John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,901 through 23,920 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #943043
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….I BELIEVE God opened your eyes to the truth by giving you the “spirit of truth”.   I can tell by your words you use explaining what you now believe .

    That happens to them God is calling. But that is rare, most hold  to there false understandings taught them by all these corrupt churches they belong to.

    peace and love to you and yours DESIRE TRUTH…………gene

     

     

    #943044
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    As the saying goes, tell a lie long enough and it will become truth.

    I agree.
    The lying freemasons are even in our christian circles.
    What are they doing?
    Well, 1 John 2:23 explains it very well:
    Whoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father.
    Of course, this works both ways:
    Whoever denies the Father, the same has not the Son.
    That’s what it’s all about.

    God bless

    #943045
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    ME: When Jesus was baptized he then was born of God’s Spirit where he was called to righteousness and could not sin. He died but then was raised having received God’s Spirit.

    YOU: I’m sorry, no scripture AFFIRM this.

    ME:

    AFFIRMATION is right here in the below passages. 

    1. Jesus was baptized/Matthew 3 and 20, Mark 1 and 10.
    2. Jesus was born of God’s Spirit/Isaiah 11, 42, 61, Luke 3 and 4, Matt 3, John 1 and 3, Mark 1 and 10, 1 John 3, Ephes 5:9, Cor 12, Roman 8
    3. Jesus was called to righteousness and could not sin/ Isaiah 42, Matt 3, 1 John 3, Romans 5.
    4. Jesus was raised from the dead and received God’s Spirit/Acts 2, Isaiah 11.

    I am hoping that you can, as I asked before, speak directly to the below passages,

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    Ephesians 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sinfor his seed remaineth in himand he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

     

    #943047
    Berean
    Participant

    @Jodi

    You

    AFFIRMATION is right here in the below passages.

    Jesus was baptized/Matthew 3 and 20, Mark 1 and 10.
    Jesus was born of God’s Spirit/Isaiah 11, 42, 61, Luke 3 and 4, Matt 3, John 1 and 3, Mark 1 and 10, 1 John 3, Ephes 5:9, Cor 12, Roman 8

    Me

    And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; (Es.11:2)

    There is a difference between being born of the Spirit and “the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him”

    And so Isaiah is not talking about being born of the Spirit in the case of Jesus because the Spirit never left Christ and that is what allowed him to live without sin in his childhood.

    🙏

     

    #943050
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: There is a difference between being born of the Spirit and “the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him”

    ME: Please further explain your position with scripture. 

    Being born of God IS to have God’s Spirit coming to rest upon you, abode in you.

    Matthew 3:16 and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Ephesians 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    1 John 3: 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased…4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    Isaiah 11 is not yet fulfilled and who fulfills it, the Son of Man coming in the clouds in the glory of our Father, a man who has God’s Spirit aboding in him where he does not judge by his own eyes and ears, but through the Spirit of God, that is all goodness righteousness and truth.

    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit;

    Heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ is God’s promise of the fulfillment of Ezekiel 36, having God’s Spirit dwelling in us to the cause of being able to walk in all of God’s ways, thus righteousness. Those that are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God as you have been born of God not able to sin, born of the Spirit that causes righteousness.

    We are called by God into faith through His Spirit of faith dwelling in us, by our faith we are counted as worthy to receive the promise of the fullness of God’s Spirit that causes righteousness.

    1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Berean, what all do you not comprehend?

    A son of David was promised to be made into God’s firstborn

    God being in you is God’s Spirit dwelling in you.

    Being born of God and being born of God’s Spirit is the same thing.

    If you are born of God’s Spirit then His Spirit is dwelling in you.

    Being an heir of God and a joint heir with Christ means you inherit God’s Spirit where the Spirit dwelling in you bears witness to your spirit that you are a child of God.

    To enter God’s kingdom you must first have faith which comes through the Spirit of God working in you, with that faith you then are able to receive the promise, God will be all in you, He will beget you with His Spirit and it remains in you to the cause of righteousness and eternal life.

    Paul gives you directly the image of the Son that we are to be made into so that he would be a firstborn of many brethren, one who is LED by the Spirit of God in all His ways is an eternal Son of God. We are LED by the Spirit through that Spirit resting in us, such is exactly what being born of the Spirit means and thus being born of God and thus why we would be called Sons of God.

    In 1 John 3 the Son of God and the Children of God are all made Children of God in the SAME WAY, through being born of God where one cannot sin. If you cannot comprehend that being born of God is to be born of God’s Spirit where it’s fruit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth, you are living in a dark hole. If you cannot comprehend that being born of God’s Spirit is to have God’s Spirit aboding in you, you are living in a dark hole.

