John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #945194
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    You: Jesus is intentionally speaking in a confusing manner thru the use of parables so those who came to listen to him wouldn’t understand so they wouldn’t turn and have their sins forgiven. Tell me how you interpret this in a positive manner?!? In essence Jesus is hiding the Kingdom of God from the people and only the select chosen few get to have access. This is who we are to “worship” and “believe and trust in” for our salvation?

    First and foremost, keep in mind that you have at least four of my post that you never replied for a reason only you know!

    Are ready to reply any of them, or are you simply letting them accumulate?

    I believe that this post also would be simply unanswered!!!

    Let’s start:

    You: Now explain Jesus’ words in Mark 4:11 He said to them,

    “To you is given the mystery of the Kingdom of God,

    but to those who are outside,

    all things are done in parables,

    12 that ‘seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest perhaps they should turn again, and their sins should be forgiven them.’”

    You: Jesus is intentionally speaking in a confusing manner through the use of parables so those who came to listen to him wouldn’t understand so they wouldn’t turn and have their sins forgiven. 

    With your declaration, you simply confirmed that you are more than stagnated and still live LIKE THE JEWS  OF THE OT WERE, WITH EVERY RESPECT, I’M AFRAID!

    SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    You: Tell me how you interpret this in a positive manner?!? 

    IT’S NO USE I’M AFRAID THAT YOU ASK QUESTIONS MORE RELATED TO THE NT.

    I MEAN THE NEW ETERNAL COVENANT,

    THAN THE OT, WHICH IS IN EVERY SENSE

    OBSOLETE, SINCE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS AS

    THE REDEEMER,

    AND HIS UNIQUE SPIRITUAL PROCESS!

    BY WHICH PROCESS JESUS SPIRITUALIZED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WHILE THEY ARE STILL LIVING ON EARTH? WELL CLEAR IN

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;

    I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    2He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench:

    he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

    4He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    5Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    6I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    8I am the LORD: that is my name:

    and my glory will I not give to another,

    neither my praise to graven images.

    9Behold, the former things are come to pass,

    (OBSOLETE!)

    and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

    (THROUGH JESUS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD ON EARTH)

    ATTENTION PLEASE:

    10Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.11Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. 12Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

    13The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.14I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.15I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.

    16And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known:

    I will make darkness light before them,

    and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

    17They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

    Israel is Deaf and Blind 18Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

    YOU DT IS ONE OF THE ABOVE WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    19Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD’S servant?

    20Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

    THE ABOVE IS A REFERENCE TO YOU DT WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    21The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. 22But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

    23Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

    24Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned?

    for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

    25Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, (and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart. ( Mark 13-17)

    it is not the time to discuss Isaiah 42 above, but THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE, ESPECIALLY THE ENLARGED TYPE, FURNISHES YOU WITH THE ANSWER YOU ARE ASKING AND SEARCHING  FOR!

    To my first question :

    Read hereunder 

    but to those who are outside,

    Please tell me :

    WHO ARE THESE PARTICULAR ONES THAT ARE OUTSIDE, OF WHOM THE APOSTLES WERE PART?

    You: Jesus is intentionally speaking in a confusing manner through the use of parables so those who came to listen to him wouldn’t understand

    so they wouldn’t turn and have their sins forgiven. 

    Isaiah 42: 16And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known:

    THIS SCRIPTURE FROM ISAIAH ABOVE SIMPLY DECLARES THE TRUTH BY WHICH TRUTH, THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU DECLARED ABOVE OCCURRED ON THE CROSS!

    THUS THEY NEVER REQUIRED 

    the mystery of the Kingdom of God,

    WHICH ONLY WAS FOR THE APOSTLES TO RULE ON EARTH IN JESUS’ CHURCH, AS SERVANTS OF JESUS CHRIST AND HIS SALVATION!

    SINCE THEY WERE BLIND AND SUBJECT TO SATAN, THEY ONLY DESPERATELY REQUIRED

    JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS, NOT ONLY  TO BE SAVED, 

    BUT ALSO THE ERADICATE SATAN, THE AUTHOR, THE FATHER,  AND FOUNDATION OF SIN ONCE AND FOR ALL!

     

    More to come:

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945195
    Nick
    Participant

     

    Hi Carmel.,

    Pretty colours and variety of fonts entertain but distract from what you are trying to say.

