John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,921 through 23,940 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #943070
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..Welcome to my and Jodi’s world,  maybe you can do a better job then we have,    I have come to see  over many years, that, “unless the LORD builds the house the weary builders (us) build in vain “.   And also to them that have more shall be given, and them that have not,  even what they think they have (shall be) taken away  time.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

    #943071
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You take off on a long dissertation on the Talmud and Pharisees and miss what I actually said. The quoting was only to show what the Jews believe.

    Please explain Deut 18:15,18 and how we have a preexistent Christ.

    Look up Hellenism, this thinking was infiltrating the early church.

    #943073
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    You take off on a long dissertation on the Talmud and Pharisees and miss what I actually said. The quoting was only to show what the Jews believe.

    Please explain Deut 18:15,18 and how we have a preexistent Christ. Look up Hellenism, this thinking was infiltrating the early church. 

    Me

    Why rely on the Talmud and not on ALL THE SCRIPTURES?

    IS PAUL NOT RELIABLE?

    DOES IT NOT HAVE THE MIND OF GOD?

    TALKING ABOUT CHRIST WITHOUT TAKING ACCOUNT OF THE APOSTLES CAN ONLY LEAD US INTO THE WALL?

    I HAVE A QUESTION, DO YOU BELIEVE THE WHOLE BIBLE OR JUST A PART?

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:(2 Tim.3:16)

    ……

    Début.18:15,18 DO NOT contradict the fact that CHRIST PRE-EXISTED AND WAS GOD IN THE BEGINNING.

    AND What are you doing of   Proverbs 30 :4?

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name,👉 and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?👈 

    🙏

     

    #943074
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Deut. 18:15 (Moses speaking) Yahweh your God will raise up to you a prophet from your midst, of your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him.

    Deut. 18:17,18 Yahweh said to me (Moses), “They have well said that which they have spoken.  18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you. I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.

    Curious how God raising up a prophet from their midst (nation of Israel), of their brothers, like Moses (had direct communication with God) is referring to a preexisting son in heaven. Explain!

    #943076
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The New Testament shows us clearly that Jesus Christ existed in the form of God and he emptied himself and came in the flesh. If we reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God, firstborn of all creation, messiah, and the Word of God, then we reject the New Testament. That is fine as we have free will to choose to believe or not. We can only choose for ourselves. I have chosen to believe in the Jesus Christ that the New Testament teaches. I believe it is further revelation and if you try to form your whole doctrine from the Old Testament, then you will not believe in Jesus Christ because he is the fulfilment of the old covenant. The old made way for the new but hasn’t done away with it. The old is not the full picture and never was. It leaves people with mysteries and the predicament of sin. The new fulfils all these outstanding issues. And it was planned this way.

    As someone once said, if someone pays your speeding fine but you have no idea of the law, then you are not that thankful. But if you know the law and realise you have sinned, then you appreciate the messiah and the works that God has done through him.

    #943077
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: A man was to receive the Spirit of God and bring forth judgement to the Gentiles according to Isaiah.

    Me: Jodi, Let’s READ THE TRUTH!

    YOU SAID ABOVE:

    A MAN WAS TO RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    NO Jodi, THAT’S YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF AND REASONING I’M AFRAID!

    HOW LONG I’VE  BEEN TELLING  YOU THAT THE SPIRIT HAS BEEN GIVEN  TO JESUS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING?  Read and accept the truth please:

    Isaiah 42:11BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him:

    my elect, my soul DELIGHTS in him:

    Notice the tense, it is the simple present tense, NOT FUTURE TENSE:

    Jodi, We use the simple present tense when an action is happening right now, or when it happens regularly (or unceasingly, which is why it’s sometimes called present indefinite).

    IN THE CASE ABOVE JESUS, THOUGH A SPIRIT, ALREADY CARRIED GOD’S SOUL!

    THE HOLY GHOST!

