John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #945506
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: 6 I have manifested THY NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 

    Me: HOW DID JESUS MANIFESTED 

    GOD’S NAME? TO BE CLEAR

    HOW DID JESUS MANIFESTED 

    YAHWEH?

    Read please:

    John14:5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

    No man cometh to YAHWEH, but by me.

    7If you had known me,

    you would without doubt have known my Father also:

    …..you would without doubt have known YAHWEH also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth YAHWEH also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    How sayest thou, Shew us YAHWEH? 10Do you not believe, that I am in

    YAHWEH, and YAHWEH in me?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945507
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: At the moment Jesus received the Spirit,…. 

    No Jodi, JESUS DIDN’T RECEIVE THE SPIRIT AT ALL AT THE RIVER JORDAN!

    AT THE RIVER JORDAN GOD THE FATHER OFFICIALLY REVEALED HIS SON!

    GET IT INTO YOUR CARNAL CORRUPTED MIND, WITH EVERY RESPECT

    THAT JESUS WAS NOT JUST BORN OF BLOOD BUT OF

     OF THE HOLY GHOST Jodi

    WELL DEPICTED IN THE LAST SUPPER:

    THIS IS MY BLOOD….. EX SATANIC!

    Luke 2:48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

     49And he said to them: How is it that you sought me?

    did you not know, that I must be about my father’s business? 

    50And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them.

    Jodi, Jesus above, A CHILD OF TWELVE BORN OF THE HOLY GHOST, anticipated GOD THE FATHER and confirmed that GOD IS HIS FATHER!

     

    NOW READ WHEN JESUS HAD THE SPIRIT BEFORE CREATION STARTED!

     

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I have not spoken in secret from the beginning:

    John1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.

    from the time before it was done,

    BEFORE CREATION STARTED!

    I was there,

    and now the Lord God hath sent me, and his spirit.

    Confirmed Jodi!

    JESUS  ABOVE THROUGH THE PROPHET DECLARED THAT GOD

    HAD SENT HIM, AND HIS SPIRIT ( PRESENT PERFECT TENSE: THIS TENSE IS used for past actions that are related to or continue into the present.)

    Well asserted in John4:35 Do you not say, There are yet four months, and then the harvest cometh? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes, and see the countries; for they are white already to harvest.

     36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he that soweth, and he that reapeth, may rejoice together.

    THAT BOTH JESUS AND THE HOLY GHOST MAY REJOICE TOGETHER

     37For in this is the saying true: That it is one man that soweth,

    and it is another that reapeth.

    ONE MAN THAT SOWS, JESUS THE SON OF MAN

    AND IT IS ANOTHER THAT REAPS, THE HOLY GHOST!

    Well depicted in

    Acts 20: 28Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock,

    wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with

    his own blood. 

    WHOES BLOOD IS IT Jodi?

    definitely not of the Holy Ghost No?

    EXPLAIN PLEASE:

    HOW COME THEN THE HOLY GHOST OWNS THE BLOOD?

    BY WHICH BLOOD HE PURCHASED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE?

    THE HOUSE OF GOD TO BE!

    NOW TO PURCHASE A HOUSE THE MOST IMPORTANT IS THE MONEY. NO?

    AND WITHOUT THE MONEY YOU WON’T BE ABLE TO PURCHASE ANYTHING NEVER MIND A HOUSE! NO?

    TELL ME Jodi, please:

    WHOSE AND WHAT WAS THE MONEY OF GOD THAT HE PURCHASED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WITH?

    GOD’S HOUSE TO BE!

    THE FATHER IS SPIRIT AND HAS NO BLOOD AT ALL!

    BUT DEFINITELY, HAD TO BE GOD’S BLOOD NO? 

    MENTIONED ABOVE IN THE HOLY GHOST!

    I ASK YOU AGAIN:

    WHOES BLOOD IS IT Jodi?

    ISN’T IT JESUS’ BLOOD GOD’S BLOOD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #945508
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel you said, “No Jodi, JESUS DIDN’T RECEIVE THE SPIRIT AT ALL AT THE RIVER JORDAN!” .
    That is a blatant, “LIE” . 

