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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • November 4, 2023 at 6:13 am#945456
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    You ignored my post entirely and didn’t speak to even 1 verse that I provided. Why is that Carmel?

    I spoke to John 17:10 but will gladly do it again and once again within the surrounding scriptures.

    6 I have manifested THY NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 

    What did YHVH give to the Son of Man Jesus that is of YHVH Himself?

    Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of YHVH will rest on him, the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the YHVH.

    What happened after Jesus was GIVEN YHVH’s Spirit?

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God GIVETH not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath GIVEN all things into his hand.

    At the moment Jesus received the Spirit, YHVH declared this man to be His Son, to which YHVH had promised unto David that He would make one of David’s sons into His own Son. Carmel, do you believe YHVH kept His promise? Did He indeed take a Son of Man, a son of David and make him into His own Son? Do you believe in the IMAGE of the Son that Paul gives us in Romans 8, one who is Led by the Spirit of YHVH is a Son of YHVH, one where the Spirit bears witness to their spirit that they are a child of YHVH?

    In light of the scriptures provided above now read again,

    8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 

    I came out from thee and thou didst send me, is directly speaking to the Spirit coming to abode in Jesus and then Jesus being sent, where he gives the words of YHVH through having received the Spirit not by measure. YHVH GAVE all things into his hands because YHVH had GIVEN him His Spirit not by measure.  The people believed on him, that he had been born of YHVH’s Spirit and was speaking YHVH’s word through that Spirit.

    Let’s keep reading John 17,

    9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are…15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    What is Jesus talking about? I gave this to you earlier but this time I will provide the entire chapter.

    1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

    The BODY OF CHRIST represents the Spirit of God without measure. Jesus was ANOINTED OF the Spirit without measure. There is ONE Spirit and ONE GOD who WORKETH ALL IN ALL.

    Jesus received the Spirit ALL IN and was sent out into the world not being of the world but being sent directly down from heaven/ directly from God. Men received gifts of the Spirit, each a measure, where they were sent out into the world not being of the world but being directly sent from God also. They were sent out each with their own gift, teachers of God’s word, prophets, healers and miracle workers, etc where together they equated the body of Christ, he who had received all the gifts of the Spirit.

    Jesus was sent upon receiving the Spirit where God through His calling, men believed on Jesus and the words of God that he preached. These are those that God gave to Jesus. They believed on Jesus and at Pentecost they were rewarded with the Spirit to continue the work that God had given Jesus to do, which was to bring forth more believers in God and His Son. Why we read Jesus say prior to Pentecost, “all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them”…”Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are“.

    Carmel, if you cannot see that “ONE as we are” represents God’s Spirit in Jesus, you are truly blind.

    You gave Phil 2:10

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Who was exalted?

    Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear…36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    A Son of Man was exalted to God’s right hand. This fulfills God’s promise unto David concerning one of his sons. God would become a Father to one of David’s sons and God would settle him into His House and His Kingdom forever where he would make him an eternal king overall the earth.

    The name Jesus means YHVH is salvation, which YHVH had anointed Jesus with the Spirit, calling him to righteousness where YHVH would hold his hand and keep him to fulfill His covenant, being a savior to Israel and all other nations of people. 

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    You gave, John 5:22-23

    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    This brings us directly back to Isaiah 11 I gave earlier in this post, but let’s keep going in the chapter.

    Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of YHVH will rest on him, the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the YHVH. 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Ephesians 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    Carmel, they honor the Son even as they honor the Father BECAUSE THE FATHER’S SPIRIT IS IN THE SON DOING THE WORKS.  

    Carmel, your doctrine does nothing but undermine YHVH’s Spirit, it’s blasphemous.

     

    November 4, 2023 at 6:53 am#945457
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    Carmel, they honor the Son even as they honor the Father BECAUSE THE FATHER’S SPIRIT IS IN THE SON DOING THE WORKS.

    Me

    This is only partly true.

    If Christ were not GOD, HE COULD NOT BE HONORED AS THE FATHER IS HONORED.

    A SIMPLE MAN FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE, HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE HONORED AS GOD THE FATHER IS HONORED.

