John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,041 through 25,060 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #945433
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Jodi, Nick and Gene,

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    If He gave us His Son, He then had to have a Son to give.
    It’s as simple as that!

    You guys are against the very heart of the Gospel.

    #945434
    Nick
    Participant

    And Jesus was declared by God to be His Son at the Jordan

    The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.

    #945435
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    You: And Jesus was declared by God to be His Son at the Jordan

    The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.

    Me: WRONG Nick!

    Even before that, he was declared the son of God!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945436
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    John 8:57-59
    Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
    Before Abraham was, I am.
    Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Do you want to throw stones, too?

    #945437
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DD,

    Do you hear the voice of the Eternal Spirit speaking through Jesus Christ yet?

    #945438
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DD,

    Those who did not hear the voice of God picked up the stones.

    #945439
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: THE “BY MYSELF” of Isaiah 44:24 THIS IS ALSO THE DEVINITY OF GOD, WHICH THE SON POSSESSES.

    ME:  Scripture absolutely does not make Jesus Christ our ONLY TRUE GOD, that is what you would have to debate if you want to keep asserting that Jesus was our creator.

    Jesus Christ, is the Son of the only true God. Jesus Christ is in the form of God, he is the expressed image of the only true God. Which there are many scriptures you deny that tell you exactly the image of the Son. The image you hold is from circular reasoning, it’s something you have made up from a number of scriptures you have grossly misinterpreted as the result of your denial.  

    The only true God we are directly told  made heaven and earth alone, by Himself. Further, we have scripture that tells us clearly that the only true God who had made heaven and earth by means of His own power and His own voice, did so by reason of and for Jesus Christ. 

    The LORD in Isaiah 44, “is the true God, he is the living God” also spoken of in Jeremiah 10 and elsewhere, where this true God IS NOT also the Son of God.

    John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Thess 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    The above passage directly relates to Isaiah 44 and Jeremiah 10,

    Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. 10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing? 11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together…17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. 18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand…21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. 22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. 23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    Jeremiah 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe…10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. 11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. 12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures…16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name. 17 Gather up thy wares out of the land, O inhabitant of the fortress. 18 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will sling out the inhabitants of the land at this once, and will distress them, that they may find it so.

    There is the only true God and then there is Jesus Christ who the only true God sent and He sent him to fulfill His purpose for having created all things in the first place.

    There is the only true God and then there is His Son who will come down from heaven to inhabit the earth and rule over it. The only true God HIMSELF made the earth and He made it BY REASON OF and FOR the Son to inhabit it and rule over it.

    Isaiah 45:18 God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited.

    Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    #945440
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    You:

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    If He gave us His Son, He then had to have a Son to give.
    It’s as simple as that!

    You guys are against the very heart of the Gospel.

    ME:

    Danny your are missing the context and so much more!

    What are you told directly beforehand?

    John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    The Son of Man is the Son of God and the Son of Man being lifted up is reference to him being lifted up onto the cross and thus it is God giving his only begotten Son as a sin offering as he was lifted up indeed to die for our sins.

    Now how is the Son of Man the Son of God, moreover His only begotten?

    Well, first of all we know that a Son of Man becoming a Son of God is according to a promise.

    1 Chronicles 17: 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    So how does God take this Son of David and make him into His own Son, His only begotten Son, where He also then settles him into His kingdom forever?

    John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 

    Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    God had promised to become a Father unto a Son of Man and He promised to settle him into His kingdom. Jesus said that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom and we read that Jesus when he was baptized rising up out of the water and the Spirit of God descended upon him, it was at that moment God declared this man to be His Son. We also read that God THEN SENT this Son out into the world where we know he would be persecuted for the works he did through having been begotten of God’s Spirit. He died but then was raised from the dead being exalted in God’s kingdom at God’s right hand. A Son of Man entered God’s kingdom and when he was raised from the dead he received the promised Spirit and those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

    Danny, God’s word was made true in the man Jesus where people beheld his glory as he was sent out speaking God’s word and doing God’s works.

