John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,141 through 24,160 (of 26,007 total)
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  • #943466
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Do you even believe that Jesus is the Messiah?
    Because I noticed that you reject Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 53 as Messianic prophecies.
    Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 53 is clearly Messianic!
    Berean gave you good explanations.
    There are more. Just do a research 👉 Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus Christ!

    #943467
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Danny Dabbs

    Thank you DD for your participation and encouragement.

    God bless

    🙏

    #943468
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    God bless you, Berean.

    🙏

    #943469
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing.

    “Given from heaven” and given from God mean the same thing.

    Likewise, heavenly is the same thing as godly and “come from God” is the same thing as “came down from heaven”.

    John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

    30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

    33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Jesus is a teacher come from God where he performs miracles through the power of God that is with his word.

    Jesus is a teacher speaking heavenly things for he is the Son of Man who has came down from heaven.

    He whom God has sent speaketh heavenly things for God giveth the Spirit not by measure unto him.

    As the Son of Man is sent out into the world he increases as John, who had prepared his way before his coming, decreases. He is before John as he is the man of prophecy who would receive God’s Spirit and fulfill God’s covenant, a glory that God would give no other, making him above all where by such we know that God is true.

    The Son of Man having come from God to speak God’s word is the exact same thing as the Son of Man having come down from heaven to speak heavenly things.

    #943471
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Luke 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    Side note: The devil recognizes Jesus as God’s Son because of the powers of God’s Spirit that Jesus was begotten with at the river Jordan.

    When Jesus said, “that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God”, in such he was directly including himself, he is a man that must live by every word from God. 

    John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Once again, Jesus was directly including himself, he is a man that had to be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom, the kingdom God gives this son of David to rule over. 

    Jesus likewise says,

    Mark 10: 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

    We know from Paul that the cup that Jesus refers to is the cup of the One Spirit. 

    Jesus was the only mortal man to have been baptized to then receive the Spirit without measure for the purpose to be led by the Spirit in all his ways to fulfill all of God’s will. This Jesus died but was raised from the dead entering into God’s kingdom, even exalted to His right hand. This Jesus was raised having received the Spirit again according to a promise. We are told that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and that we are to bear the image of the Son so that he might be a firstborn of many. 

    1Chronicle 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Remember the words that Jesus, the son of David, had said concerning himself, a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. Therefore assuredly we know that God would be a Father unto a son of David THROUGH HIS SPIRIT and by that Spirit he would be settled into God’s kingdom for ever. 

    Even further, what happened when Jesus had the Spirit come to abode in him? God declared him at that moment to be His Son. John also bore record that he who he saw receive God’s Spirit was the Son of God. Back to the side note from the beginning, the devil recognized Jesus as God’s Son because of the powers of the Spirit that had come to abode in him.

    John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    Nathanael also sees Jesus as the Son of God according to God’s word spoken in 1 Chronicles 17, the promised man who would become God’s Son who God would give an eternal throne to.

     

     

    #943472
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    Another speech to try to cancel the fact that Jesus IN THE BEGINNING, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, WAS WITH GOD AND HE WAS GOD.

    ….
    AND THAT ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM…

    Jodi, do you believe there is a place where God and Christ and others dwell called HEAVEN?

    Our Father which
    art👉 in heaven, Hallowed be your name.

    Thy kingdom come. Thy will be

    done 👉  in earth, as

    it is 👉 in heaven.👈

    (Matthew 6:9,10)

    🙏

     

    #943473
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: why would it need to be even stated that he was in the form of God if he himself was God?

    Me: Jodi, YOU HAVE A SOUL, INVISIBLE!

    WHAT IS YOUR BODY?

    ISN’T YOUR BODY THE PHYSICAL FORM OF YOUR SOUL, SINCE YOUR SOUL IS INVISIBLE?

    AREN’T YOU ALSO YOUR SOUL!

    GOD ALSO IS INVISIBLE AND JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS,

    WAS PHYSICALLY  THE ONLY FORM/SHAPE OF GOD, 

    John5:37 And the Father himself who hath sent me, hath given testimony of me: neither have you heard his voice at any time,

    nor seen his shape.

