John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,461 through 24,480 (of 25,998 total)
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  • #944083
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    @Carmel,

    I Corinthians 15:3-4 are the verses in question; Paul stated “according to scripture” (meaning this is in the OT) and it’s the claim “the Messiah dying for the sins of mankind” and “being buried and raised on the third day.” I am asking for the verses in the OT that support Paul’s statement.

    If what Paul states isn’t in the OT, we have a problem.

    Me: Here is

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: 

    I asked you:

    FROM WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?

    Paul CONFIRMED above that what he delivered,

    HE ALSO RECEIVED!

    I ASK YOU AGAIN:

    WHO FURNISHED PAUL WITH WHAT HE DELIVERED AND SAID PRECISELY

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures?

    I REPEAT: THE ABOVE DIDN’T ORIGINATE FROM PAUL BUT FROM SOMEONE ELSE!

    WHO IS THIS SOMEONE ELSE?

    Now, I recall your statement back on page 1217 #943782

    You: There’s that pesky “according to scripture” statement from Paul.

    Now find it in the old testament!

     

    WHAT CONVINCED YOU THAT PAUL REFERRED TO THE OLD TESTAMENT?

    WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE THAT AT LEAST ONE OF THE GOSPELS, OR MORE PRECISELY THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES, MOST PROBABLY LUKE, WAS NOT AT LEAST PRODUCED BEFORE PAULS’ DEATH BUT NOT YET PUBLICIZED, AND PARTICULARLY PAUL ANTICIPATED HISTORY AND CALLED IT SCRIPTURES?

    Now I leave you to PONDER on the SCRIPTURES hereunder:

    Galatians 1:11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was

    preached by me is not according to man.

    12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it;

     but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
     

    2Corinthians 12: If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed):

     but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

    2I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): 4That he was caught up into paradise,

    and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter.

    In what sense “It is NOT GRANTED TO MAN, PAUL,

     TO UTTER?”

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #944084
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    YOU: WHAT CONVINCED YOU THAT PAUL REFERRED TO THE OLD TESTAMENT?

    ME The only scripture available to them in the 1st century was the tanach, the Jewish writings that we today call the “old testament.” What we call the “new testament” didn’t get canonized and become the “new testament” for almost 400 years after Jesus, thus wasn’t “scripture” to Paul. So when Paul states “according to scripture” or when “as it is written” is used in the “new testament”, it is speaking of the “old testament.” That is how I’m “convinced” Paul is speaking about the “old testament.” Nothing spiritual, nothing divine to be found here; just simple words put into context as they were written. With this understanding, find what Paul stated in the OT.

    Now explain this:

    John 3:14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;”

    Num 21:9 “Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.”

    II King 18:14 “He (Hezekiah) removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.”

    Jesus states he must be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness that Moses made so the people could look upon it and be healed if they had been bitten by a snake. Then under king Hezekiah this bronze snake is destroyed because the people of Israel had created an idol and were burning incense to it. This seems to be an odd comparison for Jesus to make concerning himself when the object was destroyed because of idol worship. Am I only suppose to look at the “on a pole” portion of the story and ignore the rest? I have no doubts one will be able to explain this away; however, what can’t be ignored is the comparison Jesus used was eventually destroyed because of idol worship, worship of an object that took the focus off the one true God, the creator of heaven and earth.

    #944092
    Berean
    Participant

    @ désire Truth

    The brazen serpent had no virtue IN ITSELF, BUT IT WAS WHAT IT REPRESENTED THAT HAD THE POWER TO SAVE.
    Thereafter Hezekiah had it destroyed BECAUSE THE PEOPLE HAD MADE IT AN OBJECT OF IDOLATRY, NOT HAVING UNDERSTANDED WHAT IT MEANS.
    Again this brazen serpent had no virtue in itself, but it was, I believe, WHAT IT REPRESENTED THAT HAD.
    In fact, he represented the crucified Christ who was made sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.(2Cor.5:21)

     

    Galatians 3:13
    Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us-for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree, –
    👇
    Deuteronomy 21
    22 If a man is put to death who has committed a crime worthy of death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not lie on the tree overnight; but you will bury him the same day, 👉 because he who is hanged is an object of curse with God, 👈 and you will not defile the land which the Eternal, your God, gives you for inheritance.