    Isaiah 42 tells us that he who receives God’s Spirit, a calling to righteousness to fulfill God’s covenant is a glory that God would give no other, it’s the glory of only one man being begotten of God’s Spirit called to righteousness filled with grace and truth being sent out into the world where he would be persecuted unto his death, which fulfills the covenant.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    He whom God SENT is Jesus of Nazareth, the promised son of David to whom God had promised He would be a Father to, He is a Father according to the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth, and as Jesus was the only mortal man to have received it not by measure the people beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten Son, full of grace and truth

    This all perfectly aligns with the image of the Son that Paul gives us in Romans 8. Paul says that we are to be made into the image of the Son and prior he says that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and that it is the Spirit that bears witness to our spirit that we are a child of God, and if a child then an heir of God a joint heir with Christ.

    Read through the gospels Danny, the proof that Jesus is making that he is God’s Son all has to do with the Spirit of God having come to live in him, even the devil knows this as he attributes Jesus as God’s Son through the powers of the Spirit he had been begotten with at the river Jordan.

     

    #945441
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Scripture absolutely does not make Jesus Christ our ONLY TRUE GOD,

    Scripture absolutely does not tell us :

    THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    1Corinthians 8:6 Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and

    one Lord Jesus Christ,

    by whom are all things, and we by him.

    What actually Paul meant with the above rather, ambiguous declaration may I ask? Let’s read THE SCHEMA.

    Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel,

     the Lord our God is one Lord.

    Got it, Jodi? Read again please:

    THE LORD OUR GOD IS

    ONE LORD!

    How come then, that with respect to Deut. above, IF THERE’S ONLY ONE LORD, a clear reference to (YHWH), Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:6 in his particular gospel above revealed to him directly by Jesus,

    preached that Jesus IS

    ONE LORD?

    Which means that both the Father and His son are

    ONE LORD!

    Not only that but read again hereunder

    Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel,

    the Lord our God is one Lord.

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL

    THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD!

    Hence:

    JESUS CHRIST IS OUR LORD AND ONE GOD AS WELL! Well asserted in

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

     

    Now read also what the scripture tells us:

    I John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know THE TRUE God,

    and may be in his TRUE Son.

    This is  THE TRUE God and life eternal.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945442
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……Another “excellent” post Sis.  All those who have eyes to see, can clearly see what you are saying, the rest are simply blinded to the truth, by all the deception in so-called “Christianity” that’s floating around out there.  It’s simply amazing how Nick, you and I can see what we are saying clearly, and are in agreement, but the rest here seem not to  be capable to even comprehend what we are saying, that’s “amazing” to me,  how God has hid the truth from some and revealed it to others. 

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………..gene

    #945443
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You:

    That’s “amazing” to me,

     how God has hid the truth from some and revealed it to others. 

     

    Me: Scripture:

    Matthew 7:1 JUDGE not, that you may not be judged, 2For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3Any why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? 4Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye, and behold a beam is in thy own eye?

    5Thou hypocrite,

    cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    6Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945445
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….Yes and Jesus also said, unto you it has been given, the knowledge of the kingdom of God, but unto the rest it is in parables, that hearing they hear not, and seeing they see not. He also said, “wide is the way of destruction and “many” go in threat thereof, but narrow is the true gate that leads to life,  and few there be that find it”.

    I know what gate Nick, Jodi, and I are in, and I know what gate and way  you are in,  trust me when I tell you, we are not the same gate or way you and others here are. Your very own word give you away, as it does others here also.  The sound of truth is not in your words, or you would be agreeing with what we are telling you.  Just that simple Carmel, and  I realize you are not able to comprehend what I am telling you .

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

    #945446
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    You doctrine is truly ridiculous in the face of the sum of all scripture, it’s like you haven’t read through the bible at all yourself, but rather you just have some man’s doctrine you believe in and reference.

    YOU:

    1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and

    one Lord Jesus Christ,
    by whom are all things, and we by him.

