John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,161 through 23,180 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #873335
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: I believe the Father and Son are identical in every way possible except one was begotten as the only begotten (the Son), and the other (the Father) was the begetter. The Father was never begotten.

    The angels were not asexually reproduced from the Father. It was through the Son that angels were created, not begotten.

    Every living thing that has ever been begotten was a new creation.  So always keep in mind that it isn’t any scripture, but merely your own personal desire that leads you to believe that Jesus is the only exception to that rule.

    And Jesus is not only called “begotten”, but also “the firstborn of every CREATURE” and “the beginning of the CREATION by God”.  It is also written of him that he “was CREATED as the first of God’s works”, and that “his ORIGIN was from ancient times… from days of old”.  Again, it is nothing in the scriptures themselves, but merely your own personal desires that lead you to interpret these scriptures in absurd ways in an effort to keep them from teaching what they actually teach.

    So… if Jesus is identical to his and our God in every conceivable way, why did God have to give him a revelation to pass on to John?  Why did he not already know the revelation – and the day and the hour for that matter?  Why does he say that his own God is greater than himself?  Why does Jesus call him God at all?  Surely God the Father doesn’t have a God of His own, right?  So why then would an identical entity have a God of his own?  Why do the Apostles call Jesus – “identical to God in every conceivable way” – God’s holy servant?  This is just the tip of the iceberg.  You don’t have to address them all, but I’d appreciate an answer to a couple of them for now.

    As for the angels, you believe that the Son created them, right?  And if the Son is identical to God, the why couldn’t the Son (or Father) have asexually produced them as well?  What in scripture prohibits it?  (I assume you think the Son did all the creating, since although it’s clear from Heb 1:2 that God created the world through Jesus, you assume that means Jesus is the actual one who stretched out the heaven and formed the earth, right?  Correct me if I’m wrong.)

     

    #873336
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I believe the following is correct:

    The Son is theos

    The Son is god

    The Father and the Son are theos

    The Father and the Son are god.

    The Father is not the Son.

    Two persons are theos.

    Two persons are god.

    There is one god.

    Two persons act together as one god.

    For us, there is one God, the Father.

    For you there is one God, the Father and Son.

    You are still confused by nature and identity.

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    #873337
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Every living thing that has ever been begotten was a new creation.  So always keep in mind that it isn’t any scripture, but merely your own personal desire that leads you to believe that Jesus is the only exception to that rule.

    The rule is that there was nothing made that wasn’t made through the Logos.

    And who is the Logos? It’s Jesus.

    He came directly from God.

    He was born not created.

    Yes he became flesh.

    Jesus Christ the Son of God and Lord of God’s creation is an exception.

    He is neither creature or God.

    He is the mediator between man and creation, man and God.

    He is unique.

    He was the first.

    If the Word came from God, then the Word is different.

    John goes to great lengths to talk about the unique position of the Word.

    He was with God before the cosmos and was divine.

    God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. 

    Clearly he wasn’t created through himself.

    Let’s give him is his rightful place in our hearts and our understanding.

    #873338
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    Astonishing the energy you deploy to resist against the truth …..

    It doesn’t take that much energy to present you with the truth, Berean.  I will, however, take your comment to mean:  “Mike, I can’t actually refute the things you said in your last post, so I’ll just make a baseless claim that you are arguing against truth.”

    Berean, the scriptures contain the truth.  Can you refute anything I’ve ever posted to you as being unscriptural?

    #873339
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Jesus and His Father are both deity not just divine.

    I believe this is what John 1:1 teaches.
    “what God was, the Word was”

    Clearly in your own post you have distinguished two. God and Jesus. That is good as the scriptures do this too.

    Regardless of what the difference between deity and divinity is, you subconsciously or not recognise that there is God and there is Jesus. After all, he is called God’s Son. So that alone makes God his Father.

    The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

    #873340
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Jesus is no longer a man, since flesh cannot see, enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven. 

    Carmel: NO Mike you are not precise, NOT FLESH, but

    FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

    It’s called in scripture “flesh and blood” and “flesh and bone”.  Both phrases mean what “flesh and blood” means to us today when talking about a person:  a member of mankind.

    Jesus was once a god who dwelt alongside his and our God in heaven.

    Then Jesus was a man who dwelt on earth for about 33 years.

    Now Jesus is a god again, alongside his own God in heaven.

     

    #873342
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  1.  Is it scriptural that God performed signs and wonders through His servant Moses?  Yes or No?

    2.  Is it scriptural that God performed signs and wonders through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    3.  Is it scriptural that God could perform even greater signs and wonders through any of us?  Yes or No?