    🙏

    #944093
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….Who was Jesus “obeying”,  When he poured out his soul to death”? Was it not God himself?,  , so knowing that , then it becomes clear that Jesus in “OBEDIENCE” to the “Will”,  of God the Father, if you know that, then it is also clear that, it was God the Father who suffered him to do that,  and made his soul a sacrifice . Simple and very clear  Supported by many scriptures,……..”GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD , THAT HE “GAVE “. HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.  Gave him for what? , to death, because of the sin and iniquities of us all,  to “demonstrate ” to us all, the obedience required to be an actual Son of God,  I say again, not to do it all, in place of us having to do it, as false “Christianity” teaches,  but to “DEMONSTRATE ”  to us all,  what it requires for us all, to become  true, Sons of God.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

     

     

    #944094
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You still cannot ignore the fact that what Jesus compared himself to was destroyed because it was made into an idle. So for you it is just the “pole” that matters.

    HOWEVER!!!! You have failed to respond to what I said to you concerning Acts 8. What is your response to the blatant manipulation of the OT? This only one example, I can give you many. I also asked how many times can the OT be manipulated to fit the NT narrative before it’s no longer “the inspired word of God”?

    #944095
    carmel
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Me: WHAT CONVINCED YOU THAT PAUL REFERRED TO THE OLD TESTAMENT?

    You: The only SCRIPTURE available to them in the 1st century was the tanach, the Jewish writings that we today call the “old testament.”

    Me: Paul used the word “SCRIPTURE”.

    It is not enough proof that he was definitely referring to the Old Testament!

    Since the word SCRIPTURE is used, it refers to something written. There is no example of oral tradition being called Scripture.

    The word Scripture, when used in the New Testament, always refers to something written.

    THUS Paul referred to something WRITTEN NOT TO THE OLD TESTAMENT.

    Now, Read again what I posted please:

    Me: Here is

    1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,

    which I also received:

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: 

    I asked you:

    FROM WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?

    Paul CONFIRMED above that what he delivered,

    HE ALSO RECEIVED!

    I ASK YOU AGAIN:

    WHO FURNISHED PAUL WITH WHAT HE DELIVERED AND SAID PRECISELY

    how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures?

    I REPEAT: THE ABOVE DIDN’T ORIGINATE FROM PAUL BUT FROM SOMEONE ELSE!

    WHO IS THIS SOMEONE ELSE?

    AGAIN:

    I leave you to PONDER on the SCRIPTURES hereunder:

     

    Galatians 1:11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was

    preached by me is not according to man.

    12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it;

     but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

     

    2Corinthians 12: If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed): 

    but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

    2I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): 4That he was caught up into paradise,

    and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter.

    In what sense “It is NOT GRANTED TO MAN, PAUL,

     TO UTTER?”

    You: Now explain this:

    John 3:14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;”

    Num 21:9 “Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.”

    II King 18:14 “He (Hezekiah) removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.”

    Jesus states he must be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness that Moses made so the people could look upon it and be healed if they had been bitten by a snake. Then under king Hezekiah this bronze snake is destroyed because the people of Israel had created an idol and were burning incense to it.

    This seems to be an odd comparison for Jesus to make concerning himself when the object was destroyed because of idol worship

    Me: Go back to page 1222,  and read hereunder what I posted, which it seems quite clear to me that you completely IGNORED!

    Obviously, it is not within your understanding in every respect!

     

    Isaiah 42:16 And I will lead the blind into

    THE WAY WHICH THEY KNOW NOT:

    WHO ARE THE BLIND?

    ISRAEL, THE GENTILES, or BOTH?

    How will God LEADS THEM into the way WHICH THEY KNOW NOT?

     and in the paths

    WHICH THEY WERE IGNORANT OF I WILL MAKE THEM WALK:

    The same with the above, HOW GOD MAKES THEM WALK THE PATHS WHICH THEY

    WERE IGNORANT OF? Here it comes:

     

    I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT
    BEFORE THEM,

    and crooked things straight:
    these things have I done to them, and have not forsaken them.

    NOW WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT THE ABOVE ESPECIALLY

     “I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT”

     IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS’ GLORY ON HIS DEATH,

    WHERE DARKNESS WAS JESUS. Isaiah 53:9,

    IN FRONT OF THE GENTILES!

    YOU; This seems to be an odd comparison for Jesus

    to make concerning himself

    when the object was destroyed

    because of idol worship

    Me: Here it comes again to ponder:

    NOW WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT THE ABOVE ESPECIALLY

    “I WILL MAKE DARKNESS LIGHT”
     

    IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS’ GLORY ON HIS DEATH,

    WHERE DARKNESS WAS JESUS. Isaiah 53:9,

    I will make it AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL TO YOU AND ASK YOU!