    Jesus being declared to be God’s Son right when the Spirit came to abode in him without measure is why he was declared to be God’s Son at that moment, he was born of God, born of His Spirit called to righteousness to walk in all of God’s ways to fulfill God’s covenant. He is to be identified as the promised son of David whom God promised He would be a Father to and not take His mercy away from him, but to settle him into His House and His kingdom forever giving him an eternal throne.

    Psalms 2 is fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead and received the promised Holy Spirit, that day God begat Jesus, he was begotten of God, begotten of God’s Spirit with a promise to never be able to die again. 

     

    #943051
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: When Jesus was baptized he then was born of God’s Spirit!

    Berean: There is a difference between

    being born of the Spirit and

    “the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him”

    Me: That’s right Berean, but Jodi’s perspective despite the terms she uses is

    THAT JESUS IS BORN OF GOD’S SPIRIT is not related to GOD’S SPIRIT AT ALL, but related to

    the OLD spirit of mankind!

    Now allow me to expand on your perception Berean:

    The above, Jodi is your own corrupted gospel!

    Now, read when and where the scriptures emphatically clearly declare

    that Jesus was born of God’s spirit:

    Luke 1:35And the angel answering, said to her:

    The HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee,

    and the power of the MOST HIGH shall overshadow thee.

    And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    the Son of God. 

    Jody reading the above scripture we are aware that in Jesus’ conception, both

    THE FATHER ACCOMPLISHED HIS PARTICULAR TASK and

    THE HOLY GHOST ACCOMPLISHED HIS PARTICULAR TASK  in order for 

    JESUS TO BE BORN BOTH THE SON OF MAN and THE SON OF GOD!

    Matthew 1:18Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together,

    she was found with child,

    of the Holy Ghost.

    19Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately. 20But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying:
    Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her,

    is of the Holy Ghost.

    21And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins.

     

    Luke 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his wisdom and his answers. 48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 

    49And he said to them: How is it that you sought me?

    did you not know, 

    that I must be about my father’s business? 

    50And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them. 

    Jodi, in the above Jesus (NOT ME)

    A MERE CHILD OF TWELVE ANTICIPATED GOD THE FATHER AT THE RIVER JORDAN and confirmed that

    GOD ALMIGHTY IS HIS FATHER!

    Jodi answer please:

    READING THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES

    WAS JESUS BORN OF GOD’S SPIRIT 

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    OR

    WAS JESUS BORN OF THE HOLY GHOST?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    OR

    WAS JESUS BORN BOTH OF THE FATHER and THE HOLY GHOST?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943052
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    NO, what you say is all wrong.

    Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Holy means to be set apart BY GOD and the child to be born is indeed set apart, as in him God would fulfill many of His promises that were spoken by the holy prophets since the world began.

    Carmel, Luke 1 speaks of Jesus as according to prophecy that Nathan gave David where God would become a Father unto AN EXISTING son of David.

    It’s rather astonishing what you people want to deny or twist.

    It’s clear, “11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

    The power of God’s Spirit caused the virgin Mary to conceive, the power of the Highest overshadowed Mary and that which she conceived, directly according to Matthew, is the genetic line of her betrothed Joseph who was of the house of David, her. God becomes a Father to an existing son of David according to His word. 

    The virgin birth is of prophecy as well and it’s PURPOSE WAS TO BE FOR A SIGN UNTO THE HOUSE OF DAVID concerning a king of Israel from the tribe of Judah, not for God to impregnate Mary with His own son, like some PAGAN MYTHOLOGICAL god does.

    Jesus was born through the power of God’s Spirit, a miracle of God, where the virgin Mary conceived her betrothed husband’s seed, the conception of the promised son of David who God would make an eternal king and God would become a Father unto, begetting him of His Spirit and leading him in all ways, thus called to righteousness and rightfully called a Son of God.

    #943053
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You: Hi Carmel,

    NO, what you say is all wrong.

    Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 

    34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

     How shall this be,

    seeing I know not a man?

    Me: The above Jodi is directly the first proof that 

    JESUS’ PROCESS IS NOT OF THIS WORLD!

    Believe it or not, it’s your pigeon!

    Mary WAS NOT TO SEE A MAN 

    “WHY”

    SHE WAS NOT A PROPER WOMAN REGARDING SEXUAL REPRODUCTION!

