John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,421 through 24,440 (of 25,998 total)
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  • #943997
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….Isaiah was a prophet to the kingdom of Judah,  not sent to The kingdom of Israel or the rest of the world, as you seem to insist,  he was talking about his sins and the Nation of Judah,  so if you understand that, then the People being spoken of in the Prophecy could not have been Israel , it’s just that simple.

    Another point you need to consider, the nation of Israel was not even in existence when that prophesy was give , they were already taken in captivity by Assyria and remove from their land. The only ones remaining was the Kingdom of Judah. If you insist that it was Israel who was the stuffing servant being mentioned there, then it is incumbent  on you to tell us how they were a “SUFFERING” ” SERVANT”,  then right?   Please explain that to us.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth…….gene

    #943999
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Of the best-known prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning the death of Messiah, Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 certainly stand out. Psalm 22 is especially amazing since it predicted numerous separate elements about Jesus’ crucifixion a thousand years before Jesus was crucified. Here are some examples. Messiah will have His hands and His feet “pierced” through (Psalm 22:16; John 20:25). The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) (Psalm 22:17; John 19:33). Men will cast lots for Messiah’s clothing (Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35).

    Isaiah 53, the classic messianic prophecy known as the “Suffering Servant” prophecy, also details the death of Messiah for the sins of His people. More than 700 years before Jesus was even born, Isaiah provides details of His life and death. The Messiah will be rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Luke 13:34). The Messiah will be killed as a vicarious sacrifice for the sins of His people (Isaiah 53:5–9; 2 Corinthians 5:21). The Messiah will be silent in front of His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; 1 Peter 2:23). The Messiah will be buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57–60). The Messiah will be with criminals in His death (Isaiah 53:12; Mark 15:27).

    In addition to the death of the Jewish Messiah, His resurrection from the dead is also foretold. The clearest and best known of the resurrection prophecies is the one penned by Israel’s King David in Psalm 16:10, also written a millennium before the birth of Jesus: “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.”

    On the Jewish feast day of Shavuot (Weeks or Pentecost), when Peter preached the first gospel sermon, he boldly asserted that God had raised Jesus the Jewish Messiah from the dead (Acts 2:24). He then explained that God had performed this miraculous deed in fulfillment of David’s prophecy in Psalm 16. In fact, Peter quoted the words of David in detail as contained in Psalm 16:8–11. Some years later, Paul did the same thing when he spoke to the Jewish community in Antioch. Like Peter, Paul declared that God had raised Messiah Jesus from the dead in fulfillment of Psalm 16:10 (Acts 13:33–35).

    The resurrection of the Messiah is strongly implied in another Davidic psalm. Again, this is Psalm 22. In verses 19–21, the suffering Savior prays for deliverance “from the lion’s mouth” (a metaphor for Satan). This desperate prayer is then followed immediately in verses 22–24 by a hymn of praise in which the Messiah thanks God for hearing His prayer and delivering Him. The resurrection of the Messiah is clearly implied between the ending of the prayer in verse 21 and the beginning of the praise song in verse 22.

    And back again to Isaiah 53: after prophesying that the Suffering Servant of God would suffer for the sins of His people, the prophet says He would then be “cut off out of the land of the living.” But Isaiah then states that He (Messiah) “will see His offspring” and that God the Father will “prolong His days” (Isaiah 53:5, 8, 10). Isaiah proceeds to reaffirm the promise of the resurrection in different words: “As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see light and be satisfied” (Isaiah 53:11).

    #944000
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Danny Dabbs

    Amen!

    Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.(Amos3:7)

    #944001
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You: @Carmel

    I am super confused by what you’re actually looking for.

    I don’t blame you. Read hereunder:

    Matthew 13:12For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound:

    BUT HE THAT HATH NOT,

    FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY THAT ALSO WHICH HE HATH,

    You: I have already explained what I believe is happening in these verses.

    For some reason you believe there is more.

    Me: AND HOW!

