John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,901 through 24,920 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #945081
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Your favourite book.

    Heb 1

    God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son…

    1 Jn 5.12

    He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life.

    You need the Son.

    This is My Son. Listen to him.

    So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2 Peter.1.19

    I, Jesus, have sent my Angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.

    Rev 22.16

    enjoy

     

    #945082
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Not sure where you’re quoting (references are key) when you said “God said to them He would send a sword after ten wherever they went.” The closest I could find was in Jeremiah 24; but, God was speaking of destroying King Zedekiah and those left in Judah after being exiled to Babylon. God wasn’t speaking of destroying all of Israel since HE said HE was going to restore them.

    Absolutely the Jewish nation was scattered throughout the world, not sure where you are going with that either since this is a known fact. We also read in Isaiah God says he’s going to call his people back from the ends of the earth to the land HE gave them.

    Your next statement makes no sense and I emphatically disagree with it: “if it weren’t for the UNITED STATES, a Israelite Nation, they would have been exterminated by now.” The Israeli people being exterminated would have violated God’s promise to Abraham and HIS promise there would always be a remnant that would worship and know who HE is. God’s promises don’t end.

    When history isn’t hidden you will find out before the slaughter of millions of Jewish people at the hands of Hitler, he asked nations to take the Jews and none did, including the United States. The only reason the Jewish people suddenly became a concern was because Hitler started killing them. Now reread Isa 53:1-9 as the nations speak of Israel “bearing the nations sins” or read with the understanding that Israel is the object of (“sinful”) extreme persecution at the hands of the nations. Please name a nation that has been persecuted like the Jewish nation has and has continued for as long as they have.

    #945087
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick you said……..>Hi Gene,

    Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all men everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising him from the dead.

    Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead , some began to sneer, but others said, “ we shall hear you again concerning this”

    So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed…

    Acts 17.30f

    …God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believed. For , indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Cor 2.21f

    We cast the seed of the Word but it is a hard sell and we should expect that most cannot accept it and mock it. Such is the plan of God.

    the road is narrow and few will choose it.

    AMEN TO THAT brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Nick……….gene

    #945088
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth,  God said the the Kingdom of Israel showed themselves more Justified than their sister, the the Kingdom of Judah .
    The simple history of the Jewish people speaks to the sword that God sent after them in the nations they went to.
    Lev 26:33…..> “And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.”

    That is what happened to the Kingdom of Israel, and the Kingdom of of their treacherous sister , Judah.

    Scripture shows that the Kingdom of Israel, is not the same thing as the Kingdom of Judah.  They are different Kingdoms, but a time will come when they will be United into one nation. In that day there will be only one  nation of Israel, but that hasn’t  happened yet. The two sticks of the kingdom of Israel, and  the stick of Judah will be groined back together again in the future.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

    #945089
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I seriously have no idea where you are going with this history lesson concerning Israel; both kingdoms where evil and subsequently dispersed (exiled). At the end of the age the Jewish people will be brought back to the land promised, united, and will be one people again.

    What’s your point?

    #945096
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth @admin

    “desiretruth” said that he is here to ask questions.
    But then he made these statements:
    “what’s shipwrecked is christianity, and it’s sinking!” (post-945033)
    “God has been opening my eyes to the deception called christianity.” (post-945034)
    It’s obvious that his real intention is to attack christianity.

    #945104
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    On that subject, it has to be said that there is corruption in Christianity like any organization. However, the focus for Christians should always be Christ himself who leads us to God and not the organizations that men build in God’s name. Jesus is the messiah, so instead of letting Christianity lead us, we should let the one who takes us to the Father without sin to lead us because he is our true shepherd. Christianity and Christ are two different things. One is an interpretation of the other. In fact many interpretations.

    Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from beginning to end. He did not give up because of the cross! On the contrary, because of the joy that was waiting for him, he thought nothing of the disgrace of dying on the cross, and he is now seated at the right side of God’s throne.

    #945105
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God said he is our salvation, not that I have to go through another. God said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and your sin will be remembered no more. God said HE had no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but desired they turn from their wickedness and live. What god do you serve?

    He did this through the messiah that he sent. Without the messiah, you are stuck following the law and its precepts. But the messiah came so we could have forgiveness and the price of our sin is paid.

    #945109
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth,

    I am responding to your last post to me, in at least a few posts.