    SHE WAS PURPOSELY PREFERRED BY GOD, AND FOR GOD’S SPIRITUAL TASK BOTH BY THE HOLY GHOST AND BY GOD ALMIGHTY FROM HER MOTHER’S WOMB!

    Once our parents sinned in the garden and rejected God, 

    GOD  WHO IS ETERNAL, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SATANIC PHYSICAL MORTAL WORLD AND IT HAD TO BE THROUGHOUT A HEAVENLY PROCESS!

    John8:23 And he said to them:

    You are from beneath,

    I am from above.

    You are of this world,

    I am not of this world. 

    ALL WOMEN WERE SATAN’S PROPERTY THROUGH EVE’S SIN AS SHE SINNED FIRST AND SATAN FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME OCCUPIED HER BODY, AND THROUGH HER BODY AND HER VOICE ADAM FELL!

    Genesis 3:17 And to Adam he said:

    Because thou hast hearkened to THE VOICE of thy wife,…

    Now scripture never mentions WHAT EVE TOLD ADAM, BUT FOR SURE HER VPICE WAS NOT AT ALL HER BUT SATAN’S FROM WITHIN HER!

    God could have said to Adam:

    “Because thou hast hearkened to thy wife,… 

    NO?

    He definitely used those kinds of words in order to make us aware that THE VOICE WAS SATAN’S! The fact that she died in that instant SPIRITUALLY.

    AND FROM THAT MOMENT ON THE WOMAN BECAME THE EMBODIMENT OF SATAN, THE PROPERTY OF THE SUBSTANCE OF FLESH AND BLOOD AND THE ENTIRE REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD.

    GOD GAVE BIRTH TO ABEL NOT THROUGH THE SEXUAL PROCESS AT ALL, BUT THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, THE MAIN REASON THAT CAIN/SATAN’S FIRSTBORN KILLED HIM AS HE CONCLUDED THAT THE MESSIAH MUST BE BORN THROUGH SEX! HIS PROCESS! 

    Now read Jesus’ own words( NOT MINE)

    John14:30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh,

    and in me he hath not anything.

    Jodi what more do you want from scripture so you would believe that

    JESUS  HAS NOTHING OF THIS WORLD! More scripture:

    John16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, and it is now come, that you shall be scattered every man to his own, and shall leave me alone; and yet I am not alone,

    because the Father IS with me.

    Jodi, Notice the simple present tense: “The Father IS with me” We use the simple present tense when an action is happening right now, or when it happens regularly

    (or unceasingly, which is why it’s sometimes called present indefinite).

    33These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace.

    In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence,

    I have overcome the world.

    Why did Jesus OVERCOME THE WORLD? I tell you:

    DESPITE JESUS CAME INTO THIS WORLD AS A HUMAN BEING IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, 

    HE NEVER USED THE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD IN ANY WAY!

    SATAN’S REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS BECAME VOID! 

    ALSO JESUS SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY BEFORE HE SUFFERED. FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT HE HAD TO GIVE HIS BODY AS A RANSOM,

    BUT ONLY AFTER HE GAVE HIS BODY BACK TO HIS FATHER

    SPIRITUALIZED

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST. John13:31,32, John17:1

     IN THE SAME WAY HE CAME INTO THIS WORLD THROUGH MARY  

    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!

    JESUS’ SOUL IN FULL LIGHT!

    John12:46 I am come a light into the world;

    that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness.

    THEN THE FATHER PROVIDED JESUS’FLESH

    HIS OWN SPOKEN “THE WORD”

    After he was born as a spirit through Mary!

    Genesis 23:6 And he took THE WOOD  for the holocaust,

    and laid it upon Isaac his son:

    WHAT THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE TELLS YOU!

    IT TELLS YOU JESUS THE SON OF THE FATHER CARRYING THE CROSS!

    and he himself carried in his hands fire and a sword. And as they two went on together,

     7Isaac said to his father:

    My father. And he answered: What wilt thou, son?

    Behold, saith he, fire and wood:

    where is the victim for the holocaust? 

    8And Abraham said:

    God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust,

    MY SON.

    So they went on together.

    Jodi, GOD THE FATHER, AND HIS SON WENT TOGETHER ON THE CROSS!

    NOTICE:

    MY SON,

    John 8:55 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day:

    he saw it, and was glad. 

    Jodi ISAAK WAS NOT BORN THROUGH SEXUAL ACTS BUT

    THROUGH GOD’S PROVIDENCE, PRECISELY

    JESUS AS A SPIRIT IN ISAAC’S HEART!

