John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,181 through 23,200 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #873390
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Why would “God” give a revelation about coming events to “God”?  Wouldn’t “God” already know about these things?

    Carmel: I REPEAT IT FOR YOU:

    WHY WOULD “GOD” …………

    THAT WILL DO Mike, 

    CAN YOU SEE MY DOCTRINE, Mike?

    Odd response.  Okay, now just answer the question for real.  Thanks.

    #873391
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: EXPLAIN PLEASE HOW YOU DETERMINE SOMETHING TRUE ON THIS PLANET!

    Explain please about this “planet” thing of which you speak.  Where can I read about it in the scriptures?  How did you determine the truth about it?

    #873393
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  But God and god in English doesn’t really work because we think big God and little or false god so now you have two or more Gods / gods.

    You get so close every time, but then fizzle out for personal reasons.  You told me that you refuse to speak the scriptural truth that Jesus is a god because you believe it will cause others to stumble.  You are right there in the category of people that Origen described in the statement you recently quoted…

    Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos (gods), and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked.

    That seems to be what has happened to you.  Your fear of proclaiming two gods puts you in a position of tip-toeing around the truth to appease others.  Well I have news for you… you are doing them a disservice by withholding scriptural truth and reality.

    The undeniable fact of scripture is that there exist MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth, but only one Most High God who is the God of all those other gods, and who created all those other gods.  Jesus is one of those other gods.  He is the only begotten god who was created as the first of God’s works.  That firstborn status places him higher than the gods who were created after him, but he remains the same kind of god that they (Dagon, Michael, Molek, Gabriel, Ashteroth, Satan, etc) are.

    You think you are helping people by running circles around this scriptural fact.  You’re hurting them.  Best to tell it like it truly is, and let the chips fall where they will.  Because let’s face it, if you have to LIE to people to keep them from turning from the Bible, then you have actually directed them to a false reality that has no relation to the Bible anyway.

    #873394
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: We still have to agree on what “God in nature” means ….. because if in the end, we do not believe that Christ, the divine and unique SON OF GOD, BEGOTTEN IN ETERNITY, DOES NOT HAVE IN HIMSELF THE ATTRIBUTES OF HIS FATHER: OMNIPOTENCE, OMNIPRESENCE, OMNISCIENCE, HE IS NOT THEN THE OWN SON OF GOD DESCRIBED IN HEBREWS 1: 3
    …. Who being THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE IF HIS PERSON

    AND HE CANNOT
    (CONTINUATION OF THE VERSE:)

    …. uphold all things by the word of his power, ….

    First of all, please show me where I can read about the “BEGOTTEN IN ETERNITY” part in the scriptures.  Nevermind…  you can’t because it’s not in the scriptures.  So let’s just eliminate that part of your argument.

    As for your irrational idea that God’s spirit sons (or any particular one of them) must have omnipotence, omnipresence, and be omniscient, consider…

    Hulk-Hogan-Brooke-Hogan

    That is Hulk Hogan and his offspring.  As the offspring of a human being, she is equally human.  She likely even has many qualities of the one who begot her.  But being Hogan’s offspring doesn’t mean she is automatically as strong as him, and can pick up grown men and throw them across the room.  So you need to drop the idea that Jesus MUST be absolutely everything his own Father is.  It’s nonsense.

    As for the last part of your post, I keep telling you that Jesus has exactly the amount of power that his and our God, YHWH, has given him.  No more and no less.  Yet another example of this…

    Mark 12:35-37… While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, He asked, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? Speaking by the Holy Spirit, David himself declared: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet.”’ David himself calls Him ‘Lord.’ So how can He be David’s son?”

    Surely you realize that this is Jesus talking about himself, right?  He is the one that David spoke about in the psalm, right?  So my question to you:  If being born of God automatically makes you omnipotent, then why on earth would God have to put your enemies under your feet so that you can destroy them?  You’d already be omnipotent, and could easily destroy them by yourself, right?  You wouldn’t need your God to first put them under your feet, right?

