John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,181 through 24,200 (of 26,007 total)
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  • #943535
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Do you reject the Bible as the inspired word of God?
    If that’s the case, then don’t write to me anymore, Deceiver.

    #943536
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Danny,

    Apparently you cannot answer the question and sounds like you are running away. The question is extremely important; if the source is from God, there can be zero debate over what is being said. Yet, what has been going on for the last 1700 years; arguing over what the “new testament” says, this doesn’t raise any alarms for you? Why does this simple question offend so much; is it because the truth within the question forces one to address the doctrine they hold tight to.

    Then resort to name calling – shame on you; it is a fine example of the church today. If you don’t agree with the churches beliefs, you are of Satan and they WILL tell you that. What people need to do is start looking into what is peddled as truth, start questioning the truth of their religion, and verifying what they are told; instead of being good little sheep obeying every command of the “pastor.” Don’t believe me, next time in “church” see what happens when he says “everyone stand”, “everyone sit”, “let’s bow our heads…”, “greet your neighbor”, “turn to the person next to you”; like lemmings, every command he speaks, people do.

    The “church” needs to wake up to the deceit within its ranks instead of punching the “I believe” button and hanging on every word coming the mouth of the religious leader who’s peddling a doctrine they were taught in the world of academia when they where in their impressionable years of 18-22, who’s main goal was to pass a class with a good grade, a grade that was based on how well they answered questions on a test, questions formulated by the one teaching what the student was to “learn”, and any response that didn’t align with the answer the instructor claim was correct, was wrong. This isn’t learning, this is indoctrination. With this kind of learning structure, there is no motivation to learn or question what is being taught, especially when the “grade” will determine whether one will pass or fail.

    #943537
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    K J B John 6:40
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

    Do you believe that…
    If not, what do you believe?

    🙏

    #943545
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Have you found where it states in the old testament the Messiah was to die for our sins? As Paul states this is “according to scripture.” Still haven’t found it…

    Which brings me to another question, when did God ever require a human sacrifice? The pagans did this…oh wait Jesus did this of his own accord, but it’s still a human sacrifice no matter how you look at it. Is there anything written in scripture that states the innocent can/will take on the guilt of another? What is written is the guilty are responsible for their guilt.

    With everyone saying the new testament is the “inspired word of God” and arguing over every point it makes, have to wonder if that statement is true. All this arguing means God created confusion. When old testament scripture is taken out of context to prove one’s beliefs, this is called a lie. When tenses are intentionally changed, it changes the context of what was written and is a lie. The church will push doctrine over scripture or twist scripture to prove their doctrine. Lies are just as prevalent inside the “church” as they are outside.We complain about how the world is “indoctrinating” our children, how is the “church” any different when it “indoctrinates” the people into its religious beliefs?

    You ask a very important question when you ask what I believe. Do I believe what man teaches or what God told us. Do I blindly accept man’s doctrines or what God said. Until those three questions in the first two paragraph are answered, what is anyone suppose to believe? Why my user name? I am tired of the lies and I “desire the TRUTH”!

    Are you digging and growing or being spoon feed and dying?

    #943546
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……scripture says (not me). …….> ISA 11:10…..”they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters that cover the sea>verse11,   “And in that day there shall be a “ROOT OF JESSE,” which shall  stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

    The apostle Paul uses this same verses to show Jesus was the “ROOT OF JESSE”.            Rom 15:12.

    Me: Gene,

    YOU NEVER PRODUCED THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE AT ALL TO BEREAN! 

    Just read again your own words:

    You: Berean……DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus said …….

    “I am, the root and “OFFSPRING” OF DAVID?  

    Now the above is  ALSO SCRIPTURE, and it is also

    WHAT JESUS SAID! Read:

    Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

    I am the root and the offspring of David,…

    WHY DIDN’T YOU PRODUCE ALL THAT YOU PRODUCED NOW  TO BEREAN

    IN THE FIRST PLACE? 

    MY ANSWER IS ALWAYS RELATED AND WITH RESPECT TO YOUR QUESTION! NO?

    NOW CARRY ON READING YOUR OWN WORDS TO BEREAN PLEASE!

    You: please explain how Jesus could be the

    “offspring” of David,

    and still preexist his birth on the earth.  Show proof, not your

    “MORPHED “. mystery religion BS.