    You are what John coined as a ” Antichrist”. ,  why ?  Because you are of  them that reject the baptism of Jesus,  who is called the “anointed one throughout all the scriptures.

    The Gnostics,  of Johns day also preached that false doctrine of Jesus not needing to be baptized, that is why he called them “Antichrist’s”,  or better yet a, anti – christo, meaning those who were  “against”, the “anointing of Jesus”.

    Peace and love to you and yours ……..gene

     

    #945509
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny,  you are on track brother,  Jesus was indeed the “anointed one”, anointed with the Holy Spirit of God, at the Jordan river, by God the Father himself. After he was baptized in water by John the Baptist.

    We are told to be baptized also,  in the name of Jesus,  with water and we also can receive the “Holy Spirit” of God into us to, making us sons of God and brothers and joint heirs with Jesus Christ .

    Danny don’t let these false teachers of fallen “Christianity”  fool you brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #945510
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Can you just tell us why Jesus was baptized by John,
    He who was without sin?

    For John baptized with the baptism of repentance, and  people confessed their sins….

    The texts do not say that Jesus confessed his sins…

    So why was he baptized, except to fulfill all righteousness? (Mat.3:15)
    What does this mean to you, Gene?

    How did John’s baptism of Jesus fulfill all righteousness?

    ……..

    Mark 1:1
    1 ] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
    [ 2 ] As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I will send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
    [ 3 ] The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    [ 4 ] John baptized in the wilderness and preached 👉the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.👈
    [ 5 ] And all the land of Judea and those of Jerusalem went out to him, and they were all baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.👈

    …..

    [9]And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
    [10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
    [11] And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. (Math.3:15)

    🙏

    #945511
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    It is your interpretation that ” the Word” in John 1:1, 1:14 and Rev 19:13 represents a person, but then in the over 125 other instances it apparently doesn’t, it’s okay in those instances to see “the Word” as representing a person’s actual words, God’s word.

    Your proof is extremely week that “the Word” represents a person, it is founded on circular reasoning of misinterpreted scriptures all the while ignoring the sum of all scripture.

    Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, PROMISED before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested His WORD through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

    John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and THE WORD which Jesus had said.

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.

    Berean, the Son of Man, Jesus of Nazareth, was foreordained by YHVH before the world was to be anointed of the Spirit and be sent out to preach the word, the coming kingdom of God and therein eternal life.  This man was also foreordained before the world was, to die and be resurrected and have the word be fulfilled in him, eternal life, so that our faith and hope would be in God.

    The WORD , ETERNAL LIFE was WITH our heavenly Father from the beginning and our heavenly Father is Himself that WORD. Just as this word of eternal life was in the beginning with God, the man who would have the word fulfilled in him AND give access of it to all, was ALSO in the beginning with God. Thus all things were made by reason of him and without him was not anything made that was made.

    We are given that, THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS IN ALL GOODNESS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND TRUTH. What does John chapter 1 contain? It speaks to Jesus receiving the Spirit of God which we are also told that the SPIRIT IS LIFE BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. 

    The Spirit of God came to dwell in Jesus and therefore “in him was life and that life was the light of men”.

    Upon Jesus receiving the Spirit, he was sent out to preach the kingdom of God and eternal life, to which was a promise that God had for him, as he was the promised son of David to whom God would become a Father to and settle him into His kingdom forever.

    Jesus preached that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. The chapter of John 1 gives us Jesus being born of God’s Spirit, God’s word being made true in the flesh and then we see this man raised unto eternal life entering into God’s kingdom forever  and being exalted to His right hand.

    As I have given to you before Berean, YHVH tells us what He accomplished by Himself and that which He accomplishes through an anointed man, Jesus of Nazareth. 

    YHVH made heaven and earth ALONE, all BY HIMSELF, but He fulfills His WORD that was WITH Him from the beginning and IS HIM, ETERNAL LIFE, in Jesus and by Jesus, therefore all things were made by reason of him and for him. He brings forth YHVH to be ALL IN ALL, therefore YHVH made in him all things to consist.  