     

    FOR YOU, CARNALLY MINDED PERSON, IN EVERY RESPECT:

    IS IT STILL ODD FOR JESUS TO COMPARE HIMSELF WITH

    SOMETHING WHICH WAS DESTROYED!

    ANOTHER QUESTION!

    WHO IN ACTUAL FACT WAS DESTROYED ON THE CROSS!

    THE SERPENT SATAN?

    JESUS’BODY? OR

    BOTH JESUS’BODY AND SATAN PRECISELY LOCKED WITHIN JESUS’BODY!

    BOTH DARKNESS and 

    THE SERPENT!

    WHILE JESUS WAS IN HIS FULL GLORY AS

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN! John13:31,32, 

    You: Am I only suppose to look at the “on a pole” portion of the story

    and ignore the rest?

    Me: YOU DON’T EVEN UNDERSTAND 

    The “ON A POLE” PORTION 

    HOW ON EARTH WOULD YOU BE IN THE POSITION TO UNDERSTAND THE

    REST?

    NEVER MIND IGNORE!

    I have no doubts one will be able to explain this away; however, what can’t be ignored is the comparison Jesus used was eventually destroyed

    2Corinthians 12:9 And he said to me:

    My grace is sufficient for thee;

    for power is made perfect in infirmity.

    Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10For which cause I please myself in my infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ.

    For when I am weak, then am I powerful.

    You: because of idol worship, worship of an object that took the focus off

    the one true God, the creator of heaven and earth.

     

    Me: NOW WHAT WAS THE FOCUS WHEN JESUS WAS  DEAD ON THE

    POLE?

    I TELL YOU AGAIN WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT 

    IT’S YOUR PIGEON!

    THE FOCUS WAS ON

    THE ONLY TRUE GODMAN ON EARTH,

    THE RECREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH,

    AND THE FATHER OF IT! ATTENTION PLEASE:

    Johnn20:17Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me,

    for I am not yet ascended to (THE GLORY OF) my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to

    (THE GLORY OF) my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    BY HIS OWN BLOOD FOR THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER!

    AS THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO DIE!

     

    NO JESUS NO GOD!

    NO GOD NO JESUS!

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father;

    and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is,

    but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #944113
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    The verse doesn’t say “when” he poured…; it says “because” he poured. This conjunction ties into the first part of the verse, “Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” BECAUSE “he poured out his soul.” What was given Jesus from the many and what did Jesus divide with the strong? If we are honest, nothing. So how can this be referring to Jesus?

    Verse 12 is still contingent on what was said in verse 10, if the servant offers his soul as a guilt (asham) offering and “because” he does, the “spoils” are given him. You keep asking me questions, but not answering mine; you keep moving this goal post in what I believe is the hope that somehow I will starting seeing what I used to believe. I used to believe as you until I started studying the words that are written. I believed as you because this is what I was told was truth and why would I think the source of this would lie?

    #944114
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Your writing format is to difficult to follow and I don’t have time to read one liners and decipher what you’re trying to say, try paragraph format, it’s how the rest of the world actually writes.

     

    YOU: Paul used the word “SCRIPTURE”.

    It is not enough proof that he was definitely referring to the Old Testament!

    Since the word SCRIPTURE is used, it refers to something written. There is no example of oral tradition being called Scripture.

    The word Scripture, when used in the New Testament, always refers to something written.

    THUS Paul referred to something WRITTEN NOT TO THE OLD TESTAMENT.

     

    ME: The Greek for scripture is “graphe”

    It’s usage is: (a) a writing, (b) a passage of scripture; plural: the scriptures.

    Strong’s word study:

    *1124 graphḗ – properly, writing. 1124 (graphḗ) is used 51 times in the NT – always of holy Scripture, i.e. the inspired, inerrant writings of the Bible (the 66 books of Scripture, 39 in Hebrew, 27 in Greek).

    *The NT generally uses 1124 (graphḗ) for the Hebrew Scriptures (the OT)

     

    So if “graphe” is used to refer to the Hebrew Scripture and the NT didn’t exist at the time of Paul’s writing; then Paul was explicitly referring to what was written in the OT. Oh wait, “graphe” is “generally used” to refer to the OT; this time what Paul is writing he’s not referring to the OT but to one of his previous writing. So where is this other writing that is suppose to be “prophesying” about the messiah and how can it be substantiated? Try again!

    Sounds like you’re having difficultly finding in the OT what Paul claimed to be written of the Messiah, so you are trying your hardest to justify what was written. You can keep you mysticism or whatever you call it; because it definitely isn’t “from above.”

