John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,161 through 24,180 (of 26,007 total)
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  • #943496
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    MICAH 5

    [2] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;👉 whose goings forth have been from of old, 👉 from everlasting.👈

      ✴️ ✴️✴️✴️✴️ ✴️   FROM

                            EVERLASTING

    ✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️

    #943498
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Danny,

    You haven’t explained why there is no agreement in what the new testament says, why every religion seems to have their own interpretation or understanding and will argue how their understanding is correct and your interpretation is wrong. I would call this confusion and my God is not a God of confusion, he is a God of order.

    You ask if God is able to protect his “word”, of course; BUT, what qualifies as God’s Word?

    You believe the King James is the “word of God”, but other translations aren’t? Confused as the Tyndale, Coverdale, Webster, Young’s Literal, and King James all come from the Textus Receptus, so which one is better? Which KJ translation do you use – 1611, 1769, or newer?

    What’s the real question you want to ask?

    #943500
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing.

    Me: Jodi, WITH EVERY RESPECT, God’s things, are definitely SPIRITUAL, AND AS I ALWAYS MADE CLEAR, THAT FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S WORK, AND ONLY HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL HIS WORK, EVEN AS FLESH, IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN, THUS YOU AND YOUR ALLIES,  PERSONS MORE  CARNALLY MINDED AND INTERESTED ONLY IN WORLDLY WISDOM, NEVERTHELESS Jodi, BY YOUR OWN WORDS IN THESE FORUMS, CONFIRM THAT SELF-PRIDE HAS POWER OVER YOU, I MEAN OVER YOUR SOUL, HENCE, IT IS  QUITE EVIDENT THAT DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU  DON’T POSSESS ADEQUATE MATURITY IN GOD’S WISDOM AND SPIRITUAL MYSTERIES, NEVERTHELESS  WITHOUT ANY HESITATION, YOU BY MOST OF YOUR PREACHING, AGAIN WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOU, PUT YOURSELF NOT ONLY IN AN AMBIGUOUS POSITION BUT, YOU COULDN’T CARE LESS IF BY YOUR PREACHING YOU DESTROY THE SUPPOSED REPUTATION  YOU HAVE IN THESE FORUMS. THIS IS CONFIRMED SIMPLY AS DESPITE YOU PRODUCE LOADS OF SCRIPTURES OF WHICH IN THE MAJORITY CONTRADICT YOU, IN CASES AS IN THE ABOVE YOU ARE NOT ONLY IN THE POSITION TO FURNISH  US A MERE VERSE TO SUPPORT YOUR CORRUPTED REASONING AND DELUSIONS BUT DESPITE SCRIPTURE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL YOU ARE SIMPLY NOT ONLY BLIND BUT CONFIRM THAT YOUR SPIRITUAL MATURITY IN GOD’S WORK, IN GENERAL, AFTER 2000 YEARS OF JESUS SPIRITUAL GOSPEL ON EARTH, A GOSPEL TOTALLY OPPOSITE TO THE OT. OF MOSES’ CARNAL LAW, TO BE CLEAR NOTHING IN RELATION TO THE FLESH AND BLOOD PROCESS ON THIS PLANET,

    YOU STILL LIVE ON MILK!

    Now to your BLINDNESS!

    You: The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing.

    I’ll give it STRAIGHT to you and your allies!

    NO, SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING IT IS NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL!

    NEVERTHELESS, IT IS

    TWO IN ONE KINGDOM!

    Now read again what I asked you in one of my posts, and reflect with the hope that the Holy Spirit will give THE LIGHT that you lack!

    You: This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him

    an eternal kingdom,

    HOW IS IT THAT THIS SUPPOSED ETERNAL KINGDOM PROMISED BY THE FATHER TO HIS SON,

    THIS SON OF MAN,

    WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, John 3:13

    AT THE VERY END IS GIVEN TO GOD,  TO BE
    ALL  IN ALL FOR ETERNITY?

    WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THIS SON OF MAN THEN, Jodi?

    WHERE WOULD THIS SON OF MAN, while God would be all in all,

    ENDS UP?

    HE DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL THRONE NO?

    AS ETERNAL KING! AGAIN, OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL KINGDOM?

    my question now is :

    WHY DID JESUS COME ON EARTH BOTH

    THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ!