    You: All I read is Daniel praising God for revealing a dream that was “hidden.”

    Fine:

    Daniel 2:22 He reveals the deep and the hidden things;

    Me: Daniel is praising God alright but for God’s sake, not just for what God reveals to him!

    God reveals the DEEP and the hidden THINGS, not just of that particular dream. NO?

    Daniel praised God GENERALLY.  

    Also Daniel, in that verse, enlightened us more than you think!

    …he knows what is in darkness, and light dwells with him.

    In the above Daniel said

    GOD KNOWS WHAT’S IN “DARKNESS”.

    NOW, IF WITHIN DARKNESS THERE’S SOMETHING MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN, WHAT IN ACTUAL FACT IS IT?

    You: You keep asking what the “darkness” is as if it is a “being” and I told you

    it’s the lack of light. Is this not good enough for you? 

    BUT ONLY FROM ONE PARTICULAR PERSPECTIVE!

     DON’T TELL ME THAT YOU TAKE THIS GENERALLY AS WELL!

    Nevertheless, always according to your conclusion, whatever is within darkness is definitely

    NOT LIGHT!

    You: The “darkness” spoken of in Daniel is the same “darkness” spoken of in Gen 1:2

    Me: WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE?

    YES and NO!

    In a particular way and in relation to “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of man, since ALL IN/BY HIM, the word darkness in Genesis 1:2 is both a reference to a different state of darkness from Daniel and also to JESUS’PREEXISTENCE AS A SPIRIT,  Slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev. 13:8, the fact that God, by the pronouncement “LET THERE BE LIGHT”, a clear reference to JESUS, THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, was about to commence the physical creation VERY GOOD precisely from within darkness itself. Attention please:

    But be aware, the darkness in Genesis 1:2 is definitely both not related to the devil, and also without THE LEAST participation from the devil. In fact, the devil was never in any way involved in creation yet.

    On the other hand, in Daniel, though God AGAIN, by and through “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man as a spirit, THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, was in full control, the word darkness is a reference to the evil state of the world, where the devil dominated humanity and desperately needed THE REDEEMER, WHO, in that particular moment in time, was MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN in darkness, DARKNESS ITSELF, Psalm 139:12, BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD Matthew 13:44, in the entire process of the “darkness” creation, Isaiah 45:7 the fact that Daniel said:

     “he knows what “IS” in darkness”,

    again a clear reference to

    “THE WORD” Jesus as a spirit,

    “THE DEEP DARKNESS” MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN within!

    Ironically well hinted out in the scripture you posted:

    Read:

    Job 12:22 “He reveals mysteries from the darkness and

    brings the deep darkness into light.”

    John, the most OT gospel and spiritual MADE IT AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL and  gave us

    THE TRUTH of this MYSTERIOUS OT scripture, and said:

    John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness,

    You: I told you it’s the lack of light.

    Is this not good enough for you? 

    DT. WAS IT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME? As you can well read, AFTER ALL IN THE ABOVE,

    DARKNESS IS NOT ONLY THE LACK OF LIGHT AT ALL,

    DON’T YOU THINK SO, IT CLEARLY SAYS:

    THE LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS!

    NOW READ THE NEXT PIECE

    and “DARKNESS” did not comprehend it.

    Now read again

    Job 12:22 “He reveals MYSTERIES from the DARKNESS and

    brings THE DEEP DARKNESS into LIGHT.”

    From the above now we have another perspective and this is that there is both DARKNESS and also DEEP DARKNESS!

    Also, God brings this DEEP DARKNESS into LIGHT!

    You: You keep asking what the “darkness” is as if it is a “being”

    Now I’m afraid I have to ask you again, but this time not just if darkness is a being

    BUT, ARE  DARKNESS and DEEP DARKNESS TWO SEPERATE BEINGS?