    #945512
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    YHVH made heaven and earth ALONE, all BY HIMSELF, but He fulfills His WORD that was WITH Him from the beginning and IS HIM, ETERNAL LIFE, in Jesus and by Jesus, therefore all things were made by reason of him and for him. He brings forth YHVH to be ALL IN ALL, therefore YHVH made in him all things to consist.  

    Me

    I don’t see this written in my bible (by reason OF AND for him)

     

    You

    It is your interpretation that ” the Word” in John 1:1, 1:14 and Rev 19:13 represents a person,

    Me

    No, This IS the bible Truth :

    In verse 3

    All things were made👉 by him;

    and

    👉without him was not any thing made that was made.

    THE”HIM” IS ONE PERSON

    AND THIS PERSON IS

    THE SON OF GOD

    God and Jesus know I’m telling you the truth, Jodi

    Now when it says in Isaiah 44:

    Isa.44
    [24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that makesth all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth👉 by myself;

    I already answered you in other post

    It doesn’t change anything.
    God is the great architect and his Son his worker.
    ALL THE GLORY GOES TO GOD THE FATHER, EVEN IF THE SON IS THE CREATIVE AGENT OF THE FATHER.

    JODI, AN EXAMPLE IN THE MATERIAL WORLD.
    TELL ME WHO CREATED THE “FORD” CARS AND THE WHOLE RANGE?
    CERTAINLY MR. FORD HIMSELF…
    NOW WHO MADE/MAKES THESE CARS?
    MR FORD?

    OR ITS WORKERS (all kinds of workers) ?🤔😶

    🙏

     

     

    #945525
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    Thanks for your reply and reading through my post about Philippians 2.

    I have more for you on this that I would like for you to consider. An additional passage to then look at my position again.

    Deuteronomy 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. 3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Spirit returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    Phil 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Is Paul teaching us that a pre-existing Son of God humbled himself by becoming a man and that the people he was speaking to needed to be like minded with this pre-existing Son of God?

    Or,

    Is Paul teaching us that he who was anointed of the Spirit, Christ Jesus, had humbled himself and those also receiving the Spirit needed to humble themselves as well?

    Can you imagine being given the Spirit at Pentecost and being sent out having the power to heal?  Might one seek vain glory with that level of power? Isn’t Paul speaking about being like minded with the anointed Jesus who also had the power to heal and much greater power beyond that?

    With the powers of the Spirit Jesus had, he didn’t need to find himself ever in the likeness of man, he could have prevented his hunger, he could have prevented his torture and death, but instead, he who was in the form of God, humbled himself, he gave all credit to God and he remained an obedient servant.

     

    #945526
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    DIA is translated “by” and “through” and it does not only mean “by means of” it also holds the definition of “BY REASON OF“.

    Is it possible Berean that our heavenly Father created heaven and earth by reason of and for Jesus Christ?

    Did our heavenly Father create earth for it to be inhabited where men would not seek Him in vain, but rather worship him in all goodness, righteousness and truth? 

    Who inherits the earth and rules it in all goodness, righteousness and truth, having God ALL IN him?

    Who is returning in the glory of the Father destroying the wicked and bringing forth God to be ALL IN all, people of all nations inhabiting the earth worshiping God in all goodness, righteousness and truth?

    Did YHVH create earth FOR whom He foreordained to inherit it?

    Did YHVH create earth BY REASON OF  whom He foreordained to save it?

    Who fulfills all of YHVH’s will, YHVH’s entire purpose for creating earth in the first place? Wouldn’t then, by reason of him, all things consist?

    You say the Father was the architect and the Son was the worker. But can you acknowledge the architect made up the plans BY REASON OF AND FOR Jesus Christ?

    Does scripture though also teach that Jesus Christ pre-existed and was the worker, creating heaven and earth for himself?

    Psalm 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet.

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Berean, YHVH is the architect and the WORKER!

    To turn and say that this man pre-existed and was the one who actually did the work is beyond ridiculous.

    24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Berean, the stretching and spreading is the WORK to which YHVH did ALONE. He that maketh all things, made Jesus a little lower than the angels. He also MADE Jesus to have dominion over that which He MADE, He didn’t just design it, He MADE it BY HIMSELF and He did so by reason of and for whom He would give dominion over it to.  