    Me: AS YOU CAN WELL READ, YOU YOURSELF WAS NOT CONSISTENT IN YOUR QUESTION FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT FOR A REASON ONLY YOU KNOW, YOU LEFT OUT THE WORD:

    ROOT! 

    FROM THE SCRIPTURE  YOU YOURSELF MENTIONED TO BEREAN, AND ONLY MENTIONED THE WORD “OFFSPRING”

     

    NOW READ AGAIN WHAT I ASKED YOU, 

     

    Me: Presumably Gene, you believe that Jesus is

    BOTH THE ROOT and THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID! No?

    NOW Gene,

    THIS TIME I AM GOING TO ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION REGARDING

    A PURE SCRIPTURE AND ALSO

    THE GENUINE WORDS OF JESUS IN REVELATION 22:16 ABOVE!

     

    Do you believe Gene, that Jesus is

    BOTH THE ROOT and THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID?

    yes or no, please!

    ANSWER Gene so we can get on to the rest of the truth!

    IF YOU DON’T ANSWER Gene,

    IT WOULD BE ANOTHER CONFIRMATION THAT 

    YOU ARE NOT AN HONEST PERSON AT ALL, AND 

    AFTER ALL,  IT IS ALSO

    NOT AS YOU SAID, I MEAN TO BEREAN HEREUNDER:

    You: Show proof, not your

    “MORPHED “. mystery religion BS.

     

    BUT AS I SAID!  I MEAN THAT

    IT IS MORE THAN A MYSTERY TO YOU,

    OTHERWISE, YOU WOULDN’T HAVE LEFT OUT THE WORD “ROOT” IN THE FIRST PLACE!

    I am waiting!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #943547
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    If I understood correctly, you do not believe that Jesus is the MESSIAH..

    you had a one
    certain knowledge that needed to be purified and strengthened, but now you doubt the ONE WHO WAS MADE SIN FOR YOU SO THAT YOU WILL BECOME GOD’S RIGHTEOUSNESS IN JESUS CHRIST.

    BUT YOU DESIRE THE TRUTH AND ME IN BEREAN, I SEARCH, I LISTEN AND I TRY TO VERIFY IF WHAT I’M TOLD IS TRUE.

     

    Now you raise a 👉capital point 👈
    HOW the innocent can/will take on the guilt of another?
    THAT’S A VERY GOOD QUESTION .
    Now let me ask you another QUESTION….

    WHY ALL THESE “INNOCENT” ANIMALS SLAUGHTERED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?

    WHAT GOD INTENDED TO TEACH ISRAEL AND THE WORLD ULTIMATELY WITH THIS REQUEST TO PERFORM SACRIFICES OF INNOCENT ANIMALS???????

    BUT WORSE, GOD ASKED ABRAHAM TO OFFER HIM SON IN HOLOCAUST!?

    To my knowledge, this is A UNIQUE CASE IN THE BIBLE.

    IS THERE NOT A RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST?

    ISAAC COULDN’T BE IMMOLATED, HIS SpillED BLOOD WOULD HAVE BEEN USED FOR NOTHING.

    A RAM HAS BEEN “PROVIDED” INSTEAD OF MAN 👉 ISAAC

    SUGGESTION

    TRY TO PUT YOUR NAME IN THE PLACE OF ISAAC’S, (imagine that Abraham is your father) AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITHIN YOU….

    GENESIS 22
    And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
    [2] And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
    [3] And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
    [4] Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
    [5] And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you,
    [6] And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
    [7] And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
    [8] And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
    [9] And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
    [10] And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
    [11] And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
    [12] And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing👉 thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.👈

    👇

    [13] And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering 👉in the stead of his son . 👈

    WHAT DOES RAM “caught in a thicket” REPRESENT TO YOU?

    WHO WILL BE “IMMOLATED

    IN PLACE OF ISAAC….???

    🙏

    #943548
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You’re avoiding the questions by deflecting to Abraham, using his scenario, and relating it to Jesus. This is what the church has been telling people as long as I can remember. The only place this is referenced in the new testament is in Hebrews – a book whose author is unknown, reads similar to a homily, and is highly contentious among older scholars whether it should be in the new testament or not – and it states it was a test of obedience. But with the wording at the end of the verse “his one and only son” and boom we have the correlation between Abraham sacrificing Isaac and God sacrificing Jesus. The issue with this is Isaac wasn’t “willingly giving himself up”, so the two don’t align.