    Please reconcile this scriptural truth (also 1 Cor 15:24-28) with your irrational idea that any particular son of God must automatically be omnipotent.  Please reconcile the fact that Jesus needs his God to put his enemies at his feet before he can destroy them with your idea of what Heb 1:3 means.

    I’m most anxious to hear the results of your contemplation.

    #873395
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: That which is begotten of the eternal One is part of the family of YHVH and is every bit a YHVH as the eternal One that begat Him.

    Would you agree to that?

    That which was begotten of Elvis Presley is part of the Presley family and is every bit a Presley as Elvis.  Makes sense?

    So now “YHVH” is God’s last name?  How about we try your analogy with someone who goes by only one name, like Cher or Madonna… or Jesus?

    Would you agree that anyone begotten by Jesus is every bit a Jesus as the Jesus who begat him? 😉

    Is everyone begotten by Elvis Presley every bit an Elvis Presley as the Elvis Presley who begat them?  No.  And since Jehovah and Jesus both went by single names (the equivalent of Elvis and Presley put together), your analogy fails.

    It also fails because YHVH is a name, not a species.  God’s “species” is “spirit entity”.  So yes, Jesus is every bit a spirit entity as the spirit entity who brought him forth into existence.

    And finally, it fails because YHVH is the name of God, not the name of His holy servant – whose name is Jesus.

    #873396
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @mikeboll64

    Hi Mike,

    You said that Jesus was created.

    You are wrong.
    Jesus was not created but begotten.
    He is in fact the only begotten Son of the Father, and as such,
    He has the same essential nature as His Father.
    This means that Jesus is also deity—God.

    #873398
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  we are begotten of God…  according to… 1 John 5:18

    Well done, Gene.

    1 John 5 American Standard Version
    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    4 For whosoever is begotten of God overcometh the world…

    18 We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.

    Oh my… it turns out that those of us who accept Jesus as the christ (anointed one) of God are just as much begotten of God as Jesus is!

    So Kathi, am I every bit a YHVH as YHVH the Father now?

    Berean, am I omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent now?

    #873399
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Michah 5:2 Say

    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

     

    The origin of Jesus thus goes back to the times of eternity, and it is therefore BEFORE ANYTHING WAS CREATED THAT IT WAS BEGOTTEN BY THE FATHER. AND NOT CREATED.

    Hebrew 1: 4.5
    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Paul to the Colossians wrote about the pre-existence of Jesus:

    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Not bad for a whip maker ….

    #873400
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  The word ‘theos’ was applied to judges after all.

    The rest of your post to Danny was spot on.  This part is erroneous.  The word “god” in scripture is used of actual gods (spirit sons of the Most High God) and of idols that sometimes represented one of those actual gods, and other times were made by men who for some reason believed that inanimate objects could help them or save them, ie: Isaiah 44:6-23.

    To my knowledge, no author of scripture called any man a god.

    #873401
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……you mistranslated the text,  it says this…..” whosoever is “born’” of God sins not,  but whosoever is “begotten” of God “keeps” himself,  and the evil one touches hm not.

    This shows that being begotten of God, does not mean “BORN” of God >

    Jesus was the first to be , begotten and born of God,  from the human race,  is the way I take it.  I see Jesus just as we, first born of the human race and then begotten by God And then born again into the Kingdom God.  Remember,  “You must be “born” again ” Jesus told us, and he was also , begotten of God and then born again ,  the exact same process must happen to us also.

    We are now being “begotten” but not yet  “born”  that happens at our resurrection. Then we are born into the kingdom of God,  exactly the way Jesus was. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours ……….gene

    #873402
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny: Jesus and His Father are both deity not just divine.

    Agreed.  This is scriptural.  Both Jesus and his Father are gods.  One of them is the Most High God of gods, and the other is one of the gods that the first one is the God of.