    I skimmed the rest of what you wrote; you need to read Isa 42:10-17 and put verse 16 into context, all that needs to be said on that subject. Then you said something about Satan being locked in Jesus’s body and about spit my drink at my computer screen. Then “godman” came up again (no such thing in scripture) and I checked out.

    Now I am really curious about what faith you identify with, because most of what you are saying is new to me and sounds a little cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

    #944115
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi to a all

    Here is a commentary on “The Messiah’s work and reward.”

     

    God bless

     

    Isaiah 53

    (12) The Messiah’s work and reward.

    Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
    And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    Because He poured out His soul unto death,
    And He was numbered with the transgressors,
    And He bore the sin of many,
    And made intercession for the transgressors.

    a. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong: The Messiah’s glorious work will be rewarded. With the image of dividing the spoil after a victorious battle, we see that the Messiah ultimately triumphs.

    i. Paul described this ultimate triumph in Philippians 2:10-11: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. That is a glorious reward.

    ii. “It is a strange fact that I am going to declare, but it is not less true than strange: according to our text the extraordinary glories of Christ, as Saviour, have all been earned by his connection with human sin. He has gotten his most illustrious splendour, his brightest jewels, his divinest crowns, out of coming into contact with this poor fallen race.” (Spurgeon)

    iii. In the end, the sufferings and humiliation of Jesus only bring Him more glory and majesty! “I do see that out of this dunghill of sin Christ has brought this diamond of his glory by our salvation. If there had been no sinners, there could not have been a Saviour. If no sin, no pouring out of the soul unto death; and if no pouring out of the soul unto death, no dividing a portion with the great. If there had been no guilt, there had been no act of expiation. In the wondrous act of expiation by our great Substitute, the Godhead is more gloriously revealed than in all the creations and providences of the divine power and wisdom.” (Spurgeon)

    iii. In the end, the sufferings and humiliation of Jesus only bring Him more glory and majesty! “I do see that out of this dunghill of sin Christ has brought this diamond of his glory by our salvation. If there had been no sinners, there could not have been a Saviour. If no sin, no pouring out of the soul unto death; and if no pouring out of the soul unto death, no dividing a portion with the great. If there had been no guilt, there had been no act of expiation. In the wondrous act of expiation by our great Substitute, the Godhead is more gloriously revealed than in all the creations and providences of the divine power and wisdom.” (Spurgeon)

    iv. Who does the Messiah divide the spoil with? With the strong; those strong in Him. We can share in the spoil of Jesus’ victory! If children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Romans 8:17)

    b. Because He poured out His soul unto death: This speaks of the totality of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. Poured out means that it was all gone. There was nothing left, nothing more He could give.

    i. “‘He hath poured out his soul unto death.’ I will say no more about it, except that you see how complete it was. Jesus gave poor sinners everything. His every faculty was laid out for them. To his last rag he was stripped upon the cross. No part of his body or of his soul was kept back from being made a sacrifice. The last drop, as I said before, was poured out till the cup was drained. He made no reserve: he kept not back even his innermost self: ‘He hath poured out his soul unto death.’” (Spurgeon)

    c. He was numbered with the transgressors: Jesus could never become a sinner; He could never be a transgressor Himself. Yet willingly, loving, He was numbered with the transgressors. Is there a roll call taken for transgressors? Jesus says, “Put My name down with them.” We would be shocked if a godly woman looked at a list of prostitutes and said, “Put my name down among them.” Or what if a godly man looked at a list of murderers and said, “Number me among them.” But that is what Jesus did for us, only to an even greater degree.

    d. He bore the sin of many: Over and over again, the prophet emphasizes the point. The Servant of the LORD, the Messiah, suffers on behalf of and in the place of guilty sinners.

    e. And made intercession for the transgressors: We know that presently, Jesus has a ministry of intercession (Hebrews 7:25). But Hebrews 7:25 speaks of intercession for the saints. This passage probably refers to Jesus’ prayers on the cross itself.

    i. This means the work of the Messiah is made available to transgressors. It is when we see ourselves as transgressors that we can reach out and receive His salvation.

     

    🙏

    #944116
    Nick
    Participant

    All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

    Jesus came for sinners so we would be wise to number ourselves among them.

     

    #944117
    Nick
    Participant

    It is a trustworthy saying that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. Yet for this reason I found mercy so that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate his perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in him for eternal life.

    it is a level playing field and not even the apostles have an advantage over you and I.

    Do not die in your sins but find safety in him.

    #944122
    Nick
    Participant

    Men focus on men.

    But the aim of God is to show what amazin things He can work through men when He is  allowed to indwell their vessels and use them.

    focus folks it is all about Him, not the human vessels.

