John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,281 through 23,300 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #873543
    gadam123
    Participant

    First off, he didn’t create anything. God created all things THROUGH him.
    Second, if God gives him the power to judge or save then he can do that.

    I always wonder what is this “God created all things though him”?

     

    #873546
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Is it just me, or does anybody else get a notification that “jammin” has responded to you any time either Adam or Carmel post something here?

    I think the reason for this is because the topic is quite old. When that topic was created, the forum used a different platform, namely Ikonboard.  Then that forum was converted into BBPress, a forum platform designed for WordPress. It could be that older topics are missing some tags that are needed to provide certain functionality.  Overall, the older topics work, so I won’t try and find a fix. But I will try cloning the topic and I will test it to see if that fixes the notifications.

    #874047
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Test

    #877515
    gadam123
    Participant

    Islam isn’t going to save you, so let’s just stick to Christianity. Forget about the billions of people for now. Just answer my last questions about the first one or two people, John and Jesus

    Neither Christianity going to save me as I am skeptic on all these religious claims.

    It’s good that you dropped the idea of ‘billions becoming Christians’.

    The questions on the historicity of Jesus were already replied in my previous post.

    John as the writer of the Gospel no where mentioned in the Fourth Gospel. We are only debating on the super claims of this Gospel.

    #880988
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    If Jesus is not God from God, he cannot create anything, save anything, judge anything, ….
    This statement is pure human reasoning.

    First off, he didn’t create anything. God created all things THROUGH him.
    Second, if God gives him the power to judge or save then he can do that.

    Joseph was given all power by the pharaoh, but that did not include power over the pharaoh.

    God delegates. Behind it all, it is still God.

    Jesus is not God. He doesn’t have the final word on everything.  

     

    In the state of your understanding of the Word of God, it seems to you to be human reasoning, but the time will come when you will realize that JESUS IS OTHER THAN YOU THINK
    TRY TO TELL HIM IN FACE: JESUS YOU DID NOTHING CREATED, ….

    #881000
    sonofGod
    Participant

    Who? how about “what is the word”?

    The word, or logos is defined by a message not emphasizing the actual words or means used to communicate the message but the intent of the message sender.   Another Greek word, rhema, emphasizes the actual words used to communicate the message.  Both are important.

     

    Logos is the message, the intended idea or concept that is being communicated

    God’s written word is the logos, as well as the author of God’s word, that is God himself as well as the son of God who also communicates the message God intends for us to receive, believe and understand.

     

    Without considering the actual definition of the word logos, we lose the great intent of John 1.  that is, God is communicating himself to us via the written word and the word in the flesh, Jesus Christ

    #881009
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    When a person personifies an attribute of God, they often are called by that name.

    These are the twelve He appointed: Simon (whom He named Peter),  James son of Zebedee and his brother John (whom He named Boanerges, meaning “Sons of Thunder”).

    So while thunder is a thing, so a person can take the name of that.

    He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.

    And we know that the Word of God was WITH God.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God…

    Even those who are saved receive a special name.

    Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

    So let’s apply some common sense to this. If the Son of God is called Jesus, then he is Jesus and is the Son of God. If he is called ‘The Word of God’, then he is the Word of God.

    #881917
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    ME: BUT JESUS CHRIST POSSESSES THE UNIQUE GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH!
    SATAN’S DREAM!

    YOU: In which scripture(s) can I read about “glorified spiritual flesh”?  

    1 Corinthians 15: 44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 45The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit…..  53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.

    John6:61But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this

    scandalize you?

     62 If then you shall see THE SON OF MAN

    (IN THE GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH)

    ascend up where he was before?

    JESUS CHRIST IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER, THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS John17:5

    63It is the spirit that quickeneth:

    the FLESH PROFITHET NOTHING.

    The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

    As clear as crystal Mr. Mike: DESPITE THE FACT THAT JESUS ASCENDED BACK TO HEAVEN IN FLESH, WHERE HE IS NOW MANIFESTING HIMSELF IN FLESH,

    THAT KIND OF FLESH IS SPIRITUAL AS WELL, 1Corinthians 15 above, NOT 

    FLESH AND BLOOD EARTHLY BUT HEAVENLY ALL SPIRITUAL. 

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God,

    being put to death indeed in the flesh,

    but enlivened in the spirit, 

    19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 

    John 13:31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man ( “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE) glorified,

    and God (SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE) is glorified in him.( IN THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH)

    32If God (IN THE HOLY GHOST) be glorified in him, (IN THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH)

    God (SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST) also will glorify him (THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH) in himself; (BECOMES GOD IN SPIRITUAL FLESH,)

    THUS, THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE and “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, ARE NOT TWO ANY MORE, BUT

    TWO IN ONE FLESH, 

    SPIRITUAL FLESH

    and immediately will he glorify him.(ON HIS DEATH)

    John 5:Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice

    of the SON OF GOD (OF THE HOLY GHOST) and they that hear shall live. 27And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the SON OF MAN (“THE WORD” made flesh OF THE FATHER)

    Now let’s read 

    Acts 20:28 ake heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein THE HOLY GHOST hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God,

    which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    HOW COME THE HOLY GHOST HAS BLOOD???