    ONLY CHRIST COULD BE IT

    BECAUSE

    CHRIST WAS GOD AND MAN.
    Through the prayer of faith, in communion with his Divine Father, his humanity was enlightened, guided, supported, powerfully strengthened,…. CONSTANTLY by the Holy Spirit of GOD.

    AS FOR HIS DIVINE PREROGATIVES, HE HAD PUT THEM AWAY, HE USED THEM NOT FOR HIS PERSONAL USE, BUT FOR THE GOOD OF OTHERS.

    🙏

     

     

    November 4, 2023 at 2:14 pm#945458
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    ME: ANSWER PLEASE:

    ISN’T “YHVH” THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    DIDN’T THE FATHER GIVE JESUS THE NAME “YHVH” WHICH IS ABOVE ALL NAMES?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    John 17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    EVEN THE NAME “YHVH” WHICH IS ABOVE ALL NAMES?

    JESUS IS THE ONLY

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    FOR THE PLEASURE OF THE FATHER!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    November 5, 2023 at 3:55 am#945459
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……The father is not the Son, common sense should tell anyone that..   Jesus said clearly….“this is eternal life, that they might know you (God the father) the “ONLY” TRUE GOD,  and Jesus Christ,  who YOU (God the Father) have sent”.

    “ONLY”. means, no other, so if Jesus says the Father is the “only” true God, then obviously there are no other true God’s.  

    So you trying to make Jesus out to be a God, only shows how much you do not “truly” believe what he said , do you?  Your contempt for what Jesus actually said, is clear to anyone who has the Spirit of God “IN” them. 

    How could Jesus ever say, “the son of man can do “NOTHING”, OF HIMSELF”  If he were God, because he also said “all things are possible with God”? So if he were God “nothing would be impossible for him, the son of man,  to do.  But yet he said he could do “NOTHING ” of himself.  Do you see how your corrupt teachings, corrupt the word of Jesus and God the father also? 

     And we also have scripture that says, “but unto us there is only “ONE” God,  and one mediator between God and men, “THE MAN” , Jesus Christ>  

    Fact is Carmel, you “truly ” don’t believe,  what Jesus Christ said , nor God the Father either

    peace ad love to you and yours…………gene

     

    November 5, 2023 at 6:07 am#945460
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    I try to be more specific.
    (Please bear with me because English is not my native language)

    I have to admit that I see for the first time that the context
    of John 3:16 is speaking of God giving His Son at the crucifixion.
    I always thought that John 3:16 is speaking of the incarnation.
    Well, I was wrong.
    I take back what I said about Gene, Nick and you.

    Then about Jesus mission:
    I agree that Jesus had no power of his own on this earth.
    Jesus did everything through the Spirit of His Father YHVH!

    But (I still believe) that he pre-existed as God’s Son and
    by becoming a man, he emptied himself of his divinity.
    (Philippians 2:5-8 – As I understand it)

    It all matters if we can resolve the pre-existence question.
    Was Jesus personally alive before he was born of Mary?
    Because of verses like John 8:58, I believe he was.
    But I try to be open-minded.

    God bless

    November 5, 2023 at 7:15 am#945461
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    John 5: 19 THEN answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things so ever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 THAT all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing : as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    John 12: 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man (anthropos/HUMAN) Christ Jesus;

    Berean, first off, we are given directly that there is ONE GOD and Jesus is NOT that God, further we are directly given that Jesus is a human messenger and mediator of the ONE GOD.

    Second, the context of John 5:23 is clearly given to us within that very chapter and further in chapter 12 but you completely ignore it.

    “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son, THAT all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.”

    It is BECAUSE the Father committed all judgement unto the Son THAT all men should honor the Son even as they honor the Father.

    You say they honor the Son even as they honor the Father because the Son is also God himself. This is truly absurd in the face of scripture. The Son can do nothing of himself, it is only through our ONE TRUE God the Father that Jesus can do anything at all. Jesus’s honor is only through our ONE TRUE GOD, the Father. 

    Jesus comes in his Father’s name, YHVH who is declared as our ONE TRUE GOD. Jesus speaks YHVH’s words and does YHVH’s works, so rejecting Jesus equates then to directly rejecting YHVH. Likewise, if you are honoring Jesus you are then directly honoring YHVH. 