     

    #945527
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean you said……>Gene

    Can you just tell us why Jesus was baptized by John,
    He who was without sin?

    For John baptized with the baptism of repentance, and  people confessed their sins….

    The texts do not say that Jesus confessed his sins…

    So why was he baptized, except to fulfill all righteousness? (Mat.3:15)
    What does this mean to you, Gene?

    How did John’s baptism of Jesus fulfill all righteousness?

    Berean……..There is a baptism by water for sins, and there  is a baptism of the Holy Spirit , one deals with our sins in the past ,which is called the baptism of “repentance”, the other deals, Baptism of the “Spirit”,  both are required for the salvation process.

    The perfection of Jesus was not accomplished by Jesus, but by the Holy Spirit he received at the Jordan River, after he was baptized by John the Baptist.  Jesus set us an example of what needs to happen to us all.  We all need the guidance of the “Holy Spirit” to be “IN” us in order to maintain righteousness,  but that righteousness is not of or from ourselves it is brought about by the Spirit of the living God,  and is given to us by God the Father,  and that includes Jesus “the anointed one” also.

    Ounce A man called Jesus “good master”, what was his answer?,  “why call me “good” there is “NONE GOOD”, except “ONE” and that is God”.   If you truly believe what he said, then you would know that Jesus never considered “himself”,  good , or that he ever considered “himself”  a rights person either.  His and our righteousness is of God the Fathers “Holy Spirit” that is dwelling “IN” US.  

    You false teachers have made him your God, and even worship him as that,  this false “image” of Jesus you create has turn the “IMAGE” of Jesus into “a man of sin”. You therefore will be held accountable for that at his return, unless you repent.  2 ths2,  describes exactly what you are doing,  for them who have eyes to see.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #945528
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    YHVH promised to crown a man with glory and honor. Jesus was that fulfilled prophecy.

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    A man was foreordained to die on a cross and then receive glory and honor. This was YHVH’s word even before the world was.

    Jesus himself preached of this glory, the glory that the Son of Man would receive. We read in Luke 24 that Jesus was raised from the dead entering into his glory.

    In John 17 why then would we NOT believe that Jesus would be asking God for the very glory that had been with God, foreordained for Jesus to receive, since even before the world was?

    John 17:5 is not proof Jesus pre-existed, it is Jesus declaring his faith that God’s word concerning the Son of Man is true.

    #945529
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Thank you for your answer

    As you also know, John baptized with the baptism of repentance all those who came to him and confessed their sins….

    Jesus came to John to be baptized with this baptism and the Spirit of the Father communicated to Him that He was indeed His beloved Son ‘in whom I am well pleased.’

    It is therefore after the baptism of Jesus that the Father testifies to his Son all his approval (acceptance) and his love
    to be the lamb that takes away the sin of the world
    This is what I believe, Jesus told the Jews in John 5:35
    And the Father himself, who hath sent me, hath born witness of me. Ye have neither 👉heard his voice at any time, 👉nor seen his shape.

    It was well after his baptism that Jesus heard “the voice of God his Father”
    👉This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.👈

    The voice does not say of Jesus that he becomes the or a son of the Son of God, but that he IS THE BELOVED SON OF GOD.
    AND CERTAINLY, THIS MUST HAVE BEEN VERY REASSURING FOR JESUS, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT A SHORT TIME AFTER, IN THE DESERT, THE DEVIL TEMPTED JESUS, AND IN PARTICULAR ON HIS IDENTITY ON TWO TIMES:

    “If thou be the Son of God…”
    BUT SATAN’S DESIRE WAS TO MAKE HIM SIN
    BY PUSHING HIM TO USE HIS CREATIVE POWER TO SATISFY HUNGER.

    BUT JESUS, ASSURED BY HIS FATHER’S TESTIMONY THAT HE IS HIS BELOVED SON IN WHOM HE PUT ALL HIS AFFECTION, DID NOT SEEK TO PROVE TO SATAN THAT HE IS THE BELOVED SON OF GOD BY PERFORMING A MIRACLE, BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT SATAN KNEW IT.