     

     

    #943502
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean, you said……..>Gene

    MICAH 5

    [2] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;👉 whose goings forth have been from of old, 👉 from everlasting.👈
    ✴️ ✴️✴️✴️✴️ ✴️   FROM
    EVERLASTING
    me

    So tell us, did Bethlehem Ephratah and Judah also exist from “everlasting “.  Seeing that’s were this ruler was said,    “shall”  come from?   obviously if this ruler was to come from there and it was from everlasting, as you say,  then how is it you somehow can separate Jesus from he rest of the text.   YOU CAN’T! 

    Also the term “shall come” , is all “futuristic “,  and does not imply any past “existence at all.  The words “who’s going forth have been from of old, “from everlasting ” , shows the “whole thing is a prophetic statement”,  not just part of it, as you falsely suppose.

    Berean you should easily have understood that,   This is why I know you lack the Spirit of truth in you .

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #943503
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Had you truly believed Jesus, as I ask you, on the preceding post to you, about Jesus saying ” I am the root and “offspring ” of  David”,  you could have easily put it together with the scripture in Micah5:2 and understood it clearly.

    The Jesus you have been taught to believe in, is not, the Jesus of scripture Berean.  REPENT!

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #943504
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    NO, I do not believe that the Son of Man existed literally in the heavens and then came down to earth to be our savior.

    For you to even ask this question it is clear that you haven’t been reading the scriptures that I have provided and my statements applying them together.

    The Son of Man, born of the Spirit, was sent by God to be our savior and he came directly from God, down to us from heaven. 

    Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    Acts 2:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him…5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God…12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:..31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all…32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony…33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom GOD HATH SENT speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    In John 3,

    Nicodemus rightfully called Jesus a teacher COME FROM GOD, he was the prophet like unto Moses that God RAISED UP FROM AMONG HIS BRETHREN to teach God’s Word and those who believed in that Word would be saved. 

    Jesus taught that a man must be BORN OF the Spirit of God to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Jesus taught that the Son of Man came down from heaven, that he that cometh from above is above all and that he speaks heavenly things.

    We are told that he whom God SENT speaks the words of God for God giveth him the Spirit not by measure. 

    We are then immediately told that the Father loveth the Son and has given all things into his hands and he who believes in the heavenly things he teaches will have everlasting life. 

    John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom HE HATH SENT, him ye believe not.

    1 Chronicles 17  teaches us that God would become a Father unto a seed of David and that He would settle him into His kingdom. 

    Berean, 

    God would become a Father unto a Son of Man and God would settle him into His kingdom. Jesus said a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. 

    He whom God SENT speaks God’s word for he received the Spirit not by measure. He who taught GOD’S WORD, speaking not earthly words but HEAVENLY WORDS, had COME FROM GOD, or in other words had COME FROM HEAVEN. 

     God would raise unto Israel a savior of the seed of David, John preached of him BEFORE HIS COMING. Jesus said that he had received the Spirit to be SENT into the world to deliver captives, to set us at liberty, to save that which is lost. 

    The Son of Man was BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD at the river Jordan, with him being declared at that moment to be God’s Son. He was then SENT out into the world, not being of the world but being of heaven having come from God to be our savior and speak not earthly words but God’s words, heavenly things where those who believed in his word would be saved.  This man who was the only begotten of God’s Spirit without measure was settled into God’s kingdom where he sits at God’s right hand just as God had promised unto a son of David.

    #943505
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    The Son of Man, born of the Spirit, was sent by God to be our savior and he came directly from God, down to us from heaven.  

    Me

    That’s deceptive language you have.
    Jesus LITERALLY came down from Heaven where his Father was and at the resurrection he went back up to where he was before.
    THAT IS THE REAL TRUTH.

    John 16
    [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    Ephesians 4
    [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    These two verses are enough to understand that Jesus did come down from Heaven LITERALLY.

    🙏

    #943506
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Since you believe Jesus preexisted in heaven (no “new testament” in the first century) and the only verses ever used to support the claim are out of the “new testament”; please site old testament verses that support this claim.

    #943507
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    and the only verses ever used to support the claim are out of the “new testament”;

    Me

    The important thing is that we had this more advanced knowledge in due time by the new testament.