    Jesus speaks YHVH’s words and does YHVH’s works in YHVH’s name because YHVH’s Spirit dwells in him. YHVH’s Spirit in Jesus, where it’s fruit is in all goodness righteousness and truth, is the means by which Jesus also judges the world. Honoring Jesus as judge is thus directly honoring YHVH. This is the very context Jesus gives us regarding his honor.

    Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of YHVH will rest on him, the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the YHVH 3 and he will delight in the fear of the YHVH. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; 4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

    Your belief,

    The Father has committed all judgment unto me, I can do nothing of myself,  honor me as you honor the Father, for I am God.

    Absurd Berean!

    Mine,

    The Father has committed all judgment unto me, I can do nothing of myself, honor me as you honor the Father, for I do not judge by my own eyes and ears, I judge through the Father’s Spirit of righteousness that dwells in me.

    November 5, 2023 at 8:21 am#945462
    Jodi
    Participant

    Carmel,

    YOU:

    ANSWER PLEASE:

    ISN’T “YHVH” THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    DIDN’T THE FATHER GIVE JESUS THE NAME “YHVH” WHICH IS ABOVE ALL NAMES?

    ME:

    NO Carmel, can you not read the passage to which I already gave you?

    Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    YHVH gave Jesus the name of Jesus and this given name is above every name. YHVH gave Jacob the new name Israel and Jesus’s name is above the name Israel. YHVH also named Ishmael which Jesus’s name is above Ishmael. YHVH named Isaac and Jesus’s name is above Isaac’s name. YHVH named John and Jesus’s name is above John and we can read more of the people throughout the bible that YHVH gave their name to, but the name given to Jesus is above all other names given.

    YHVH highly exalted Jesus, he exalted the Son of Man to His right hand just as He had promised and this MAN was given a name above every name. We bow to him because he has been appointed by our One True God YHVH, to be our king of kings and lord of lords, where he rules through YHVH’s Spirit abiding in him. 

     

    November 5, 2023 at 9:17 am#945463
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    you
    Berean, first off, we are given directly that there is ONE GOD and Jesus is NOT that God, further we are directly given that Jesus is a human messenger and mediator of the ONE GOD.

    me

    I NEVER SAID THAT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, JESUS IS THIS ONE GOD.

    I SAID THAT HE IS GOD BY NATURE, BECAUSE BEING BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, HE HAS THE SAME DIVINE NATURE AS HIM…

    “THE WORD” WAS WITH (THE) GOD AND “THE WORD “ WAS GOD.

    UNTIL YOU BELIEVE THIS YOU WILL DISTORTE THE REST OF THE BIBLE

    🙏

    November 5, 2023 at 9:23 am#945464
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    “For God so loved the world,”
    the tense used here is in the past tense

    “that he gave his only begotten son”

    When Jesus speaks, he is at the beginning of his earthly ministry.
    He says: 👉 “that he gave his only begotten Son” (the tense is also in the past tense)
    He did  not said “He will give”

    God has already given His only begotten Son”
    By becoming incarnate, the Son of God offered himself as a living sacrifice, and this sacrifice will go all the way to the cross of Calvary.

    Because God so loved the world, He let His dear Son come down to our earth to give His life as a ransom for the multitude.

    God gave his “dearest” for the redemption of lost humanity.

    And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb 👉 who was slain from the foundation of the world. 👈
    Revelation 13:8

    God bless

    November 5, 2023 at 10:43 am#945465
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    Thanks for your reply! For English not being your native language, I am very impressed with your written English skills!

    I hope you don’t mind, but I would like to talk about Philippians 2 before going into John 8:58.

    Philippians 2 holds a special place in my heart, I find it extremely impactful, which when it gets misinterpreted the message therein gets completely destroyed.

    1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    The following verse, verse 6, is in the context of the mind of the anointed Jesus, to which Paul is asking men, who have the fellowship of the Spirit, to be like minded with him.

    Christ Jesus to me equates to he who received God’s Spirit without measure at the river Jordan and so we are thinking about the mind of a man who has just received God’s Spirit and all the miraculous powers therein. This equation is do to Isaiah 61, to which Jesus quotes concerning himself in Luke 4.  Jesus said “the Spirit is upon me because YHVH has anointed (Chrio) me”, hence we have Jesus becoming the Christos and it is from here that Jesus said also that he was sent.

