John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,981 through 25,000 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #945218
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You CANNOT answer the question with the verse in question; I did answer you concerning the term “scripture” and the only scripture that was available in the first century the Jewish people would reference was the Tanakh (OT) or was Paul referencing some Roman or Greek writing? The fact you are making a HUGE deal of this tells me you’re justifying your answer because you know there isn’t a single passage in the OT that supports what Paul said. Also, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee and would have quoted from where? In nothing you responded with did you tell me where in the OT the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, be buried, and raised from the dead. Nor did you explain why you believe someone delivered this statement to Paul, which would still not be “scripture” as it would presumably be a spoken words and if it was delivered as a written message, we come back to square one and are no further to you answering the question than when we began. Where is this “according to scripture” that Paul stated? What scripture is he quoting from?

    If you believe I have not read what you write, that’s because I don’t; if you would like me to, write normal. Your writing format is one of the main reasons I choose not to respond to you, let alone read all you write. You also keep bringing up this “godman” and I just tune out, this doctrine you speak isn’t supported within scripture and is man made and therefore false. If “godman” is supported, please cite the verses; I haven’t found the term anywhere in the bible. Jesus isn’t God or a god; because if Jesus is a god, it present an issue when it’s stated in Deut 6:4 “The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.” Then again, christianity has the trinity and worship three gods, calling them one. According to some faiths, your salvation is hinged upon believing in the trinity. Guess I’m in trouble…

    #945221
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    Cont.

    I intervened and took the opportunity and replied to your post  to Nick, in order to maintain our discussion focused on 1Corinthians 15:3 hereunder:

    You: “To reject Paul is to reject his Master Jesus Christ”; so Paul saves too?!!?

    ME: Scriptures:
    2Corinthians 12:1 If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed):

    but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

    2 I know a man in CHRIST about fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): 4That he was caught up into paradise,

    and heard SECRET WORDS,
    which it is not granted to MAN  to utter.

    In what sense?

    IT IS NOT GRANTED TO MAN, a clear reference to him, MOST ZEALOUS PHARISEE,

    TO UTTER”?

    Let’s keep on reading the scriptures!

    Galatians 1:11 For I give you to understand, brethren,

    that the gospel which was

    PREACHED BY ME  is not according to man.

    12 FOR NEITHER DID I RECEIVE IT OF MAN, NOR DID I LEARN IT;
     

    but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    13For you have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion: how that, beyond measure, I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it. 14And I made progress in the Jews’ religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more abundantly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 

    15But when it pleased him,

    who SEPARATED me from my mother’s womb,

    HOW AND BY WHAT PROCESS DT, DID GOD SEPARATE PAUL FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB?

    and called me by his grace, 

    16To reveal his Son IN ME,

    HOW DT, DID GOD REVEAL JESUS IN PAUL?

    that I might preach him among the Gentiles,

    immediately I condescended not to flesh and blood. 17Neither went I to Jerusalem, to the apostles who were before me:

    but I went into Arabia,

    WHY AND WHAT DID PAUL EXPERIENCE WHEN HE WENT INTO THE DESERT?

    REVELATIONS, AND THE TRUTH OF THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES? No?

    and again I returned to Damascus.18Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days. 19But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord.

    20Now the things which I write to you, behold, before God,

    I lie not.

    21Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea, which were in Christ: 23But they had heard only: He, who persecuted us in times past, doth now preach the faith which once he impugned:

    24And they glorified God IN ME.

    FIRST PAUL IN GALATIANS 1:16 ABOVE SAID THAT

    GOD REVEALED HIS SON IN HIM,

    WHILE IN THE ABOVE PAUL SAID THAT THE CHURCHES OF JUDEA

    GLORIFIED GOD IN HM!

    PAUL CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD! NO?

    1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men,

    but as it is in TRUTH, THE WORD OF GOD,

    which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

    PAUL IN THE ABOVE CONFIRMED THAT

    HIS WRITING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD JESUS  WITHIN PAUL!

    THUS AS MUCH AS JESUS THE MAN, REVEALED GOD WITHIN HIM WITH HIS GOSPEL TO ISRAEL.

