John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,881 through 24,900 (of 25,997 total)
  • Author
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  • #945036
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Having become frustrated with your attacks on faith and despairing in your doubts you have cast aside your mask and now reveal your real target is Christianity itself.

    You attack God and His Spirit.

    sad.

     

    #945037
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT

    You know about God apparently and claim some sort of relationship with Him but your god is yourself and your Bible is only your understandings.

    With no foundation you are adrift in the troubled seas having no anchor to rely on.

    Dig deeper and put your foundation on rock. That rock is my teachings says the Lord Jesus.

     

    #945038
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I serve the Lord God of Israel safe in His Son Jesus Christ.

    What about you???

     

    #945047
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    In reference to post #944977, one word is all you need and that is “zera”; I have been over this word before and is a reference to descendants, one who is procreated, something produced after it’s own kind. This is the term used in the OT to reference who the Messiah will be, the seed of David.

    In other words in the lineage of David.

    Me: I’m afraid I have to repeat what I said again with the hope that

    YOU STOP LOOKING AT THINGS ONLY FROM  THEIR CARNAL PERSPECTIVE!

    BUT BEFORE I DO THAT READ THS SCRIPTURE PLEASE:

    Luke8:18 Take heed therefore how you hear. For whosoever has,

    to him shall be given:

    and whosoever hath not,

    that also which he thinks he has, shall be taken away from him.

    I repeat the above scripture for you again:

    Take heed therefore how you hear.

    For whosoever has,

    to him shall be given:

    THUS IF YOU ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN

    WHAT YOU HAVE

    YOUR CARNAL-MINDED UNDERSTANDING,

    THAT’S WHAT YOU GET EVEN MORE!

     TO THE NEXT PART NOW:

    and whosoever hath not,

    that also which he thinks he has,

    shall be taken away from him.

    THUS IF YOU REMAIN STAGNATED IN YOUR CARNAL-MINDED UNDERSTANDING, SPIRITUALLY BLIND LIKE THE JEWS OF THE OT. AND AT THE SAME TIME  YOU THINK  THAT  WHILE YOU ARE READING SCRIPTURE, WHICH IS THE SPIRITUAL WORD OF GOD WHO IS SPIRIT,

    YOU RECEIVE THE TRUTH, 

    THAT’S WHAT SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU:

    THE TRUTH! 

    Now back to my Post:

     

    You: f Jesus is conceived of the Holy Spirit, then he is not of the “seed” of David, and therefore is automatically disqualified as being the Messiah. Now what?

    Me:  With every respect, your username should be 

    BLINDTRUTH!

    NOW READ PLEASE:

    John 1:3 All things were made by him:

    and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    NOT EVEN “ZERA”

    What does the above scripture tell you clearly?

    IT IS PRECISELY THE FACT THAT JESUS IS CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, THAT CONFIRMS HIM

    THE SEED OF DAVID!

    What is THE SEED OF DAVID?

    CHEW PLEASE AND DISCERN THE TRUTH!

    MAYBE!

    NOW I ASK YOU

    WHO IS DAVID?

    Psalm 18:4 The sorrows of death surrounded me: and the torrents of iniquity troubled me.

    5The sorrows of hell encompassed me: and the snares of death prevented me.

    6In my affliction I called upon the Lord, and I cried to my God: And he heard my voice from his holy temple: and my cry before him came into his ears.

    7The earth shook and trembled: the foundations of the mountains were troubled and were moved, because he was angry with them.

    8There went up a smoke in his wrath: and a fire flamed from his face: coals were kindled by it.

    9He bowed the heavens, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

    10And he ascended upon the cherubim, and he flew; he flew upon the wings of the winds.

    11And he made darkness his covert, his pavilion round about him: dark waters in the clouds of the air.

    12At the brightness that was before him the clouds passed, hail and coals of fire.

    13And the Lord thundered from heaven, and the highest gave his voice: hail and coals of fire.

    14And he sent forth his arrows, and he scattered them: he multiplied lightnings, and troubled them.

    15Then the fountains of waters appeared, and the foundations of the world were discovered: At thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the spirit of thy wrath.

    16He sent from on high, and took me: and received me out of many waters.

    17He delivered me from my strongest enemies, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me.

    18They prevented me in the day of my affliction: and the Lord became my protector.

    19And he brought me forth into a large place: he saved me, because he was well pleased with me.

    49Therefore will I give glory to thee, O Lord, among the nations, and I will sing a psalm to thy name.50  Giving great deliverance to his king, and shewing mercy to David his anointed : and to his seed for ever.