    First knowledge is in Proverbs 30
    that of course YOU BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY (we have already seen that)

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    The other is found in Daniel 3:

    [22] Therefore because the king’s commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.
    [23] And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
    [24] Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
    [25] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of👉 the fourth is like the Son of God.👈

    🙏

    [

    #943508
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Berean……DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus said …….

    “I am, the root and “OFFSPRING” OF DAVID?  

     please explain how Jesus could be the

    “offspring” of David,

    and still preexist his birth on the earth.  Show proof, not your

    “MORPHED “. mystery religion BS.

    Me: Presumably Gene, you believe that Jesus is

    BOTH THE ROOT and THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID! No?

    ISN’T IT A MYSTERY TO YOU THAT JESUS IN ONE INSTANT IS BOTH

    THE ROOT, HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN, and ALSO

    THE OFFSPRING, VISIBLE, AND KNOWN OF DAVID?

    A PERFECT PARADOX

    ALSO, THE FACT THAT IT IS A MYSTERY, ISN’T EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT YOU ARE NOT CONSISTENT REGARDING WHICH MYSTERIES YOU TAKE FOR GRANTED OR NOT?

    AREN’T THEY ALL MYSTERIES?

    Gene, UNAWARE OF WITH YOUR QUESTION YOU CONFIRMED THAT JESUS

    PREEXISTED BEFORE HE WAS 

    THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID!

    DID YOU GET IT? NO, YOU DIDN’T I’M AFRAID! I TELL YOU; READ YOUR QUESTION AGAIN PLEASE:

     

    You: please explain how Jesus could be

    the “offspring” of David,

    and still preexist his birth on the earth.  

    WHY DIDN’T YOU MENTION THE WORD

    “ROOT” IN THE ABOVE!

    WHAT HAPPENED Gene?

    Are you preoccupied with the word ROOT?

    Do you prefer to do without and in the same time you win your argument?

    JESUS IS NOT JUST THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID! OK?

    BUT HE IS BOTH THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID! NO?

    Let’s be clear:

    How can one person be alike the parent and the progeny of another?

    How can He originate and also receive existence!

    The Root may bear the branch; the branch may germinate from the Root; but they are essentially diverse. The Root and the topmost boughs cannot intertwine.

    Now, The Root, WHICH IS THE BEGINNING

    is that which, hidden and buried, like a treasure in a field, Matthew 13:44, is the spring and origin of life to trees and herbs and countless offspring of the garden and the plain. Thus, Jesus, ETERNAL LIFE, John 17:2,3 John 14:6, 1 John 5:20,  FROM THE BEGINNING, is the cause of life NOT ONLY TO DAVID BUT TO ALL.John1:3

    Jesus declared and said:

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself,

    so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 

    Hence the Root, THE BEGINNING, of David must be EITHER JESUS PREEXISTED OR GOD.

    BUT GOD IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO BE EITHER A MERE ROOT OR THE OFFSPRING OF ANY! NO?

    It stands to reason then, that Jesus, THE BEGINNING, PREEXISTED AS ETERNAL LIFE, WHO WAS WITH THE FATHER! Asserted hereunder:

    1John1:1That which was from the beginning,

    which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,

    of the word of life: 

    2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness,

    and declare unto you the life eternal,

    which was with the Father,

    and hath APPEARED to us:

    APPEARED; hence

    PREEXISTED!

    Conclusion:

    Jesus preexisted, and  As the Root/ETERNAL LIFE of David is

    GOD

    As His offspring is

    MAN 

    JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD WAS PREEXISTED AS THE SON OF MAN, 

    the physical embodiment of God!

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven. 

    IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER

    GODMAN! John17:5

    Gene, and who is in harmony with you and your teachings, read hereunder and  ponder please:

    Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand: Until I make thy enemies thy footstool.

     

    Matthew 22:41 And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42Saying: What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him: David’s. 43He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying:

    44The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

    45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

     46And no man was able to answer him a word; neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

     

    Mark 12:35 And Jesus answering, said, teaching in the temple: How do the scribes say, that Christ is the son of David?

    36For David himself saith by the Holy Ghost: The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool.

    37David therefore himself calleth him Lord, and whence is he then his son?

    And a great multitude heard him gladly.

     

    Luke 20:41 But he said to them: How say they that Christ is the son of David?

    42And David himself saith in the book of Psalms: The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou on my right hand,

    43Till I make thy enemies thy footstool. 

    44David then calleth him Lord: and how is he his son?