    TO BE CONTINUED

    🙏

    #945530
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel you said, “No Jodi, JESUS DIDN’T RECEIVE THE SPIRIT AT ALL AT THE RIVER JORDAN!” .

    Me: the above is a blatant, “LIE”. 

    Gene, I NEVER POSTED ONLY THAT VERSE, BUT A WHOLE POST:

    THAT VERES WAS ONLY AN INTRODUCTION TO MY WHOLE POST.

    NOW FIRST AND FOREMOST;

    I SAID WHAT THE SCRIPTURE CONFIRMS:

    THUS, THE  SCRIPTURE NEVER LITERALLY SAYS  THAT JESUS

    RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT! OK?

    CHEW AGAIN WHAT I POSTED,

    AND IF YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF CAPABLE OF CONTRADICTING WHAT I POSTED DO SO AND PRODUCE SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR BELIEF.

    HERE IT COMES:

    No Jodi, JESUS DIDN’T RECEIVE THE SPIRIT AT ALL AT THE RIVER JORDAN!

    AT THE RIVER JORDAN GOD THE FATHER OFFICIALLY REVEALED HIS SON!

    GET IT INTO YOUR CARNAL CORRUPTED MIND, WITH EVERY RESPECT

    THAT JESUS WAS NOT JUST BORN OF BLOOD BUT OF

      THE HOLY GHOST Jodi

    WELL DEPICTED IN THE LAST SUPPER:

    THIS IS MY BLOOD…..  EX SATANIC!

    DOD YOU GET THAT Gene, and Jodi?

    THE BLOOD JESUS MENTIONED IN THE LAST SUPPER ABOVE WHILE HOLDING THE WINE,

    WAS SATANIC ON EVE’S SIN!

    JESUS’OWN BLOOD WAS UNIQUE DIVINE OF THE FATHER, THROUGH HIS OWN MOUTH:

    THIS IS MY SON……..

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    THE WORD SPOKEN OF GOD MADE FLESH,

    NOT JUST IN JESUS’ FLESH BODY! OK???

    Luke 2:48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

     49And he said to them: How is it that you sought me?

    did you not know, that I must be about my father’s business? 

    50And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them.

    Jodi, Jesus above, A CHILD OF TWELVE BORN OF THE HOLY GHOST, anticipated GOD THE FATHER and confirmed that 

    GOD IS HIS FATHER!

     

    NOW READ WHEN JESUS HAD THE SPIRIT BEFORE CREATION STARTED!

     

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I have not spoken in secret from the beginning:

    John1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.

    from the time before it was done,

    BEFORE CREATION STARTED!

    I was there,

    and now the Lord God hath sent

    ME, and HIS SPIRIT.

    Confirmed Jodi!

    JESUS  ABOVE THROUGH THE PROPHET DECLARED THAT GOD

    HAD SENT HIM, AND HIS SPIRIT ( PRESENT PERFECT TENSE: THIS TENSE IS used for past actions that are related to or continue into the present.)

    Well asserted in John4:35 Do you not say, There are yet four months, and then the harvest cometh? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes, and see the countries; for they are white already to harvest.

     36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he that soweth, and he that reapeth, may rejoice together.

    THAT BOTH JESUS AND THE HOLY GHOST MAY REJOICE TOGETHER

     37For in this is the saying true: That it is one man that soweth,

    and it is another that reapeth.

    ONE MAN THAT SOWS, JESUS THE SON OF MAN

    AND IT IS ANOTHER THAT REAPS, THE HOLY GHOST!

    Well depicted in

    Acts 20: 28Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock,

    wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with

    his own blood. 

    WHOES BLOOD IS IT Jodi?

    definitely not of the Holy Ghost No?

    EXPLAIN PLEASE:

    HOW COME THEN THE HOLY GHOST OWNS THE BLOOD?

    BY WHICH BLOOD HE PURCHASED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE?

    THE HOUSE OF GOD TO BE!

    NOW TO PURCHASE A HOUSE THE MOST IMPORTANT IS THE MONEY. NO?

    AND WITHOUT THE MONEY YOU WON’T BE ABLE TO PURCHASE ANYTHING NEVER MIND A HOUSE! NO?