     

    Peace and love n Jesus Christ

     

    #945054
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth you said…….> First verse, Jesus explicitly stated to those he was speaking to, would never finish going through the towns of Israel before he returned. What are we to make of Jesus’ statement and why no response to this verse?

    Your answer…….> Jesus was absolute right,  “the lost sheep, of the house of Israel” who the Disciple’s , were set to,   had been spread  all over this world and had established thousands of cities, that even then  existed  in this world, and some of them had never hear the “true” , Gospel , even unto this day very day some haven’t.
    Your problem is you are thinking that the “Jews” represented the cities of Israel, when in fact the Jew’s represented  only 1/13 th, of the tribes of Israel , even in the day , the Jew’s like to claim they represent all of Israel, but in truth they are Just a fraction of the tribes of Israel, Even this to this very day.  But you would have to know the history of the “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” , to understand that,
    which you don’t .

    Why are you continually trying  to find fault with the words of Jesus? What Spirit has taken over your mind, the book of Hebrews totally destroys your thinking, so now you believe we should remove it completely from our bible text.  How bold, you have strayed  from the truth and to try to make our scriptures conform to your way of thinking is the result.  Your new mindset has made you and enemy of our lord Jesus and his words. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #945055
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    So you claim God is your Father.

    And by reading the OT you found that you can be like the Ninevites and restore your own relationship with Him.

    So you do not claim that your relationship with Him is through Abraham or Moses but just Adam.

    You despise Jesus Christ and his brothers and reject the teachings they gave us. No intermediary needed in your relationship with God you say.

    It sounds like a unique and lonely path.

    But Wolves normally work in packs.

    The Prodigal son comes to mind.

    #945056
    Nick
    Participant

    Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal, but the word of God is not imprisoned.2 Tim 2.8

    Paul walking in the Spirit of Christ

    #945058
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    How was Jesus a descendant of David when Jesus’ daddy was the spirit? Same question I asked Carmel and received some spiritualized nonsense for a response. When the OT explicitly states the Messiah was to be of the seed (zera) of David; what say you?

    As one continues reading this Timothy passage, Paul states Jesus is risen from the dead and a descendant of David and it’s according to his (Paul’s) gospel. Paul has a gospel too?!?? This is where you determine Jesus was a descendant of David. How about go to the source (that would be the OT by the way) and learn what God said about the Messiah.

    This is getting sadder every day; and I’m the one who’s been “deceived”!! Take your Jesus googles off and start reading what is written.

    #945059
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You need assurance that God is not lying and the Son and those in him are also truthful witnesses?

    I believe and I believe in the Spirit Who wrote the scriptures through men. I expect to understand how it all fits together when the Son returns and gathers up his sheep.

    Trust in God is a huge stumbling block for you poor fellow and you still have to filter it through your own understanding first.

    God is bigger than you.

    #945060
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    There is hope because Paul was on a much feared murderous mission against the Body of Christ, convinced in his pharisaical zeal that he was serving God, when he was toppled from his high place becoming blind, then healed and anointed with wisdom and power. He became an amazing servant of God so why should we give up on you.

    #945061
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    And you still can’t answer a question; your inability to answer what I have asked makes your silence deafening.

    All I have done is read words on a page and when the words don’t align, it creates questions. For you, it’s okay and you blindly accept them without question because someone told you it was “the spirit who wrote the scriptures through men” and therefore infallible. Except, when a lie is told long enough it becomes truth. The trinity had its start in 325AD and has been accepted as truth for centuries and is the central belief for many christians today, why do you reject it?

    Is my trust to be in Jesus or God?

    Like I said before, good luck.

    #945062
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    The verse posted again for reference:

    Matt 10:23 “Whenever they persecute you in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”

    You mention the House of Israel but not the House of Judah; this is the northern and southern kingdoms respectively. Yes, when the Northern Kingdom was sent into exile, the Assyrian Empire scattered them all over their empire. Eventually the same thing happened to the Southern Kingdom. However, Jesus specifically says the “towns of Israel”; this is actually interesting that Jesus would say Israel as the area was known as Judea and was a vassal state of the Roman Empire and wouldn’t have been know as Israel; a moot point, but a cool history lesson…I digress.

    Onto what you said about the House of Israel (and House of Judah) being scattered and being what Jesus was telling the disciples where they were to go. This understanding doesn’t work because wherever the Jewish people had been scattered wouldn’t have been an Israelite town, because it wouldn’t have been in the land God promised them. So they would have been “occupying” in a foreign land and have been a foreigner.

