John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,441 through 24,460 (of 25,998 total)
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  • #944030
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: What an exemplary display of “Christ like” love!

    Me: Is this a joke? You are the one who denies Jesus Christ!

    May God grant you repentance.

    #944037
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    @Berean
    ,

    We can go off on another tangent with Isa 49:1-6 (the second Servant Song); however, we still haven’t finished with who is speaking in Isa 52:13-53:12. It’s as if everyone keeps dodging the question; let’s focus like a laser beam on this ONE topic so we can move on.

    #944039
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….If you are going to insist that it is referring to Israel as a “righteous Servant of God” in the ‘Song” then it is also incumbent upon you to tell us,  in what way “Israel was a, “Righteous Servant” , Right?   If you can’t prove that, then your whole argument fails apart right?
    Another thing to remember is Jesus himself was an Israelite, so perhaps he is the fulfillment of that prophesy in chapter 53.  You can’t separate Jesus from Israel,  seeming he was an Israelite also.

    By the way I never called you names intentionally, this tablet sometimes add things into the text I am writing, sorry for that. I think you are a very studious person by the way, have from the start and still do.

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

     

    #944052
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Acts 8

    Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
    [30] And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
    [31] And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
    [32] The place of the scripture which he read was this,

    “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
    [33] In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.”

    [34] And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

    [35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

     

    The Ethiopian in Acts 8:34 asked a question about Isaiah 52:13-53:12: Of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man? This question is still asked today, and the answer is extremely important.

    Through the book of Isaiah, many have been called servants of the LORD in one way or another. This includes Isaiah himself (Isaiah 20:3), Eliakim (Isaiah 22:20), David (Isaiah 37:35), and Israel (Isaiah 41:8-9). But there is no doubt that the phrase is also used as a specific title for the Messiah, , and this is what is in view here.(v.34)

     

     

    #944054
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean good job ,  all the disciples  knew that those scriptures were talking about Jesus, I also believe that.  The kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah,  only served God when they were forced to, by their leaders,  they were rebellious to God continuously,  that is why God kicked them out of their lands because they rebelled against him and would not serve him, as Old Testament scriptures clearly show.  And with that understanding,  there is no way in which Isaiah was speaking about Israel . It might apply in the future, but it’s certainly does not at this time, nor the tine it was written. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Berean………..gene

    #944055
    Berean
    Participant

    Thanks Gene for
    your encouragement.
    Let us pray that the love of the truth motivates us more and more each day and that God helps us to know how to exhort ourselves for his glory.

    🙏

    #944056
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You said to Carmel: I am stunned by your response! None of what you said is supported by scripture. The only thing that comes to mind is, “get behind me Satan.”

    Me: So, for YOU it is ok to rebuke other people. But when I do it, then I’m the unloving one.
    What an exemplary display of hypocrisy! Anyway, you call yourself “desiretruth,” yet you reject the one who is the truth – Jesus Christ! (John 14:6)
    What a wicked game.

    #944057
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth and All,

    Been very busy but able to catch some posts in my email.

    I did a bible study yesterday, which looks like Berean also did, regarding the servants mentioned in Isaiah.

    I think it is interesting the names that Berean provided and looking at what they mean,

    Isaiah is called God’s servant in 20:3, Isaiah’s name means, “Jehovah has saved“.

    Eliakim is called God’s servant in 22:20, his name means “God raises up“.

    David is called God’s servant in 37:35, his name means, “beloved“.

    Israel is called God’s servant in 41:8, Israel means, “God prevails”.

    It can be said I do believe that all of these names also represent Christ in some way.

    Let’s look at another name mentioned,

    Isaiah 44: 1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: 2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

    Jeshurun = “upright one“, a symbolic name for Israel describing her ideal character

    Most certainly Jesus Christ, God’s beloved Son whom God raised up from the dead is an upright one, he is of ideal character and also said to be a firstborn of many brethren. God has indeed prevailed where by God through Jesus Christ Jews and Gentiles are saved.

    As the name Israel represents Jacob, one person, and also represents 12 tribes (his descendants), can this name not also represent in another instance one person, one specific descendant of Israel?

    Isaiah 49: 1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

    This is clearly speaking of the unnamed servant Isaiah spoke of in chapter 42, also spoken of in Isaiah 11 and 61.

    42:1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. 2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. 3 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; 4 he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his teaching the islands will put their hope…6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,

    This servant who is given a mouth like a sharp sword and is called by God as “O Israel, is mentioned in Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Israel most certainly in scripture represents the one person Jacob as well as his descendants and further one specific descendant, Jesus Christ.

    Reflect on the meaning of the name Israel, it means “God prevails”.

    In the book of Isaiah God promises Israel that He will redeem them, that He will remember their sins no more and He does this through His righteous servant Jesus Christ.

    Isaiah 43: 1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine….10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour…24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

    This makes me think of 1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    Clearly Isaiah 53 is prophecy of the men who would report the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, that of Peter and Paul as well as others.