    There needs to be a lot of clarifying going on and much of it seems to be because you fill in holes making assumptions and then ask questions based in part on those assumptions that are all wrong with my belief. Quite a mess is going on here, lol!

    I am getting this out of the way, it’s not something I think is high priority to focus on at the moment though.

    The OT actually introduces the promise of eternal life.

    Isaiah 26: 18 We were with child, we writhed in labor, but we gave birth to wind. We have not brought salvation to the earth, and the people of the world have not come to life. 19 But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

    Daniel 12: 1 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    The “you” in Ezekiel 36 is directly given as the house of Israel, however I see enough evidence in the OT elsewhere that this also extends to the Gentiles.

    Daniel 12 sounds to me like a judgment is being given and we do have OT scripture that speaks of Gentiles also obtaining a judgment and also receiving what would be a glorious rest.

    Isaiah 11: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked… 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles… 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.

    #945112
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth,

    YOU: How come man is able to turn from their wickedness in the OT but not in the NT without “help”?

    ME: This is just not true, I can’t answer a question that is based on something that is totally false.

    YOU: I thought I was created in the image of God and wouldn’t by that very nature have the “ability” to be “righteous”? Please note I didn’t say sinless.

    ME: Our “ability” to be righteous that God gave us, is our ability for His Spirit to live in us, His Spirit to direct our ways.

    The law proved man’s weakness, we are not capable of keeping even one letter of the law, we of our own selves can do nothing. God delights when any person turns from their wickedness and does what is just and righteous. But righteousness comes from God’s Spirit working in man and thus God delights in the fruits of His Spirit within the spirit of man. The entire earth would be nothing but evil 24/7 if not for God’s mercy with His Spirit here and there throughout all of the earth.

    Yes, the law teaches how we should live. The law distinguishes right from wrong. But only through the Spirit can we deny the lusts of the flesh and do that which is good. This is what Paul teaches, if you have a problem with it, then you teach self-righteousness. If you are not aware of the law you are not aware of your sins. If you have been given the law you are then able to clearly identify your sins and see your weakness in being able to keep the law. Christ is the man who received the Spirit not by measure and was able to keep the law, was able to be fully obedient to God and because of such he was not deserving of death but of eternal life. Christ was an example of the power of God’s Spirit, that it is God’s Spirit, not self-righteousness, that we are able to do good.  Jesus gave all credit to God and said that he can of his own-self do nothing, everything he does is through God leading him with His Spirit. Jesus even said, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God”. Paul teaches that we are to desire the Spirit, which then also means that we are to desire to be made into the image of Jesus Christ and Paul tells us in Romans 8 of being predestined to be made into the image of the Son.

    Side note: My understanding is that man would have not amounted to anything without God’s Spirit, we would all be worse off likely than what’s depicted of man from the stone age. Not only our ability to do good is through God’s Spirit living in us, but our ability to make any sort of advancement is not without God’s Spirit. Without God we are nothing, we might as well be a serpent licking the dust.

    Exodus 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,

    Exodus 35:26 And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats’ hair. 27 And the rulers brought onyx stones, and stones to be set, for the ephod, and for the breastplate; 28 And spice, and oil for the light, and for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense. 29 The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses. 30 And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; 31 And he hath filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship; 32 And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 33 And in the cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work. 34 And he hath put in his heart that he may teach, both he, and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. 35 Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet*, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.

    #945114
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth,

    You asked if blood was required for atonement,

    Exodus 30:10 Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin</span> offering for the generations to come. It is most holy to the LORD.

    Leviticus 4:25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar.

    Lev 6:30 But any sin offering whose blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place must not be eaten; it must be burned up.

    Lev 16:15 “He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it.

    27 <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>The bull and the goat for</span> <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement</span>, <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and intestines are to be burned up.</span>

    Hebrews 13:11 <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp.</span>

    You said there was contradiction but there is not, Paul is actually quoting the OT.

    #945116
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    I hate when people misquote others; but when I am misquoted it allows me the liberty to have a little “fun.”

    What you are quoting is from post #944944 and maliciously left off the rest of what I said; I will quote for you the entire statement:

    “I came here to ask questions and present thoughts concerning those questions; hoping to bounce these thoughts off a wider pool of people verses the biased religious perspective given by the monologuing orator that stands at the front of a church every Sunday who usually doesn’t have time to address questions concerning doctrinal teachings and how it aligns with God’s word. The unfortunate part is the response received here is no different.”