    Carmel: I am just waiting for the right time to do that!

    Mike, since your PERCEPTION AND MENTALITY regarding God and Jesus Christ is DIFFERENT TO mine they are simply

    ALL NO Mr. Mike!
    I am in the position to discern THE TRUE GOD, but I’m afraid YOU ARE NOT…

    I’m confused.  No you won’t answer these simple questions?  Or the answer to them is “No”?

    Carmel, it’s no secret that your perception regarding God and Jesus is different from mine.  Heck, yours is different from anyone I know.  It’s also no secret that a person self-promoting a more enlightened understanding than others have counts for nothing.  After all, even your “GODMAN” said, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing”, right?

    So let’s leave that out of it altogether, and just discuss what the Bible does and doesn’t teach from now on, okay?

    I claim that the Bible does teach those three things I’ve been asking you about.  Are you saying that the Bible doesn’t teach them?

    #873351
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    For you Mike, Christ is an angel, a god, but not really THE OWN SON OF GOD, WHO ACCORDING TO THE HEBREWS

    1: 3 IS: , ….the brightness of his glory,

    (Glory OF God the Father )

    and

    the express image of his person


    This means (to me) that the Son WAS IN THE BEGINNING WHAT THE FATHER IS SPIRITUALLY AND IN THE NATURE OF HIS SUBSTANTIAL BEING.

    THUS, THE SON IS GOD IN INFINITY, BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY.

    HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD, HE IS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD WHO IN THE BEGINNING WAS “GOD” AND WITH, FOR GOD, IN HARMONY WITH THE ALIVE AND ALMIGHTY GOD AND WHO WAS MADE FLESH AND LIVED AMONG US FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH ……

    If for you Christ created only one whip, for me Christ is the creator of the universe by the will of the Father.
    This is the first lesson you must learn, because if Christ “THE WORD” is not the creator of the universe, he cannot BE THE SAVIOR …
    Maybe I go wrong to explain it to you but it is so …. I pray that someone wiser than me shows it to you, if you accepte not to stiffen you in your position. …

    #873355
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean,  all mankind is created to be in the “image” of God,  Jesus was the first from mankind to achieve that Goal,  God the Father  has for us all.   Why can’t you get that in your mind, that Jesus is what God the Father has in mind for us all. We may not all ever have his authority ,  but we will share in his inheritance and Honor and Glory. That is what God the Father wants for us all.

    Why do you think it says this…..

    Eph 4:13….“till we all come in the unity of faith,  and  of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “perfect” man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

    Berean you need to really study this, and think about it brother, it really means we are to become “EXACTLY’” like Jesus is, in every way.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #873356
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene ,

    What caught your attention in what I wrote that you told me that?

    #873357
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    Hi LU,

    You asked:

    Danny and Berean,
    The three of us are agreeing on both the Father and Son being deity and identified as YHVH, correct?

    I agree.

    #873358
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    Proclaimer,

    Is Jesus Christ your God?

    A simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ will suffice.

    #873359
    Berean
    Participant

    Danny and Berean,

    The three of us are agreeing on both the Father and Son being deity and identified as YHVH, correct?

    Hi LU

    YES!

    MY FAVORIT TEXTE FOR THE SON AS YHVH IS FROM PSALM 24

    What do you think LU

     

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:8 Who is this King of glory? <span style=”color: #0000ff;”>Jehovah</span> strong and mighty, <span style=”color: #0000ff;”>Jehovah</span> mighty in battle.

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? <span style=”color: #0000ff;”>Jehovah of hosts, </span>he is the King of glory. Selah.

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:8 MY ZH MLK HKBVD <span style=”color: #0000ff;”>YHVH</span> ‘yZVZ VGBVUr YHVH GBVUr MLChMH.

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD<span style=”color: #0000ff;”> YHVH </span>  TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.

    <strong style=”color: #0000ff;”> 

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #873360
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Your words make Jesus’ humanity, seem different, then the rest of his human brothers and sisters.  Like, what is written about him  just applies to him and not the rest of mankind. But don’t feel bad, nearly all Christendom does that also. That is exactly what the “Doctrine of the Trinity” does,  it “separates” Jesus from the rest of mankind. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    #873361
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny,  Proclaimer does not believe Jesus is GOD,  neither do I, and others here don’t either.   We have a God and Heavenly Father ,  it is the exact same God and  Father, Jesus has.

    We need to Obey him exactly as Jesus did and does.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #873370
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Is Jesus Christ your God?