    Abraham’s situation is vastly different, human sacrifice was common in his day and was detestable to God because it was murder. God tested Abraham to see if he would be obedient, that was it. You bring up “innocents” of animals being used for sacrifices (are you PETA), but we can go back to the beginnings of Genesis to Cain and Able to see which sacrifice was acceptable to God. The practice of animal sacrifice was normal from creation. You will have to ask God why he chose animals to be sacrifices, scripture never explains the why. We do know with the destruction of the second temple sacrifices was to stop and was foretold by Daniel.

    Now we must focus like a laser beam on the primary question asked:

    Where in the old testament does it state the Messiah was to die for man’s sins?

    #943549
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….Scripture shows clearly , as I have posted, that Jesus is of the “ROOT’  ( of Jesse the same as David),  AND IS A “OFFSPRING” of  DAVID.   When Jesus said, “I am the root and the offspring of DAVID”,  he was telling the truth.

    Carmel you can try to twist and turn the scriptures you want in your “mystery” form of religion you practice,  but scripture shows clearly what I have written is true. 

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #943550
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….Do you actually believe that Jesus’ dying on the tree, i. e. Cross,  actually forgives everyone of their sins?  No you must “repent” first , then be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and then you will receive the gift of the “Holy Spirit” ,  that begins a work of salvation “IN” you. You are saved by “grace” and that not of ourselves it is a “Gift” from GOD.  

    WE MUST “EAT” THE FLESH,  AND “DRINK” THE BLOOD OF JESUS.  That means we must take to ourselves the way Jesus lived  and become exactly the same as Jesus is in our relation with God the Father. Jesus demonstrated to us what is required to have a right relationship with God the Father.  That is a relationship of faith even to the point of death,  exactly like Jesus had, we need to also have.
    Jesus’, death was to demonstrate what is required to have a right relationship with God the Father,  it is in that “SENSE”, Jesus died for the sins of the world,  he showed us all “the Way”, to have a right relationship with God the Father.

    The idea that Jesus’ death pays for everyone sins is a false teaching,  IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean………..gene

    #943551
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    You seem to completely trivialize the subject of sacrifices, holocaust in the Old Testament, which God had instituted for a very specific reason, it’s quite incredible….You’re pulling the rug out from under your feet, because it is precisely with this that we can make the link with Christ WHO IS THE TRUE LAMB OF GOD ANNOUNCED BY BIBLICAL PROPHECY.
    JOHN LE BAPTISTE IS QUITE ELOQUANT ON THIS.
    OF COURSE ISAIAH BEFORE HIM.

    Isaiah 53
    [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid 👉on him the iniquity of us all.👈
    [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought👉 as a lamb👈 to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.   

    ….

    [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:

    👉when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,👈

    he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant👉 justify many; 

    for 👉he shall bear their iniquities. 

     

    Sée Peter👇

    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,

    that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:

    by whose stripes ye were healed.( 1 Peter 2:24)

    Is.53:5

    But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him;

    👉and with his stripes we are healed.👈

     

     

    Daniel 9

    24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,👉 to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, 👈 and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,👈 and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    [25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem 👉unto the Messiah the Prince 👈shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    [26] 👉And after threescore and two weeks 👉shall Messiah be cut off, 👈

    👉but not for himself: 👈

    and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    [27] And 👉he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:👈 and 👉in the midst of the week he(Message) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,👈 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    👉in the midst of the week he(Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,👈 (year 31 AD)👈

    🙏

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #943552
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Shame on YOU for rejecting Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy.

    #943553
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Gene

    The idea that Jesus’ death pays for everyone sins is a false teaching,

    Me

    WRONG

     

    👉But he was wounded for our transgressions,👈

    he was bruised for our iniquities:

    👉the chastisement of our peace was upon him;👈

    and with his stripes we are healed.( Isaiah 53:5)

     

    #943554
    Berean
    Participant

    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,
    that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:

    by whose stripes ye were healed.( 1 Peter 2:24)

     

    #943555
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….Do you actually believe that Jesus’ dying on the tree, i. e. Cross,  actually forgives everyone of their sins?  No you must “repent” first , then be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and then you will receive the gift of the “Holy Spirit” ,  that begins a work of salvation “IN” you. You are saved by “grace” and that not of ourselves it is a “Gift” from GOD.  