    PAUL REVEALED JESUS, GOD, WITHIN HIM WITH HIS GOSPEL TO THE GENTILES.

    CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is able to establish you,

    according to MY GOSPEL,
    and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

    according to the revelation of the mystery,

    Revealed to him by  Christ Jesus Himself
    which was kept secret from eternity,

    26(Which NOW is made manifest by
     the scriptures of the prophets,
     according to the precept of the eternal God, for the obedience of faith,) known among all nations;

    1Corinthians 14:37 If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual,

    let him know the things that I WRITE TO YOU

    that they are the commandments of the Lord.

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, AGAIN PAUL CONFIRMED  ABOVE THAT HIS PREACHING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!

    THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD DIRECTLY FROM CHRIST JESUS WHEN PAUL WAS IN ARABIA!

    THIS IS ALSO ASSERTED IN

    2Peter 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom GIVEN him,

    DIRECTLY FROM CHRIST!

    hath written to you:

    16As also in all his epistles,
    speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood,

    which the unlearned and unstable wrest,

    as they do also to, OTHER SCRIPTURES

    to their own destruction.

    NOT A SINGLE DOUBT PAUL’S WRITINGS AND EPISTLES IN THE ABOVE ARE CONSIDERED EQUIVALENTLY SCRIPTURES. 

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you FIRST OF ALL,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: 

    IN THE ABOVE DID PAUL REFER TO THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES AS HE THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE AS A FANATIC PHARISEE  BELIEVED,

    ACCORDING TO HIM AFTER JESUS’REVELATIONS,

    DUNG?

    WELL MENTIONED IN

    Philippians 3:7 But the things that were gain to me, the same I have counted loss for Christ. 8Furthermore I count ALL THINGS  to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,

    and count them but as DUNG, that I may gain Christ: 

    Acts 17:10 But the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea. Who, when they were come thither, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness,

    daily searching the scriptures,

    whether these things were so.

    12And many indeed of them believed,
    and of honourable women that were Gentiles, and of men not a few.

     

    Acts  18:28 For with much vigour he convinced the Jews openly,

    shewing by the scriptures,

    that Jesus is the Christ.
    DT. ANSWER PLEASE:

    WHO SAVED THE GENTILES?

    Back to normal posting:

    In the above you have more than enough scriptures related to

    1Corinthians 15:3 not scripture only of the NT, but precisely of the OT, of which you are not only well familiar but also through them you are battling in these forums as you are convinced that Jesus is not the suffering servant, redeemer, died for humans sins, Resurrected on the third day and so on!

    In my posts, I mentioned both Isaiah 42:16, and  Isaiah 53:9,

    TWO SCRIPTURES VITAL ENOUGH TO CONTRADICT your comments in general:

    WHY DIDN’T YOU, IF YOU ARE SO CONVINCED OF YOUR TRUTH

    CONTRADICT ME?

    I SMELL SOMETHING FISHY, I.M AFRAID!!!

    You: But then you quote Isa 42; so the OT is strictly for self-serving purposes.

    In the above case most probably I DID, so you would be in the position to rebut and somehow initiate your so convince TRUTH and say something!

    WHICH YOU NEVER TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO!

    Tell me what is being said in Isa 41 and Isa 43; you can’t, but you will read a small section and tell me you know the context and what it means. Read Isa 40-55 to get the complete picture for the Isa 42 passage you quoted…but you won’t.

    I had to leave you something to encourage you to start the argument!

    BUT YOU NEVER DID?

    WHY DIDN’T YOU?

    GO AHEAD I HAVE LOADED YOU WITH ALL MY POSTS RELATED TO YOUR SO DETERMINE OF THE TRUTH OF

    1 Corinthians 15:3

    I AM WAITING! LET’S YOU AND ME DISCOVER THE TRUTH!

    MR. DESIRETRUTH!

    ARE YOU?