    SIMPLY TO BE ALL IN/BY HIM AND MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY!

    THE BEGINNING OF ALL GOD’S BEGINNINGS

    John8:25 They said therefore to him:

    Who art thou? Jesus said to them:

    The beginning,

    who also speak unto you.

    IN ISAAC’S CASE:

    THE BEGINNING OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #943055
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    Again I ask you, what faith do you associate with and why do you fear sharing it?

    “GOD  WHO IS ETERNAL, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SATANIC PHYSICAL MORTAL WORLD…”

    Seriously!! The God I serve is active all around me.

    “ALL WOMEN WERE SATAN’S PROPERTY THROUGH EVE’S SIN AS SHE SINNED FIRST AND SATAN FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME OCCUPIED HER BODY, AND THROUGH HER BODY AND HER VOICE ADAM FELL! “

    So all women belonged to Satan?!? At what point did they stop “belonging”?

    “AND FROM THAT MOMENT ON THE WOMAN BECAME THE EMBODIMENT OF SATAN, THE PROPERTY OF THE SUBSTANCE OF FLESH AND BLOOD AND THE ENTIRE REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD.”

    I think you’re treading a thin ice! The rest of what you wrote is why I again ask my question above.

    #943056
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    #10 doesn’t make sense, Jesus was in heaven at creation as God’s son, came to earth and became a man, only to return to heaven as the son again? Please clarify.

    Why doesn’t it make sense?

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    It makes sense that someone had to be the first to be with God and such a person would have been born directly from God because there were no parents so to speak. An apt title could be Son.

    So he was with God in the beginning and God made all things through and for him. Then when sin entered into creation, God used him to redeem creation back to God. Makes perfect sense to me.

    God sent his son into the world. He existed in the form of God and emptied himself and came in the flesh and further humbled himself from there. Now he is back in the glory he had with God before the cosmos and seated at the highest realm. Not only does this make perfect sense when you analyse it, but it is all written. It is not a hard thing to grasp. This is the revelation that was not known to all men. Jesus Christ is a mystery that has been revealed to us.

    And this plan was in place before creation itself. It does make sense to me that of all the worlds that God creates over time coupled with free will, that eventually sin would enter. So it has to happen at some point, but the plan was already in place to deal with it when it happened. But why free will then? Because without it, there is no love, just a program which means robots not sons.

    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world to our glory.

    When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

     

    #943057
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You think that the Trinity Doctrine is wrong and I agree with you on that.

    But you also seem to think that rejecting the Trinity Doctrine means that you need to reject Jesus as existing with divine nature in heaven before emptying himself and coming in the flesh. Why do you need to reject that? The Trinity teaches that Jesus is God and has been for all eternity. But scripture tells us that he was with God before the cosmos only and that before creation he was there and all things were made through him and for him. This is not what the Trinity teaches but scripture tells us so.

    Even the early apostles (after the twelve / Pre-Nicene) believed that he was the first to be with God.

    Here are some Justin Martyr quotes from around 150 AD.

    by the Word Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ,

    And that you will not succeed is declared by the Word, than whom, after God who begat him, we know there is no ruler more kingly and righteous.

    Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten.

    And the first power after God the Father and Lord of all is the Word, who is also the Son; and of Him we will, in what follows, relate how He took flesh and became man.

    We have been taught that Christ is the firstborn of God

    And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word, who also was with Him and was begotten before the works,

    And God, the Father of the cosmos, who is the perfect intelligence, the truth. And the Word, being His Son, came to us, having put on flesh, revealing both himself and the Father, giving to us in himself resurrection from the dead, and eternal life afterwards. And this is Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Lord.

    #943058
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    Please explain what each of these verses you sited mean and how they relate to a preexisting son in heaven at creation:

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    #943059
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    Jesus is the Son of God BEFORE HE CAME “IN THE FLESH”
    PROV.30: 4
    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
    At his baptism, he did not become the Son of God, rather he was confirmed SON OF GOD.
    As well as at the transfiguration:

    Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    By becoming Son of man by the Power of the Holy Spirit, He became Son of GOD in a NEW sense. THIS WAS POWERFULLY DECLARED AFTER HIS RESURRECTION:

    ROMANS 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    [4] And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Acts.8
    [37] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
    Acts.9
    [20] And straightway he(Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

    More later….
    Not much time right now.

    🙏

    #943061
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    Clarity of a statement you made in an earlier post (#942749) about how the trinity doctrine and preexistence doctrine are not mutually exclusive. This means both are truth; yet you reject the one and except the other. Was this a typo?