    Jodi, Jesus made it well clear that HE KNOWS THE FATHER’S SHAPE!

    JESUS HIMSELF IS THE ONLY SHAPE OF GOD!

    You: Why would pre-existing God (the son) think that it would be to rob God to retain the equal of God when he himself is God? 

    THE ABOVE IS ONLY YOUR CORRUPTED MENTALITY!

    Read:

    Philippians2:5  For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6Who being in the form of God,

    THE FORM OF GOD IS A REFERENCE TO HIS PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT IN JESUS/GOD.

    thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD!

    HENCE  It means that Jesus did not think being equal with God was wrong!

    – meaning that Jesus considered himself that he was God. OBVIOUS:

    THE PHYSICAL FORM AND SHAPE OF GOD!

    7But emptied himself,

    JESUS, A SPIRIT PRE-EXISTED AS THE SON OF MAN, John3:13

    HE SIMPLY DISINTEGRATED INTO INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT SPECS  AND LEFT THE FATHER FOR THE SAKE OF

    GOD’S CREATION! ALL IN HIS SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, Colossians 1:15-20

    EVEN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD! Rev. 13:8 

    NOW READ PLEASE:

    24Wherefore a man shall leave FATHER and MOTHER, and shall cleave to his WIFE:

    and they shall be two in one flesh.

    THE ABOVE Jodi, is a reference to Jesus THE MAN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    JESUS LEFT THE FATHER FOR THE SAKE OF CREATION,

    John8:42 ….For from God I proceeded, and came;….

    THE PHYSICAL WORLD, LEFT THE MOTHER, CREATION.

    MOTHER EARTH, 

    Colossians 1:19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell;

    AND CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE!

    NOTICE HIS WIFE, PHYSICALLY, JESUS CREATED ALL BY/IN HIS SPIRIT!

    THE CREATION IS JESUS’ EMBODIMENT!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!

    JESUS’S SPIRIT IS OUR MOTHER IN THE NEW CREATION! Isaiah 66:7-13

    John3:29 He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom:….

    THE BRIDE, THE CHURCH!

    THE NEW JERUSALEM!

    THE NEW EMBODIMENT OF GOD ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD!

    AND THEY SHALL BE TWO IN ONE FLESH!

    JESUS CHRIST, 

    BOTH THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER IN

    THE HOLY GHOST,  THE SON OF GOD, AND

    THE PHYSICAL OF THE SON, IN

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN

    AS HE PRE-EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    John10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE!

    GOD, MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #943476
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus was born the savior, king, lord, and messiah

    Yes, Jesus was a man. He came in the flesh. He existed in the form of God and emptied himself and was born in Bethlehem.

    After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

    When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born

    Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Whatever we do with the truth about Jesus is up to each one of us.

    #943477
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Danny,

    Because I reject Isa 9:6 and Isa 53 as referring to Jesus you make the jump that I don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah?!?!

    Since I can’t get Berean to answer my question of what the verses before and after are talking about in Isa 9:6-7, can you tell me without looking them up? My guess is no; but I bet you can recite those two verses in your sleep and parrot them at any time…I could! Now when I read them or anything, I read the surrounding verses and put the passages into the context they are written in, I am not picking out verses that sound like they could be a reference to Jesus and saying they are.

    Can you explain why there is so much arguing and bickering over what verses are saying in the new testament if the new testament is God breathed? Why this “debate” over John 1:1 has been going on for over 20 years and there is still no agreement concerning who the “word” is? Why are there over 100 different translations of scripture (which one is the best)? If the new testament is truly part of God’s incorruptible word, then there should be ZERO confusion of what has been written. Or has man corrupted it over the last 1700 years?

    #943479
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DesireTruth…….They have “TOTALLY” corrupted,  the word of GOD, far worse now than at the beginning.  When Paul prophesied about the “apostate churches” in 2ths2 , what they would do and have done. Turning THE  “IMAGE” OF THE MAN JESUS INTO A GOD AND WORSHIPING HIM AS SUCH. Thanks be to GOD FOR SPARING A FEW, like You and Jodi.
    Satan and his ministers have have flooded modern day Christianity with their lies, and that proof is obviously clear,  here and nearly all modern Christian Churches.