    IF YOU ARE, GO AHEAD; START CONVINCE ME OF THIS TRUTH
    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945222
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: PAUL CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD! NO? (copy and pasted in all your yelling glory)

    Me: Jesus isn’t God, glad you final realize it. Oh wait, it was a question; if Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted, explain the 40 days in the desert when Jesus was tempted. Oh wait, that was God taking on human form and was subject to the temptations of man; but, he would have still been God. If Jesus was God, why did he need God’s spirit (his spirit) to come upon him…do you realize how insane this sounds and the amount of mental gymnastics you need to perform to believe this nonsense? Your “I Believe Button” must be worn out from hitting so often.

    You: HIS (Paul’s) WRITING IS PURE SCRIPTURES!

    Me: So Paul can write whatever he desires and it’s considered “scripture”?!?!? Now I understand how Paul was able to say “according to scripture”, he was quoting himself and where did he previously state the Messiah was to die, be buried, and raised up? You do understand that is pure speculation on your part as there is zero biblical proof to support that statement. What it really sounds like is Paul has elevated himself and establishing himself as the head of christianity.

    You: Romans 16:25 Now to him that is able to establish you, according to MY GOSPEL…

    Me: Paul has his own gospel?!?!

    You: DT. ANSWER PLEASE: WHO SAVED THE GENTILES? (just have to yell…)

    Me: God and God alone; show me in the OT where God said he needed a “helper”, where human sacrifice was okay or required for forgiveness of sin, where we are to worship the Messiah, where the Messiah was to die, be buried, and be raised from the dead. When you answer these burning questions, be direct. I don’t need some convoluted response solidifying your opinions, give me the passages!

    You: In the above you have more than enough scriptures related to 1Corinthians 15:3 not scripture only of the NT, but precisely of the OT

    Me: in nothing you wrote did you specify anything concerning 1Corinthians 15:3; all you gave me was your opinion of who you want Paul to be.

    In Isa 42:16, God is speaking; in Isa 53:9, the nations are speaking. All you have to do is read the words Isaiah penned.

    You: I had to leave you something to encourage you to start the argument! BUT YOU NEVER DID?WHY DIDN’T YOU?

    Me: enlightening, all you want to do is argue and I don’t wish to enter into never ending foolishness. I have better things to do. Then you go on to say (yelling of course) “LET’S YOU AND ME DISCOVER THE TRUTH!” This isn’t what you really want, you want to push your religion and get everyone to believe the same. I have said repeatedly to verify what I’ve said and most don’t or won’t; I know they haven’t because they aren’t asking for clarification on what has been said, double down on what they believe, or just ignore it and move to another topic.
    By the way, in nothing you wrote did you tell me were the passages are in the OT that speak of the Messiah as Paul says is “according to scripture.” According to Cambridge dictionary, scripture is “the holy writings of a religion.” So the letters of Paul’s teachings where just letters sent to different cities of what he believed and didn’t become an official part of the bible until around 400 AD when his letters where canonized and the NT formed and added to the Tanakh.

    #945223
    Nick
    Participant

    You will argue with God outside the gates of salvation till the cows come home DT.

    There are more useful things to do than proving yourself right.

     

    #945224
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth,

    YOU:

    We can continue to debate what we believe is truth and write long explanations trying to prove our side of the “truth”; but the bottom line is what does the OT say about the Messiah; who will he be and what will he do when he arrives, does this match the Messiah of the NT? If you have found a passage to support the NT Messiah in the OT, did you read the entire book?

    I challenge you to begin reading the prophets and listen to what God said through them. Again, it will change your perspective; God’s words are wonderful and beautiful as you allow them penetrate your heart (Isa 55:11).

    Let me know what you discover.”

    ME: With all do respect DesireTruth, you have been asking questions and making statements and I have taken the time to reply to you based directly on such.

    You challenging me to read the OT prophets, sounds to me like once again you are speaking through assumptions that are false. Your challenge is actually quite insulting.

    I grew up in a church very much having the OT as foundation, keeping a strict Sabbath, not celebrating Halloween, Christmas or Easter but rather the Holy Days from Passover to Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) to Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles).  I constantly use OT prophecy pointing out how many on this forum ignore what it teaches and by such hold to false doctrines. I have spoken on this forum at how people on here are following a faith created by pagan “converts”. These pagans, who are responsible for the Nicene Creed, instead of learning the God of the OT and understanding Hebrew thought and applying it to the NT, they inserted their own Greek thought and mythology to the NT. The pagan converts destroyed texts and even murdered people who opposed their creed.