    TELL ME Jodi, please:

    WHOSE AND WHAT WAS THE MONEY OF GOD THAT HE PURCHASED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WITH?

    GOD’S HOUSE TO BE!

    THE FATHER IS SPIRIT AND HAS NO BLOOD AT ALL!

    BUT DEFINITELY, HAD TO BE GOD’S BLOOD NO? 

    MENTIONED ABOVE IN THE HOLY GHOST!

    SINCE HUMAN BLOOD WAS SATANIC ON EVE’S SIN!!!

    I ASK YOU AGAIN:

    WHOES BLOOD IS IT Jodi?

    ISN’T IT JESUS’ BLOOD GOD’S BLOOD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945531
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Is it possible Berean that our heavenly Father created heaven and earth by reason of and for Jesus Christ?

    Me: Isn’t it THE PURE TRUTH that our heavenly Father created heaven and earth by reason of and for 

    HIS KINGDOM?

    Matthew 6:33 Seek ye therefore FIRST the kingdom of God,

    and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.

    FIRST the kingdom of God, Jodi!!!

     

    Now to 1Corinthians 15 :Afterwards the end,

    when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father,

    when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. 

    You: Is it possible Berean that our heavenly Father created heaven and earth by reason of and for Jesus Christ?

    Explain Jodi, How come YOU PREACH  that,

    our heavenly Father created heaven and earth by reason of and for Jesus Christ?

    WHILE JESUS EVENTUALLY DELIVERS UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD THE FATHER, 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945532
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    In John 17 why then would we NOT believe that Jesus would be asking God for the very glory that had been with God, foreordained for Jesus to receive, since even before the world was?

    Me

    You👉….that Jesus would be asking God for the very glory that had been with God,

    Jodi, the text don’t Say that

    It Say 👉

    O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    that Jesus would be asking God for the very glory that had been with God,

    It’s not “asking God for the very glory that had been with God,”

    BUT THE GLORY WHICH THE SON OF GOD HAD WITH GOD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    Jesus said : 👉the glory which I had👈

    I HAD

    I : ONE PERSON

    IN THE BIGINNING, WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS 👉WITH (THE) GOD👈

    O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which 👉I had WITH THEE👈  before the world was.

    🙏

     

     

     

    So,

    #945533
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    `Carmel…….I also had eternal life, glory and honor, “with God the father”, before the world was.  I have yet to receive it, but it is “prophesied ”  for me.  The exact same thing applied to the “son of man”, Jesus Christ.

    Ask me for proof,  and I will give it to you,  right from scriptures.  But you will still deny it, just as you deny the truth of  what Jesus, said here over and over.

    Nick, Jodi, and I have born witness of the truth to, You and Berean over and over here,  but you both stubbornly refuse to listen to what the “Spirit” teaches.   Repent! , less the words of Jude come true on you,  who said….“wo unto them, for they have gone the way of Balem and will parish in the “gainsaying” of Korea”.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #945534
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    It’s all about the truth of who Jesus is, moreover who he knows himself to be. 

    “with the glory I had with (para, of/with/from) thee, before the world was.

    He knows himself to be the promised Son of Man.

    He knows himself to be the promised Son of God according to God’s word unto David, and according to God aboding in him, him being born of the Spirit. 

    Berean, as you believe Jesus is a pre-existing God from the beginning you read the passage like this, “with the glory I (a God from the beginning) had with thee, before the world was.

    I read the passage however like this, “with the glory I (the Son of Man and promised Son of God), had of thee before the world was.

    Does Jesus identify himself as the Son of Man? Yes, a good number of times and not only that but he speaks of himself as the Son of Man PROMISED TO RECEIVE GLORY, where he knows that glory has been with God since before the world was. 

    Does Jesus identify himself as the Son of God by the works of God that he is able to do because the Spirit of God abodes in him? Yes indeed, such is what we read Jesus proclaiming of himself throughout the gospels. Does Jesus identify himself as the son of David who God promised to be a Father to and settle him into His kingdom forever and make him an eternal king?  Yes, we read of Jesus speaking of his kingdom in Luke 22:29-30, Matthew 25:34 and John 18:37 as also elsewhere, where he knows that this glory was prepared since the foundation of the world. 