    #945196
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    God is in Christ Jesus.

    God was in Christ reconciling the word to Himself.

    As he said “the Father and I are one”

     

    So God will rule through him when the lord Jesus returns.Will  there be faith on earth then or will thieves and robbers have stolen it?

    #945197
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi C,

    Perhaps you were quoting DT.?

    #945198
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick, I agree, for a person like you perhaps I’m afraid. For others like DT most probably it would be more to masticate I hope.

    #945199
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel

    You: “First and foremost, keep in mind that you have at least four of my post that you never replied for a reason only you know!”
    Me: How many questions have you left unanswered for me…tears of rivers flowing.

    Your response to Mark 4:11-12: “With your declaration, you simply confirmed that you are more than stagnated and still live LIKE THE JEWS OF THE OT WERE, WITH EVERY RESPECT, I’M AFRAID!”
    Me: did you notice how you failed to answer the question and responded with platitudes; this is the same answer given to all who question the teachings of christianity.

    You: “I MEAN THE NEW ETERNAL COVENANT, THAN THE OT, WHICH IS IN EVERY SENSE OBSOLETE”
    Me: You believe the OT is “OBSOLETE”, thus making the NT the only book worthy of study and why your religion has “spiritualized” everything about it. If the OT is obsolete, why have it anymore? Why is anything quoted out of it in the NT? Why didn’t the catholic church just get rid of it when the bible was canonized?

    Why don’t I respond to you, because you believe God’s words through HIS prophets are irrelevant. But then you quote Isa 42; so the OT is strictly for self serving purposes. Tell me what is being said in Isa 41 and Isa 43; you can’t, but you will read a small section and tell me you know the context and what it means. Read Isa 40-55 to get the complete picture for the Isa 42 passage you quoted…but you won’t.

    You: “19Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD’S servant? 20Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
    THE ABOVE IS A REFERENCE TO YOU DT WITH EVERY RESPECT!”
    Me: I thought the “servant” spoken above was Jesus, at least that’s what I’m told; so who is the servant here and who is the “servant” that is spoken of in other places in Isaiah?

    You: “the mystery of the Kingdom of God, WHICH ONLY WAS FOR THE APOSTLES TO RULE ON EARTH IN JESUS’ CHURCH”
    Me: Please remember Jesus had to explain all these parables to his disciples, so not only did Jesus confuse the masses he was speaking to, but his disciples too. So much for having been given the “mystery of the kingdom of God.”

    For the record, still waiting for the OT reference to I Cor 15:3-4

    #945200
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth………Isa 6;9…..And he said , “Go and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; see you indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and convert, and be healed.

    God said also only a tenth in it shall return, and shall be eaten: “as a tree, as an oak, whose substance is “IN” them, when they cast their leaves; so the “holy Seed” shall be the substance thereof”.

    The Old Testament does agree with the New Testament,  it appears after all . The parable of the sower Jesus gave does  agree with the Old Testament.

    peace and love to you ad yours Desire Truth………..gene

     

     

    #945201
    Berean
    Participant

    @desire Truth

    Compare what Jesus said with Isaiah and Jeremy.
    Isn’t that surprising?

    Mark 4:12
    That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

    Isaiah 6
    [9]And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    [10] Make the heart of these people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    Jeremiah 5:21
    Listen to this, you foolish people, who have no heart! They have eyes and do not see, They have ears and do not hear.

    🙏

    #945202
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Jesus sees himself in a similar prophetic role [to Isaiah], meeting a similar unresponsiveness in those of his hearers who are not disciples, and it is this situation which makes parables an appropriate method of teaching […] The spiritual dullness was the situation within which Jesus taught rather than itself the product of his teaching […] The emphasis is not on either the purpose or result of Jesus’ speaking in parables, but rather on the existing situation within which it took place.’ (R.T. France, Matthew, p222-223)

    #945203
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    It is good to see you recognise Jesus as the Son of God but now you want to divide the Son from his God. Of course the SONS OF GOD are led by the Spirit of God. So your attacks on the Son are also against the Spirit of God. and God Himself.

    The FEAR OF GOD is the beginning of wisdom so better sharpen up.

     

     

     

    .

     

    #945204
    carmel
    Participant

    H Desiretruth,

    You: You believe the OT is “OBSOLETE”, thus making the NT the only book worthy of study

    Me: Your reasoning doesn’t make sense at all!