    #944123
    Nick
    Participant

    Men of Israel, listen to these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst just as you yourselves know-

    even the Master.

    #944124
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick…….Amen brother. Jesus “demonstrated” to all humanity what it takes to please God the Father,  we must all become exactly like him, and with the Spirit of God in us we all can become exactly the same as Jesus himself is,  just as he said, “whosoever overcomes even as I have, I will grant to set with me in my kingdom, even as I have overcome and am sit down in my Fathers kingdom.”  And again….John 4:17…..” Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment : because as he is, “SO ARE WE”, in this world”.

    THE REQUIREMENT IS THE SAME WITH US AS IT WAS WITH JESUS OUR LORD. we must all come to the point of putting our “Will’s” to death and do the Will of God the Father, the same as Jesus did.  

    peace and love to you and yours Nick………gene

     

    #944125
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….Ok, I used the word when, because it was a “prophesied” event, but changing it doesn’t change anything,  there is not one scholar that I know of that doesn’t  think it was not a prophesied event.  Need proof?

    Isa 53:2…… “for he shall” ,  and “when he shall see him”

    Isa 53:10…..”when” thou shall make his Soul” , “he “shall” see, “he “shall” prolong”, “and the pleasure of the LORD “shall” prosper, ”

    All these are speaking of future events and more are, throughout the the verses,  as I said Desire Truth, there is absolutely no one, that I know of, that doesn’t think  Isaiah 53 is not speaking in a futuristic sense, no one ! , Don’t let anyone fool you that scripture is not talking about the nation of Israel or the kingdom of Judah,  at all> IMO.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene

     

     

    #944129
    Nick
    Participant

    Yes Gene,

    Jesus did the hard yards and if we follow him into rebirth of water and the Spirit as demonstrated in Acts we are joined with him in death and can know that like him we will be resurrected when he returns, or taken up alive if we have yet to taste death.,

    #944130
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene

    You still haven’t specified who is speaking where in Isa 53. KJV is one of a few versions that specify a future tense in verse 2 and I have already established the KJV is corrupt because it does change the tenses of words and thus changes the meanings of what is being conveyed; hence needs to be thrown into the trash bin of history.

    You still haven’t explained verse 10, and you are correct this is in the future tense as it has yet to happen. Please tell me how the seed of Jesus prospered, how his life was prolonged, or how the will of God succeeded in his hand. All three of these blessings are linked together; they all happen together after the big “IF” of offering his soul. You still haven’t explained this “guilt (asham) offering”; aren’t we taught Jesus was sinless? Words have meanings…

    I am still waiting of anyone to show me where in the OT I Cor 15:3,4 is stated. Again, have you verified anything I have written or have you simple disregarded it because it doesn’t align with what you have been told to believe? Remember, I was where you are a couple months ago and everything flipped, because I took the time to verify what I was told was truth.

    #944131
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….You ask who was speaking  here is your answer,  … Heb 1:1…“God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, as in these last days spoken to us by his son ……>” 

    Even though the KJV does have errors in it translations , it still is considered the best over all study Bible in existence as I understand it. If you ave rejected the KJV, fine, the read the YLT, or any of the other translations out there, many translations out there most are summerly translated.
    Desire Truth,   The context of those scripture does not fit the Nation of Israel or the Jews at all. That is obvious , to anyone who knows the history of nation of Israel and the Jews also.  So knowing that, then it is incumbent upon you to explain to us who   is Isaiah 53. talking about.   I don’t recall you ever telling us who it is “specifically” speaking about.  Please tell us and explain to us how you reached that conclusion.   You’re contradicting our assumptions, but not telling us who it is talking about then.  Do you even believe it is a “prophesy”. Or not?   To say we need to throw out our New Testament bibles and Just go by what is in the Old Testament is sure madness. While Paul did tell us to ‘confirm what we are told by the Old Testament, he certainly did not say that the Old Testament was superior to what he and the other Apostles were saying.  He simply was say what they were hearing should aline with the  Old Testament scriptures.  Not that every thing they were hearing was wrong.

    What Mark, Matthew, Luke and John , Peter , James, And Paul wrote, most certainly matches what is written in the Old Testament scriptures, as far as I am concerned.

    To me brother , it like you’re throwing out the baby with the wash.  Don’t let those Jewish scholars ( who’s decedents killed our Lord Jesus), throw you off brother,  they do not want to bare the guilt of there own words,  “let his blood be upon us and our children”.

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire truth………gene

    #944132
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick……AMEN brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Nick……….gene

    #944133
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick……AMEN brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Nick……….gene

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