    OBVIOUS, AS THE HOLY GHOST ACQUIRED JESUS’ SPIRITUALIZED FLESH AS SOON AS JESUS DIED, AND JESUS UNIFIED BOTH

    THE SON OF GOD, OF THE HOLY GHOST, and THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” OF THE FATHER, INTO ONE

    GLORIFIED SUBSTANCE IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN!

    PRECISELY IN HELL  AND PREACHED HIS GOSPEL 1 Peter 3:18 above, BY WHICH HE GAVE  FREEDOM AND ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL THOSE SPIRITUALLY DEAD  WHO ACCEPTED HIS GOSPEL SINCE ADAM’S SIN.

    You: To me this idea certainly does sound like a dream concocted by Satan.  Are you absolutely sure that it’s Jesus filling your head with these things, and not Satan?

    POOR Mike, I’m AFRAID, WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOU, and also YOU Mr. Gene, since you WERE SO EAGER TO SUPPORT  Mike,

    BOTH OF YOU ARE STILL LIVING

    ON MILK!

    Nevertheless, YOU ARE ALWAYS IN MY PRAYERS!

    JESUS MISSION ON EARTH WAS TO SPIRITUALIZE HIS FLESH AND BLOOD BODY

    BY THE SAME CORRUPTED SATANIC PROCESS OF THE WORLD, FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHER, SPIRIT,  AND THE HUMAN RACE FLESH EX SATANIC, AND UNIFIED THEM

    AS ONE IN HIM

    BY WHICH TASK THE WORLD BECAME FUTILE, HENCE JESUS WON THE WORLD.

    John 17:20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21That they all may be one,

    as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;

    that they also may be one in us;

    that the world may believe that THOU (SPIRIT) HAST SENT ME.

    JESUS SPIRITUALIZED HIS BODY BEFORE HIS PASSION! Read and discern the truth.

    Matthew 17:1 AND after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: 2And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.

    Luke: 13:32 And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures today and tomorrow,

    and the third day I am consummated.

    Jesus’flesh achieved a  spiritual state one with the Holy Ghost, in His soul, and was ready to be sacrificed perfect, IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE! 1Peter 1:3.

    33Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following,

    because it cannot be that a prophet perish,

    out of Jerusalem.

    Reflect: Jesus died OUTSIDE Jerusalem!!!

    The above is a reference to His body, THE NEW JERUSALEM, THE BRIDE, John3:29, and FOR HIS BODY to become SPIRIT, 

    HE AS A SPIRIT, “THE WORD”  MUST REMAIN IN HIS BODY AND DIE, NOT OUTSIDE HIS BODY, IN ORDER TO DESTROY DEATH! SATANIC! GLORIFIED BY DEATH ITSELF!

    JESUS’ THIRST!

    THUS IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD, THE MOST POWERFUL SPIRIT, THE FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS,  ALL BY HIMSELF, TO ACHIEVE THIS, AND  TO DO WHAT JESUS DID FOR GOD’S KINGDOM ON EARTH! John17:4

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.

    UNLESS UNITED AS ONE WITH 

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, OF THE HOLY GHOST, 

    EQUALLY GOD IN EVERY SENSE!

    GOD IS TOO POWERFUL TO DWELL IN SOMETHING NOT OF HIMSELF!

    GOD HAS THE POWER TO MULTIPLY AND BILOCATE HIMSELF AS HE FEELS FIT!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #881919
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A ONLY HUMAN mediator who does not hear prayers cannot BE A TRUE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN …

    For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

    It seems the saviour that God sent into the world was a man. The final Adam.

    So all in the first adam will die.

    All in the final Adam shall live.

    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

    Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    #882279
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I’ve rebuilt this topic and merged some smaller old topics that were on the same subject. Not sure if this will resolve the “from jammin” problem.

    #882288
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……..An attribute does not mean the person or thing is actually that,  We call a airplane a bird right , is an airplane a real bird? No , it is not,  it fly’s “like” a bird does.  Jesus “himself” is not the actual word of God, he tells us what God tells him to tell us , just like all the prophets did..  Are the sons of Zebedee , James and John , really thunder?,  no of course not. They simply had an attribute of that related to thunder.  So it is with Jesus,  He spoke the words of God to us over and over, so he was called the word of God,  but the false teaching that he “IS” “himself” God’s actual word himself, is a false teaching,  because a person tells us what God the Father says does not actually make him or she the word of God themselves.  Jesus never said he himself was the word of God, in fact he clearly said this,  “the words I am telling you are “NOT” “MY” words , but the words of “Him” That sent me. 