    Don’t students study old respective literature, in order to acquire a degree?

    WE MUST STUDY THE OT NOT TO LIVE BY IT, BUT IN ORDER TO BE COMPARED WITH THE NEW, AND REVEAL THE TRUTH!

    HIDDEN IN ALL THE PROPHECIES EVEN UP TO THIS DAY.

    JUST READ HEREUNDER ONE EXAMPLE:

    You: Are you saying the creator of the universe could no longer handle HIS creation and

    needed help!?

    Attention please:

    MAN IN THE IMAGE and

    LIKENESS OF GOD?????????????

    Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said:

    It is not good for man to be alone:

    IT IS NOT GOOD FOR MAN IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD TO BE ALONE!

    WASN’T GOD ALONE BEFORE CREATION?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    let us make him a

    HELP like unto

    HIMSELF. 

    DID YOU SEE THE ABOVE HIDDEN PROPHECY?

    DIDN’T  GOD NEED HIS SON TO BE HIS HELPER AS A MAN SINCE IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO BECOME A MAN? OR ELSE WITH HIS PRESENCE HE WOULD HAVE ERADICATED THIS SATANIC WORLD, THE FACT THAT GOD IN THE VERY BEGINNING, FIRST AND FOREMOST,

    ESTABLISHED HIS SON AS ETERNAL LIFE, AND THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN

    GOD AND CREATION?

    NOW TO THIS ONE:

    8I am the LORD: that is my name:

    and my glory will I not give to another,

    EXCEPT TO THE ONLY UNIQUE MAN:

    THE GENUINE MAN IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD IN EVERY SENSE 

    HIS SON PRECISELY

    ON THE CROSS WHO DIED FOR THE LOVE AND SAKE OF HIS FATHER!

    John10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me:

    because I lay down my life,

    that I may take it again.

    IMMEDIATELY ON THE CROSS, John 13:31,32 ON HIS LAST DAY ON EARTH!

    John6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing;

    but should raise it up again in the last day.

    You; If the OT is obsolete, why have it anymore? Why is anything quoted out of it in the NT? Why didn’t the catholic church just get rid of it when the bible was canonized?

    VERY SIMPLE!!

    ASK YOURSELF:

    AREN’T WE STILL LIVING IN THIS MORTAL FLESH AND BLOOD BODY?

    THE OT THROUGH SEX IS THE FOUNDATION OF SUCH BODY NO?

    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT HUMANS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST MUST, AND  HAVE THE OPTION  TO DESTROY THIS BODY BEFORE THIS BODY DESTROYS THEIR SOUL!

    IN THE SAME WAY IT OCCURRED IN THE OT.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    IN THE OT HUMANS COULD NOT EVEN SMELL HEAVEN NEVER MIND ENTER IT, THEY DIDN’T HAVE AN OPTION AT ALL!

    ONE WAY DOWN BACK TO FIRE, FROM WHERE THEY CAME IN THE CENTRE OF THE WORLD. Zechariah3:2

    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto all: I indeed baptize you with water; but there shall come one mightier that I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to loose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn;

    but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

     

    Isaiah42:21The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake;

    he will magnify the law, and make it honorable.

    CAN YOU SEE THE TRUTH?

    JUST EXPLAIN HOW DT.

    DEFINITELY NOT AS IT STANDS WITHIN THE OLD JEWISH BELIEF!

    READ PLEASE AND DECIPHER THE TRUTH!

    22But this is a people robbed and spoiled;

    they are all of them snared in holes,

    WHERE???

    and they are hidden in prison houses:

    WHICH PRISON HOUSED?

    they are for a prey,….

    POOR HUMANITY OF THE OT. 

    DON’T TELL ME THAT THEY ARE NOT OBSOLETE.

    Philippians 3:7 But the things that were gain to me,

    the same I have counted loss for Christ.

     8Furthermore I count all things to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,

    and count them but as DUNG, that I may gain Christ: 

     

    Isaiah 42:9Behold, the former things are come to pass,

    (THE OT IS OBSOLETE FOR SALVATION!)

    and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

    (THROUGH JESUS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD ON EARTH)

    You: Me: Please remember Jesus had to explain all these parables to his disciples, so not only did Jesus confuse the masses he was speaking to, but his disciples too. 

    And when he was alone, the twelve that were with him asked him the parable. 