    Please explain to me where I stated I was only here to ask questions, especially when I explicitly stated I came here to ASK QUESTIONS and to PRESENT THOUGHTS CONCERNING THOSE QUESTION. Me presenting my thoughts would in fact require me to make statements not only in what I present but also in response to others. Some of us like to call this dialog which is part of conversation.

    Then for you to “borrow” the words of Nick to say my “real intent is to attack christianity” requires you to go back to the beginning when I joined this group and you will discover my writing today have drastically changed. The big question is why and what happened for this change to have occurred.

    I am more than willing to have a conversation with you, but I don’t see that being reciprocated from you as you seem to always be in an attack mode because I have questioned long held beliefs and doctrine.

    So either let’s have a conversation or just ignore what I write; it’s as simple as that.

    #945117
    Nick
    Participant

    Yes Jodi,

    The whole Bible is the story of the work of God’s Spirit.

    Man has the privilege to be used in the plan.

    The Glory belongs to God.

    #945119
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You have found fault ( in your eyes) with Jesus Christ and his holy servants and seem to be unaware that your judgements are also against God and His Spirit. You have rampaged through the Holy books treating them as trash to be trampled under foot. Interesting that your view of your work is that it is of noble origins.
    Dangerous stuff but perhaps you do not know or fear our awesome God.

    #945120
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    You: Apparently

    OFFICIAL DECLARATIONS

    are important to Carmel.

    Ritualism,  not faith.

    ANSWER Nick PLEASE:

    IS BAPTISM

    AN OFFICIAL DECLARATION

    THAT YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR REDEEMER?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved:

    but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

    Now Satan the god of this MORTAL PYSICAL world is only interested in the PHYSICAL PROCESS OF THIS WORLD, according to him, HIS PROCESS CONFIRMED ON

    THE DEATH OF HUMANITY THROUGH ADAM’S SIN.

    THE FACT THAT JESUS HAD TO DIE

    TO JUSTIFY THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD ALL IN HIM AND HIS PROPERTY,

    CONFIRMED ON JESUS’ RESURRECTION!

    Romans 4:25 Who was delivered up for our sins,

    and rose again for our justification.

    NOW HUMBLY SPEAKING, ALLOW ME TO BE CLEAR OF THE TRUTH!

    ON JESUS’ RESURRECTION, 1Peter1:3 THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE  BECAME ALL AUTHENTIC HUMANS EMBODIED ONE SUBSTANCE IN JESUS RESURRECTED BODY!

    ALL SINLESS AND PURIFIED IN JESUS,

    but not yet perfect and holy as only God is perfect and holy! THUS; AFTER;

    THAT SAME EVENING  JEWISH TIME AT 6.00,

    JESUS’ RESURRECTED BODY INTEGRATED,

    GLORIFIED, AND  BECAME PERFECT ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE 

    HOLY GHOST ALREADY GLORIFIED  BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH AS

    JESUS CHRIST 

    GODMAN ON THE CROSS John13:31,32, John17:1

    THUS, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD IN

    JESUS CHRIST John 20:17,

    AND PRESENTED US ALL PERFECT IN HIM TO THE FATHER!

    Colossians 1:22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death,

    to present you holy and unspotted,

    and blameless before him:

    PRESENTED US HOLY!

    NOW ONLY GOD AND JESUS ARE HOLY!

    Ephesians 1:17That “THE GOD” of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation, in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your heart enlightened, that you may know what the hope is of the glory of his inheritance in the saints. 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power towards us, who believe according to the operation of the might of his power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, raising him up from the dead, and setting him on his right hand in the heavenly places. 21Above all principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. 22 And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church,

    23Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all.

    Colossians 1:19 Because in him,

    it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell;

     

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/declaration

    DECLARATION:

    declaration
    Primary tabs

    A declaration is an official statement, or proclamation, such as an affidavit. If the person making the declaration (called the declarant) lies in it, the declarant may be guilty of perjury.