    ENJOY Gene and Co.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943509
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Those two verses are all you have for proof for a “preexisting Jesus”? Not sounding like a solid belief. I won’t rehash Prov 30 as we have been over it and you reject what scripture says in favor of your religious understanding.

    This statement I find humorous,

    You: “The important thing is that we had this more advanced knowledge in due time by the new testament.”

    Me: Thus rendering the old testament as a “lesser document” because of our superior knowledge the writers didn’t have when they recorded the word’s that came directly from God. Do you not see the arrogance or the danger of that statement?!? This is another lie told by the “church” to deceive people to submit to whatever flavor religion. The greatest con in all history is when Satan said Jesus was God at the Council of Nicea. I digress…

    Let’s look at Daniel, you quote chapter 3:22-25 and using pointy fingers to emphasize “like the Son of God.” To fully understand these words one must know who is speaking, The king (Nebuchadnezzar) asked his counselors “Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?” and it was they who responded with “like the Son of God.” Are you going to tell me these counselors knew they saw Jesus standing in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego?!?!? JESUS WASN’T TO BE KNOWN FOR ANOTHER 700-800 YEARS!!!! Please don’t tell me God “revealed” to them at this moment this other person was Jesus. Let me also point out, the KJV is one of a few versions that capitalize “son”, thus giving the impression that it’s somehow referring to Jesus when in fact it couldn’t possibly! This is CORRUPTION, with capital letters! Other translations render this phrase as “like a son of the gods”, which seems more appropriate considering these three are captive to the pagan empire Babylon and are in the fire because they refused to bow to the king’s golden statue.

    So why did you stopped at 25, why didn’t you continue on through verse 28? “Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego, who hath sent his angel, (need to find me some pointy fingers) and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.” (KJV) Who was the fourth person in the fire? It was an angel sent by God. Now before you go on about the angel being Jesus, do recall in Gen:6 2,4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 the term “sons of God” is used and who is being referenced, but the angels.

    How is this so difficult to understand? An even better question, why are you listening to what your religion tells you when they are speaking lies!?!?! What you need to do is RUN!!

    If you have anymore verses that “support” preexistence, I would love to hear them…

    #943510
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DesireTruth

    The Hebrew text says
    NOT SON OF THE GODS BUT SON OF GOD.

    I ASSUME THAT GOD HAS SENT HIS ANGEL TO SAVE DANIEL’S FRIENDS FROM THE FIRE FURNACE, BECAUSE THIS ANGEL MENTIONED BY NEBUCADNETSAR IS NOT MORE NOR LESS THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL HIMSELF  WHOSE SATAN WRONGLY DENIES THE DIVINITY.

    SO THE SON OF GOD IS THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL  ALSO CALLED THE ANGEL OF THE LORD IN MANY PASSAGES OF OT.

    SATAN WANTED TO DESTROY DANIEL’S FRIENDS, BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBEATABLE FAITH, GOD HONORED THEM BY SENDING HIS SON TO PROTECT THEM FROM THE FIRE FURNACE.

    Isa.43
    [1] But now thus knows the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
    [2] When you pass through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: 👉when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.👈

     

    THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR BETWEEN CHRIST AND SATAN
    OR MICHAEL AND THE GREAT DRAGON

    👇

    Rev. 12

    [7]And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    [10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    [11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

     

    🙏

     

     

    #943511
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You seriously need to run from your religion and search for real truth, your faith has been lying to you! The archangel Michael is NOT Jesus, this is a lie! You have yet to provide any real proof to this belief, you have provided zero scriptures that emphatically state this, all you have provided is your religious opinion.

    You site Isa 43 as proof to them being in the furnace and but has nothing to do with them being in the furnace, did you read Isa 42 or 44-53? No you haven’t, you are simply parroting what you religious leader told you was truth. You have yet to verify anything I have written, NOT ONE THING!!! Yet you will discredit what I have told you because your religion told you to! **Sidetrack, you want to know who the “suffering servant” is in Isa 53, start in 42 and tell me again who the “servant” is in 53!**

    You want your world flipped upside down, read I Corinthians 15:3,4. What I want to you do next is find me the scriptures that state the Messiah was to die for our sins AND that he was to be raised up on the third day!!!! “AS IT WAS WRITTEN” means it is written in the old testament. Maybe you can find them, I haven’t yet. I’m so tired!