    A simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ will suffice.

    Yes. In the sense that he has rule over me.

    But he is not the Most High God and the God of the Bible.

    Rather he is his Son.

    It is the Father that reveals Jesus as the Son of God to a person and such a person is blessed.

    It is a man’s own mind in collaboration with the Father of Lies that makes Jesus to be just a random created man or the Most High God.

    Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.…

    #873383
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  in a sense? ,  he is either your GOD , or Not !

    You  seem like being a fence walker.  Not hot nor cold.  Remember what Jesus said to the Church of Ephesus.  Rev 2:4    “First love” 

    This also…….“but unto us “true believers”  there is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between GOD and men,  “THE MAN”  Jesus Christ” .  

    proclaimer , there are “NO” “small” GOD’S. 

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    #873386
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  But to us true believers like Jesus and myself, and those that are true , we “ONLY” HAVE “ONE” GOD that is a True God to us, and there is no other GOD TO US.

    Hi Gene.

    1 Cor 8:5-6…  Truly even if indeed there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we through Him.

    You believe the last part of the statement, but not the bolded part.  I believe the entire statement, and have shown you some scriptures where Jehovah Himself calls others gods. The scriptural fact is that there are a bunch of gods, and Jehovah is the Most High God of all those other gods.

    Jehovah can’t be the Most High God if there exist no less high gods.  Do you understand that concept?  Yes or No?

    Jehovah can’t be the God of gods if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God of.  Do you understand that concept?  Yes or No?

    Those titles (Most High God and God of gods) are nonsensical if there is literally only one god.

    It would be equally nonsensical to assume that these other gods are inanimate objects created by man, because then those titles for Jehovah would mean that He is the Most High of the manmade idols, and the God of the manmade idols.

    Psalm 138:1… A Psalm of David. I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.

    Gene, is David singing praises about Jehovah to manmade idols?  Or to sentient beings?  Which do you think?

     

    #873388
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny:  Irenaeus understood Jesus as more than “a god” or a divine being of a sort.
    He referred to Jesus as God.
    Let me repeat what Irenaeus said:
    “‘and the Word was God,’ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God.”[21]

    Hi Danny.  Irenaeus was Greek and wrote in the same Greek language that the NT was written in.  He did not use capital letters, and so he couldn’t possibly have written that Jesus (or YHWH) was “God” – with a capital G.

    I haven’t looked into his actual Greek writings, but I’d bet dollars to donuts that the statement you quoted above was written in Greek as…

    “and the logos was theos, for that which is begotten of the theos is theos”.

    He would have written it that way because that’s how the Apostle John wrote it.  The Greek writers of the NT didn’t distinguish between upper and lower case letters as we do.  Nor did they use indefinite articles (“a”, “an”) like we do in English.  What John (and presumably) Irenaeus did was distinguish the Most High God from the logos by calling Him “THE theos”, and the logos only “theos” (no “THE”).  Proclaimer just posted a writing from Origen who explains this…

    We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article [“the”], and in some he omits it. He adds the article [“the”] to logos, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article [“the”], when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the logos is named theos

    The true God, then, is ho theos (“the god”), and those who are formed after Him are (gods), images, as it were, of Him the prototype.

    So in English, we’d take the theos with the article (“the theos”) and translate it as “God” with a capital G.  We’d take the theos without the article and translate it as “a god” – supplying an indefinite article that wasn’t available to the Greek writers.

    Did you know that the first time the Greek NT was translated into a language that used indefinite articles like we do in English was while the ancient Greek of the NT was still being widely spoken – the time when Irenaeus and Origin were alive?  That translation was the Egyptian Coptic version.  And the Coptic translation of John 1:1c is, “and the word was a god.

    That’s what Origen was saying, Danny… that John knew what he was doing.  If he wanted to tell us that the logos was “God” with a capital G, he would have written that the logos was with THE god, and was THE god.  John did not write that.  John used THE god only for the one the logos was with in the beginning – not for the logos himself.

    The correct English translation of John 1:1 is, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was a god.”

    That’s why John also wrote…

    John 1:18… No one has ever seen God. The only begotten god, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made Him known.

    Jesus is the only begotten god… created by THE God as the first of His works. (Prov 8:22)  That’s why John was able to write that no man has ever seen God – even after thousands of men had seen Jesus.

     

     

    #873389
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: How about it Mike.

    David told us that the sun runs a circuit over the face of the earth, from one end of the heaven to the other.  Was David lying to us?  Yes or No?

Viewing 20 posts - 23,161 through 23,180 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account