    I was blessed being able to be a stay at home mom while my kids were young and during those years it gave me a lot of time to bible study. One thing I did over the course of about two years was study many of the different Christian faiths, from Catholics, to Baptists, to Protestants, to Mormons, Jehovah Witness, etc.. and see how they each lined up with actual scriptures throughout the bible.  I enjoyed comparing different translations of the bible and discovered Jeff A. Benner’s “Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible” (Hebrew letters, words and roots defined within their ancient cultural context). I am all about studying the entire bible from Hebrew thought and within the ancient cultural context. I do not apply the meaning of words, like hell and soul from Greek thought. I am also aware of Hebrews who went whoring after pagan beliefs and by such have created false beliefs as well, like the Book of Enoch. There are both Jewish faiths and Christian faiths that hold this book as part of the biblical canon, others who don’t but it still holds influence.

    The issue at hand seems to at least be in part, which has occurred on this forum before, is in interpreting certain NT passages exactly how main stream Christian folks do and in seeing the contradiction with the OT the rejection of Jesus as our Messiah then sets in. If their interpretations were true I would have to reject Jesus as well.

    #945225
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    The Holy Scriptures are written by men under the power of the Holy Spirit.

    You will not recognise the words of the Spirit till you are reborn from above.

    Till then the OT and the NT will just be words on paper written by carnal men

    #945226
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi 

    f their interpretations were true I would have to reject Jesus as well.

    Me

    JESUS IS THE ONE BY WHOM GOD CREATED ALL THINGS (John 1:3)

    THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO GRAB.
    THIS WILL INCREASE OUR RESPECT FOR HIM.

    🙏

    #945227
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Will it make you long to be joined with him in the Body Of Christ?

    Psst …It is not entered by joining with the SDA.

    #945228
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Those yet to be reborn from above do not recognise the words as sacred and treat them as worthy only of the carnal analysis of men.

    #945229
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Philip ran up and heard him reading the Prophet Isaiah and said ,

    ” Do you understand what you are reading?”

    And he said

    ”Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?”

    And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

    Now the passage of scripture that he was reading was this,

    ”HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER, AND AS A LAMB BEFORE IT’S SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGEMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION?FOR HIS LIFE S REMOVED FROM THE EARTH”

    The eunuch answered Philip and said,

    ” Please tell me of whom does the prophet say this.?
    Of himself or someone else?”

    then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water, and the Eunuch said,

    ”Look ! Water! What prevents me from being baptised?”

    Acts 8 30f

    So this faithful Jewish man coming back from Jerusalem had all the information but without the Spirit was unable to understand it.As soon as the Spirit filled man explained it he knew it was urgent to be baptised.

     

    #945234
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi and Nick……..Excellent posts.  Our friend DT , has went the way of the Jews who hate the Apostle Paul and his teachings,  but the Apostle Peter  said Paul’s writings were hard to understand for some, but I see his writings as absolutely great as he explains in detail many thing not clearly understood in our scriptures before his time.  By the way Paul was not a Jew, he was a Benjaminite, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews, I am willing to bet DT doesn’t even know what that means, even though he claims to know the Old Testament, and says it is not harmonious with the New,  DT say’s Paul said he was a Pharisee, and yes he did say that is what he,  “WAS” , but he did not say that is what he “IS”,  he was telling us of his “past” not his “present”.  He said he counted all that as dung, in comparison to obtaining the excellence of  knowledge of Christ Jesus.

    To bad our friend Desire Truth doesn’t,  sad!

    peace and love to you and your Jodi and Nick and you to DT……..gene

     

    #945237
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    I just realized that post No.#945194 was not meant for you but for Desiretruth!

    Anyway DT still replied.

    #945238
    Nick
    Participant

    No problem.