    [Last updated in September of 2022 by the Wex Definitions Team]

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945126
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    You: It is very clear that Acts 10:38 is referring to the River Jordan.
    Start at verse 37:

    37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa,
    and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
    38 How God  anointed  Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:

    Me: from your perspective maybe so. But since it doesn’t mention SPECIFICALLY THAT JESUS WAS ANOINTED AT THE RIVER JORDAN,

    IT IS NOT  SUFFICIENTLY SO! NO? Now read hereunder please:

    Isaiah 42:1BEHOLD my servant,

    I will uphold him: 

    my elect,

    my soul delighteth in him:

    IN THE ABOVE IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT

    GOD’S SOUL, THE HOLY GHOST, DELIGHTS IN HIM; IN JESUS’ HUMAN BODY,

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN. THEN WE READ

    I HAVE given my spirit upon him,

    NOW, NOTICE THE TENSES PLEASE WHICH ARE VITAL:

    FIRST THE SIMPLE PRESENT TENSE IS USED IN:

    “My soul delights in HIM”

    We use the simple present tense when an action is happening right now, or when it happens regularly (or unceasingly, which is why it’s sometimes called present indefinite).

    THEN THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE is used in

    “I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT UPON HIM”

    We use the present perfect tense for past actions that are related to or continue into the present.

    FINALLY, THE FUTURE TENSE IS USED IN

    he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    ALL THE ABOVE PROPHECY IS DIRECTED TO

    JESUS’ TASK  PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE FOR TRUTH AND OUR REDEMPTION!

    WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT THE FULL SPIRIT OF GOD WAS UPON JESUS ETERNALLY OBVIOUSLY IN ORDER FOR GOD TO CREATE ALL IN/BY/FOR HIM!

    JESUS REEXISTED! 

    AGAIN ASSERTED IN

    Isaiah 48:16Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I HAVE not SPOKEN  in secret from the beginning: (John 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD….) NOTICE AGAIN THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE is used

    from the time before it was done,

    BEFORE CREATION WAS DONE!

    I was there,

    JESUS PREEXISTED!

    and now the Lord God hath sent me, and his spirit.

    NOTICE AGAIN PLEASE: PRESENT PERFECT TENSE:

    HAS SENT ME and  HIS SPIRIT!

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL:

    JESUS HAD THE FULL SPIRIT OF GOD  ON HIM BEFORE CREATION!

    IT STANDS TO REASON NO?

    IF GOD WAS ABOUT TO CREATE ALL IN JESUS, ALL BY JESUS, AND ALL FOR JESUS, HOW ON EARTH HE COULD ACHIEVE IT UNLESS HE EMPOWERS PRECISELY JESUS, AS A SPIRIT? Genesis 1:2 ….And the spirit of God moved over the waters.

    CONSIDERING THAT JESUS PUPOSELY IN ORDER TO BE IN ALL THINGS LIKE HUMANS, EMPTIED HIMSELF FROM HIS DIVINE SPIRIT AND POURED IT ALL OVER AS AN INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT IN EVERY CREATURE’S HEART IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION IN ORDER TO BE REDEEMED AND SAVED BY HIM!

    WAS JESUS REALLY ONLY ANOINTED AT THE RIVER JORDAN?

    IF HE REALLY WAS SO?

    Acts 10:37  That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee,

    after the baptism which John preached;

    WHAT DID BEGIN ON THIS PLANET FROM GALILEE? 

    THE WORD SPOKEN OF GOD IN JESUS! 

    AGAIN ON THIS PLANET FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME!

    THE BEGINNING!

    GOD AS A HUMAN IN JESUS THE MAN!

    THE TRUTH! AND ETERNAL LIFE ON EARTH!

    BUT WE CLEARLY READ IN Isaiah 48: 16  THESE WORDS:

    Isaiah 48:16Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I HAVE NOT SPOKEN  in secret from the beginning: (John 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD….)

    from the time before it was done,

    BEFORE CREATION WAS DONE!

    I was there,

    JESUS WAS THERE IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION, HIDDEN LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, ANOINTED AND EMPOWERED FROM THE BEGINNING, BY THE FULL SPIRIT OF GOD TO BE MOST POWERFUL EVEN WHEN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    FOR MY POWER IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS!

    38 How God  anointed  Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:

    FROM THE BEGINNING WHEN THE RIVER JORDAN WAS NOT EVEN IN EXISTENCE!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945128
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth @proclaimer

    desiretruth also said: “Separate the OT from the NT and quit trying to merge what cannot be merged.” (post-944265)

    Me: Romans 8:38-39
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor
    things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall
    be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Thus, your mission will fail, desiretruth.

    #945129
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    bewildering speculative dogma.

    #945130
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Desire Truth
    IF YOU REALLY BELIEVED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, YOU WOULD ALSO BE A BELIEVER OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

    🙏

    #945131
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Is it possible for the old testament to be wrong?

    Is it possible for the new testament to be wrong?

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