     

    #944058
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    You asked who is speaking,

    Isaiah 52:13-15 sounds to me like it is God speaking

    Isaiah 53: 1-10 as mentioned in my previous post this is prophecy of the apostles, those reporting on the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, those who preached to bring forth belief in him.

    Isaiah 53:111-12 God is speaking

    What’s happening in Isaiah 52:1-12 we are being given history and that of prophecy, prophecy of the LORD’s Day, a day where those who sleep the sleep of death in Christ will awake to a reward, a day of joy and comfort where people receive the eternal drink of the One Spirit, a day where Jesus will sit and rule over all the earth on his father David’s throne in Jerusalem bringing forth blessing and peace, where all inhabitants will worship our Heavenly Father having the Spirit upon them that is in all goodness righteousness and truth.

    1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
    2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
    3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
    4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
    5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
    6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
    7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
    8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
    9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
    10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
    11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
    12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

    Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    The spoil, what did Jesus gain from dying on the cross? He was raised from the dead and received the promised Spirit to live in him forevermore and he was declared to be a future judge and king overall the earth. When Jesus returns those who believe in him he will give also of this Spirit. Further, Jesus will appoint men to be judges and rulers over all the earth with him.

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    #944059
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    Me: just in case you forgot or you missed my Post:

    Here is

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: 

    AND THIS IS MY QUESTION:

    FROM WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #944062
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi………Hope all is well with you and yours, Excellent post,  that’s the way I see it also.  Hope Desire Truth,  comes to see it that way also.  Thanks.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi…………..gene

    #944063
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth …….Please really consider what we are telling you brother.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #944069
    Nick
    Participant

    The Word is the Spirit of Christ.

    A portion of the Holy Spirit assigned to the Son.

    The Word was made flesh at the Jordan.

    #944070
    Nick
    Participant

    We see the apportioning of the Spirit shown when Elisha asked for a double portion of the Spirit given to Elijah.
    Scripture is written in spiritual language and it does not fit with human logic.

     

    #944074
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    It seems Christianity must push/inject Jesus into Isa 53. Is God speaking in verses 10-12 thru Isaiah? If yes, then this response MUST be referring back to the previous section of this chapter. If no, then who is speaking? I am a little perplexed to why most (thank you Jodi) won’t answer who is speaking where in this “song.”

    We keep saying this is absolutely all about Jesus; why then is verse 10 left off in every response or glossed over and not responded to? The simple answer is verse 10 cannot be used because it doesn’t fit Jesus. Yet, verses 11 & 12 are said to be referring to him, but verse 10 precedes 11 & 12 they must be read together as one thought.

    Vs. 10 Yet it pleased HaShem to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of HaShem might prosper by his hand:

    It “pleased” or “delighted” God to crush his “son” and to make him “weak”, “sick”, or “ill”? This doesn’t make sense, would you do this to your own son or daughter and for what purpose? Then to take pleasure in “crushing” them. Is it possible for God to take “pleasure” in correcting disobedience and thru this affliction, turn the nation of Israel back to him?

    As we continue reading: “to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution” or as a “guilt offering”; so Israel was “crushed” to get them to turn back to God. They are to present a “guilt offering” to God; what is this “guilt offering”? For this go to biblehub.com, look up the verse, and go to the Hebrew translation. Here we see the “guilt offering” is an “asham” offering. Looking up this “asham”, it is a type of offering done when one doesn’t know if they have committed a sin or what sin they may have committed. This offering does fit when applied to Israel, who is in exile at this time and would continue to be. The longer they are in exile the less likely they are going to follow after God and do his commands; thus, would unknowingly be sinning against God. Is it possible God gives them an “easy” way back to him; admit they unknowingly sinned and turn back to HIM. When they do, they will see their offspring, live long, and the will of God will prosper in all they do.

    How does verse 10 fit Jesus?

    Then moving onto verse 11 where some are hung up on the wording of “my righteous servant.” Some translations say “righteous one, my servant” and others say “my servant”; “righteous” here is an adjective describing the servant. Why is the servant now called “righteous”, could it be because they turned back to God and in doing so are following God’s commands, HIS laws (remember the “if” statement in verse 10). Deut. 6:25 “And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe to do all this commandment before HaShem our G-d, as He hath commanded us.”

    In verse 12 I will focus on the last part as this is getting extremely long and by this point most reading will have glossed over and just skipped on; “yet he bore the sin of the many, and for the transgressors he prayed.” What is this “sin”; look it up on biblehub and the word is “chet”, comes from “chata.”, which means to “miss the mark.” In the Hebrew culture “chet” is one of three degrees of sin and is to inadvertently sin, one has “missed the mark.” Applying this context, Israel would have “bore the (inadvertent) sins” of her oppressor who unjustly abused Israel while in exile; as explained by the nations in verses 4-5.