    Also, both of us NOW could presume who IN A WAY, THE BEING DARKNESS IS I suppose, though I believe you are STILL A BIT SCEPTICAL, and if you are still a bit skeptical regarding darkness as a being, how would you be regarding

    WHO THIS DEEP DARKNESS IS THEN?

    Just read another scripture, this time regarding DARKNESS, as for God it doesn’t make any difference, DARKNESS OR DEEP DARKNESS, since ALL IN/BY “THE WORD” which in this case is very familiar to you I suppose since it is mentioned in

    Isaiah 42:16 And I will lead the blind into

    THE WAY WHICH THEY KNOW NOT:

    WHO ARE THE BLIND?

    ISRAEL, THE GENTILES, or BOTH?

    How will God LEADS THEM into the way WHICH THEY KNOW NOT?

     and in the paths

    WHICH THEY WERE IGNORANT OF I WILL MAKE THEM WALK:

    The same with the above, HOW GOD MAKES THEM WALK THE PATHS WHICH THEY WERE IGNORANT OF? Here it comes:

    I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT

    BEFORE THEM,

     and crooked things straight:

    these things have I done to them, and have not forsaken them.

    NOW WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT THE ABOVE ESPECIALLY

     “I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT”

     IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS’ GLORY ON HIS DEATH, WHERE DARKNESS WAS JESUS. Isaiah 53:9,

    IN FRONT OF THE GENTILES!

    Now in view of the above:

    AREN’T DARKNESS and DEEP DARKNESS TITLES?

    AREN’T  DARKNESS and DEEP  DARKNESS BEINGS? 

    ISN’T DARKNESS in Genesis 1:2, Daniel 2:22, and Isaiah 42:16 THE SAME DARKNESS, but also NOT?

    You: the first thing God created was “light.”

    Me: NOT QUITE, THAT WAS A REFERENCE TO JESUS, WITHIN THE PROCESS OF CREATION AS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD. ALL IN/BY HIM.  THE PHYSICAL LIGHT WAS CREATED ON THE FOURTH DAY.

    Then God separated the “light” from the “darkness.”

    THERE YOU ARE, GOD SEPARATED THE STATE OF THE SPIRITUAL DARKNESS OF THE PROCESS OF CREATION CAUSED BY THE REBELLIOUS ANGELS AGAIN THROUGH/BY “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB…..Rev.13:8

    THUS, SEPARATED FROM  THE SPIRITUAL LIGHT OF THE PROCESS OF CREATION ESTABLISHED BY THE HEAVENLY ANGELS  ALL IN THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, WHO JOINED THE CREATION PROCESS BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, BETWEEN LIGHT AND DARKNESS! Well asserted in

    Joihn4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he that soweth, and he that reapeth, may rejoice together. 37For in this is the saying true: That it is one man that soweth, and it is another that reapeth

    38I have sent you to reap that in which you did not labour:

    others have laboured,

    and you have entered into their labours.

    You: What exactly are you looking for?!?

    Me: THE TRUTH!

    You: Then you somehow believe because the “light” is “with” God that it too is a separate being. 

    Me: “THE LIGHT IS WITH GOD”  IS A CLEAR REFERENCE ALSO TO JESUS,

    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD,  

    JESUS ETERNALLY WAS WITH GOD THE FATHER AND VICE VERSA.

    THE FACT THAT GOD KNOWS WHAT IS IN DARKNESS IS PRECISELY THE TRUTH THAT JESUS, IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD ENGRAFTED AS A SPIRIT IN ALL CREATURES’ HEARTS, AS ETERNAL LIFE, IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION ALL IN/BY HIM. THUS, WHATEVER THE FATHER PRONOUNCES FROM WITHIN JESUS’ HEART, JESUS FULFILLS INSTANTLY IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION. Well hinted out in

    John8:23 And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I AM HE, you shall die in your sin. 25They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you. 26Many things I have to speak and to judge of you. But he that sent me, is true:

    AND THE THINGS I HAVE HEARD OF HIM, these same I speak in the world.