    #943512
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and Co.

    You: NO, I do not believe that the Son of Man existed literally in the heavens and then came down to earth to be our savior.

    You can believe what you want, THAT’S YOUR PIGEON! 

    I have something for ALL OF YOU hereunder ENJOY:

     

    https://www.randomgroovybiblefacts.com/davids-son-is-his-lord.html

    by Jeremy Chance Springfield

    Days before Yeshua’s crucifixion, He taught His people and interacted with them in different settings and with different subjects. One particular discussion that He had with them stands out as significant, for He poses the same basic question at two different times, and the details reveal how masterful was His understanding of a situation and the perceptions of men.

     

    In Matthew 22:41-46, we read about this event: (KJV)

    While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].

     

    Again, in Mark 12:35-37, a similar event: (KJV)

    And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he [then] his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

     

    Finally, we read in Luke 20:41-44 the same: (KJV)

    And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David’s son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

    If you pay careful attention to the details in these three passages, you will notice that Mark and Luke are recording the same event, and that Matthew is actually a separate event from the other two.

     

    The passages from Mark and Luke are in the presence of scribes –those men who were responsible for copying the Law of the Holy One. These scribes were usually of a Levitical family, and thus, were normally of the sect of the Sadducees.

     

    The passage out of Matthew is directed exclusively to the Pharisees, who were a sect comprised of laymen, who had no ties to the Levitical families. These two sects were typically opposed in certain key doctrinal points.

    If you notice, however, the Messiah poses a question to both groups – the same basic question, referring to the same verse of Scripture out of the book of Psalms, chapter 110, verse 1, which reads:

    [A Psalm of David.] (KJV)

    The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    The passage Messiah quotes is done so in order to trip up the scribes and the Pharisees and their faulty perceptions of who the Messiah really was.  However, He uses this same passage in two different ways. Look first at the situation with the scribes. The scribes and those of Sadducean persuasion normally read Scripture and understood it in a very “shallow” level. They did not believe in the spirit world, that is, in angels, demons, or an afterlife of any degree. They believed in the Holy One alone as inhabiting the world beyond flesh.

    Therefore, Messiah’s question that He posed to them, after they refused to answer Him any further, backs them into a corner theologically from which they cannot get free. Not only has He shut them up already by previous words, He seals their doom in the eyes of anyone else listening by bringing up this verse and a question that He answers Himself, that is obvious to anyone who really thinks about it.

     

    How can the promised Messiah, for whom all Jewish people await, be called, “David’s son,” if David, in the verse from Psalms, instead calls him, “my Lord?” It is understood that a man’s son could never be his “lord” / “master.” That is not how the whole respect game goes.

    Biblical respect is paid to one’s progenitors, not the progenitor’s paying respect to the descendants. In Hebrew thought and culture, this is just not something that could be–especially to a scribe or Sadducee.

     

    So for David to call his descendant the Messiah, “my Lord” is a HUGE issue in a scribe’s thought.

    This entails that the Messiah must be something more than just a man. He has to have something that David did not, for David to pay such high respect to him. To even begin to consent to such an idea would have been heresy to a scribe or Sadducee.

    Thus, we see that the Messiah masterfully showed them that not only did He know exactly what He was talking about when they questioned Him, but that through His questioning of them, they had no idea what they were talking about when it came to the subject of the Messiah!  Their perceptions were far off the mark.

     

    That said, consider again finally the second instance of the posing of this same question to the Pharisees in the book of Matthew. In this situation, Yeshua does not ask and answer His own question, but asks it and allows them the opportunity to answer, and only then asks one more question that drops a similar theological bomb on their understanding.

     

    While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions]. (KJV)

     

     

    Some details need to be understood here to clarify why He interacts differently with the Pharisees than He did with the Sadducees. The Pharisees firmly believed in the spirit world, in the existence of the soul, of angels, demons, and an afterlife. They had no hang-ups with such ideas. The Pharisees believed that the Messiah would be the “Redeemer,” filled with the Spirit of the Holy One. It was not a heretical thought to them to think that the final king in David’s line would be paid greater respect if He was endowed with spiritual favour from on High. Therefore, with the posing of this same question, why would they not be able to answer Yeshua, and why would they not want to discuss anything else with Him? 

    What’s going on here?