    What actually Paul meant with the above rather, ambiguous declaration may I ask? Let’s read THE SCHEMA.

    Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel,

    the Lord our God is one Lord.

    Got it, Jodi? Read again please:

    THE LORD OUR GOD IS

    ONE LORD!

    ME: Paul’s words are not ambiguous at all, you just have to read the passage that comes directly before where you are given the context. 

    1 Corinthians 8:4 Concerning the eating then of the things sacrificed to idols, we have known that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God (theos) except one; 5 for even if there are those called gods (theos), whether in heaven, whether upon earth, as there are gods (theos) many and lords (kurios) many 6 YET to us is one God (theos), the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord (kurios), Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through him;

    Paul meant what he said, as there are gods (theos) many and lords (kurious) many, to us there is one God (theos) the Father and there is one lord (kurios), Jesus Christ.

    theos-a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

    kurios- he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

    Thess 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God (theos) from idols to serve the living and true God (theos); 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    This Son, returns to be a king of kings and a lord of lords in obedience to the true God. This Son is the promised Messiah who rules through the Spirit of the true God living in him. This Messiah was elected by the true God from among his brethren to be His servant ruling overall the earth.

    The above biblical facts that are given to us throughout the bible make Paul’s words clear, we have one God the Father who is the true God and He appointed for us to have one lord who would be above all the other lords and he would be one king above all the other kings, Jesus Christ. 

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation…30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD 3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; 4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

    Ephesians 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    Our Messiah, our lord and king, whom YHVH elected from among his brethren, fulfills YHVH’s day where he judges the world not by his own eyes and ears but through having been born of YHVH’s Spirit, all of which YHVH had prepared even before Abraham ever existed.

    YHVH/Jehovah is the NAME of our ONE TRUE God our heavenly Father, most translators translated this NAME YHVH to LORD, as the KJ version above shows. It really should go without saying, but in the case with you Carmel I better go ahead and say it, YHVH is also called lord not to be confused with LORD ( YHVH) and He is lord because He is lord over Jesus and thus lord overall.

    Deut 6:4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah 5 and thou hast loved Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might,

    Deuteronomy 18:15 `A prophet out of thy midst, out of thy brethren, like to me, doth Jehovah thy God raise up to thee, unto him ye hearken;..17 and Jehovah saith unto me, They have done well that they have spoken; 18 a prophet I raise up to them, out of the midst of their brethren, like to thee; and I have given my words in his mouth, and he hath spoken unto them all that which I command him; 19 and it hath been, the man who doth not hearken unto My words which he doth speak in My NAME, I require it of him.

    YHVH is the NAME of our one true God, there is only ONE YHVH. Jesus is the prophet who YHVH raised up from among his brethren and Jesus speaks YHVH’s words in YHVH’s NAME.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, Because Jehovah did anoint me To proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives liberty, And to bound ones an opening of bands. 2 To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah, And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all mourners.

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens ALONE, Spreading out the earth, BY MYSELF 25 Making void the tokens of devisers, And diviners it maketh mad, Turning the wise backward, And their knowledge it maketh foolish. 26 Confirming the word of His servant, The counsel of His messengers it perfecteth, Who is saying of Jerusalem, She is inhabited, And of cities of Judah, They shall be built, and her wastes I raise up,

    Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be THY NAME. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    To say that Jesus’s name is YHVH and that he is our creator, is beyond absurd.

    YHVH made heaven and earth by Himself, by means of the powers of His own Spirit and by means of His own Voice, for the purpose it be made new and inhabited where men do not seek Him in vain, which we are given only comes through God’s Spirit being all in all, as the fruit of the Spirit is in all righteousness, goodness and truth. The Son of Man, Jesus of Nazareth, is the firstborn of this new heaven and earth and it is he whom YHVH appointed to bring forth people of all nations to also be born of the Spirit, YHVH ALL IN ALL. This is exactly why we are told that in Jesus all things consist and without him nothing would have been made that was made. Exactly why we are told that all things were made by reason of him and for him.