    This now twice I have answered your question of what the “darkness” means. What more can I say before you enlighten us with you vast “wisdom” that you claim comes from above?

    To which I must ask, where in the OT does it state the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind? Why won’t you answer that question?

    ME: FIRST AND FOREMOST, PROPHECIES ARE NEVER SPECIFICALLY CLEAR WORD FOR WORD!

    NOW, SINCE YOU REJECTED WHATEVER OTHERS HAVE SAID, WHAT’S THE USE OF WASTING OUR TIME REPEATING?

    Also here is

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: 

    AND THIS IS MY QUESTION:

    BY WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #944003
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene

    Obviously my understanding isn’t correct; so please fix it.

    I have told you who is speaking where, now it’s your turn. Who is speaking in these places:

    Isa 52:13-15 –

    Isa 53:1-9 –

    Isa 53:10-12 –

    As you answer who’s speaking above, make sure you are including with your understanding what’s happening in 52:1-12?

    Analyzing what you said and tell me if it makes sense. If Isaiah was speaking of his and Judah’s sins, then the sins the servant died for where only for Isaiah’s and Judah’s; how then do we as none Jews factor into this? Verse 1 asks “who will believe our report”; this “our” is Isaiah and Judah? What is this report that is so unbelievable? Since part of this “servant song” is in the previous chapter, who or what “startled many nations”…the sins of Isaiah and Judah? These other kingdoms cared why? Startled to the point they are speechless…the sins of Isaiah and Judah? These kings will see what they haven’t been told and understand what they haven’t heard? We haven’t begun matching up the pronouns…

    No one has explained when Jesus offered his soul in restitution, what sin was he guilty of? He didn’t live long, he didn’t have any children, and the purpose of God prospered in his hands, how? Explain verse 11 and how that fits Jesus, knowledge justifies? What portion of the great were divided to Jesus and what did Jesus divide with the mighty, I thought he lived a lowly life?

    Your second paragraph is the key to understanding what is being said; this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. You then say it’s incumbent of me to “prove” the suffering servant is Israel; I have already explained it and it’s written in the previous chapters who the servant is. So it’s not incumbent of me to prove anything, all you have to do is read.

    #944004
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny

    You copy/pasted someone else’s comments from a website that has been proven to push falsehoods. GotQuestions is horrible and the man running it is a charlatan.

    So all you know is Ps 16, Ps 22, and Isa 53 as proof of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind; I have already explained each of these chapters and have shown how they could not be a reference to Jesus in any way, form, or fashion. Instead of parroting the words of someone else, use yours words and explain why these passages are a reference to Jesus.

    #944005
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Derailed Truth……Isaiah 53,  does not have a single plural noun mentioned in it concerning the suffering servant,  not one,  all expressions there are in the ‘Singular ”    Therefore it could not be Israel as a nation, or it would all be expressed in a “plural ” sense> your switching a singular expression of an individual “SOUL”  TO the PLURAL SOUL’S of Israel,  IS NOT INDICATED AT ALL IN ANY OF ISAIAH 53, IN REGARDS TO THE SUFFERING SERVANT, (singular), Not even one incident mentioned there, is a plural expression, not one.  So to force the text to say it is speaking of a  plurality of the nation of Israel is not right . IMO.

    where do you see ISRAEL AS A SINGLE SUFFERING SERVANT at even in chapter 52,  I can’t find that when reading it.  Please explain to us I might be missing something but I can see it, so please spell it out for us Ok .

    peace and love to you all and yours Desire Truth……….gene

    #944006
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth   Sorry,  I meant to say a  “Plural” expression of Israel as a single nation who is God’s “suffering” servant as mentioned in Isa 52. No where does it say Israel is or was God’s “suffering” servant in any scripture  in the Old Testament.  Israel suffered alright,  but it was because of heir own sins, not for anyone else’s ,  this is confirmed over and over, every where in the Old Testament. IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

     

    #944007
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene

    Now we resort to name calling…

    If all you are going to do is reject without verifying, this becomes a waste of time and time for me is all too precious. If you are hung up on the plurality of the words, you really need to start reading in chapter 41 and you will discover how God speaks of HIS servant in the singular. I’m not “forcing” anything; I’m just reading.