    The men Paul is speaking to, to me equates to those who received God’s Spirit by measure at Pentecost where they needed to be like minded with Christ Jesus. Recall John 17, Jesus said “they are not of the world as I am not of the world” and “as thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.” These whom were sent needed to be like minded with the anointed Jesus who was sent.

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    He who was anointed of the Spirit not by measure and given the powers of the Spirit was in the form of God. Being GIVEN the Spirit of God without measure he thus did not think it robbery then to be equal to God.

    Upon being filled with the Spirit Jesus first is sent into the wilderness to be tested. He fasted for 40 days and for 40 nights and afterward he hungered, so even though he was in the form of God, he found himself to be in fashion as a man for he did indeed hunger. He could have used the powers of the Spirit upon him to make for himself bread from stones but he humbled himself, he quoted Moses and said, “That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God”. Jesus took upon himself the form of a servant and he left the wilderness being sent out to do God’s works in God’s name.

    “he took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death“.

    2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Isaiah 53:he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Jesus was not deserving of death, but he went to his death being numbered as a transgressor, where he was mocked, spit on, beaten and nailed to a cross seen as a sinner, which is to the likeness of ever man. God made him to be sin for us. Finding himself in this state he humbled himself and was obedient to God unto his death, where being in the form of God with the powers of the Spirit he could have saved himself at any time, instead he was a faithful servant.

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

    The mind of the anointed Jesus who was in the form of God having received His Spirit not by measure was obedient, he was a servant of God putting others above himself, dying for us, having no vain glory. Paul is asking men who have received the Spirit and have been sent out into the world for them to be of this same mind as the anointed Jesus. They too were going to face persecution. Jesus himself spoke of their fate asking them to be faithful unto death, just as he was faithful.

    Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

     

    November 5, 2023 at 11:50 am#945466
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Thanks for providing clarification as to how you see Jesus as God but not the One True God.

    YOU:

    I SAID THAT HE IS GOD BY NATURE, BECAUSE BEING BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, HE HAS THE SAME DIVINE NATURE AS HIM…

    “THE WORD” WAS WITH (THE) GOD AND “THE WORD “ WAS GOD.

    UNTIL YOU BELIEVE THIS YOU WILL DISTORTE THE REST OF THE BIBLE

    ME:

    Your doctrine is that a Son of God is God and became a human who is also still God, if I have that correct, or close enough.

    But that is against direct scripture, for 1 Chronicles 17 tells us that FIRST you have a Son of Man and THEN GOD becomes a Father to him.

    You proceed further against direct scripture and give a false image of the Son, for Romans 8 tells us that one who is led by the Spirit of God is the Son of God and one where the Spirit bears witness to his spirit is a child of God. 

    Further, regarding the image of the Son, to which is contrary to your image, we are given 1 John 3

    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the CHILDREN of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    CHILDREN Berean! The SAME way Jesus is a Son of God is to be the SAME way God begets other children. 

    Ephesians 9:5 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    It doesn’t take a genius to equate God’s seed to be that of His Spirit.  A Son of God is about being righteous, it’s about being led by the Spirit of God in all your ways, it’s about the Spirit being ALL in you to the cause of righteousness, where that Spirit bears witness to your spirit that you are a child of God, you have been born of God, begotten of His Spirit, His Spirit is aboding in you. 

    It’s astonishing what you just flat out deny Berean.

    Isaiah 42 tells us that our Creator called a Son of Man to righteousness FOR THE PURPOSE TO FULFILL His covenant and we read that this Son of Man received God’s Spirit without measure, which it is being born of the Spirit of God that bears the fruit of righteousness. We are even told that Jesus said he had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness and the moment he came out of the water the Spirit that causes righteousness came to abode in him and remain in him. He was begotten of God’s seed and then at that moment God declared this man to be His Son, which fulfilled God’s promise unto David. 

    The image of your Son of God Berean, is make believe, a completely false image against direct scripture, coming forth from nothing but circular reasoning based on one misinterpreted passage after another.

    More was fulfilled, as Jesus died but God did not allow his flesh to see corruption, He raised him from the dead and exalted this Son of Man to His right hand having given him the PROMISED SPIRIT, making the resurrected Jesus to be BORN OF God’s SEED where he was settled into God’s House and His kingdom forever, meaning eternal life unto a Son of Man, just as was promised unto David. THIS WAS God’s WORD FROM THE BEGINNING, God ALL IN, His Spirit, His Righteousness, His Eternal Life, “this day I have begotten you“.

