John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,301 through 23,320 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #890312
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    We are created and later on, born again.

    First the flesh and then the Spirit.

    Jesus Christ is the Word of God who was WITH God.

    He is the only begotten of God and divine.

    But he came in the flesh.

    But now he is in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    And our bodies will be like his.

    He calls us brother.

    God calls us children.

    #890361
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Did John make up a fictional character who did miracles?  Or was this “Jesus” in John’s writings a real person that John knew?

    Adam: Sorry I am not going for your tricky questions.

    Nothing tricky about it, Adam.  Jesus is included in secular historical accounts, therefore he definitely existed.  Christians believe that he existed as the messiah the Jews were promised, that he taught the will of God and that his God performed many signs and wonders through him while he dwelt on the earth.

    John wrote about many of these teachings and miracles.  You deny that they happened, right?  Because Jesus wasn’t the promised messiah, right?

    So, starting at the beginning… do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth existed at all?  Yes or No?

    If so, do you believe that God performed many signs and wonders through him?  Yes or No?

    (My intent is to show that you have NO valid reason to not accept Jesus as the messiah who was promised by God.  Of course it seems you know my intent, and know I will be successful.  Hence your refusal to answer simple Yes or No questions.  But maybe you’ll prove me wrong.  Personally I believe you’ll just keep deflecting so you don’t have to answer, but maybe…)

    #890362
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Yes but the actual reason is whenever someone clicks the reply to your post you will get notification.

    Ahh… now that makes perfect sense.  I don’t ever click the “Reply” button.  I just copy and paste the other person’s comments into my post.  So apparently the notification only happens when people do click the “Reply” button.

    Thanks Adam and Admin.  Problem solved.

    #890363
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: I always wonder what is this “God created all things though him”?

    Me too.  What exactly does it mean that God created all things through Jesus?  We’re not given any specifics, so we’re left with the knowledge that God is the one who created, and He did that through Jesus somehow.  The bottom line is that God, not Jesus, is our Creator.

    #890365
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Admin:  Overall, the older topics work, so I won’t try and find a fix. But I will try cloning the topic and I will test it to see if that fixes the notifications.

    I still get the same notifications, and now there are a lot more pages to this thread than before.  Last week we were on page 839 or something.  Today there are over a thousand pages. Neither of these things need to be addressed as far as I’m concerned. 👍

    It hasn’t affected the function of the thread in any way, so it’s all good.

    #890366
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  It’s good that you dropped the idea of ‘billions becoming Christians’.

    It’s not “dropped”.  I said let’s just forget about that part for now.  I’ll come back to it later.  I just wanted to remove it for now because it was giving you an escape from directly addressing the questions I asked.

    #890367
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  ...the time will come when you will realize that JESUS IS OTHER THAN YOU THINK
    TRY TO TELL HIM IN FACE: JESUS YOU DID NOTHING CREATED…

    Point taken.  I always try to say that the scriptures don’t say that Jesus created anything at all – unless you count the whip he fashioned from cords.  I try to word it that way because we don’t know exactly what “God created all things through Jesus” means.  Proverbs 8 might say that Jesus was as a “master craftsman” at God’s side while God was creating the physical world.  Could that mean that Jesus took an active part in the creation?  I don’t know – especially when the meaning of the Hebrew term used is not fully known.  From the NET scholars…

    2 tn Critical to the interpretation of this line is the meaning of אָמוֹן (’amon). Several suggestions have been made: “master craftsman” (cf. ASV, NASB, NIV, NRSV), “nursing child” (cf. NCV), “foster father.” R. B. Y. Scott chooses “faithful” – a binding or living link (“Wisdom in Creation: The ‘Amon of Proverbs 8:30,” VT 10 [1960]: 213-23). The image of a child is consistent with the previous figure of being “given birth to” (vv. 24, 25). However, “craftsman” has the most support (LXX, Vulgate, Syriac, Tg. Prov 8:30, Song 7:1; Jer 52:15; also P. W. Skehan, “Structures in Poems on Wisdom: Proverbs 8 and Sirach 24,” CBQ 41 [1979]: 365-79).

    So for all we know, “nursing child” is the correct meaning – which would fit with him saying he was “created” as the first of God’s works, and the following verses where he says he was “born” and “given birth”.  Add to that the fact that in Proverbs 8, Jesus never attributes any act of creation to himself.  The entire passage is him talking about how he was there shouting for joy when GOD created this thing and that thing.

    Now consider this Job passage…

    Job 38:4-7…  Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation… while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Isn’t Jesus a son of God?  And doesn’t Jesus call himself the bright morning star in Rev 22:16?

    Could it be that Jesus was one of the many sons of God and morning stars that sang and shouted for joy while God created the physical world?  Could Proverbs 8 simply be Jesus saying that he was the son of God/morning star who was at God’s side when this creation took place?  Wouldn’t that align with Jesus’ position right now:  A morning star/son of God who has the closest relationship with his Father, and sits at God’s right hand?