    Berean, YHVH declared the END FROM THE BEGINNING, what He declares IS TRUE, IT EXISTS unto YHVH and He manifests that which is true at the times on earth He appointed. You would do far better if you actually kept this in mind and applied it, for it would most likely keep you from your false interpretations.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To THIS END was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    The truth is the END to which Jesus declares he was born for, to which existed unto YHVH from the beginning, a Son of Man becoming an eternal king upon being settled into God’s kingdom forever, which is a glory that Jesus is soon to receive as he spoke to Pilate. Jesus was born the promised son of David, he was the Son of Man to whom God at the river Jordan became a Father to, where this Son was then sent out into the world to preach the truth, the truth concerning himself  to which he was born for, the END, him being settled into God’s eternal kingdom where he is going to return and be a king sitting upon his father David’s throne ruling through the Spirit that he has been begotten with. 

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

     

     

    #945535
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Hebrews 4: 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

    There is God, who RESTED on the 7th day from HIS WORK, he is the architect and the worker and then there is Jesus, the promised son of David. Jesus is of the people, he is the prophet whom God raised up from among his brethren and he is the promised son of David king over his father David’s throne. 

    Psalms 132: 9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy. 10 For thy servant David’s sake turn not away the face of thine anointed. 11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. 13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. 16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. 17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. 18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

    Jesus enters God’s rest, the God who had rested on the 7th day from HIS WORKS.

    Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Jesus is not a pre-existing Son of God, he is the PROMISED SON of God  according to God’s word unto David. Jesus was born of God’s Spirit and he entered into God’s kingdom forever, of which he had been foreordained for even before the world was. Jesus has entered into God’s rest, the God whom Himself had rested on the 7th day from all HIS WORKS.

    #945536
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    Berean, as you believe Jesus is a pre-existing God from the beginning you read the passage like this, “with the glory I (a God from the beginning) had with thee, before the world was.

    I read the passage however like this, “with the glory I (the Son of Man and promised Son of God), had of thee before the world was.

    Me

    I don’t said that:

    The Son of God was God in the BIGINNING AND he was WITH (the) GOD…

    THAT IS THE ONLY BIBLE TRUTH.

    DON’T TRIE TO REWRITE THE BIBLE, JODI

    BEFORE HE CAME ON HEART AND WAS MADE FLESH, HE WAS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD , AND BECAUSE OF THAT HE WAS GOD ( IN NATURE)

    🙏

    #945537
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    First off, thanks for continuing the debate!

    You are confused by my last post it seems though, with the point I was trying to make. It’s about how one interprets a passage through who they already believe Jesus to be and if it is a passage where Jesus says “I”, then they are interpreting it through who they believe Jesus believes himself to be.

    You said, “I don’t say that”, come again?  You have not told me that Jesus is a God existing from the beginning?

    You just in your last post said as much! You said, “The Son of God was God in the BIGINNING…”

    Let me try again. I am most certainly not rewriting anything, go read one of Carmel’s post for that.

    When Jesus says “with the glory I had”, I am merely pointing out who it is that you identify the “I” as, which is a God who existed from the beginning, as that is who you believe Jesus knows himself to be.

    When Jesus says, “with the glory I had”, I am merely pointing out who it is that I identify the “I” as, which is the promised Son of Man and the promised Son of God, as that is who I believe Jesus knows himself to be.

    You are trying to prove that John 17:5 teaches that Jesus pre-existed, but your position is circular as you first must assert that he who is speaking identifies himself as pre-existing. You also at the same time have to deny the biblical fact that Jesus did indeed identify himself clearly as the promised Son of Man to whom God had promised He would be a Father to. You then also have to pretend to forget that Jesus preached that the Son of Man was to receive glory and then you must further pretend that such glory had not been with YHVH for this man before the world was. Oh but we can go even further, you then deny that the Son of Man in his resurrected flesh and bones body did in fact enter into the very glory that had been with YHVH for this man before the world was. Okay, maybe you don’t deny all of this you just don’t apply it where it is directly meant to be applied to, which I cannot honestly say that the later is better than the former. Jesus asked for something in John 17:5 and he confirmed that he had received it in Luke 24:26. 

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