    (1) JESUS PRE-EXISTED Jodi!
    Now let’s read and confirm this in other scripture:

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I HAVE NOT spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING:

    Jodi, THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    Jesus! THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD is TALKING! Carry on reading please:

    from the time before it was done,

    Me: ….BEFORE CREATION WAS DONE/BEFORE THE BEGINNING WAS DONE!

    I was there,
    IN THE ABOVE, JESUS CONFIRMED TWO THINGS Jodi,

    ONE THAT HE IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND

    TWO THAT HE “HAS NOT” SPOKEN IN SECRET, FROM THE BEGINNING!

    John1:1
    Now look again at the tense please:

    I HAVE NOT spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING:

    HAVE NOT!

    PRESENT PERFECT!

    Jodi, We use the present perfect:

    for something that started in the past and continues in the present:

    (2) JESUS PRE-EXISTED, Jodi,
    Attention please, here comes  THE TRUTH! Carry on reading Isiah 48:16,

    and now the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.
    Now just read the second part of Isaiah 42 :1,

    I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT upon HIM,
    I SPELL THIS OUT FOR YOU:

    Isaiah 48:16,….. the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.
    Isaiah 42 :1, ….. I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT upon HIM,
    BOTH SCRIPTURES ARE NOT ONLY SAYING AND REFERRING TO THE SAME TRUTH!

    BUT ALSO BOTH USE THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE!

    And we use the present perfect tense: for something that started in the past and continues in the present:

    Jodi,

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED, JESUS IS THE WORD SPOKEN OF GOD, AND JESUS HAD THE SPIRIT UPON HIM, FROM THE BEGINNING!

    MORE PROOF!

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands;

    HEAR THIS, you distant nations:

    Before I was born the Lord called me;
    Jodi and Gene and those who are in harmony with your corrupted teaching,

    the above confirms that

    GOD CALLED JESUS BEFORE HE WAS BORN!

    (3) JESUS PRE-EXISTED Jodi!
    DID YOU SEE IT? NO, YOU DON’T! LET’S GO BACK TO Isaiah 48:16  PLEASE ABOVE!

    Isaiah 48:16,….. the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.

    Isaiah 49:1 ……Before I was born the Lord called me;

    GOD THE FATHER CALLED JESUS AND SENT HIM AND HIS SPIRIT INTO THE WORLD!

    Luke 1:35And the angel answering, said to her:

    The HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee,

    and the power of the MOST HIGH shall overshadow thee.

    And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    the Son of God.

    Jody reading the above scripture we are aware that in Jesus’ conception,

    ACCORDING TO Isaiah 49 ABOVE,

    GOD CALLED JESUS! LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    ACCORDING TO Isaiah 48 ABOVE

    GOD SENT THE HOLY GHOST AND JESUS INTO THE WORLD, INTO MARYS’ UNIQUE WOMB Luke 1:46 above!

    JESUS WAS BORN FIRST THE SON OF GOD AS A SPIRIT OF THE HOLY GHOST THROUGH MARY and THEN, THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD FROM THE FATHER’S MOUTH:

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    Continue

    Isaiah 49:1… from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
    DID YOU GET THIS Jodi?

    GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST WITHIN MARY’S UNIQUE WOMB SPOKE JESUS’ NAME!  THEN WHAT?

    JESUS WAS BORN AS A SPIRIT FULL OF LIGHT OUT OF MARY AND ANTICIPATED MOUNT TABOR.
    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
    Isaiah 49:2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
    Hebrews 4:12 For THE WORD of God is living and effectual, and more piercing

    than any two edged sword;
    Continue. Isaiah 49:2…..in the shadow of his hand he
    HID ME;
    John1:20The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me:

    because he was before me.
    31 And I knew him not,
    but that he may be MADE MANIFEST in Israel,
    therefore am I come baptizing with water.
    32And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him.

    33And I knew him not;
    but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him,

    he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
    34And I saw,

    and I gave testimony,
    that this IS the Son of God.

    Simple present tense
    Me: Do I really have to spell this out for you? Are you really going to continue denying that Jesus was a man,

    THE SON OF MAN FROM THE BEGINNING!