    Peace and love to you and yours DesireTruth………..gene

    #943480
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    I’m still waiting for your response.
    I ALSO ASKED JODI.

    WHAT IS THE HEAVEN FOR YOU AND ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.
    FOR JESUS HAS COME DOWN FROM THE HEAVEN TO DO NOT HIS OWN WILL BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT HIM. (John 6:38)

    OUR FATHER

    After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father👉 which art in heaven👈, Hallowed be thy name.
    [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done 👉in earth, 👉as it is in heaven.👈
    [

    According to these texts, and there are many others, IS THE HEAVEN A REAL PLACE?

    YES OR NO

    THANK YOU

    #943481
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Gene,

    What I have realized when speaking out about the deceptive doctrines of the church, I am (we are) “fighting” over 1700 years of indoctrination. When a lie is told long enough, it becomes truth and is almost impossible to change the longer the lie is allowed. So the change must happen at the individual level. Unfortunately, once you see the deception and speak out, it becomes a lonely place as those you thought where “christian” friends start treating you like the plague. All because you start questioning doctrine.

    The master of lies has convinced the world Jesus is God and in doing so created an idol of Jesus, thus breaking the first Command God gave to Israel.

    Keep up the fight, keep running the race; God will reveal HIS truths to those who seek it.

    #943482
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Still waiting for what it means to come “down from heaven”; not looking for pointy fingers and more verses. Explain it and make sure you are explaining it from a Hebraic perspective.

    #943483
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

     

    Still waiting for what it means to come “down from heaven”; not looking for pointy fingers and more verses. Explain it and make sure you are explaining it from a Hebraic perspective.

    Me

    You know what I think about this. And You, what do you believe about this? (John 6:38)

    🙏

     

    #943485
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: I have no speech other than WHAT IS WRITTEN.

    ME: This is a complete delusional statement by you Berean.

    WHAT IS WRITTEN Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    YOU, 2:5 let this mind be in you, which was also in God the Son: Who, being in the form of God, considered that it would be to rob God to be the equal of God.

    WHAT IS WRITTEN Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    YOU, 5:2 …who existed as God the Son from everlasting.

    Fact, your speech of Phil 2 and Micah 5 is your own interpretation where you even change given text.

    WHAT IS WRITTEN Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    ME, 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

    Berean, you say the mind of God the Son, I say the mind of the anointed Jesus. I say the anointed Jesus thought it not robbery and you say God the Son thought it to be robbery. So who is following “WHAT IS WRITTEN”?

    WHAT IS WRITTEN Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    ME, 5:2 whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (owlam, long duration, antiquity).

    I apply this to,

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel…30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many  days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    “whose goings forth” is a prophecy that Micah had just declared, “of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler “and then he tells us that prophecy, of one from the tribe of Judah going forth unto God to be a ruler, is from of old, it was declared from antiquity. 

    Can we confirm this truth from other clear passages? YES.

    You Berean  pretend thatgoings forthdoes not relate at all toshall he come forth unto me“.  You cannot even apply two things together that is being spoken of in the same verse! You completely disconnect the text and say “goings forth” has nothing to do with what was just said, Micah all the sudden in the same verse is speaking of something entirely different, that “goings forth” means existing. 

    Fact, your speech of Phil 2 and Micah 5 is your own interpretation where you even change given text and you don’t even apply text within the same passage.

    #943486
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    JODI.

    WHAT IS THE HEAVEN FOR YOU AND ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.
    FOR JESUS HAS COME DOWN FROM THE HEAVEN TO DO NOT HIS OWN WILL BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT HIM. (John 6:38)

    OUR FATHER

    After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father👉 which art in heaven👈, Hallowed be thy name.
    [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done 👉in earth, 👉as it is in heaven.👈
    [

    According to these texts, and there are many others, IS THE HEAVEN A REAL PLACE?