    #945239
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean, I didn’t see any response to  my post #945008

    I have included it below with some additions,

    Your doctrine doesn’t add up and I am not seeing explanation from you with scripture, that might provide reconciliation where I could then consider a change to my position.

    Matthew 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matthew 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (New Birth) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory…34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD.

    Before Jesus’s death, he asked God to glorify him with the glory he, THE SON OF MAN, had of God before the world was. 

    Just prior to his death we are not to believe Jesus was asking God for the very glory he preached of concerning himself? You say no and I say that is absurd!

    Jesus preaches of his coming glory, teaching directly that it is glory unto the Son of Man who is a king over a kingdom that had been prepared since the creation of the world.

    What did Jesus say, right after he rose from the dead?

    Luke 24-27: He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    Jesus’s glory that he ENTERED UPON RISING from the dead to which Jesus asked God for just prior to his death, is glory that the Son of Man (the son of David, the son of Jesse and the son of Abraham) would receive according to the prophets. 

    Let’s not forget, God promised to take a son of David and make him into his own Son, make him into a firstborn and a king higher than all the kings and He would settle this Son of Man into His house and His kingdom forever. Then we read in Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Berean, comprehend what the word EXALTED means, ELEVATED and to whom was in fact said to be EXALTED to God’s right hand, THE SON OF MAN. Then stop ignoring that this was in fact God’s word before the world was. With this truth, then of course we are told that the anointed Jesus is he who God created all things by reason of and for. A man is the firstfruits of God’s Spirit, and this man is anointed to execute God’s will that had been declared by God from the beginning, which is to fulfill God becoming ALL IN ALL. With this truth, then of course we are told that all things consist in him and that he is before all things.

    Your response is to interpret John 1:1 to be speaking of Revelation 19:13 where you take verse 13 out of it’s surrounding context, holding onto a doctrine that changes the very glory of our Messiah spoken by the prophets and spoken by Jesus himself.

     1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was WITH the Father and has appeared to us.

    The WORD OF GOD that was declared FROM THE BEGINNING to which appeared to many witnesses, was that of a man raised from the dead given eternal life. In the beginning was this WORD, the Word of Life, and it was WITH God and it is God, God is life, where His Spirit is, there is life. Once again we can reflect on God’s promise He made concerning a son of David, he would give him an eternal throne, he would settle him into His kingdom forever and make him an eternal king a king higher than all other kings.

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of MY NAME. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified… 7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;…23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

    Revelation 19: 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name WRITTEN, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The word of God.14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name WRITTEN, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Revelation 19 is all about the Word of God that had been given prior to us by the prophet Isaiah and elsewhere by other prophets. That Word is about a future king overall the earth.

    There was a NAME WRITTEN, that name is called the word of God and that NAME WRITTEN is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, truly Jesus is a king of kings and lord of lords according to God’s WORD spoken by the prophets, a promise God gave to a Son of Man even before the world began.

    #945240
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    The pre-existence of Jesus Christ is very important.
    God gave us something that He already had and His love for us was shown in that act of giving.
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    If He gave us His Son, He then had to have a Son to give.
    Not just a unique son, but His only begotten Son, the Son of His Bosom, the Son that came out of God.
    This is the very heart of the Gospel.

    God bless

    #945241
    Nick
    Participant

    Thank you Jodi for your prophetic reflections.

    When the events of Isaiah 24 occur then from certain vantage points the stars will appear to fall from the sky.

    #945242
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    Sons of Adam do not preexist.

    This amazing man was conceived in and born of Mary and pleased God by showing it was possible to become clean by faithful fulfilment of the Law, then opened a way through Baptism in his name for all men to become one with him by his blood.

    We can sit with him in the heavenlies and share his earthly kingship.

    #945243
    Nick
    Participant

    Cont,

    of course from other vantage points it would seem that the stars were scrolled up. Rev 6.14

    #945244
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You

    Berean, I didn’t see any response to  my post #945008

    Me

    THE SON OF GOD, before coming down from heaven (Jn6:38)
    before the world was (our world)
    had glory with his own father. (Jn 17:5)

    What did the Son of God do in heaven with his Father BEFORE THE WORLD WAS? (our earth)
    He was the chief of the angels.

    chief of angels:
    Rev.12:7,8
    And there was war in heaven:👉 Michael and his angels👈 fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Michael is one of the names of the Son of God which means “who is like God?”