    Back to what Jesus said about going through the towns of Israel, I think it makes more sense that Jesus was referring to the towns within the region of Judea, the area any Jew would have believed was the land that belonged to them even though they where under Roman rule. This thought is confirmed, although contradictory with his Matthew statement, in Acts 1:8 when he says “you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest parts of the earth.” Which now brings us back to the real point of all this, the disciples would “not finish going through all the towns of Israel before the son of man comes.” The words Jesus spoke are plain and the question is did Jesus return before they were able to finish “spreading the good news”? The answer is no, which begs the question of why the writer put in; when clearly Jesus was saying the disciples where to go into all the world as stated in Matt 28:19 and Acts 1:8.

    Do you not see why I question the validity of what is written in the NT? We are taught there are no contradictions in the NT…really?!?! I’ll finish later with the rest of your post as this is getting long and late.

    #945063
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You need to listen to God and obey Him and  be reborn into His Son, Jesus Christ,  of water and the Spirit, to begin your new and useful life. Then everything else you need will be given to you.

    #945064
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Thinkers, like yourself, have got to commit intellectual suicide, and simply accept what God teaches without analysis and criticism because it is the simple and childlike ones who find the truth by obedience.

    “ Thank you Father, for revealing to mere children what you have withheld from the wise and clever of this world.”

    It will not be easy.

    #945065
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    You: “Thinkers, like yourself, have got to commit intellectual suicide”

    Me: So I am suppose to give up my skills of reasoning when it comes to understanding what is said in the NT, this characteristic that God implanted in me – which God also has because I am created in HIS image – and blindly follow the words of man?

    You hit it last night when you said you believe the NT is spirit breathed through man and that is the major difference between the OT and NT. There is not one statement anywhere in the NT where the “spirit says” speaking directly through a man; in the OT God speaks directly through a man over 400 times. In the NT we must believe through faith it was God speaking; in the OT there is no doubt HE is speaking.

    You: “He (Paul) became an amazing servant of God so why should we give up on you.”

    Me: I find this to be a little disingenuous, considering most every response you have given me has been in the negative. In none of your responses have you corrected my thinking/explained why my thinking may be wrong. Unless you are willing to have a conversation concerning these recent questions I have, please just ignore them and move on.

    #945066
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……AT the time of Jesus , both The kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah no longer existed.  The Ancient Assyrians took captive the kingdom of Israel all ten tribes of them, and moved them out of their lands into the north country to what is now days call Germany, to a place called “Saxony” where they spread from there to all over Europe and England , they were called the names of Anglo Saxons, Celt’s, Norman, the Danes and others, They settled most all of England , Denmark, Norwegian, Spain, France, and later From England to America, Canada, Australia and other parts of the earth.  The Jew later followed where they went after they were kicked out of their lands by the Romans,  that is why they wound up in Germany. But as God said to them He would send a sword after ten wherever they went, and that is even true to this very day, the only found some peace in the other Israelite nations as it is this day, even now if it weren’t for the UNITED STATES, a Israelite Nation, they would have been exterminated by now.  The Jews today , Claim the name of Israel, but in fact they are but a “fraction” of present day Israel.   There are more Jews living in the United States then in Israel, and even most of them that claim to be Jew’s aren’t, remember the Kingdom of Judah consisted of three tribes, the tribe of Binjiman,  the tribe of Levi, and the tribe of Judah,  so even in the kingdom of Judah the Jew’s only represented a third of the people.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

    #945067
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Yes.<span style=”text-align: right;”> Only God can show you that you need to be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Your reliance on your reasoning is the foundation of your belief system and arguments are futile .</span>

    ”For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

    ” I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside”

    Where is the wise man?Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?For since in the Wisdom of God the world through wisdom did not come to know God, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe”

    1 Cor 1.18f

    Paul offers no excuses to clever people because He sent His Son to save sinners, the lost sheep of Israel, the ignorant and desperate. All must be reborn into the death of Yahshua, carrying in their bodies the dying of His Son.

     

    Do you KNOW God .?

    Does He know you?

    #945068
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Have you yet figured out that winning arguments is not a priority?

     

    #945069
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    “My power shows up best in weak people”

     

    #945071
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    A woman from Lydia, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.And when she and her household had been baptised, she urged us saying,

    ”If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay”

    And she prevailed on us.

    Acts 16.14f

    Some seed fell on good soil. The response to the message is in the hands of God.

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