     

    Honestly, there is no answer to this problem of the Pharisees being baffled when one is reading a translation from the Greek New Testament manuscripts. It cannot be answered from that side of things. However, if one turns to the ancient Aramaic New Testament called the Peshitta text, a surprising subtle difference is preserved in Messiah’s language at this passage alone that explains exactly why they could not answer Him and why they refused to discuss matters with Him anymore.

    Following is the passage from Matthew as translated from the Aramaic:

     

    Yet, while the Pharisees were gathered, Yeshua asked them, and said, “What do you say concerning the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” He said to them, “How does David, by the Spirit, call him ‘MarYa?’ for he said, ‘MarYa said to my Master, “Sit yourself at My right until your enemies I place under your feet.” ’ If, therefore, David called him ‘MarYa,’ how is he his son?”

     

    I must point out that the term “MarYa” is a compound Aramaic word literally meaning “Master Yah.” In the Aramaic translation of the ancient Hebrew Scriptures, it was used repeatedly to reference YHWH – the LORD in English translations.  The term is equal to the Biblical Hebrew of ADON YHWH, that is, “Master YHWH,” or what typical English versions translate somewhat erroneously as “the Lord GOD” – erroneously in that “God” / ELOHIM is not even present in the Hebrew being translated.  The Aramaic MARYA is therefore a phonetic form of Yah found only in Aramaic names containing the Divine Name YAH or YAHU as the suffix, such as EliYa for the prophet Elijah / EliYah.  In this case, it is added to MAR (Master / Lord)

    to show the supreme Deity of YHWH. 

    With that understanding from the Aramaic, do you see what Yeshua has done in this instance? He has asked the same question that He asked the scribes, but He then puts a different spin on it, by inferring that the “MarYa” spoken of in the verse is the “Son of David!”

     Essentially, He turns the entire presumption upside-down on the heads of the Pharisees, as they answered the question with absolutely no issue with anything He had said, but then with the second question, Messiah throws a massive curve-ball at them.  They weren’t expecting this novel way of interpreting Psalm 110.

     He makes the identity of YHWH being the “Son of David,” not “my Lord,” as He had allowed with the scribes.

    The reason He did this is that the Pharisees understood from various verses that the Messiah would have the same Name as the Holy One – YHWH.  The long-standing tradition of Messiah sharing the spiritual Name YHWH has been preserved in many ancient Jewish texts, although it is not something that is openly discussed in modern Judaism, due to how closely it aligns with mainstream Christian doctrines.  To give an example of the ancient Jewish view of this topic, some of the traditional sources are the following:

     

     

     

    Rab Huna counted amongst the seven names of Messiah also:

    YWHW Zidenko(THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS) Midrash Mishle 10:21

     

    What is the name of the Messiah? Rav Ava ben Kahnna said “

    YHWH IS HIS NAM” Midrash on lamentations 1:16

     

    In the futre, the Holy One, blessed be He, will seat Messiah in the supernal house of study, and they will call him

    “YHWH” JUST AS THEY CALL THE CREATOR.  Midrash Geulah

     

    God will call the king Messiah after His own name, for it is said the

    King Messiah “this is his name wherby he shall be called:

    YHWH our righteousness.”   Midrash Tehillim 21:12

     

    They understood that it was technically allowed, but they didn’t “get it.”

     They didn’t understand at all the unity of the Messiah and the Father.

    A man endowed with the Holy Spirit is one thing – that they could handle no problem.

    But they weren’t even considering the possibility of a truly UNIQUE MAN who possessed a special portion of the authority of the Father, to the point of being called

    ‘MarYa.’

    When they realized what He had done, they had no way to speak against Him. It was a radical interpretation that He had proposed, and yet one that they could not, under any manner, even begin to refute!

     

    The sheer brilliance of the Messiah’s execution of this situation cannot be underplayed: He dealt with both of the main opposing religious groups at two separate times, using the exact same verse, and blew their minds in two different ways, yet backed them into the same theological corner with the same conclusion:

     Messiah is FAR MORE than just a man or a rabbi of our religion –

    He is a man who carries the authority of the Holy One of Israel! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943523
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……..my “ROOT” is from the Balthrop family line, and I am the “OFFSPRING ” OF ANDREW .   THERE IS NO “MYSTERY” THERE.
    The only ones trying to make it all a mystery, 
    is you false teachers here.

    king David was from the “root” of Jesse,  so was Jesus, from that “root” of Jesse, but still the “OFFSPRING ” OF DAVID.  SIMPLE as that ,no need for a “mystery” religious spin you false teachers put on it, as you do so many other things.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel………..gene

     

    #943524
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……You believe Jesus is Michael the “ark Angel” right?.  Then he will not have part in the kingdom to come, why? , because scripture says so.