    I will assert both doctrines are false teachings, because this wasn’t the Jewish belief. If it was, it would have been splashed all over scripture; however, we have been taught to read between the lines and to simply believe what we have been told is truth. Both beliefs are created by man. You quote Justin Martyr as a source of evidence to support preexistence. He studied philosophy and viewed Christianity through a Greek philosophical lens. In his writing First Apologies, he presents Christian truth within the context of current Greek thought. Which thought would your prefer, Greek or Hebrew?

    In John’s first epistle, he is warning of falsehoods coming into the early church and to be careful of them. This is less than 50 years after Christ’s ascension. I am puzzled how we don’t see the preexistence doctrine as a man made belief, let alone the trinity. Christ referred to himself as a son of man, meaning he was man, of mankind – not some divine god-man. What real benefit would/could a divine being have to descend from his heavenly place, come to Earth to die, and return back to his divine state to receive additional promises and authorities? How would/could he truly know what it was to be a man? Now, if a man were to set all earthly things aside (emptying himself of earthly desires and wants), be tempted by all man can be temped with, completely do the will of the Almighty, and then freely and willingly lay his life down for all mankind with the promise of being glorified to a higher state (now that’s real faith), which scenario is more powerful, which has more meaning?

    To put this somewhat into perspective, I would guess you would have no problem putting yourself in harms way to save a spouse, child, a family member, or even a close friend; but, would you do the same for an unruly neighbor, the bully who created fear in your child, the murderer, the liar, the cheat, etc.? This is what Christ did, and in doing so, was glorified to a “divine” state, as he is now at the right hand of the Father. Christ didn’t come down from heaven as a “magical sperm” to impregnate a woman. Moses tells us who this Messiah will be in Duet. 18:15, and God confirms this in verse 18 when HE says: “I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you. I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.” (Please note the future tense of all this) God didn’t say he would send his heavenly son down; he said it would be someone from “among their brothers” and would be like Moses. How is it we do not see this? We would have to reject these words from God himself in favor of our love for Greek philosophy! The “church” needs to wake up!

    This is what the Jews believed concerning the Messiah, from Everyman’s Talmud: The Major Teachings of Rabbinic Sages (pg347):

    ‘the sending of the Messiah was part of the Creator’s plan at the inception of the Universe.’

    From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created’.

    ‘On one point the Rabbis were unanimous, he [Messiah] would be just a human being divinely appointed to carry out an allotted task.

    Are you going to refute the Jewish mind? Prove scripturally what I have said is wrong!

    #943063
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    I will assert both doctrines are false teachings

    The Trinity is never mentioned by name or described. However, Jesus Christ being the first born of all creation and having first place in all things is mentioned.

    If Jesus Christ is not the Word or the first to be with God then who was?

    Bruce? Jack? Lucifer? Bob?

    If Bruce, then why aren’t all things made for Bruce and because of him?

    So why some random guy created on the spot 2000 years ago way after the sons of God witnessing the foundations of the earth being laid. Seems a bit weird that some random dude called Jesus became the main person besides God. Would seem more logical to have the oldest person ever besides God logically speaking.

    A little question for you. If you know it is not Jesus Christ, then you must know who it is. If you do not know who it is, then you cannot rule our Jesus Christ. Further, just read scripture. It tells you the truth about this too many times to deny.

    #943064
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In John’s first epistle, he is warning of falsehoods coming into the early church and to be careful of them. This is less than 50 years after Christ’s ascension. I am puzzled how we don’t see the preexistence doctrine as a man made belief, let alone the trinity. Christ referred to himself as a son of man, meaning he was man, of mankind – not some divine god-man.

    And Son of God. He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, humbled himself, obedient to God, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and taken up into the glory he had with the Father before the universe. This is written in the New Testament. I believe in the doctrines and message in the New Testament as well as the Old. He is both son of Man and son of God. Do you not believe in the New Testament.

    #943065
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    because this wasn’t the Jewish belief.

    Jewish belief denies that Jesus is the Messiah. If Jewish belief is the standard for truth, then why do you believe that Jesus is the messiah? Or maybe you don’t?

    For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

    #943066
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Are you going to refute the Jewish mind? Prove scripturally what I have said is wrong!

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.…

    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor…

    #943067
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Please explain what each of these verses you sited mean and how they relate to a preexisting son in heaven at creation:

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Just read it. It talks about before all things and ages. A better question is how do these and many other verses actually mean the opposite of what they are saying. Because you believe the opposite.