    WE MUST “EAT” THE FLESH,  AND “DRINK” THE BLOOD OF JESUS.  That means we must take to ourselves the way Jesus lived  and become exactly the same as Jesus is in our relation with God the Father. Jesus demonstrated to us what is required to have a right relationship with God the Father.  That is a relationship of faith even to the point of death,  exactly like Jesus had, we need to also have.
    Jesus’, death was to demonstrate what is required to have a right relationship with God the Father,  it is in that “SENSE”, Jesus died for the sins of the world,  he showed us all “the Way”, to have a right relationship with God the Father.

    The idea that Jesus’ death pays for everyone sins is a false teaching,  IMO.

    Jesus bore the sins of the world, must be understood in this “SENSE”,   Jesus was unjustly punished for things he never committed, by the world powers that then existed.  So it is in “THAT SENSE” he bore (or endured), the sins of the world,  not because he died for “your” OR MY sins.  ” Every man shall give an account for his ” OWN” SINS, that he has committed in the flesh, and if he doesn’t repent of them he will die > the death.
    Jesus showed us how to escape death, by doing “EXACTLY” what he did, by keeping all f God the Fathers “commandments”,  through the “spirit of God that abided in him and in us , it’s exactly the same way Jesus did it, through the Spirit of the LIVING God dwelling in him. The exact same thing applies to us, we must “REPENT” AND RECEIVE THE “SPIRIT” OF God,  which is the “SEED” OF THE FATHER, IT MUST BE ABIDING “IN” US, then we are the begotten  Sons of the Living God.  Once we are “BORN” OF IT, AT OUR RESURRECTION, WE AS JESUS, can “SAY’,  I was dead and am ALIVE FOR EVER.  WE MUST DO EXACTLY AS JESUS DID, TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE.  JESUS SHOWS US THE “WAY” TO HAVE A RIGHT “RELATIONSHIP” WITH THE FATHER , and it is “EXACTLY’ the same as his is>

    This whole idea that Jesus paid for all our sins is just  another false teaching, brought on by Satan and his ministers in the “APOSTATE” CHURCHES.

    peace and love to you and yours ……….gene

      

    #943556
    Berean
    Participant

    Jesus bore the sins of the world, must be understood in this “SENSE”,   Jesus was unjustly punished for things he never committed, by the world powers that then existed.  So it is in “THAT SENSE” he bore (or endured), the sins of the world,  not because he died for “your” OR MY sins.  ”

    Me

    No, no AND no

    You are wrong.

    The bible Say in 1Cor.15:
    [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that

    👉Christ died for our sins👈 according to the scriptures;

    #943557
    Berean
    Participant

    IT IS BECAUSE Christ died for our sins👉and the Spirit working our hearts,and convicts us of sin,👉 THAT WE CAN REPENT,👈 RECEIVE FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS, AND RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    IT IS GOD FIRST WHO TAKEN THE INITIATIVE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST TO BRING US BACK TO HIM, AND IT IS THIS LOVE THAT MUST TOUCH OUR AND PUSH US TO REPENTANCE.

    PAUL SAYS THAT

    Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that 👉the goodness of God leads thee to repentance?👈 

    🙏

    #943558
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel When Jesus said,

    “I am the root and the offspring of DAVID”,

     he was telling the truth.

    Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

    I am the root and the offspring of David,…

    Gene, If you pretend that you are an honest person: Answer:

    Do you believe that Jesus is

    BOTH THE ROOT and THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID?
    yes or no, please!

    ANSWER Gene so we can get on to the rest of the truth

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943559
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Berean…….Do you actually believe that Jesus’ dying on the tree, i. e. Cross,  actually forgives everyone of their sins?

     No you must “repent” first , then be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins,

    and then you will receive the gift of the “Holy Spirit” ,

     that begins a work of salvation “IN” you. You are saved by “grace” and that not of ourselves it is a “Gift” from GOD.  

    Me: Gene,  FROM THE ABOVE IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT YOU

    CANOT DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN

    REDEMPTION AND SALVATION!

    Answer Gene,

    WHAT IS REDEMPTION FOR?