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven.
    whom God CALLED  TO JUSTICE BEFORE HE WAS BORN? Isaiah 42:1, 48:16, 49:1,

    You: If Jesus was without sin,

    then he wouldn’t need to be baptized and he most certainly wouldn’t need to be called to JUSTICE.

    Me: THE ABOVE FOR THE NEXT POST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943078
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    Post #943063

    “Jesus Christ being the first born of all creation and having first place in all things”. Does this mean Christ preexisted or he was first to be raised from the dead and receive God’s glory?

    “If Jesus Christ is not the Word or the first to be with God then who was?” Christ is the flesh that came from the word; the next part read above.

    “So why some random guy created on the spot 2000 years ago way after the sons of God witnessing the foundations of the earth being laid.” Please read Deut 18:15,18. Not a thing “random” about God’s plan.

    “If you do not know who it is, then you cannot rule our Jesus Christ.” I can rule out Jesus, because Jesus isn’t God; as those who read John 1:1 believe [the word is God].

    Post #943064

    “And Son of God.” Other than the book of John, everyone called him the son of God and only in Luke 22 does Christ confirmed he is.

    “He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, humbled himself, obedient to God, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and taken up into the glory he had with the Father before the universe.” What do each of the phrases mean?

    Post #943065

    “Jewish belief denies that Jesus is the Messiah.” While Christ was hear the leaders rejected him as the Messiah, after Christ’s ascension didn’t the church flourish? Who denied Jesus was the Messiah?

    Post #943067

    “I don’t need to explain these scriptures as I only need to quote them to get opposition.” Try explaining them instead of just quoting, if you simple quote the verse without giving your understanding of what you believe it says, of course you will have opposition. The person reading it can’t read your mind, which is why I asked you to explain the verses with your understanding.

    Post #943076

    “The old is not the full picture and never was.” What did God mean then when HE told Abraham in Gen. 12:3, 22:18 ‘earth will be blessed in you’; ‘All the nations of the earth will be blessed by your seed’. Sounds to me like God was telling Abraham what he was going to do through Christ. Remember, the old is what the Apostles taught from…now what?!?

    #943079
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: A man was to receive the Spirit of God and bring forth judgement to the Gentiles according to Isaiah.

    Me: Jodi, Let’s READ THE TRUTH!

    YOU SAID ABOVE:

    A MAN WAS TO RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

    NO Jodi, THAT’S YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF AND REASONING I’M AFRAID!

     HOW LONG I’VE  BEEN TELLING  YOU THAT THE SPIRIT HAS BEEN GIVEN  TO JESUS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING?  Read and accept the truth please:

    Isaiah 42:11BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him:

    my elect, my soul DELIGHTS in him:

    Notice the tense, it is the simple present tense, NOT FUTURE TENSE:

    Jodi, We use the simple present tense when an action is happening right now, or when it happens regularly (or unceasingly, which is why it’s sometimes called present indefinite).

    IN THE CASE ABOVE JESUS, THOUGH A SPIRIT, ALREADY CARRIED GOD’S SOUL!

    THE HOLY GHOST!

    (1) JESUS PRE-EXISTED Jodi!

    Now let’s read and confirm this in other scripture:

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I HAVE NOT spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING:

    Jodi, THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    Jesus! THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD is TALKING! Carry on reading please: 

    from the time before it was done,

    Me: ….BEFORE CREATION WAS DONE/BEFORE THE BEGINNING WAS DONE!

    I was there,

    IN THE ABOVE, JESUS CONFIRMED TWO THINGS Jodi,

    ONE THAT HE IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND

    TWO THAT HE “HAS NOT” SPOKEN IN SECRET, FROM THE BEGINNING!

    John1:1

    Now look again at the tense please:

    I HAVE NOT spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING:

    HAVE NOT!

    PRESENT PERFECT!