    Danny:  I believe this is what John 1:1 teaches.
    “what God was, the Word was”

    Agreed… to an extent.  The Most High God is a god, and the logos is also a god.  But consider that Bill Gates is a man and the creator of Microsoft.  I am a man but not the creator of Microsoft.  So what Bill Gates is, I am also… to an extent.  We are both men, but only one of us is the creator of Microsoft.

    Likewise, Jehovah is a god and the creator of heaven, earth, and everything in them.  Jesus is a god but not the creator of heaven, earth, and everything in them.  So what God is, Jesus is also… to an extent.  They are both gods, but only one of them is the creator of heaven, earth, and everything in them.

    Danny:  The terms “divinity” and “deity” can be confusing. In most cases the terms have identical meanings. However, some have used “divine” to refer to an angel, since it came from God.

    The word “angel” isn’t even in the Bible.  Both the Hebrew word “malak” and the Greek word “aggelos” simply mean “messenger”.  The word “angel” is an English addition, and is used when the English translators assume that the “messenger” in question is a spirit entity.  One example…

    Hebrews 1:5

    King James Bible
    For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

    Young’s Literal Translation
    For to which of the messengers said He ever, ‘My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?’

    The true translation is “messengers”, as that is what the Greek word literally means.

    Danny:  However, an angel would not be a deity, since it is not by its nature God.

    You didn’t learn this from scripture.  You learned it from men who teach things contrary to scripture.  Angels are most certainly gods.  Any spirit son of the Most High God is a god according to scripture.  According to erroneous men, there is only one god in scripture and in Hebrew culture.  According to scripture, there are myriads upon myriads of gods – and only one Most High God who is the God of all the other gods.  You should put aside the flawed ideas you’ve learned from men, and let the scriptures be your only guide to the truth of the matter.  One clear example…

    Judges 13:21-22 NET Bible

    The LORD’s messenger did not appear again to Manoah and his wife. After all this happened Manoah realized that the visitor had been the LORD’s messenger.  Manoah said to his wife, “We will certainly die, because we have seen a supernatural being!”

    The Hebrew word translated “a supernatural being” in the NET is “elohim”, ie: a god.  See?  Manoah had seen an angel, and said he had seen a god.  That’s because spirit messengers of Jehovah (“angels”) are all gods.  Every last one of them… including Jesus – who is called the Word of God because he is God’s preeminent messenger.

    #873403
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: I believe the following is correct:

    The Son is theos

    The Son is god

    The Father and the Son are theos

    The Father and the Son are god.

    The Father is not the Son.

    Two persons are theos.

    Two persons are god.

    There is one god.

    Two persons act together as one god.

    All scriptural except for the last utterly confusing bolded part.  Paul said there are many gods and many lords, and that Satan is the god of this world.  Can you refute Paul?  Jehovah called Satan, Molek, Ashteroth and Chemosh gods (using the plural “elohim” no less).  Can you refute Jehovah?

    If not, then please accept that your belief is unscriptural, and stop believing/teaching it.

    #873404
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: He was born not created.

    If a living thing is born, isn’t it also a new creation that didn’t exist before it was born?  Can you think of an exception?  Now, let’s examine three scriptures…

    Col 1:15… He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

    Is it even remotely possible that this verse means exactly what it sounds like it means:  That Jesus was the first creature ever brought forth into existence by God? Yes or No?

    Rev 3:14… And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

    Is it even remotely possible that this verse means exactly what it sounds like it means:  That Jesus was the first creature ever brought forth into existence by God? Yes or No?

    Prov 8:22… The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

    Is it even remotely possible that this verse means exactly what it sounds like it means:  That Jesus was the first creature ever brought forth into existence by God? Yes or No?

    Proclaimer:  God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.

    Clearly he wasn’t created through himself.

    Correct.  Clearly we are to understand that both Jesus and God are excluded from the “all things” that were created through Jesus.