    So there it is, right out of Jesus’ own mouth.  Question is do you really , believe what Jesus himself said. That the words he was telling us were “NOT” “HIS” WORDS. 

    NOW if we truly believe Jesus, as we say we do, then how could Jesus “actually “BE” God’s “WORD” “HIMSELF”. 

    AS I said you can be given a name based on an attribute you poses, but not “actually” be that attribute,  believe it or not,  Peter was not an actual “Rock”, the Sons of Zebedee James and John were not, thunder. Jesus is not the actual word of God, who he was quoting to us,  either.  GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING,  Just like you and your words are one and the same also. There exist no such thing a ” FLESH” WORD,  because words are “SPIRIT”, and Spirit is “not” flesh.
    Jesus is the “prophesied”  “word of God”,  that finely
    came into existence , and  it was the “Flesh”,  man Jesus.

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #882290
    gadam123
    Participant

    Proclaimer……..An attribute does not mean the person or thing is actually that,  We call a airplane a bird right , is an airplane a real bird? No , it is not,  it fly’s “like” a bird does.  Jesus “himself” is not the actual word of God, he tells us what God tells him to tell us , just like all the prophets did..  Are the sons of Zebedee , James and John , really thunder?,  no of course not. They simply had an attribute of that related to thunder.  So it is with Jesus,  He spoke the words of God to us over and over, so he was called the word of God,  but the false teaching that he “IS” “himself” God’s actual word himself, is a false teaching,  because a person tells us what God the Father says does not actually make him or she the word of God themselves.  Jesus never said he himself was the word of God, in fact he clearly said this,  “the words I am telling you are “NOT” “MY” words , but the words of “Him” That sent me.

    Hi brother Gene, very good post it is. Christianity created myths on Messiah and made him non-human and alien to us. This is because of the very writers of the NT which you are not able to recognise because you respect those writers. After all they were all human beings like you and me.

    #882292
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @mikeboll64

    Hi Mike,

    You asked:

    Danny, are those who believe Jesus is the Christ literal sons of God because they are begotten of God?
    Are those who are begotten of God not creations of God because they are begotten of God?

    Jesus Christ was no created, but begotten.
    He is in fact, the only begotten Son of God. (John 1:14, John 1:18; John 3:16, John 3:18; 1 John 4:9)
    To be begotten means that one has the exact nature as the one who begot him.
    This is evident in Adam begetting Cain and Abel, two sons of Adam
    who had the exact same human nature as Adam.
    In that sense is Jesus Christ the only literal Son of God!

    If Christ is the only begotten of the Father, then we cannot be begotten of the Father in a literal sense.
    It can only be in a secondary sense of the word.
    We will never be of the same essence or substance as Almighty God Himself!

    You and I, if we are believers, have been born into the family of God–we are said to be begotten of God.
    But we are not “monogenes/only-begotten.” That refers to Jesus’ deity.
    Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers on 1 John 5:1
    “Begotten.—Of those who have the new birth, in a general sense: quite distinct from “only-begotten.””

    If you leave out Jesus is the only begotten Son, you are leaving out the real Jesus and substituting a false one.

    #882293
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    This is evident in Adam begetting Cain and Abel, two sons of Adam
    who had the exact same human nature as Adam.
    In that sense is Jesus Christ the only literal Son of God!

    True. And Cain and Abel are adam / man, but not Adam / the man.

    The same rule and structure is in John 1:1c with the last mention of theos.

    #882294
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It’s a myth to you Adam. But that doesn’t make it a myth. Rather it is a plan. A plan usually involves steps. But for some reason, you have set a rule that the plan should have been fully spelled out at stage one. Despite the fact that divulging a plan upfront exposes it to the enemy.

    None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

    For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

    Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

    #882299
    gadam123
    Participant

    It’s a myth to you Adam. But that doesn’t make it a myth. Rather it is a plan. A plan usually involves steps. But for some reason, you have set a rule that the plan should have been fully spelled out at stage one. Despite the fact that divulging a plan upfront exposes it to the enemy.

    Hi Proclaimer, what was the plan? To bring preexisting alien from another world into our world as human through Virgin Birth, another myth? What type of human he was, a god in disguise of human or a godman as often quoted by Carmel here?

    Is it not mythology? We find so many such myths in India in Hinduism and Buddhism. At least Hebrew Bible does not talk about such myths on Messiah.