    This Son of Man is then returning in the glory of the Father, the glory that had been with God for this man from the beginning. Jesus will inhabit the earth and fill it with the knowledge of YHVH, bringing YHVH to be ALL IN ALL, the very purpose that YHVH had created heaven and earth for in the first place. So in this MAN, YHVH made all things consist. In this MAN, YHVH made all things by reason of and for, David’s son to whom YHVH had promised to become a Father to. 

    I will say to you what I said to Carmel, you undermine the Spirit, it’s blasphemous. You speak against the Spirit of YHVH not giving credit where credit is due. YHVH made humans in His own image, He gave humans a spirit to which His Spirit could bear witness to. From the beginning when YHVH promised Eternal Life, His WORD was a promise to become ALL IN ALL, His Spirit bearing fruit to righteousness unto eternal life. His WORD that was With Him and is Him, for He is Spirit, He is Righteousness and He is Eternal Life. The Son of Man at His right hand bears this very image, He has the Spirit in him and he is returning to earth in this glory, the glory of our Father.

    November 5, 2023 at 8:50 pm#945467
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi,
    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,(the beast )whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb👉 slain from the foundation of the world.👈

    The heart of the Son of God was ready “from the foundation of the world”
    for infinite sacrifice….

    🙏

    November 6, 2023 at 7:16 am#945468
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was…24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham

    Acts 7: 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Before the foundation of the world YHVH foreordained one man to be called to righteousness and be obedient unto his death for the sins of the world. YHVH also foreordained before the foundation of the world for this man to be raised from the dead and receive glory.

    Jesus is this man who indeed died on the cross for the sins of the world as was purposed before the world was.

    Jesus is this man who indeed was raised from the dead and given glory as was purposed before the world was.

    November 6, 2023 at 8:54 pm#945469
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    As always, you quote THE WORD, BUT YOU ADD A FALSE INTERPRETATION.

    THE DIVINE SAVIOR EXISTED BEFORE HE CAME TO INCARN ON EARTH
    ….AND “THE WORD”
    WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELL AMONG US….(JOHN 1:14)

    And he( Son of GOD) was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is 👉called The Word of God.👈 

    🙏

    November 7, 2023 at 3:24 am#945500
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean, my position is directly from scripture!

    Where is the false interpretation exactly?

    The resurrected Jesus, in his flesh and bones body as witness to many, had ENTERED the glory to which he preached a number of times, glory unto a Son of Man, to which also we read had been prepared before the world was, this man’s death, his resurrection and his glory, all prepared from the beginning.

    There is NOTHING in Revelation 19 about Jesus pre-existing as our Creator.

    We are given scripture that clearly shows the truth regarding his name being called The Word of God. John in chapter 19 is directly speaking of prophecy from Isaiah. 

    Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Ephesians 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    The Son of Man returns in the glory of our Father where through the Spirit of our Father aboding in him by the breath of his lips he is able to slays the wicked.

    His mouth through the Spirit is powerful, just as before when Jesus was able to heal the sick and raise the dead by his word, now he will destroy the wicked by his mouth having been made like a sharp sword.

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    His name is called the word of God because the Spirit of God is upon him making his mouth like a sharp sword where he is able to slay the wicked with the breath of his lips.

    Now who Berean is adding false interpretation? 

    November 7, 2023 at 4:25 am#945501
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……if you could just understand who what Peter said,  it would straighten out all you false conceptions about who Jesus is….1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was “FOREORDAINED” , (that means he was in the plan of God before he started his creation of this earth), before the foundation of the world, but was “MANIFESTED”, (brought into existence), in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do , “believe in GOD”, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; “that your faith and hope may be “IN GOD”.

    WHAT  was Jesus’ purpose?,  to cause us to put of “FAITH AND HOPE “IN” GOD”. It was not to put our hope and faith in Jesus, but in God the Father, the exact same God Jesus put all his “Faith and hope in, GOD THE FATHER. 

