses response “God has come to test you, “SO THAT HIS “FEAR” will be be before you, (WHY), so that you do not sin.

    Question, what was goin to keep them from sinning?  “THE “FEAR” OF GOD”. And God backed up that “Fear”. with harsh consequences,  need proof?,  Here is what happens to them when they broke the Sabbath day “LAW”,   NUM 15;32-36,  …..”And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.  And they hat found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.   And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be doe to him.  And the LORD said unto Moses, “THAT MAN SHALL SURELY BE PUT, “TO DEATH”: and all the congregation shall stone him to death, without the camp.”

    A law “requires”  punishment” for violators , and has enforcement and penalties   For violations,  Just as it is today.  A “LAW” is not a “LAW” unless it is “ENFORCED” . and because of the penalties Law Requires “ON” its violators IF BROKEN it is “FEARED” just as it is today with our LAWS.  

    WHEN a Commandment is not turned into a law , it is no enforceable ,  common sense 101.

    hope that helped clear it up for you.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth…____gene

    #945646
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    We seem to be going in a circle and as I have said in the past, I hate merry-go-rounds. Please explain the difference between a “commandment” and a “law” AND give an example of each from scripture.

    I’ll get to your Ex 20:20 in the christian bible; Ex 20:17 in the Hebrew bible…fascinating stuff.

    #945647
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……you ask , “please explain the difference between a commandment and a Law.  I tried to Show you what a law was , It is a “enforced ” commandment.  While a commandment by it self is simple a word, that is not being enforced on a person. God commanded the people of Israel a lot of times and they did not obey him ,  that is why he turns his (loving Commandment’s) into Laws (enforced words).

    All laws work through enforcements, which creates “FEAR” , because of the penalties taken on the violators,  these “penalties ” invoke “Fear” so people will adhere to them.    The problem with that is “LAWS”  while regulating a persons life through the working of “FEAR”  for violation them , can “NEVER” make a person right in their heart.

    That was what the Apostle Paul’s WHOLE POINT, and he was absolutely right.  “By obedience to LAW, no flesh shall be justified before God”….> why? Because obeying a “LAW”  can t make you right in your heart.  That takes a whole “new creation”. And that is what God does by his “Holy Spirit” In us.  Or haven’t you ever read in the Old Testament where God said , …..>“I will take out of you the “Stony” heart and give you a heart of flesh (soft heart), and I will write my law in you “inter parts”. Who will do that? The “LAW”. ? , NO, God the Father will.  Is the Law Against the words of God “NO”, it’s just powerless to create a person right in their heart. That was Paul’s whole point, and he in my view was also lute right.

    The “Law” Was made for evil people, the ungodly and sinners.  It doesn’t say the commandments were ,  now does it>  hope that helps explain it to you Desire Truth.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………..gene

     

    #945648
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…….What Jodi is posting here is exactly right, please read her posts very carefully and think about what she is saying.

    peace and love to you all and yours………gene

    #945649
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    If you don’t want to accept God’s Son, Jesus Christ, then why are you here? This is a Christian forum.

    Nobody needs your disbelief.

    Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Acts 2:38

    #945650
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Is your worship about Jesus, God, or the belief in christianity? There can only be one…

    #945651
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DesireTruth……..Are  we in agreement, on this, By the “works”  of law, (the way law works)   no flesh can be MADE RIGHT IN THEIR HEART?   Do we at least agree on that?

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

     

    #945652
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny…….Desire Truth is right on his last post to you brother,  who is your “first love” ,  Remember what Jesus told the church at Ephesus, in revelations. They lost their “first love” for God the Father, and unless they repented, they would lose their standing.

    peace and love to you and yours…….gene

     

    #945653
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel and All,

    Trees have roots as in plural.

    Tree Roots

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    Rhizaroot– a root
    that which like a root springs FROM A ROOT, a sprout, shoot

    Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Romans 816 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    1. Jesus is the offspring of David.
    2. Before David even existed one of his offspring was declared by God to bring forth salvation.
    3. Also since the world began, one of David’s offspring was promised to be made into a Son of God, receive the promised Spirit and be settled into God’s house forever and he would be a firstborn of many brethren.

    Romans 8:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

    Jesus is the offspring of David. Is he in Revelation 22 called the root of David because he is a root springing forth from a root?

    Or

    Is he called the root of David because without him David would have never been born in the first place and because without him David would not himself receive the promised Holy Spirit unto righteousness and eternal life?

    Is not the offspring of David also a root of the promised Holy Spirit to which because of that root more roots spring forth of the promised Holy Spirit?

    Is not the offspring of David, Jesus Christ, also a judge and rewarder from the first to the last, wherein David himself is among them who is to be rewarded?

    Jesus according to scripture is the root of David, he is a root that sprung forth from a root, as he is the offspring of David. But also according to scripture, David is to be a root springing forth from a root, Jesus Christ, or we could also say David is a branch from the vine, Jesus Christ

    John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    David believed in the word of God concerning his offspring, that his own salvation and resurrection unto eternal life would come through him. David was a branch to the vine before the vine even existed. David was a believer in Jesus Christ. 

     

    #945655
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    You: Is your worship about Jesus, God, or the belief in christianity? There can only be one…

    Me: I worship both God and His Son Jesus Christ.

    John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    Amen and Amen.

    #945656
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    I said “worship” not “honor”; these are two distinct words, one show reverent devotion and the other is high respect. This verse you quote is a little troubling for me since is says to merely “honor” God; no, what God deserves is our complete devotion

    In Matt 4:10 and Luke 4:8 Jesus says, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.” Yet you say, “I worship both God and His Son Jesus Christ.” Guess the question would be, should you be worshiping both?

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