    Acts 4:24… When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

    Likewise, we are to understand that God (but not Jesus) is excluded in the “everything” that was created by God.

    1 Cor 15:27… For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    In that one, Paul even spells out what most of us would understand on our own.  So let’s lay it out…

    1.  God created EVERYTHING in heaven and earth.  This would exclude God (who didn’t create Himself), but it would not exclude Jesus (God’s first creation).

    2.  God created EVERYTHING through Jesus.  This would exclude God (who didn’t create Himself through Jesus) and also Jesus (who wasn’t created by God through himself).

     

     

    #873405
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: After all, even your “GODMAN” said, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing”, right?

    John 17:1…. Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    John17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth;

    I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 

    5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

    John5:41 I receive glory not from men.

    44 How can you believe, who receive glory one from another: and the glory which is from God alone, you do not seek? 

    Mike, Can you see from the above scriptures what Jesus meant?

    The Father and the Son never glorify themselves, 

    But each other.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #873406
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean, watch how easily I use the scriptures themselves (or the LACK of scriptures) to address everything you say.

    Berean: For you Mike, Christ is an angel, a god…

    According to the scriptures themselves, what is an “angel”?  It is a spirit messenger of God.

    Rev 1:1… The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

    Was Jesus a spirit being in heaven when John wrote this?  Yes – according to scripture, because flesh cannot enter, see, or inherit God’s kingdom.  Was Jesus – as a spirit entity – delivering messages from God?  Yes.  Therefore, according to the very definition of “angel” (spirit messenger of God), Jesus is an angel of God.

    Are spirit sons of God themselves gods?  Yes – according to many scriptures.

    Berean:  …but not really THE OWN SON OF GOD…

    That is a false claim.  The scriptures tell me that Jesus is the Son of God, and I believe that.

    Berean:  WHO ACCORDING TO THE HEBREWS 1: 3 IS: , ….the brightness of his glory, (Glory OF God the Father) and the express image of his person

    I also believe that, because it is scriptural.  Berean, go outside and look at the sun’s reflection in a car window.  Are you seeing the brightness of the sun?  Are you seeing the exact representation of the sun?  Yep.  Does that mean the image in the car window is the sun itself?  Nope.

    Berean:  This means (to me) that the Son WAS IN THE BEGINNING WHAT THE FATHER IS SPIRITUALLY AND IN THE NATURE OF HIS SUBSTANTIAL BEING. THUS, THE SON IS GOD IN INFINITY…

    You cannot show me these beliefs in the scriptures themselves, and therefore there is no reason for me (or you) to believe them in the first place.

    Berean:  BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY.  HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD, HE IS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD…

    This is scriptural, and so I believe it.

    Berean:  …WHO IN THE BEGINNING WAS “GOD” AND WITH, FOR GOD, IN HARMONY WITH THE ALIVE AND ALMIGHTY GOD AND WHO WAS MADE FLESH AND LIVED AMONG US FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH ……

    All of this is according to scripture – except the “WAS GOD” part.  You only need the tiniest speck of common sense to know that if the logos was WITH God in the beginning, the logos couldn’t possibly BE the very God he was WITH – which means he has no choice but to be a DIFFERENT god than the one he was WITH.  The scriptural truth is that the logos was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.

    Berean:  …for you Christ created only one whip…

    That is the only thing in scripture that Jesus is ever credited with “creating”.  Actually it says he “fashioned” a whip out of cords.  There is absolutely no other scripture that ever even hints at Jesus creating a single thing.  There are, however, scriptures that tell us that God created all things, and that He did that through His first creation, Jesus.

    Berean:  …for me Christ is the creator of the universe by the will of the Father.
    This is the first lesson you must learn, because if Christ “THE WORD” is not the creator of the universe, he cannot BE THE SAVIOR …

    This is unscriptural.  God created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them.  Jesus is part of the EVERYTHING in them that God created.  But even though there is nothing saying that the only one who could save mankind has to be the one who created everything, that does happen to be the case anyway.  Because God, who saved us through the sacrifice of His own Son (and through many other saviors He sent many other times), is our ultimate Savior.