    You didn’t answer who you believe is speaking where in the “Servant Song.” I mentioned reading chapter 52 to put 53 into context, not to look for the “suffering servant.”

    Hopefully you will read the below verses:

    Isa 41:8 “But thou, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend; 9 Thou whom I have taken hold of from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the uttermost parts thereof, and said unto thee: ‘Thou art My servant, I have chosen thee and not cast thee away’” singular wording and the servant is Israel/Jacob

    Isa 42:1 “Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon him, he shall make the right to go forth to the nations.” Still speaking in the singular of the “My servant” (note the “he” and “him”).

    Isa 42:18 “Hear, ye deaf, and look, ye blind, that ye may see. 19 Who is blind, but My servant? Or deaf, as My messenger that I send? Who is blind as he that is wholehearted, and blind as HaShem’S servant?” Still speaking in the singular of “My servant” and will you claim this “servant” is Jesus too?

    Isa 43:10 “Ye are My witnesses, saith HaShem, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no G-d formed, neither shall any be after Me. 11 I, even I, am HaShem; and beside Me there is no saviour.” God uses both the plural and singular to refer to whom HE has chosen. Who did God choose in Isa 41:8, Israel/Jacob.

    Isa 44:1 “Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen; 2 Thus saith HaShem that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun (a poetic name for Israel), whom I have chosen.” Uh oh, God made a mistake and is now calling Jacob “My servant” and Israel his chosen or are Jacob and Israel one in the same!?

    Isa 44:21 “Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for thou art My servant; I have formed thee, thou art Mine own servant; O Israel, thou shouldest not forget Me.”

    Isa 45:4 “For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel Mine elect, I have called thee by thy name, I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known Me.”

    Isa 49:1 “HaShem hath called me…3 And He said unto me: ‘Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’”

    Are you seeing it yet?

    #944008
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    GotQuestions is a very good website.
    All you can do is to slander like your father the devil.
    Anyway, you didn’t refute those Bible verses at all.
    Nothing you said makes any sense.
    It’s time to shake the dust off my feet and move on.

    #944009
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny

    So what you are really saying is you can’t explain those chapters in your own words and rely on others to tell you what to believe. Now it makes sense!

    #944010
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    He shall see of the labor of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;👉 for he shall bear their iniquities.👈.

    [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;

    👉because he hath poured out his soul unto death:👈 and he was numbered with the transgressors; 👉👉and he bare the sin of many,👈 and made intercession for the transgressors.👈

    …..he bare the sin of many….

    How can you say that Jacob/Israel Can “bare the sin of many” and “made intercession for the transgressors.”
    when he is a sinerman and needs a savior?

    Even a restored “Israel”, how can it fulfill prophecy?

     

    #944012
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….I agree with Berean,  on this one,  you do need to show us in what “WAY”  has Israel died or suffered for “OUR” INIQUITIES and SINS, then, seeing you insist the nation of Israel was the one being addressed in chapter 53, right?   You haven’t produced a single scripture that supports Israel “bearing anyone’s sins and iniquities, but their own sin and iniquities,  much less anyone else’s, . All scriptures support this in the Old Testament ,  the nation of Israel paid the price of their own sins,  not any one else’s.  IMO

    God is “NOT’,  unjust,  everyone pays for his own sin and iniquities, not someone else’s sins. The whole concept that someone else pay for your sins, is a LIE,  we all pay for our own sins.  Jesus was the only one who died without sin of his own.  He was the one who “demonstrated” to us all,  what is required by us all, to have a right relationship with God the Father .