    Jodi, We use the present perfect:

    for something that started in the past and continues in the present:

    (2) JESUS PRE-EXISTED, Jodi, 

    Attention please, here comes  THE TRUTH! Carry on reading Isiah 48:16, 

    and now the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.

    Now just read the second part of Isaiah 42 :1, 

     I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT upon HIM,

    I SPELL THIS OUT FOR YOU:

    Isaiah 48:16,….. the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.
    Isaiah 42 :1, ….. I HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT upon HIM,

    BOTH SCRIPTURES ARE NOT ONLY SAYING AND REFERRING TO THE SAME TRUTH!

    BUT ALSO BOTH USE THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE!

    And we use the present perfect tense: for something that started in the past and continues in the present:

    Jodi,

    JESUS PRE-EXISTED, JESUS IS THE WORD SPOKEN OF GOD, AND JESUS HAD THE SPIRIT UPON HIM, FROM THE BEGINNING! 

    MORE PROOF!

    Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands;

    HEAR THIS, you distant nations:

    Before I was born the Lord called me;

    Jodi and Gene and those who are in harmony with your corrupted teaching,

    the above confirms that

    GOD CALLED JESUS BEFORE HE WAS BORN!

    (3) JESUS PRE-EXISTED Jodi!

    DID YOU SEE IT? NO, YOU DON’T! LET’S GO BACK TO Isaiah 48:16  PLEASE ABOVE!

    Isaiah 48:16,….. the Lord God HAS SENT ME, and HIS SPIRIT.

    Isaiah 49:1 ……Before I was born the Lord called me;

    GOD THE FATHER CALLED JESUS AND SENT HIM AND HIS SPIRIT INTO THE WORLD!

    Luke 1:35And the angel answering, said to her:

    The HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee,

    and the power of the MOST HIGH shall overshadow thee.

    And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    the Son of God. 

    Jody reading the above scripture we are aware that in Jesus’ conception,

    ACCORDING TO Isaiah 49 ABOVE,

    GOD CALLED JESUS! LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    ACCORDING TO Isaiah 48 ABOVE

    GOD SENT THE HOLY GHOST AND JESUS INTO THE WORLD, INTO MARYS’ UNIQUE WOMB Luke 1:46 above!

    JESUS WAS BORN FIRST THE SON OF GOD AS A SPIRIT OF THE HOLY GHOST THROUGH MARY and THEN, THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD FROM THE FATHER’S MOUTH:

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    Continue

    Isaiah 49:1… from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.

    DID YOU GET THIS Jodi?

    GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST WITHIN MARY’S UNIQUE WOMB SPOKE JESUS’ NAME!  THEN WHAT?

    JESUS WAS BORN AS A SPIRIT FULL OF LIGHT OUT OF MARY AND ANTICIPATED MOUNT TABOR.

    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD

    Isaiah 49:2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,

    Hebrews 4:12 For THE WORD of God is living and effectual, and more piercing

    than any two edged sword;

    Continue. Isaiah 49:2…..in the shadow of his hand he

    HID ME;

    John1:20The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me:

    because he was before me.

    31 And I knew him not,

    but that he may be MADE MANIFEST in Israel,
    therefore am I come baptizing with water.

    32And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him.

    33And I knew him not;

    but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him,

    he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
    34And I saw,

    and I gave testimony,

    that this IS the Son of God.

    Simple present tense

    Me: Do I really have to spell this out for you? Are you really going to continue denying that Jesus was a man,

    THE SON OF MAN FROM THE BEGINNING!

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven.

    whom God CALLED  TO JUSTICE BEFORE HE WAS BORN? Isaiah 42:1, 48:16, 49:1,

    You: If Jesus was without sin,

    then he wouldn’t need to be baptized and he most certainly wouldn’t need to be called to JUSTICE.