    YES OR NO

    THANK YOU

    #943489
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You said:

    If the new testament is truly part of God’s incorruptible word, then there should be ZERO confusion of what has been written. Or has man corrupted it over the last 1700 years?

    Me:

    Are you telling me that Almighty God was not able to protect His word???
    I believe the old King James Bible is the word of God.

    #943491
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: WHAT IS THE HEAVEN FOR YOU AND ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.

    ME: Heaven, heavens and heavenly we see in scripture hold different representations.

    The sky above where birds fly (yes I believe this is a real place), further up where the stars are (yes I believe this is a real place) and even further we have God’s abode (yes I believe this is a real place). Additionally, it also holds the meaning of having come from God or that which is of God. 

    Examples of the later,

    Matt 3: 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mark 1:15 And saying,The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Heaven represents OF GOD.

    Luke 12: 30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

    Matt 8: 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham…20 By faith Isaac…21 By faith Jacob..39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    1 Thes 4:14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not come before them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    The kingdom of heaven represents God’s future kingdom on earth where it is now a treasure in heaven waiting for us, meaning that it is a promise that is of God to be fulfilled. This promise has been with God since before time on earth began. 

    2 Tim 4: I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    ALSO, that which was with God before time on earth began was that of one man who would bring forth and rule over God’s kingdom sitting on his father David’s throne and granting people the crown of righteousness, giving people the cup of the one Spirit where man is made perfect walking in all of God’s ways.

    John 3: 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Berean this is a biblical fact,

    The promised Son of Man spoken by the prophets, a man who would be given God’s Spirit, called to righteousness for to be a light, given glory that was for no other, had been with God before time on earth began, where since then until his coming, where John had preached before his coming to prepare the way, he had been a treasure in heaven waiting for us, he had been of God in God’s word from the beginning, the Word of God that would be made true in the flesh and people would behold his glory. 

    I want to emphasize this verse again,

    John 3: 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    When Jesus spoke these words it was of God that the Son of Man would be crucified, we read in Acts that this was foreordained by God. All that would be fulfilled in the Son of Man existed in heaven. The Son of Man being in heaven relates directly to what Jesus then spoke, because that which he spoke was in God to be fulfilled in him.

    Likewise, what Jesus spoke of in verse 5, which speaks of his anointing at the river Jordan, directly relates to what Jesus says in verse 13, the Son of Man “came down from heaven”. All that would be fulfilled in the Son of Man existed in heaven as it was of God coming directly from Him. As Jesus’s anointing had occurred he thus was the Son of Man that had come down from heaven, he had come from God.

    Nicodemus himself saw the Son of Man having come from God which means the exact same thing as having came down from heaven. 

     

    #943492
    Berean
    Participant

     

    @ Jodi

    You

    The sky above where birds fly (yes I believe this is a real place), further up where the stars are (yes I believe this is a real place) and even further we have God’s abode (yes I believe this is a real place). Additionally, it also holds the meaning of having come from God or that which is of God. 

     

    Me

    Thanks for Your ANSWER.

    You Say “Additionally, it also holds the meaning of having come from God or that which is of God. ”

    Do you believe that Jesus comes from the place called HEAVEN WHERE IS GOD THE FATHER?
    DO YOU BELIEVE HE LITERALLY DESCENDED FROM THIS SPECIAL “PLACE” TO COME TO THIS EARTH TO LIVE AND DIE FOR US AND BE OUR SAVIOR.?

    🙏

     

     

    #943495
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus said …….“I am, the root and “OFFSPRING” OF DAVID?   please explain how Jesus could be the “offspring” of David, and still preexist his birth on the earth.  Show proof, not  your “MORPHED “. mystery religion BS.

    There is only one answer to the above question,  Jesus was “IN”,  the plan and Will of God before he ever existed, as an actual being,  the same way King Cyrus was,  they both were mentioned in prophecy, until they actually came into their only “TRUE” existence.   Simple as that , for those who believe Jesus,  and “ARE GUIDED BY THE SPIRT OF TRUTH” .

    peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene

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