    DT. NOT THE DISCIPLES AT ALL BUT THE TWELVE, HIS APOSTLES, ASKED JESUS THAT PARTICULAR QUESTION!

    NOW I MADE IT CLEAR TO YOU WHY JESUS SAID SO!

    READ AGAIN PLEASE:

    11And he said to them: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without,

    all things are done in parables:

    …..but to those who are outside,

    Please tell me :

    WHO ARE THESE PARTICULAR ONES THAT ARE OUTSIDE, 

    OF WHOM THE APOSTLES WERE PART?

    THIS IS REFERRED TO IN

    John 4:38 I have sent you to reap that in which you did not labour:

    others have laboured,

    and you have entered into their labours.

    THE OUTSIDE ONES ARE MENTIONED IN THE ABOVE  WORDS BY JESUS AS

    “OTHERS HAVE LABOURED!”

    NOW I ASKED YOU

    WHO ARE THESE PARTICULAR ONES THAT ARE OUTSIDE, 

    OF WHOM THE APOSTLES WERE PART?

    I TELL YOU:

    THE HOLY GHOST, IN THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN SOUL, ZION, IN JESUS THE SON OF GOD,  and

    “THE WORD”, IN THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN BODY, JERUSALEM, IN JESUS THE SON OF MAN

    LET’S CARRY ON FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH!

    You: Jesus is intentionally speaking in a confusing manner through the use of parables so those who came to listen to him wouldn’t understand

    so they wouldn’t turn and have their sins forgiven. 

    NOW READ Isaiah hereunder:

    Isaiah 42: 16And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not;

    I will lead them in paths that they have not known:

    THIS SCRIPTURE FROM ISAIAH ABOVE SIMPLY DECLARES THE TRUTH BY WHICH TRUTH,

    THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU DECLARED ABOVE OCCURRED ON THE CROSS!

    THUS ATTENTION DT PLEASE

    THEY NEVER REQUIRED 

    the mystery of the Kingdom of God,

    WHICH ONLY WAS FOR THE APOSTLES TO RULE ON EARTH IN JESUS’ CHURCH, AS SERVANTS OF JESUS CHRIST AND HIS SALVATION!

     THEY WERE BLIND AND SUBJECT TO SATAN,

    THEY ONLY DESPERATELY REQUIRED

    JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS, NOT ONLY  TO BE SAVED, 

    BUT ALSO THE ERADICATE SATAN, THE AUTHOR, THE FATHER,  AND FOUNDATION OF SIN ONCE AND FOR ALL!

    HUMANITY IN GENERAL ARE ALL SAVED ON THE CROSS.

    ONLY THE APOSTLES WERE REQUIRED TO KNOW ALL THINGS  REGARDING THE MYSTERY  OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND SALVATION, IN ORDER TO REMAIN ON EARTH PREACHING JESUS CHRIST AND HIS SALVATION PROCESS WITHIN THE CHURCH.

    You: For the record, still waiting for the OT reference to I Cor 15:3-4

    Me: In a way I did refer to it, three times in the mentioned posts but for no use, as you remained silent.

    But I will again have a go with the hope that you do what you said you are not ready to do,

    I mean, when you said that you had no time to decipher my writing.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945205
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You can look at the OT and use it for a source of review and treat it like a fine piece of literature, but if you consider it “obsolete” what good is it to you? Why look at it; are you in need of a history lesson or as I said before, is the purpose of the OT for self service?

    If god is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, HIS words are relevant in any time period and will never expire. As far as the rest of what you wrote, I didn’t waste my time because it’s to hard to follow (different font sizes, color changes, all caps, broken sentences, and none paragraph format). Grammar is your friend, become acquainted! If all this formatting is to show how good you are at HTML, congratulations! You’re the best! You win the internet today and tomorrow!

    #945206
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You: As far as the rest of what you wrote, I didn’t waste my time because it’s to hard to follow

    (different font sizes,

    color changes,

    all caps,

    broken sentences,

    and none paragraph format).

    Grammar is your friend,

    Me: ARE WE STUDENTS SUBJECT TO GRAMMAR OR ELSE WE DON’T PASS THE EXAM?

    OR  CHATTING!