    Now… I’d love for you to either show me the scriptural support for the things you claim that I said weren’t in the scriptures – and scripturally refute anything that I said was in the scriptures.

    You’ll see that you cannot.  Do you know why?  Because my understanding is based on what the scriptures actually teach, while some of yours is not.

    #873407
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny:  Hi LU,

    You asked:

    Danny and Berean,
    The three of us are agreeing on both the Father and Son being deity and identified as YHVH, correct?

    I agree.

    Wait… did the Kathi Cult finally get a bonafide follower here – after over a decade of continually changing her doctrine as she was shown the scriptural errors in it?  Wow.

    Hey Danny, Gods name is YHWH, not Jesus.  God’s firstborn Son’s name is Jesus, not YHWH.  Best to learn from the scriptures instead of Kathi.  The written word of God remains settled… unlike Kathi’s ever-changing doctrine.

    #873408
    Berean
    Participant

    God the Father who has always existed IS FOR US HUMAN A MYSTERY. BY FAITH WE CAN ACCEPT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING.
    THAT THE SON OF GOD BORN IN THE DAYS OF ETERNITY BE WHAT THE FATHER IS WHEN IN SPIRITUALITY: WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT. BUT WHAT THE SON WAS IN THE BEGINNING WHAT THE FATHER WAS WHEN IN NATURE (hupostasis) ONE CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT, IT IS ALSO A MYSTERY; AS IS THE INCARNATION WHICH IS THE DEEPEST MYSTERY: A MEMBER OF THE DIVINITY WHO COMES WITHOUT REPUTATION TO TAKE OVER OUR HUMANITY (Philippians 2) TO DIE FOR US BY LOVE, WE CAN BELEIVE…AND EXPERIMENT.

    2 Timothy 2:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD (the divine Son of God) WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    #873409
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Acts 4:24… When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said,

    “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

    Mike, you: Likewise, we are to understand that God (but not Jesus) is excluded in the “everything” that was created by God.

    Proverbs 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways,

    before he made anything from the beginning.

    23I was set up from eternity,

    and of old before the earth was made.

    30 I was with him forming all things:

    and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

     

    Peace and Love in    Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #873410
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Danny and Berean,

    The three of us are agreeing on both the Father and Son being deity and identified as YHVH, correct?

    Berean:  Hi LU

    YES!

    Uh oh… two in one day?  Yikes.

    Berean:  MY FAVORIT TEXTE FOR THE SON AS YHVH IS FROM PSALM 24

    Psalm 24:1…Jehovah owns the earth and all it contains, the world and all who live in it.

    I can see in verse 1 that YHWH owns the world and all who live in it.  That would include Jesus as one of those Jehovah owns.

    Psalm 24:2… For he set its foundation upon the seas, and established upon the waters.

    In verse 2 I can see another wonderful description of our flat earth that sits upon foundational pillars that God placed on the waters below, otherwise known as the Great Deep.  And if I look at the NET translators’ notes, I can see that they once again try to apologize for the lack of understanding the ignorant goat herders who wrote the Bible had concerning the true nature of the earth…  “The description reflects ancient Israelite prescientific cosmology, which is based on outward appearances.”

    Actually, their description is based on the way God Himself described the world He created for them.  Of course Proclaimer will jump right on board and be the first to echo the sentiments of these translators – apparently oblivious to the fact that if we can’t count on the writers of scripture to be accurate concerning the world God said He created, then how could we possibly count on them to be accurate about anything else they wrote down?

    Berean, after going through the entire psalm, I wasn’t able to find anything that would lead anyone to believe the “King of Glory” was Jesus.  What led you to believe such a thing?

    #873411
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Yes. In the sense that he has rule over me.

    Agreed.

Viewing 20 posts - 23,181 through 23,200 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account