    “…for the transgressors he prayed” is a continuation of the above explanation; so God is saying his “righteous servant” prayed for the transgressor. Jer 29:4 “Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have deported from Jerusalem to Babylon, 5 ‘Build houses and live in them, and plant gardens and eat their fruit. 6 Take wives and father sons and daughters, and take for your sons wives, and give your daughters to men that they may bear sons and daughters, and multiply there, and you must not be few. 7 And seek the prosperity of the city where I have deported you, and pray on behalf of it to Yahweh, for in its prosperity you will have prosperity.’”

    Another point concerning the “prayed for the transgressor”, is Jesus in heaven praying continually for mankind? Before all jump on the “yes” bandwagon, Jesus was to “intercede” on our behalf acting as our mediator; praying and interceding are not the same.

    How is Jesus in any of this?

    #944075
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    I would recommend what you do is compare the Acts 8:32-33 passage to the OT passage in Isa 53:7-8 and tell me they’re the same. The Acts passage has been modified. Seems a bit naughty to change what Isaiah relayed from God.

    Isa 8 “By oppression and judgment He was taken away;”

    Acts 33 “In humiliation His judgment was taken away;”

    In Isa “he” is taken away and in Acts his “judgment” is taken away. This isn’t a word nuance, they don’t say the same thing; why the modification? How many modifications like this are allowed and the NT still be called the “inspired word of God”? And you wonder why I am now questioning the veracity of the NT; these type of modifications are everywhere in the NT and the book of Hebrews is the worst.

    #944076
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Thank you for answering my question of who is speaking where…finally! I will respectfully disagree with your interpretation of who is speaking in Isa 53:1-9 (don’t include verse 10 in this dialogue, verse 10 belongs with 11-12). If you are going to say Isaiah is prophesying what the apostles are going to say speaking of the crucified of Jesus, then the personal pronouns need an explanation. If the “our”, “me”, and “my” refer to the apostles and the “he”, “him”, and “his” refer to Jesus; then Jesus died only for the apostles since the “our”, “me”, and “my” take ownership of the deeds done to the “servant.” Doesn’t make sense does it?

    I don’t know how much of this you have been following; but, I asked a short while ago where it states in the OT what Paul says in I Corinthians 15:3-4 “according to scripture” (meaning it’s stated in the OT) the Messiah was to “die for the sins of mankind” and “be buried and raised again on the third day.”

    I have been given Isa 53, Ps 16, and Ps 22 as being “proof” of this claim and if one where to truly look at these passages, Jesus is nowhere to be found in any of them. Looking thru a christological lens one can find “dying for sins”, but to be raised on the third day is missing. Some will jump to Jonah as proof; please don’t, Jesus said he would be in the earth AS Jonah was in the belly of the whale. This isn’t a prophecy, but a comparison and Jonah being in the whale was a punishment for not listening to God. If we are going to use Jonah as proof, what was Jesus being punished for? Before you answer that with “our sins”, please explain where in the OT it states anyone is responsible and is punished for the guilt of another.

    #944077
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..you said…..>Vs. 10 Yet it pleased HaShem to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of HaShem might prosper by his hand:

    It “pleased” or “delighted” God to crush his “son” and to make him “weak”, “sick”, or “ill”? This doesn’t make sense, would you do this to your own son or daughter and for what purpose? Then to take pleasure in “crushing” them. Is it possible for God to take “pleasure” in correcting disobedience and thru this affliction, turn the nation of Israel back to him?

    Me …Yes it makes perfect sense, if you consider What Jesus did was pleasing to God, why because it showed God the Father how much Jesus loved him, that he was willing to put himself to so much suffering and even death, in obedience to him.  It’s all about “who is your ‘FIRST” love”. Jesus demonstrated his ‘first love” above “all things, even his own life was God the Father.  Even Abraham willing to even put his Son Issac to death in obedience to God, was pleasing to God the Father, that is why he is called the, “father of the faithful”.

    Desire Truth,   It certainly did please God the Father , what Jesus did by pouring his soul out to death, in obedience to him,  we must also come to that point in our lives also,  Jesus “demonstrated ” to us all what God the Father requires of us all. God the Father  must become the “First love”. of us all, exactly as he was to Jesus, and Abraham both.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

    #944078
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    I Corinthians 15:3-4 are the verses in question; Paul stated “according to scripture” (meaning this is in the OT) and it’s the claim “the Messiah dying for the sins of mankind” and “being buried and raised on the third day.” I am asking for the verses in the OT that support Paul’s statement.

    If what Paul states isn’t in the OT, we have a problem.

    #944080
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You are not commenting on the rest of the verse; God “crushed” him “to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution” as in a “guilt offering.” You can’t leave that off, because then we’re “cherry picking” the words to make them fit an ideology. If the servant was to offer himself as a “guilt (asham) offering”, that means the servant didn’t know he commented a sin or what sin he committed. AND “guilt offerings” were done by the individual committing the sin and NOT for taking responsibility for someone else sin! Words have meanings, and those meanings must be applied in the context they have been written.

    Have you looked into anything I have written or are you denying what I have said because it doesn’t align to a personally held belief system?

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