    DURING CHATTING YOU EXPRESS YOURSELF IN DIFFERENT  COLURFULL WAYS AND MANNERS ESPECIALLY USING EVEN YOUR HANDS DESPITE THEY ARE SILENT, IN ORDER TO MAKE YOURSELF CLEAR AND TRUE. NO?

    EXAMPLE:

    IF SOMEBODY IS TALKING TO YOU AND EXPLAINING TO YOU A VERY DISAPPOINTING EVENT THAT OCCURRED TO HIM, WOULDN’T  YOU ONLY JUST SAY  SOMETHING LIKE

    SH…T!!! OR HELL!!! IF NOT ALSO SOMETHING MORE DIRTY?

    I BELIEVE YOU HAVE TO ADAPT YOURSELF TO THESE EXPRESSIONS IF YOU ARE MORE CHATTING THAN WRITING A COMPOSITION, OR A STORY!

     

    WHAT IS THE REASON THAT WE HAVE ALL THOSE OPTIONS FOR?

    MIGHT AS WELL BE REMOVED TOTALLY!

    NOW LET’S SEE HOW HONEST YOU ARE!

    HEREUNDER IS THE SAME POST!

    ENJOY YOUR SYSTEM OF CHATTING!

    You: You believe the OT is “OBSOLETE”, thus making the NT the only book worthy of study

    Me: Your reasoning doesn’t make sense at all!

    Don’t students study old respective literature, in order to acquire a degree?

    WE MUST STUDY THE OT NOT TO LIVE BY IT, BUT IN ORDER TO BE COMPARED WITH THE NEW, AND REVEAL THE TRUTH!

    HIDDEN IN ALL THE PROPHECIES EVEN UP TO THIS DAY.

    JUST READ HEREUNDER ONE EXAMPLE:

    You: Are you saying the creator of the universe could no longer handle HIS creation and

    needed help!?
    Attention please:

    MAN IN THE IMAGE and

    LIKENESS OF GOD?????????????

    Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said:

    It is not good for man to be alone:

    IT IS NOT GOOD FOR MAN IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD TO BE ALONE!

    WASN’T GOD ALONE BEFORE CREATION?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    let us make him a

    HELP like unto

    HIMSELF.

    DID YOU SEE THE ABOVE HIDDEN PROPHECY?

    DIDN’T  GOD NEED HIS SON TO BE HIS HELPER AS A MAN SINCE IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO BECOME A MAN? OR ELSE WITH HIS PRESENCE HE WOULD HAVE ERADICATED THIS SATANIC WORLD, THE FACT THAT GOD IN THE VERY BEGINNING, FIRST AND FOREMOST,

    ESTABLISHED HIS SON AS ETERNAL LIFE, AND THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN

    GOD AND CREATION?

    NOW TO THIS ONE:

    8I am the LORD: that is my name:

    and my glory will I not give to another,

    EXCEPT TO THE ONLY UNIQUE MAN:

    THE GENUINE MAN IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD IN EVERY SENSE, HIS SON PRECISELY

    ON THE CROSS WHO DIED FOR THE LOVE AND SAKE OF HIS FATHER!

    John10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me:

    because I lay down my life,
    that I may take it again.

    IMMEDIATELY ON THE CROSS, John 13:31,32 ON HIS LAST DAY ON EARTH!

    John6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing;

    but should raise it up again in the last day.

    You; If the OT is obsolete, why have it anymore? Why is anything quoted out of it in the NT? Why didn’t the catholic church just get rid of it when the bible was canonized?

    VERY SIMPLE!!

    ASK YOURSELF:

    AREN’T WE STILL LIVING IN THIS MORTAL FLESH AND BLOOD BODY?

    THE OT THROUGH SEX IS THE FOUNDATION OF SUCH BODY NO?

    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT HUMANS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST MUST, AND  HAVE THE OPTION  TO DESTROY THIS BODY BEFORE THIS BODY DESTROYS THEIR SOUL!

    IN THE SAME WAY IT OCCURRED IN THE OT.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    IN THE OT HUMANS COULD NOT EVEN SMELL HEAVEN NEVER MIND ENTER IT, THEY DIDN’T HAVE AN OPTION AT ALL!

    ONE WAY DOWN BACK TO FIRE, FROM WHERE THEY CAME IN THE CENTRE OF THE WORLD. Zechariah3:2

    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto all: I indeed baptize you with water; but there shall come one mightier that I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to loose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn;

    but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

     

    Isaiah42:21The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake;

    he will magnify the law, and make it honorable.
    CAN YOU SEE THE TRUTH?