    #882300
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Plan

    The plan was there before the cosmos came into being. God who is the creator of life and worlds, gave certain living creatures free will in order to allow them to love him in return. But free will comes with risk. Creatures now have the ability to reject God and go their own way instead. It would be logical even for a non-thinking person to assume that within eternity, there would at least be one world that would fall. So God allowed it to happen when it did, but he let it be a witness to angels and the great cloud of witnesses to see the wisdom of such a thing. Of course, it not only led to evil, sin, misery and an increasing lack of love, but it ultimately leads to death. Now that this has happen, God who is love offered a way to be redeemed to those who were born into this sin. He gave them the right to become sons of God despite our sin. Here is what we know:

    The Lamb of God died for our sins.
    There is a Book of Life.
    It is the Lamb’s Book of Life.
    It has names written in it.
    They were written in it before the foundation of the world.
    Christ was foreordained to be a sacrifice before the foundation of the world.
    This sinful world however has a silver lining.
    It offers opportunities through suffering to attain certain wisdom that you would not get in a perfect world. And even the son of God learned obedience by suffering in this world.
    Further, concerning the mystery of Christ, even angels long to look into these things.

    When I have checked out of this world, I hope that the wisdom I have learned through suffering this sinful world will make me a better soul and to be a wiser person.

    If you never saw a world fall, then with vain imaginations, you could think about the freedom to do whatever you want when you are your own God. The reality is quite horrific though, because all good things come from God and when you reject God you reject goodness, love, life, and wisdom. What you get in return is the opposite or lack of these things. Death, hate, evil, foolishness, etc. And the argument about enjoying sin in hell is wrong too. You cannot enjoy anything without God as joy comes from God.

    In the end, there will be those who are taken out of this world to become sons of God. And there will be those who will fall with this world and will eventually become like chaff and be blown away in the wind. Surely witnessing this will put to bed any vain idea that rejecting God and going your own way could be amazing.

    #882342
    Lightenup
    Participant

    To all,

    In your opinion, what would be the difference between a created son of God and an uncreated son of God?

    This should be interesting. LU

     

     

    #882349
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Word of God

    One of the most consistent ways that scripture identifies Jesus Christ as the Word of God is the recognition that God created all things through him, that he is before all things, and that nothing was made without him.

    THE WORD

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

    THE SON

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…

    JESUS CHRIST

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. But not everyone has this knowledge. 

    Notice the last sentence above. Not all have this knowledge.

    Clearly we can see that scripture identifies all three persons above as the same person. First off, there is very little argument against the idea that Jesus Christ is the Son of God according to scripture at least. What is more controversial though is that Jesus Christ is Word of God. But as we can see, scripture clearly identifies the fact that all things were made through the Word, The Son, and Jesus Christ. Further proof to tie Jesus Christ as the Word of God is found in the Book of Revelation. It states that when Jesus Christ returns, he comes with HIS name, “The Word of God”.

    JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD AND THE WORD OF GOD

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems ; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD. 

    If the Son of God’s name is Jesus, then the Son of God is Jesus. Likewise, if the Son of God’s name is The Word of God, then he is the Word of God.

    Finally, we read in the opening verses in the Book of John that the Word was WITH God. This dispels the teaching that the Word was simply an attribute of God. Yes, the logos in still an attribute of God. But there is also a person with that name who was with God. Names often reflect one’s characters and attributes. We even see that Jesus gave a new name to some of his disciples to reflect their character. And from the verses above, we can see clearly that Jesus Christ is the ‘The Word of God’.

    #884515
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Lu,

    YOU:In your opinion, what would be the difference between a created son of God and an uncreated son of God?

    ME:

    A created son of God IS THE WORK OF GOD IN “THE WORD” OUTSIDE OF GOD, AD EXTRA

    LUCIFER THE LIGHT BRINGER!

    THE BEGINNING!

    The uncreated son of God IS THE WORK OF GOD IN “THE WORD” SINCE ALL IN/BY/FOR HIM,

    WITHIN GOD , AD INTRA ALSO

    LUCIFER THE LIGHT BRINGER!

    THE BEGINNING!

    HIDDEN IN LUCIFER’S HEART 

    THE FIRST-EVER DIVINE CREATURE HEART! 

    MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS!

    ONE SUBSTANCE AT ALL COSTS AND IN THE SAME TIME 

    DISTINCT! IN RESPECT OF LUCIFER’S FREE WILL!

    THE FACT THAT IN THE BEGINNING 

    JESUS AND LUCIFER WERE BOTH AS 

    THE FIRST-EVER PRIMORDIAL LIGHT!

    WITH THE DIFFERENCE THAT “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, WAS HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN TO LUCIFER, I REPEAT:

    FOR THE SAKE OF HIS/HER, FREE WILL  AND ALL OTHER CREATURES THROUGH/BY HIM.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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