    You gave 1 John 5:20 and you misinterpret it completely and you ignore the context of the entire chapter.

    We know that the Son of God was sent to speak the words of the true God, he through the true God’s Spirit declared good tidings, declared the true God’s coming kingdom and eternal life. All that Jesus did was in the name of the true God so that we might believe in the true God. All that Jesus did was a witness that God was in him, not that he was God himself.

    20:And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    The true God is the God who Jesus, the Son of God, gave us an understanding to, which he gave us understanding that we may know his Father and our Father, his God and our God. Good grief Carmel, it is vile what you do with scripture, you could not be more in the dark.

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Jesus taught that we will be baptized with the baptism he received, that we will drink of the cup that he drinks of, which that cup is YHVH’s Spirit, where YHVH can be ALL IN ALL, YHVH’s entire purpose for having created heaven and earth in the first place. Jesus preached of the coming kingdom of YHVH which YHVH had promised unto David that his son would be settled into forevermore. YHVH raised Jesus from the dead and gave him the PROMISED SPIRIT, the cup that Jesus drinks forevermore in YHVH’s kingdom. This resurrected Jesus appeared to many, where God’s WORD OF LIFE that had been WITH the Father from the beginning, was believed on as being true, giving us faith and hope in our heavenly Father YHVH.

    You gave John 17:10, lets read it with the surrounding text

    6 I have manifested THY NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

    Jesus was ANOINTED (Chrio becoming Christos) with the Spirit not by measure, he was completely filled with the Spirit, then he was sent out to do God’s works where he was not of this world but from God, from heaven. He represented the full body of YHVH’s Spirit. On Pentecost men were given gifts of the Spirit, they too were sent out into the world to do God’s works, where together they equated the body of Christ, which represents the fullness of God’s Spirit. With the fullness of God’s Spirit in Jesus he is trusted to have all things placed into his hands. We read all that Jesus will fulfill being LED by YHVH’s Spirit, he destroys the wicked putting all enemies under his feet, he rewards the faithful with the Spirit to the measure where they can ALL walk in ALL of God’s ways and thus they are without sin and without death. The son of Jesse brings forth peace unto all the earth for both Jews and Gentiles.

    #945447
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    Thanks.
    I agree with most of your teachings.
    Jesus accomplished his mission with the help of God’s spirit.
    I totally agree with that.
    But the major difference is that I believe that Jesus was God’s Son BEFORE He came to earth as a man.
    There are some pre-existence Bible verses that shows that.
    For example John 8:58.
    Maybe you could share your thoughts on this verse?
    I am open to correction.

    God bless

    #945448
    carmel
    Participant

    .

    #945449
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Hi Carmel,

    You doctrine is truly ridiculous in the face of the sum of all scripture, it’s like you haven’t read through the bible at all yourself, but rather you just have some man’s doctrine you believe in and reference.

    Let’s see who’s doctrine is ridiculous!!!

    You: To say that Jesus’s name is YHVH and that he is our creator, is beyond absurd.

    Scripture:

     

    John 17:10 And all my things are thine,

    EXPLAIN Jodi please

    WHAT  JESUS’ ALL THINGS ARE THAT ALSO BELONG TO THE FATHER?

    and thine are mine;

    WHAT  THE FATHER’S ALL THINGS ARE THAT BELONG ALSO TO JESUS?

    and I am glorified in THEM.

    AND HOW IS JESUS GLORIFIED IN ALL THE THINGS THAT BELONG BOTH TO THE FATHER AND TO HIMSELF? 

    Now to the next one:

    Philippians 2:10 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him

    a name which is above all names:

    Jodi here comes another one for you to chew! Read please:

    WHICH IS THE NAME, THAT THE FATHER GAVE  JESUS, PLUS THAT

    THIS PARTICULAR NAME IS

    ABOVE ALL NAMES! Jodi?

    YHVH NO?

    ANSWER PLEASE:

    ISN’T “YHVH” THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES!