    JUST EXPLAIN HOW DT.

    DEFINITELY NOT AS IT STANDS WITHIN THE OLD JEWISH BELIEF!

    READ PLEASE AND DECIPHER THE TRUTH!

    22But this is a people robbed and spoiled;

    they are all of them snared in holes,

    WHERE???

    and they are hidden in prison houses:

    WHICH PRISON HOUSES?

    they are for a prey,….

    POOR HUMANITY OF THE OT.

    DON’T TELL ME THAT THEY ARE NOT OBSOLETE.

    Philippians 3:7 But the things that were gain to me,

    the same I have counted loss for Christ.
    8Furthermore I count all things to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,

    and count them but as DUNG, that I may gain Christ:
    Isaiah 42:9Behold, the former things are come to pass,

    (THE OT IS OBSOLETE FOR SALVATION!)

    and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

    (THROUGH JESUS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD ON EARTH)

    You: Me: Please remember Jesus had to explain all these parables to his disciples, so not only did Jesus confuse the masses he was speaking to, but his disciples too.

    And when he was alone, the twelve that were with him asked him the parable.

    DT. NOT THE DISCIPLES AT ALL BUT THE TWELVE, HIS APOSTLES, ASKED JESUS THAT PARTICULAR QUESTION!

    NOW I MADE IT CLEAR TO YOU WHY JESUS SAID SO!

    READ AGAIN PLEASE:

    11And he said to them: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without,

    all things are done in parables:

    …..but to those who are outside,

    Please tell me :

    WHO ARE THESE PARTICULAR ONES THAT ARE OUTSIDE,

    OF WHOM THE APOSTLES WERE PART?

    THIS IS REFERRED TO IN

    John 4:38 I have sent you to reap that in which you did not labour:

    others have laboured,
    and you have entered into their labours.

    THE OUTSIDE ONES ARE MENTIONED IN THE ABOVE  WORDS BY JESUS AS

    “OTHERS HAVE LABOURED!”

    NOW I ASKED YOU

    WHO ARE THESE PARTICULAR ONES THAT ARE OUTSIDE,

    OF WHOM THE APOSTLES WERE PART?

    I TELL YOU:

    THE HOLY GHOST, IN THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN SOUL, ZION, IN JESUS THE SON OF GOD,  and

    “THE WORD”, IN THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN BODY, JERUSALEM, IN JESUS THE SON OF MAN

    LET’S CARRY ON FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH!

    You: Jesus is intentionally speaking in a confusing manner through the use of parables so those who came to listen to him wouldn’t understand

    so they wouldn’t turn and have their sins forgiven.

    NOW READ Isaiah hereunder:

    Isaiah 42: 16And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not;

    I will lead them in paths that they have not known:

    THIS SCRIPTURE FROM ISAIAH ABOVE SIMPLY DECLARES THE TRUTH BY WHICH TRUTH,

    THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU DECLARED ABOVE OCCURRED ON THE CROSS!

    THUS ATTENTION DT PLEASE

    THEY NEVER REQUIRED

    the mystery of the Kingdom of God,
    WHICH ONLY WAS FOR THE APOSTLES TO RULE ON EARTH IN JESUS’ CHURCH, AS SERVANTS OF JESUS CHRIST AND HIS SALVATION!

    THEY WERE BLIND AND SUBJECT TO SATAN,

    THEY ONLY DESPERATELY REQUIRED

    JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS, NOT ONLY  TO BE SAVED,
    BUT ALSO THE ERADICATE SATAN, THE AUTHOR, THE FATHER,  AND FOUNDATION OF SIN ONCE AND FOR ALL!

    HUMANITY IN GENERAL ARE ALL SAVED ON THE CROSS.

    ONLY THE APOSTLES WERE REQUIRED TO KNOW ALL THINGS  REGARDING THE MYSTERY  OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND SALVATION, IN ORDER TO REMAIN ON EARTH PREACHING JESUS CHRIST AND HIS SALVATION PROCESS WITHIN THE CHURCH.

    You: For the record, still waiting for the OT reference to I Cor 15:3-4

    Me: In a way I did refer to it, three times in the mentioned posts but for no use, as you remained silent.