    Explain to yourself how He is before all things means he is not before all things.

    Show yourself how that through him the cosmos was made really means that the cosmos was not made through and for him.

    Convince yourself using reason that God made the universe through the Son actually means your conclusion that he did not make the universe through the Son.

    I don’t need to explain these scriptures as I only need to quote them to get opposition. It is you who needs to do the explaining. And you do not need to explain it to me but to yourself.

    I’m good. I don’t even need to hear your explanation as to how you justify this to yourself. It’s something you need to work out for yourself.

    #943068
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

     

    “This is what the Jews believed concerning the Messiah, from Everyman’s Talmud: The Major Teachings of Rabbinic Sages (pg347):

    ‘the sending of the Messiah was part of the Creator’s plan at the inception of the Universe.’

    ‘From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created’.

    ‘On one point the Rabbis were unanimous, he [Messiah] would be just a human being divinely appointed to carry out an allotted task.’

    Are you going to refute the Jewish mind? Prove scripturally what I have said is wrong!”

    Me

    The eminent Rabi Louis Finkelstein, the head of The Jewish Theological Seminary
    of America, often referred to as “The Vatican of Judaism”, in his Foreword to his First Edition of his world famous classic “The Pharisees, The Sociological
    Background of Their Faith”, on page XXI states:
    “… Judaism . . . Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval
    Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But
    throughout these changes in name … the spirit of the ancient Pharisees survives,
    unaltered … From Palestine to Babylonia; from Babylonia to North Africa, Italy,
    Spain, France and Germany; from these to Poland, Russia, and eastern Europe
    generally, ancient Pharisaism has wandered “demonstrates the enduring importance
    which attaches to Pharisaism as a religious movement …”

    What did Jesus have to say about the religion of the Pharisees? Jesus said, they masqueraded
    as religious men who have the oracles of God, but they were really irreligious, teaching instead the
    doctrines of men.
    Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do
    thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when
    they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the
    commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour
    thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
    But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever
    thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall
    be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your
    tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people
    draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their
    heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
    commandments of men. (Matthew 15:1-9 AV)
    To what traditions was Jesus referring when he upbraided the Pharisees for using them to
    transgress and replace the laws of God? Can we find out about those traditions today? Yes; the
    Talmud is a codification of the traditions of the scribes and Pharisees to which Jesus spoke. Michael
    Rodkinson (M. Levi Frumkin), who wrote the first English translation of the Babylonian Talmud,
    states the following in his book The History of the Talmud:
    Is the literature that Jesus was familiar with in his early years yet in existence in the
    world? Is it possible for us to get at it? To such inquiries the learned class of Jewish
    rabbis answer by holding up the Talmud . The Talmud then, is the written form
    of that which, in the time of Jesus, was called the Traditions of the Elders, and
    to which he makes frequent allusions.
    During the time of Christ the Scribes and Pharisees were constantly heckling and challenging
    Jesus, and it was they who plotted his crucifixion. Read what Jesus had to say to those Jews.

    Woe unto you, scribes and
    Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but
    within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that
    which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe
    unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres,
    which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and
    of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within
    ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
    hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres
    of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not
    have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be
    witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how
    can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:23-33 AV)
    Why would Jesus use such strong language against the Pharisees and scribes? To answer that
    we should examine some of the Talmudic traditions that have developed over the years. For starters,
    the Talmudic Jews have a hatred for Gentiles. To them Gentiles are vile animals, who are unclean
    and have no legal rights.
    Citing Folio 114b of the Tractate Baba Mezi’a from the Babylonian Talmud, The Jewish
    Encyclopedia, states that the Talmud only considers Jews as men; Gentiles are categorized in the Talmud as barbarians.662 Elizabeth Dilling, in her book The Jewish Religion: Its Influence Today,
    explains the racial view adopted by Jews as codified in their Talmud:
    The basic Talmudic doctrine includes more than a “super-race” complex. It is an
    “only” race concept. The non-Jew thus ranks as an animal, has no property rights and
    no legal rights under any code whatever. If lies, bribes or kicks are necessary to get
    non-Jews under control – that is legitimate. There is only one “sin,” and that is
    anything which will frighten non-Jews and thus make it harder for the Jewish
    “humans” to get them under control. “Milk the Gentile,” is the Talmudic rule, but
    don’t get caught in such a way as to jeopardize Jewish interests. Summarized,
    Talmudism is the quintessence of distilled hatred and discrimination – without cause, against non-Jews.

    To be continued if God want

    Blessings

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