    The bottom line is that, according to Jesus and his own disciples, God created the world, not Jesus.  So I don’t think Proclaimer will be in any trouble with Jesus for saying what the scriptures teach.

    #890368
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Mike

    The bottom line is that God, not Jesus, is our Creator.  

     

    Does God continue to support his creation (the earth, the suns, all the planets etc.) by (through) Jesus Christ in the same way that He (God) created everything by (through) JESUS CHRIST. ???
    …. GOD CONTINUALLY TRANSMITTING HIS CREATIVE POWER TO THE SON AND HIS POWER TO SUPPORT HIS CREATION …. CONTINUALLY …. ???

    Hebrew 1: 3
    and upholding all things by the word of his power ,.

    I BELIEVE GOD HAS MADE A LOT SIMPLER.

    WHEN THE SON WAS BEGOTTEN OF THE PERFECT LIKE OF THE FATHER, (see Hebrews 1: 3) HE COMMUNICATED TO HIM HIS OWN DIVINE ATTRIBUTES (OMNI-POTENCY)
    ….-SCIENCE
    ….-PRESENCE)

    THIS IS WHAT I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE SUPPORTED BY HEBREWS 1: 3)

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power. When he had by himself purged our sins, he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    #890369
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    sonofGod:  Who? how about “what is the word”?

    The word, or logos is defined by a message not emphasizing the actual words or means used to communicate the message but the intent of the message sender.   Another Greek word, rhema, emphasizes the actual words used to communicate the message.  Both are important.

    Logos is the message, the intended idea or concept that is being communicated

    God’s written word is the logos, as well as the author of God’s word, that is God himself as well as the son of God who also communicates the message God intends for us to receive, believe and understand.

    Without considering the actual definition of the word logos, we lose the great intent of John 1.  that is, God is communicating himself to us via the written word and the word in the flesh, Jesus Christ

    Hi sonofGod.  The Greek words “logos” and “rhema” don’t have any significant mystical meanings.  They both just mean “word”, and are used interchangeably throughout the NT.

    Jesus has, as one of his many titles, The Word of God because he is God’s preeminent spokesman.  He is a prophet and messenger of God – not God Himself.

    Cheers

    #890370
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  In which scripture(s) can I read about “glorified spiritual flesh”?  

    Carmel: YOU ARE STILL LIVING ON MILK!

    Jesus Christ GODMAN!

    Etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah for enough words to make an entire book.  🙄

    Carmel, try talking less and saying more, okay?  I await your scripture(s) in which I can read about “glorified spiritual flesh” – because you didn’t include any in your last novel.

    Also, I await the answer to these questions…

    1.  According to scriptures, did God perform miracles through His servant Moses?  Yes or No?

    2. According to scriptures, did God perform miracles through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    3.  According to scriptures, can God perform even greater miracles through any of us?  Yes or No?

    #890371
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    Do you hear that, Gene and Carmel?  The last Adam (ie: Jesus) became a spirit.  He is not a man in heaven, guys.  He is a spirit now, as are all of those who dwell in heaven.  Flesh cannot see, enter, or inherit the spiritual kingdom of God.  I learned these things from my Lord, who currently dwells in heaven at the right hand of his and our God, Yahweh.

    #890372
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: I’ve rebuilt this topic and merged some smaller old topics that were on the same subject. Not sure if this will resolve the “from jammin” problem.

    I still get the “from jammin” notifications, but it’s not a problem.  I was just trying to find out if Adam or Carmel WERE jammin, posting under new names.  It wasn’t that big of a deal either way, but thanks.

    Btw, since you merged some threads and changed the page count, when I started today on page 839, there were posts from Nick, terrarica and Kerwin.  Nice little blast from the past.  I assume terrarica has passed – as he had terminal prostate cancer the last I spoke to him.  I heard that Kerwin was also in very bad health.  Maybe I’ll talk to them again after the resurrection.  How about Nick?  Any word from him lately?

    #890373
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Christianity created myths on Messiah and made him non-human and alien to us.

    Do you also consider God to be a “myth” and “alien to us” because He is also “non-human”?

    #890374
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Does God continue to support his creation (the earth, the suns, all the planets etc.) by (through) Jesus Christ in the same way that He (God) created everything by (through) JESUS CHRIST. ???
    …. GOD CONTINUALLY TRANSMITTING HIS CREATIVE POWER TO THE SON AND HIS POWER TO SUPPORT HIS CREATION …. CONTINUALLY …. ???

    Hebrew 1: 3
    and upholding all things by the word of his power ,.

    Jesus Christ is Lord. So he is in charge of creation. He delegates on behalf of God.