    But I will again have a go with the hope that you do what you said you are not ready to do,

    I mean, when you said that you had no time to decipher my writing.

    I AM WAITING FOR YOUR NEW EXCUSES.

    Now I tell you a story and masticate it:

    A fox spotted a cluster of grapes, he jumped, jumped, and jumped till he became breathless, then he said: ATTENTION PLEASE!

    Well, that cluster after all it’s not good to eat is still sour!

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945208
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….Why are you even trying to create a difference between the Old Testament and the New, in the first place?,  shouldn’t you be trying to show how they agree with each other? From what Spirit is that coming from brother, it’s not from the SPIRIT OF TRUTH,  because it is creating division in the body of Christ .
    Repent and get back to the “sheep fold”, Where you belong.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

     

    #945209
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    You: I think the Father and son are conflicted…

    Me: You are doing the same thing that the Freemasons are doing.
    They love to separate the Father from the Son because they know
    that we need them both.
    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee
    the only true God, 👉AND👈 Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Stop separating the Father from the Son!

    #945212
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Your shouting style speaks of a need to be seen as a teacher and a need to be in control.

    hmmm

    #945214
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You: For the record, still waiting for the OT reference to I Cor 15:3-4

    ME: As  I mentioned in my last post, hereunder is the first post in order to initiate our discussion, in relation to 1Cor. 15:3-4, and I asked my first question.

    Post #944001  JULY 17, 2023

    You: ……What more can I say before you enlighten us with you vast “wisdom” that you claim comes from above?

    To which I must ask, where in the OT does it state the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind? Why won’t you answer that question?

    ME: FIRST AND FOREMOST, PROPHECIES ARE NEVER SPECIFICALLY CLEAR WORD FOR WORD!

    NOW, SINCE YOU REJECTED WHATEVER OTHERS HAVE SAID, WHAT’S THE USE OF WASTING OUR TIME REPEATING?

    Nevertheless, here is

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: 

    AND THIS IS MY QUESTION:

    FROM WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?

    After the above post, I kept on posting the same question for no use, and hereunder are all the posts that followed:

    Post #944059

    Me: just in case you forgot or you missed my Post:

    Here is

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures:

    AND THIS IS MY QUESTION:

    FROM WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?

     

    Post #944083

    Me: Here is

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures:

    I asked you:

    FROM WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?

    Paul CONFIRMED above that what he delivered,

    HE ALSO RECEIVED!

    I ASK YOU AGAIN:

    WHO FURNISHED PAUL WITH WHAT HE DELIVERED?

     

    Post. 944095

    Me: WHAT CONVINCED YOU THAT PAUL REFERRED TO THE OLD TESTAMENT?

    You: The only SCRIPTURE available to them in the 1st century was the tanach, the Jewish writings that we today call the “old testament.”

    Me: Paul used the word “SCRIPTURE”.

    It is not enough proof that he was definitely referring to the Old Testament!

    Since the word SCRIPTURE is used, it refers to something written. There is no example of oral tradition being called Scripture.

    The word Scripture, when used in the New Testament, always refers to something written.

    THUS Paul referred to something WRITTEN NOT TO THE OLD TESTAMENT.

    Now, Read again what I posted please:

    Me: Here is

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,

    which I also received:
    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: 

    I asked you:

    FROM WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?

    Paul CONFIRMED above that what he delivered,

    HE ALSO RECEIVED!

    I ASK YOU AGAIN:

    WHO FURNISHED PAUL WITH WHAT HE DELIVERED AND SAID PRECISELY

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures?

    I REPEAT: THE ABOVE DIDN’T ORIGINATE FROM PAUL BUT FROM SOMEONE ELSE!

    WHO IS THIS SOMEONE ELSE?
    AGAIN:

    I leave you to PONDER on the SCRIPTURES hereunder:

     

    Galatians 1:11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was

    preached by me is not according to man.

    12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it;

     but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
    2Corinthians 12: If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed): 

    but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): 4That he was caught up into paradise,

    and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter.

    In what sense “It is NOT GRANTED TO MAN, PAUL,

    TO UTTER?”

    Cont.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #945215
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    Cont.

    Now allow me to make things clear:

    In your last post#944084, you opted to deviate from our discussion,

    WHY MAY I ASK?