    Me: THE ABOVE FOR THE NEXT POST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943080
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    “Jesus Christ being the first born of all creation and having first place in all things”. Does this mean Christ preexisted or he was first to be raised from the dead and receive God’s glory?

    who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    1. Image of invisible God
    2. Firstborn of all creation
    3. All things created because of him and through him
    4. He is before all things
    5. Head of the Church
    6. Firstborn from the dead
    7. To have preeminence in all things

    In your reply quoted above, you mention firstborn of all creation could mean firstborn from the dead. Yes, he is firstborn from the dead (see #6). That leaves #2. Gene basically believes that this too means firstborn from the dead. So he has to admit it mentions the same thing twice which is weird. When you read the text however, it seems clear that each point is a unique point. Thus, he and Jodi do not have an answer for what #2 really means because firstborn from the dead is already mentioned in #6.

    #943094
    Berean
    Participant

    @desire Truth

     

    You

    Deut. 18:15 (Moses speaking) Yahweh your God will raise up to you a prophet from your midst, of your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him.

    Deut. 18:17,18 Yahweh said to me (Moses), “They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you. I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.

    Curious how God raising up a prophet from their midst (nation of Israel), of their brothers, like Moses (had direct communication with God) is referring to a preexisting son in heaven. Explain!

    me

    This prophet preexisted in the form of God (Phil.2), and was made flesh. (John 1:14)

    And Proverbs 30
    no answer ?

    🙏

    #943096
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You end your post with “No answer?” Was I suppose to answer this before you posted it!?!? Or is there a misunderstanding in what you wrote; a translation issue between languages?

    What did you explain concerning the Deut 18 verses? Absolutely nothing! You revert back to what you have been educated in and say here’s your proof, just read it. Explain why you believe what you believe.

    Phil 2 does NOT mention anything about “preexistence”, it says Christ “existed” in the form of God; try again.

    John 1:14 flesh is what the word became and that flesh is Christ; next.

    Neither of these verses explain what both Moses and God spoke. Someone of the nation of Israel, who was like Moses, was going to come, do all God commanded, and the nation was to listen to this man because this man was chosen by God to do HIS will. The Jews believed it was going to be just a man, not a god-man, not incarnated God, or any other man made idea to explain the Messiah. Funny how through out the writings of the new testament Paul, John, and Peter refer to Christ as “a man.” Is it making sense yet?

    #943097
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    The Jews believed it was going to be just a man, not a god-man, not incarnated God, or any other man made idea to explain the Messiah.

    Me

    The Jews were also supposed
    know Proverbs 30:4 and not get stuck on Deuteronomy 18.

    And how is it that the Jews crucified the Messiah announced by the prophets, one of whom tells us that his origin goes back to the days of eternity (Micah 5:2) ???

    🙏

     

     

    #943098
    Berean
    Participant

    You( desir Truth)

    Phil 2 does NOT mention anything about “preexistence”, it says Christ “existed” in the form of God; try again.

    me

    To live in the form of God, one must be God. And the Son of God (Proverbs 30:4/John 1:1) was God and WAS WITH the GOD in the BIGINNING before the World  WAS (John 17:5)

    you:
    John 1:14 flesh is what the word became and that flesh is Christ; next.

    me

    ….AND THE WORD WAS GOD (THEOS) John 1:1

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.(Rev.19:13)

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness👉 he doth judge👈 and make war.( Rev.19:11)

    👉For the Father judgeth no man👈, 👉but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:👈
    [23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 

    🙏

    #943099
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Jesus is both,  firstborn, from the dead and firstborn into the kingdom of God,  how is that hard for you to understand?  Did JESUS not say,  (not me). “You must be born again”?  Even so he had to be born again also.

    Why are you always trying to make Jesus appear different then we are?  Jesus is the “first of many brethren to be born into the kingdom of God”, not the only one to be>

    Please tell us where the word “”preexistence ” is even in the Bible at, referencing Jesus’ actual existence as a LIVE BEING BEFORE HIS BIRTH on this earth >Forcing our text to say what it in fact doesn’t actually is a form of lying.