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    DIDN’T THE FATHER GIVE JESUS THE NAME “YHVH” WHICH IS ABOVE ALL NAMES?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    CARRY ON READING Jodi:

    MY RIDICULOUS DOCTRINE:

    10 That in the name of Jesus

    EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW,

    of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

    Thus Paul made it emphatically clear above that HE ALSO BOW HIS KNEES TO JESUS OUR LORD, NOT ONLY TO GOD THE FATHER!

    OK Jodi? ACCORDING TO PAUL, THERE’S NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON, AS BOTH CAN, JUSTLY, AND EQUIVALENTLY “IN ONE INSTANT” RECEIVE ADORATION!

    John5:22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but hath given all judgment to the Son.

    23 That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.

    He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

    THE LAST ONE ABOVE IS FOR YOU, Gene, and to all those who are in harmony with

    YOUR RIDICULOUS PREACHING!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945450
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..You have just preached the whole gospel of the true “Kingdom of God”. Let’s see who get it.  I know Nick and I do, and it even looks like Danny is starting to come around also.

    “may the LORD, bless you and keep you, may he make his eyes to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, may he lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace “.   THANKS JODI. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………..gene

    #945451
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Weak human logic is your foundation for understanding the spiritual?

    #945454
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    You: Hi Carmel,

    Weak human logic is your foundation for understanding the spiritual?

    Me: WITH YOUR COMMENT, TOTALLY CARNALLY -MINDED, VOID, AND MORTAL, YOU CONFIRMED YOUR SPIRITUAL WEAKNESS!

    THE FACT THAT YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO SAY MORE THAN YOU SAID ABOVE, NEVER MIND COMMENT REGARDING SPIRITUALITY, WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOO!

    THE MAIN REASON THAT YOU NEVER USE SCRIPTURES AND  PROVE  WHAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS REFERRING TO, ESPECIALLY REGARDING

    SPIRITUALITY, THE FACT ALSO, THAT YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN

    SPIRITUALITY AND SPIRITUALISM.

    Just to remind you: PLEASE READ AGAIN MY LAST POST TO YOU, AND ANSWER IN ANY WAY YOU ARE MATURE IN????

    Hi Nick,

    You: And Jesus was declared by God to be His Son at the Jordan

    The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.

    Me: WRONG Nick!

    Even before that, he was declared the son of God!

    By the way, recall your comment. Post #945342

    What the scripture is referring to:

    Romans 9:5 – Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945455
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    Hold up! Before I get into John 8:58, I am a little puzzled at your response to my last post.

    YOU:

    I agree with most of your teachings.
    Jesus accomplished his mission with the help of God’s spirit.
    I totally agree with that.
    But the major difference is that I believe that Jesus was God’s Son BEFORE He came to earth as a man.

    ME:

    First off in John 8 we read, “28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.”

    Jesus’s mission is the mission God has given him and God anointed Jesus of the Spirit to be able to fulfill all that God asks of him. The Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence abodes in him. Jesus can do nothing of himself, he accomplishes all that God asks of him through God’s Spirit aboding in him. 

    Second, I am surprised that you didn’t have more to say with the scriptures I gave in my last post and all that you got from it was Jesus had God’s Spirit to accomplish his mission.

    In my response I wanted you to acknowledge that God giving His only begotten Son was speaking to God giving him over to death for our sins as the context in the verse prior speaks to the Son of Man being lifted up on the cross. You had said that God had to have a Son to give. Either you are accusing Gene, Nick and I of denying that the Son of Man Jesus Christ was God’s only begotten Son at the time he was raised up on the cross or you have misinterpreted verse 16 where you believe the verse is speaking of God giving a pre-existing Son from heaven sending him into Mary’s womb on earth.

    John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal lifeFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    We have unfinished business here!

    What is your understanding of verse 16 and how is it exactly that Gene, Nick and I are “against the very heart of the Gospel” in the context of this verse you’re giving to us as proof that we are. 

     

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