    WERE YOU IN ANY WAY PREOCCUPIED TO REMAIN FOCUSSED ON 1Corinthians 15:3

    Now hereunder is your deviation:

    You: Now explain this:

    John 3:14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;”

    Num 21:9 “Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.”

     
    II King 18:14 “He (Hezekiah) removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.”

    Jesus states he must be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness that Moses made so the people could look upon it and be healed if they had been bitten by a snake. Then under king Hezekiah this bronze snake is destroyed because the people of Israel had created an idol and were burning incense to it.

    This seems to be an odd comparison for Jesus to make concerning himself when the object was destroyed because of idol worship

    I am only going to post what is justified in relation to your comment of the last verse:

    Isaiah 42:16 And I will lead the blind into

    THE WAY WHICH THEY KNOW NOT:

     and in the paths

    WHICH THEY WERE IGNORANT OF I WILL MAKE THEM WALK:

    HOW GOD MAKES THEM WALK THE PATHS WHICH THEY

    WERE IGNORANT OF? Here it comes:

    I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT
    BEFORE THEM,

    and crooked things straight:
    these things have I done to them, and have not forsaken them.

    NOW WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT THE ABOVE ESPECIALLY

    “I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT”
    IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS’ GLORY ON HIS DEATH,

    WHERE DARKNESS WAS JESUS. Isaiah 53:9,

    IN FRONT OF THE GENTILES!

    YOU; This seems to be an odd comparison for Jesus

    to make concerning himself
    when the object was destroyed
    because of idol worship

    Me: Here it comes again to ponder:

    NOW WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT THE ABOVE ESPECIALLY

    “I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT”
    IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS’ GLORY ON HIS DEATH,
    WHERE DARKNESS WAS JESUS. Isaiah 53:9,
    I will make it AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL TO YOU AND ASK YOU!

    FOR YOU, CARNALLY MINDED PERSON, IN EVERY RESPECT:

    IS IT STILL ODD FOR JESUS TO COMPARE HIMSELF WITH

    SOMETHING WHICH WAS DESTROYED!
    ANOTHER QUESTION!

    WHO IN ACTUAL FACT WAS DESTROYED ON THE CROSS!

    THE SERPENT, SATAN?

    JESUS’BODY? OR

    BOTH JESUS’BODY AND SATAN PRECISELY LOCKED WITHIN JESUS’ DEAD BODY!

    BOTH DARKNESS and 
    THE SERPENT!
    WHILE JESUS WAS IN HIS FULL GLORY AS

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN! John13:31,32, 

    You: Am I only suppose to look at the “on a pole” portion of the story

    and ignore the rest?

    Me: YOU DON’T EVEN UNDERSTAND

    The “ON A POLE” PORTION 
    HOW ON EARTH WOULD YOU BE IN THE POSITION TO UNDERSTAND THE

    REST?
    NEVER MIND IGNORE!

    You: I have no doubts one will be able to explain this away; however, what can’t be ignored is the comparison Jesus used was eventually destroyed

    2Corinthians 12:9 And he said to me:

    My grace is sufficient for thee;

    for power is made perfect in infirmity.
    Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10For which cause I please myself in my infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ.

    For when I am weak, then am I powerful.
    You: because of idol worship, worship of an object that took the focus off

    the one true God, the creator of heaven and earth.

     

    Me: NOW WHAT WAS THE FOCUS WHEN JESUS WAS  DEAD ON THE

    POLE?
    I TELL YOU AGAIN WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT

    IT’S YOUR PIGEON!
    THE FOCUS WAS ON

    THE ONLY TRUE GODMAN ON EARTH,
    THE RECREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH,

    AND THE FATHER OF IT! ATTENTION PLEASE:

    John20:17Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me,

    for I am not yet ascended to (THE GLORY OF) my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to

    (THE GLORY OF) my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.
    BY HIS OWN BLOOD FOR THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER!
    AS THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO DIE!

     

    NO JESUS NO GOD!
    NO GOD NO JESUS!

    Cont.

    Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #945216
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Having proclaimed yourself as a man who is only being faithful to God and to the detail of the OT but are unashamedly attacking God and His Son.

    the mask is off.

    thank you.

    #945217
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Have you yet been united with Jesus Christ by baptism in his name?

    It is the only issue you should concern yourself with.

    All your intellectual gymnastics would seem to be uselessness

    and you would realise that your GODMAN is a mirage.

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