    Jesus said (not me), “I am the root and offspring of DAVID”,   QUESTION IS, do you truly believe him and what he said.   Please show us where Jesus ever said he preexisted as a living being before he was born on this earth?

    peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……..gene

    #943100
    Berean
    Participant

     

    @Gene

    “Please show us where Jesus ever said he preexisted as a living being before he was born on this earth?”

     

    Me

    Proverbs 30:4

    👉Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? 👉what is his name,👉 and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell? 

    🙏

    #943101
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Explain what you believe is happening in Proverbs 30:4; what does it mean?

    To say I am stuck on the Deut. passage tells me you haven’t any idea how to justify your belief to the passage. The language is simple and nothing is hidden in it, so it can be read and understood for what it literally says.

    Why are we back on Micah? Didn’t I explain it well enough the first time or have you rejected it?

    #943102
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Why are we back on Micah? Didn’t I explain it well enough the first time or have you rejected it? 

    Me

    Micah tells us that the origin of the Messiah dates back to OUTSIDE ETERNITY.
    OF COURSE IT IS THE UNCORRUPTED BIBLES THAT SAY THIS.

    Proverbs 30:4 tells us among other things that God has a Son, AND IT IS BEFORE THIS LATTER BECOMES FLESH. AND ALSO THAT SON HAS A NAME.

    🙏

     

     

    #943103
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and JESUS standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and THE SON OF MAN standing on the right hand of God.

    Isaiah 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. 24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. 25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. 27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God? 28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. 29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: 31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    Psalms 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. 18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Berean, I have provided just a few scriptures that directly connect to Proverbs 30. He who ascended to heaven is the Son of Man and this Son of Man is also descending from heaven. This Son of Man is the promised son of David. YHVH promised that He would be a Father unto an existing son of David and that He would settle him into His kingdom. As I have given you which you continue to ignore, scripture teaches us directly the image of the Son, it is one who is LED by the Spirit of God, it is one who is an heir of God, it is one where the Spirit bears witness to his spirit that he is a child of God. The man Jesus said that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. We are given that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness righteousness and truth. We are given that we are heirs of God, JOINT heirs with the anointed Jesus. We are given that the Spirit came to abode in Jesus without measure, a calling to righteousness. We are given that he who does righteousness has been born of God. We are given that a Son of Man was exalted up to heaven to God’s right hand.  

    What you refuse to acknowledge, the word of God that you treat like dirt to be swept under a rug for the sake of your doctrine, is truly astonishing Berean.

     

    #943104
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    Proverbs 30:4 IS saying THAT God hath a Son BEFORE THIS ONE IS MADE FLESH.

    ALL THE TEXTS YOU QUOTE, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST. BUT YOU USE THEM TO CANCEL THE TRUTH.
    YOU MUST NOT USE THE BIBLE TO MAKE THE BIBLE LIE.

    🙏

     

    #943105
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    So the truth is you can’t reconcile Deut 18 to a preexistent Christ; so are now choosing to ignore it.

    Prov 30:4, did your read the chapter? I don’t understand why Jesus has to be injected into everything read in the old testament? Are you sure you’re an Adventist, starting to sound like a Southern Baptist!

    Beginning in verse 1 we find a man Agur is speaking to two other (Ithiel and Ucal) and claiming to the most ignorant man. Then he proceeds to ask a series of questions in verse 4:

    Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended?

    Who has gathered the wind in his fists?

    Who has bound the waters in his garment?

    Who has established all the ends of the earth?

    What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know?

    Agur is asking these men what man do they know who has ascended or descended from heaven, who is able to hold the wind in their fists, contain waters with a garment, or create a world. Then he asks for the name or their child’s name of the one who has done this. Agur may not be the smartest man, but he does know that God did all this and man cannot.

    I did an experiment to see how another would respond to what they thought was being said in verse 4. After reading just verse 4 they responded with it sounds like God and a reference to Jesus. Then reading verse 1 to verse 6, they changed their mind, coming to the same conclusion as stated above.

    We need to stop making this so difficult!! Throw your doctrine out, get rid of your religion, and embrace what God has to offer.

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