     WHAT IS SALVATION REFERRING TO?

    JUST TO HELP YOU OUT AS A CHRISTIAN IN

    CHRIST!

    AND FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH IN

    JESUS!

    WHICH DEFINITELY IS NOT IN YOU IN FULL!

    READ NOW WHAT YOU YOURSELF ABOVE DECLARED!

     You: No you must “repent” first , then be

    baptized for the forgiveness of your sins,

    and then you will receive the gift of the

    “Holy Spirit”

    SCRIPTURE:

    Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear;

    he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire

    Acts 2:37 Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? 38But Peter said to them:

    Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in

    the name of Jesus Christ,

    for the remission of your sins:

    and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

     

    Acts 10:43 To him all the prophets give testimony,

    that by his name all receive REMISSIONS OF SINS,

    who believe in him.

     

    44 While Peter was yet speaking these words,

    the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word.

    Gene, EXPLAIN, HOW IN THE ABOVE  THE HOLY GHOST  FELL ON CORNELIUS BEFORE HE WAS BAPTIZED!

     45 And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter,

    were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.

     46For they heard them speaking with tongues, and magnifying God. 

    47Then Peter answered:

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,

    who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? 

    48And he commanded them to be baptized in

    the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Then they desired him to tarry with them some days.

     

    NOW READ YOUR OWN WORDS:

    No you must “repent” first ,

    then be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins,

    and then you will receive the gift of the “Holy Spirit” ,

    NOW ANSWER PLEASE:

    WHY THEN PETER STILL HAD TO BAPTIZE THEM IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST? 

    THEY HAD ALREADY RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST.

    More scripture:

    Acts 19:4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance, saying: That they should believe in him who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus.

    5Having heard these things,

    they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    6And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

     

    1John 4:10 In this is charity: not as though we had loved God,

    but because he hath first loved us,

    and sent his Son to be a propitiation for our sins.

    Romans 5:6 For why did Christ, when as yet we were weak, according to the time,

    die for the ungodly?

    7For scarce for a just man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man some one would dare to die.

    8But God commendeth his charity towards us; because when as yet we were sinners, according to the time,

    9Christ died for us;

    much more therefore, being now justified by his blood,

    shall we be SAVED from wrath through HIM.

    10For if, when we were enemies,

    we were reconciled to God by the death OF HIS SON;

    much more, being reconciled,

    shall we be saved by his life.

    11And not only so; but also we glory in God, through

    our Lord Jesus Christ,

    by whom we have now received reconciliation.

    NO JESUS NO GOD NO GOD NO JESUS!

    Ephesians 2:1 And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins, 2Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief: 3In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts,

    and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

    4But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,

    5 Even when we were dead in sins,

    hath quickened us together in Christ,

    (by whose grace you are saved,)

    Gene I HOPE YOU RESPECT YOUR OWN WORDS AND

    PUT TOGETHER 

    SCRIPTURES!

    Just to keep you in mind:

    AS AN HONEST MAN, YOU STILL HAVE TO ANSWER, HEREUNDER

    Do you believe that Jesus is

    BOTH THE ROOT and THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID?

    yes or no, please!

    ANSWER Gene so we can get on to the rest of the truth

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943560
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Danny,

    You: Shame on YOU for rejecting Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy.

    Me: You’re kidding right!??!? I just about spit my drink all over my screen laughing! I will point you to Page 1207 Post #943444 and read the brief explanation of why I can’t accept Isa 53 as speaking of Jesus. Then I would challenge you to verify it for yourself. Don’t just look at chapter 53, start in Isa 41 where it begins talking about the “servant” and tell me who this “servant” is in Isa 53. Don’t use you beloved KJ, go to Chabad.org and read the Hebrew translated into English.

    #943561
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Why do you keep avoiding the question?!? You keep repeating Jesus had to died for our sins and Paul states “according to scripture” (written in the old testament); yet I haven’t found the verse that states the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind. This creates a HUGE problem for “christianity” if the verse doesn’t exist, this is what “christianity” is about!

    We have been over Isa 53 and you definitely DON’T want to get into Daniel – once again not applying your quoted verses in the context they are written. I will say this about Daniel, you have to know Jewish history to understand what’s going on, especially for chapter 9. In verse 2 we are given a hint to what is happening.

    Be your name or change it!

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