    Scripture says (not me). ,  …>“for unto the angels has he (God) not put in subjection the world to come, where of we speak”….Heb 2;5.

    Seems you need to start questioning some of your churches false teachings if you ask me.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #943526
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: Which KJ translation do you use – 1611, 1769, or newer?

    Me: You are misleading.
    There are six EDITIONS of the KJV, but it has
    never been revised.
    The difference between a revision and an edition…A
    revision is where you go into the TEXT and change the text.
    In an EDITION, you don’t change the text.
    There has NOT been a revision of the KJV since 1611!
    A revision is what you have in the RSV, NIV, ASV, where there are
    over 60,000 changes to the TEXT itself!

    #943527
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Danny,

    Honestly, don’t really care what bible anyone uses, there are issues in all of them; I access at least 60 different ones when I study, including the KJ.  That wasn’t the main point I was speaking on.

    The new testament is God’s “inspired Word”, so there should be ZERO confusion to what is written and should be easily understood by all. Yet, here we are going back and forth, debating whose religion has the correct understanding. Tell me why there is continual arguing over what is written within the pages of the new testament if it’s “inspired” by God?

    #943533
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……..my “ROOT” is from the Balthrop family line, and I am the “OFFSPRING ” OF ANDREW .  

    THERE IS NO “MYSTERY” THERE.

    Me: We are not discussing you and your family line!

     A MERE HUMAN!

    WE ARE DISCUSSING GOD’S MYSTERIES AND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS!

    You: The only ones trying to make it all a mystery, is you false teachers here.

    SCRIPTURE:

    I AM THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID!

    DID YOU GET IT? NO, YOU SIMPLY DON’T I’M AFRAID! I MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU!

    Me: Gene, BY READING THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE,

    IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT IT IS MORE THAN A MYSTERY TO YOU!

    (A) BALTHROP IS

    (B) THE ROOT OF YOUR FAMILY LINE!

    (C) YOU ARE 

    (D)THE OFFSPRING OF

    (E) ANDREW.

    OK Gene, 

    NOW JESUS IS BOTH

    THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING 

    YOU ARE NOT THE ROOT, BALTHROP IS!

    You: king David was from the “root” of Jesse,  

    so was Jesus, from that “root” of Jesse,

    but still the “OFFSPRING ” OF DAVID.  

    SIMPLE as that ,

    HA!, HA!, HA!

    NO Gene, FOR GOD’S SAKE, JESUS WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT OF JESSE!

    JESUS SAID:

    I AM THE ROOT!

    JESUS IS THE ROOT ITSELF!

    PREEXISTED, 

    BEFORE JESSE AND DAVID WERE IN EXISTENCE!

    THE BEGINNING, THE LIFE,  

    AS MUCH AS THE ROOT IS THE BEGINNING AND THE LIFE OF TREES AND HERBS AND COUNTLESS OFFSPRING OF THE GARDEN AND PLAIN

    You: no need for a “mystery”

    religious spin you false teachers put on it, as you do so many other things.

    YES, MORE THAN A MYSTERY!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943534
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……scripture says (not me). …….> ISA 11:10…..”they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters that cover the sea>verse11,   “And in that day there shall be a “ROOT OF JESSE,” which shall  stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

    The apostle Paul uses this same verses to show Jesus was the “ROOT OF JESSE”.            Rom 15:12.

    Carmel…..if you don’t understand that,  and that KING DAVID is also of the root of Jesse then you are ignorant of the truth shown in scriptures.  It is also plainly written that Jesus would come from the loins of king David too: need proof? Because I can give it to you anytime you want.

    Jesus is of the, “ROOT AND , A OFFSPRING” OF KING DAVID ,exactly as I have said, no mystery about it.   I can show from scriptures clearly that what Jesus said of himself is true,  I don’t need to use the word “mystery”, to hid my ignorance of what scriptures plainly show us>,  Only false teachers like you do that.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

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