    2Ths 2 , a “prophecy”  of the Apostle Paul concerning the Churches,  describes exactly what you people have done to the  “image of Jesus”.  You have taken the man Jesus and turned him into your God,  and you worship him as such,  and will suffer the consequences of that, at his return by his own mouth.  God the father and Jesus will reject anyone who makes and worship another God besides “the ONE and “ONLY” TRUE GOD”.  

    “REPENT” WHILE YOU CAN Berean.

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean…………gene

    November 7, 2023 at 7:01 am#945502
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Jodi

    You

    His name is called the word of God because the Spirit of God is upon him making his mouth like a sharp sword where he is able to slay the wicked with the breath of his lips.

    Me

    In the BIGINNING WAS “THE WORD”

    AND “THE WORD”

    WAS WITH (THE) GOD

    AND “THE WORD” WAS GOD

    So in the BIGINNING, the Son of God IS named “THE WORD”

    AND because THE SON OF GOD NAMED”THE WORD” WAS GOD, GOD THE FATHER made by him ALL THINGS

    ; and without him( THE WORD) was not any thing made that was made.(V.3)

     

    When the SON OF GOD RETURNS (REV.19:13) HE IS AGAIN NAMED THE WORD OF GOD,
    HE’S THE SAME PERSON AS IN THE BEGINNING
    BUT IN A GLORIFIED HUMAN BODY.

    IF HE WAS GOD IN THE BEGINNING, HE STILL IS GOD WHEN HE RETURNED, BUT UNITED TO A GLORIFIED HUMAN BODY.

    🙏

     

     

    November 7, 2023 at 7:14 am#945503
    Berean
    Participant

    I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT DOUBT THE FACT THAT THE SON OF GOD AND MAN WAS CONSTANTLY CLOTHED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND MORE PARTICULARLY WITHOUT MEASURE FOR HIS EARTH MINISTRY TO MEN (HUMANITY).

    🙏

    November 7, 2023 at 7:52 am#945504
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    Thanks for your interpretation of Philippians 2.
    I have to think about that.

    What I can say is that I agree that Jesus became the Anointed One at his baptism.
    Otherwise we are making a mockery out of this great event.
    I don’t want to be in that camp any longer.

    Matthew 3:16-17
    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him,
    and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove,
    and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying,
    This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    God bless

    November 7, 2023 at 12:09 pm#945505
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DD,

    You: Hi Jodi,

    Thanks.
    I agree with most of your teachings.
    Jesus accomplished his mission with the help of God’s spirit.
    I totally agree with that.

    Me: Danny,

    See if you agree also With this TRUTH!

    GOD ACCOMPLISHED EVERYTHING WITH JESUS’SPIRIT!

    THE SOURCE OF CREATION!

    GOD GAVE JESUS’ SPIRIT RIGHT IN THE VERY FIRST ACT OF CREATION!

    THE BEGINNING! John 1:1

    ALL CREATION IS CRAMMED WITH JESUS’ SPIRIT!

    ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM!

    NO JESUS NO CREATION!

    JUST REFLECT PLEASE!

    GOD THE FATHER NEVER ERADICATES TOTALLY ANY OF WHAT HE CREATES NO MATTER WHAT AND WHOM SIMPLY BECAUSE HE WOULD ERADICATE HIS SON.

    A PURE SUICIDE!

    THE ONLY REASON THAT GOD CREATED CREATION AND MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE IMPERFECT  TO EXIST IS SIMPLY ALL  MERIT TO JESUS!

    THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES!

    THE CHARITY OF CHRIST!

    NOW THE KINGDOM OF THE SON AT THE VERY END, WOULD BE  MANIFESTED PHYSICALLY ETERNALLY BY ALL THE IMPERFECT, SIMPLY PERFECTED BY JESUS’ SPIRIT THE SON OF MAN!

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    John 4:34 Jesus saith to them:

    My meat is to do the will of him that sent me,

    that I may perfect his work.

    THE FACT THAT GOD MADE JESUS HEIR OF ALL THINGS EVEN OF

    THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES!

    YAHWEH!

    Hebrews 1:2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son,

    whom he hath appointed heir of all things,

    by whom also he made the world.

     

    NOTICE “THE WORLD” NOT THIS WORLD!

    THE WORLD OF GENESIS 1:1

    John 17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had,

    before the WORLD was,

    WITH YOU.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

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