    For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    #890376
    Admin
    Keymaster
    #890377
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny: If Christ is the only begotten of the Father, then we cannot be begotten of the Father in a literal sense. It can only be in a secondary sense of the word.

    But how do you know that Jesus being “begotten” of God isn’t also in a secondary sense of the word?  What in scripture tells you that the Greek word “gennao” refers to a literal “biological” begetting when it’s used of Jesus, but a secondary sense when used of us?

    Danny:  You and I, if we are believers, have been born into the family of God–we are said to be begotten of God.
    But we are not “monogenes/only-begotten.” That refers to Jesus’ deity.
    Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers on 1 John 5:1
    “Begotten.—Of those who have the new birth, in a general sense: quite distinct from “only-begotten.””

    I’d ask Ellicott the same thing if I could – because it’s clear that he is also allowing personal preferences for what he thinks Jesus should be to make decisions for him about things we aren’t explicitly told in scripture.

    Consider…

    Heb 1:5… Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

    John 3:12-13… Yet to all who did receive him… he gave the right to become children begotten… of God.

    1 John 5:1… Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God.

    All three are the same Greek word – once used for Jesus, and twice for others.  Yet there is nothing in scripture that says the word is metaphorical for us, but literal for Jesus, right?  You want that to be the case, but scripture doesn’t tell us it’s the case.  Can you agree to that?

    Now consider…

    John 3:16… For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son…

    Heb 11:17… By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son…

    Again, it is the same Greek word in both verses.  Since we know that Abraham had eight sons, we also know that “only begotten” in reference to Isaac isn’t literal, right?  We also know that God has millions of sons – so what in scripture tells us that “only begotten” in reference to Jesus absolutely positively must be literal?

    The answer is “nothing”, Danny.  There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says Jesus’ “only begotten” status is literal, while Isaac’s is not.  There is nothing in scripture to say that “begotten” is literal when it comes to Jesus, but metaphorical when it comes to others who are begotten of God.

    You are free to believe these things like Ellicott does.  I just want you to understand that there is nothing in the scriptures or the Greek language that makes those things true.  It is just a belief you have because of your personal desire for Jesus to be something more than what the scriptures teach about him.

    The scriptures teach that Jesus is a son, servant, messiah, spokesman, priest, holy one, prophet, sacrificial lamb, and angel OF God… not God Himself – and certainly not a member in some unscriptural “Godhead”.

    The scriptures do use the words “gennao” and “monogenes” of Jesus – but they use those same words of people other than Jesus too.  And the scriptures also use created as the first of God’s works”, “firstborn of every creature, and “beginning of the creation by God” in reference to Jesus.

    And finally, any living thing which has ever been begotten is a new creation that didn’t exist before it was begotten.  So whether we’re talking about Jesus himself, or the ones who accept him as God’s messiah, those who are begotten of God are also creations of God.

    Cheers

    #890381
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  In your opinion, what would be the difference between a created son of God and an uncreated son of God?

    Right off the bat…

    1.  The former is scriptural for all sons of God, while the latter is not said in scripture to apply to any son of God.

    2.  The former is logical, since no son exists until he is brought into existence by his father (who always exists prior to his son coming into existence).  The latter would therefore be illogical.

    #890382
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: LUCIFER THE LIGHT BRINGER!
    THE BEGINNING!
    HIDDEN IN LUCIFER’S HEART 

    THE FIRST-EVER DIVINE CREATURE HEART! 
    MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS!

    Here is who Carmel is describing…

    baphom

    I fear Satan has taken control of Carmel.

    #890399
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: 2.

    The former is logical, since no son exists until he is brought into existence by his father (who always exists prior to his son coming into existence). The latter would therefore be illogical.

    You believe that the Eternal One was not always a father, right?

    #890400
    gadam123
    Participant

    Nothing tricky about it, Adam.  Jesus is included in secular historical accounts, therefore he definitely existed.  Christians believe that he existed as the messiah the Jews were promised, that he taught the will of God and that his God performed many signs and wonders through him while he dwelt on the earth.

    Hi Mike thanks for your replies to my posts. Yes I am not disputing his existence as a Jewish man. Regarding his Messiahship it was rejected the Jews of his time and is being debated these days. Performing signs and wonders nothing new to Hebrew scriptures when we take the examples of Moses, Elijah, Elisha and other men of God. But that can not make him Messiah.

    (My intent is to show that you have NO valid reason to not accept Jesus as the messiah who was promised by God.  Of course it seems you know my intent, and know I will be successful.  Hence your refusal to answer simple Yes or No questions.  But maybe you’ll prove me wrong.  Personally I believe you’ll just keep deflecting so you don’t have to answer, but maybe…)

    So it’s your rightful conclusion on me? If you want debate on Jesus’ Messiahship please come to the appropriate thread. You can find plenty of arguments on the topic.

     

Viewing 20 posts - 23,301 through 23,320 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account