     The nation of Israel never demonstrated any right relationship with God,  they were a rebellious nation, who rebelled against God  and followed the God’s  of the nations that surrounded them.  And God also said,  “the kingdom of Judah, was even more treacherous than the kingdom of Israel was.  Jer 3:11.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene

    #944014
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene


    @Berean

    You aren’t listening to my words; nowhere have I implied Israel died for anyone’s sins. Go back to some previous posts and re-read. You and Berean are trying to merge two separate ideas – what I am reading in this passage and what you believe the passages states.

    You still haven’t told me who you believe is speaking in the following verses:

    Isa 52:13-15 –

    Isa 53:1-9 –

    Isa 53:10-12 –

    Once we establish this we can continue the conversation as it is key to understanding what is really happening within this “song.”

    No comment on who the “servant” is in the list of verses in my last post to you? Isa 53:11 God says “My righteous servant”…why did HE say his servant was “righteous” here?

    #944015
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    He shall see of the labor of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;👉 for he shall bear their iniquities.👈.

    [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;

    👉because he hath poured out his soul unto death:👈 and he was numbered with the transgressors; 👉👉and he bare the sin of many,👈 and made intercession for the transgressors.👈

    …..he bare the sin of many….

    👉Who is the one in this verse who “bare the sin of many?👈

     

     

    #944024
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean

    You don’t read the end of the book, you start at the beginning, and to understand this “ending” one must understand the “beginning.” All must be put into context. Who is speaking where in this “song”? Once we have this established we will move on.

    Also, who is the “servant” spoken of starting in chapter 41? If you are unsure, please reread post #944007.

    #944026
    Berean
    Participant

     

    @Desire Truth

    You

    Also, who is the “servant” spoken of starting in chapter 41? If you are unsure, please reread post #944007.

     

    Me

    Undoubtedly it is Jacob that is in question… in post #944007. BUT JACOB IS NOT THE ONLY ONE TO BE CALLED MY SERVANT….

    THERE IS ONE WHO IS ABOVE ALL SERVANTS, AND THIS WE SEE HIM MENTIONED IN ISAIAH 49

    isa.49

    [1] Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made 👉mention of my name.👈
    [2] And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
    [3] And said unto me, Thou art my servant, 👉O Israel👈, in whom I will be glorified.
    [4] Then I said, I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
    👇👇👇
    [5] <span style=”color: #3366ff;”>And now, know the LORD that formed me (see v.1)from the womb TO BE HIS SERVANT,</span>
    👇👇👇
    👉<span style=”color: #ff0000;”>TO BRING JACOB AGAIN TO HIM,</span>👈
    👆👆👆
    Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
    👇👇👇
    6] And he said, It is a light thing that👉 thou shouldest be <span style=”color: #0000ff;”>MY SERVANT</span>
    👉to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel:👈
    👇👇👇
    I will also give thee for👉 a light to the Gentiles, 👈that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.👈

    desire Truth, who is this servant in charge of “to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: AND to be a light to The gentils (Is.49:6)👈

     

    #944027
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Go away, Satan!

    #944028
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @danny,

    What an exemplary display of “Christ like” love!

    Remember, you have choice to participate in the conversation or ignore it; I can’t make that decision for you.

    Have a great day!

    #944029
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……Again Berean has brought out scriptures that back the point of who the servant of God really was,  it was the one that would “restore Israel” ,  not Israel itself.  Right.  so with that in view the prophesy in Isa 53,  could not be referring to the nation of Israel it self. The nation of Israel never did any of those things mentioned in Isaiah 53.
    Jesus is the one God will use to restore Israel and the Gentiles also IMO. I really don’t think you are realizing the Jews Rejected Jesus, both then and now as the true Messiah , so naturally their scholars will tweak the text to favor their views .  Jesus Christ is and was the stuffing servant of God, no matter what those Jews say.  Don’t let them fool you brother, they rejected Jesus and had him crucified , his blood was and is on their head, just as they said …..Matt 27:25…..”then  answered all the people, and said,  his blood be on us and on our children” , and so it was on and is on them> IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene

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