    Jude 1:9
    But Michael 👉the archangel, 👈 when he argued with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you

    archangel means leader of the angels.

    To my knowledge, I only know one archangel Michael in the Bible: he is the Son of God himself.

    1 Thess.4:16
    [16] For 👉the Lord himself 👈 shall descend from heaven with a shout,👉 with the voice of the archangel, 👈 and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Math.24:29-31

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    [31] And 👉he shall send 👉his angels👈 with 👉 a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, …

    It says: 👉HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS👈

    THIS MEANS HE IS THE LEADER

    JUST AS THE DRAGON (SATAN) IS THE LEADER OF THE FALLEN ANGELS
    , CHRIST (MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL) IS THE CHIEF OF THE HOLY ANGELS.

    OTHER TEXTS

    Rev. 19
    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    [12] His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    [14] And👉 the armies which were in heaven followed him👈 upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    the armies which were in heaven followed him

    They are his angels
    of whom it is said in Matthew 24, that they will gather together his elect…
    (they shall gather together his elect from the four winds)

    The angels of Christ are of course the angels of God, “FOR ALL THAT IS YOURS IS MINE” JESUS SAID TO HIS FATHER.

    And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them
    John 17:10

    to be continued

    God bless

    🙏

     

    #945245
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    You: Hi Carmel.,

    Pretty colours and variety of fonts entertain but distract from what you are trying to say.

    Me: Thanks for your suggestion, but a person physically minded would definitely do that. Look at DT. AS AN EXCUSE, SIMPLY  BECAUSE HE IS NOT IN THE IDEAL SPIRITUAL  MATURITY, WITH EVERY RESPECT TO HIM,  he simply goes MAD by my writing format, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF AND EVEN NOT CALM ENOUGH TO TACKLE A MERE POST, HE IS VERY OBJECTIVE, AND  HE IS NOT READY TO  STAND CRITICISM, AND HONESTLY DISPOSED TO KNOW THE TRUTH, EVEN IF IT IS DIFFICULT TO ACCEPT.

    Just read this from DT.

    ME: PAUL CONFIRMED THAT JESUS IS GOD! NO? (copy and pasted in all your yelling glory)

    DT: Jesus isn’t God, glad you final realize it. Oh wait, it was a question;

    NOTICE HE DIDN’T EVEN ANSWER PROPERLY IN RELATION TO MY QUESTION! TO THE EXTENT THAT WITH HIS COMMENT HE MADE IT EVIDENT THAT PAUL MEANT SO!

    HE SIMPLY CONFIRMED THAT HIS HEART IS NOT IDEAL TO DISCUSS JESUS’ PROCESS AND TASK, AS

    THE REDEEMER!

    HE BECOMES FURIOUS EVEN BY HIS NAME!

    I HAVE A FEELING THAT HE WILL SOON ABANDON THESE FORUMS!

    On the other hand from my understanding side point of view, as you said :

    PRETTY COLOURS AND VARIETY OF FONTS alright,  but if a  person HONESTLY LOVES Jesus, he tackles  ALL things NO MATTER WHAT, for the love of Jesus,  SINCE IT IS AFTER THE TRUTH, TOTALLY RELYING ON JESUS’ TRUTH AND NOTHING WOULD HINDER HIM, IN FACT IT WOULD GIVE HIM EVEN MORE LIGHT TO DISCOVER THE TRUTH.JESUS!!!

    2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency may be of the power of God, and not of us.

    8In all things we suffer tribulation, but are not distressed; we are straitened, but are not destitute; 9We suffer persecution, but are not forsaken; we are cast down, but we perish not:

    10Always bearing about in our body the mortification of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodies.

    11 For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake; that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

    18 While we look not at the things which are seen,

    but at the things which are not seen.

    For the things which are seen, are temporal;

    but the things which are not seen, are eternal.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

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