John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,201 through 23,220 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #873412
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny: Mike,

    You said that Jesus was created.

    You are wrong.
    Jesus was not created but begotten.

    A synonym of “beget” is “procreate”, Danny.  Understand?   By bringing a living being into existence (procreating, begetting, birthing, etc) you are creating a new life that didn’t previously exist.

    So if Jesus is begotten, then Jesus is a new creation that didn’t previously exist.  And that would explain why he called himself the beginning of the creation by God, and why Paul called him the firstborn of every creature.

    #873413
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    Michah 5:2 Say

    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    Now go look up what the word you show as “everlasting” really means.  I’ll do it for you.  From the 25 Trinitarian translators of the NET Bible…

    5 tn Heb “from the past, from the days of antiquity.” Elsewhere both phrases refer to the early periods in the history of the world or of the nation of Israel. For מִקֶּדֶם (miqqedem, “from the past”) see Neh 12:46; Pss 74:12; 77:11; Isa 45:21; 46:10. For מִימֵי עוֹלָם (mimey ’olam, “from the days of antiquity”) see Isa 63:9, 11; Amos 9:11; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4. In Neh 12:46 and Amos 9:11 the Davidic era is in view.

    Now look up those scriptures they list where the same phrases are used, and tell me which of them has a meaning of “from eternity”.

     

     

    #873414
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike……you mistranslated the text,  it says this…..” whosoever is “born’” of God sins not,  but whosoever is “begotten” of God “keeps” himself,  and the evil one touches him not.

    I didn’t translate anything.  I copied and pasted the English Standard Version.  But the point is that all of the words are the same exact Greek word, Gene.  We can translate them as “begotten” or “born”, or even “brought forth into existence”.

     

    #873415
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Mike, Can you see from the above scriptures what Jesus meant?

    The Father and the Son never glorify themselves, 

    But each other.

    I don’t see the Father or the Son posting on this site on your behalf, do you?  And since they aren’t glorifying you, then you glorifying yourself as some “spirit-enlightened” person who has a better understanding of scriptural things means nothing to us.

    Like I said, stick to what the scriptures actually say – and leave out your comments about how we have “carnal knowledge” while you have “spiritual knowledge” direct from Jesus himself or whatever.

    And also try sticking to just one or two scriptures in your posts.  Then we can get down to the nitty gritty and see if those scriptures say what you think they do, or what I think they do.

    #873416
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    I know from the letter to the Colossians that the Son of God IS BEFORE ALL THINGS …. THIS MEANS ETERNITY ….. AND THIS IS ENOUGH FOR ME. I BELIEVE.😐

    #873417
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  Proverbs 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways,
    before he made anything from the beginning.

    Your version confirms that Jesus is a possession of his God – as are we all.  So I can live with it.  But if you want to get right on this verse, here’s a little education for you – from 25 TRINITARIAN scholars…

    NET © The Lord created 1  me as the beginning 2  of his works, 3  before his deeds of long ago.

    NET © Notes
    1 tn There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42).

    It is the last bolded part that speaks the loudest to me.  Considering that Jesus also says he was “born” and “given birth” in the following verses, “create” is the best translation of the word in this case.  But I’m also okay with our God owning Jesus as He owns us – since like us, Jesus is a servant of his and our God, YHWH.

     

    #873418
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  2 Timothy 2:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD (the divine Son of God) WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Let’s let those same 25 TRINITARIAN scholars enlighten us on your verse too…

    NET ©  And we all agree, 1  our religion contains amazing revelation: 2  He 3  was revealed in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, 4  seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

    NET © Notes

    3 tc The Byzantine text along with a few other witnesses (אc Ac C2 D2 Ψ [88 pc] 1739 1881 Ï vgms) read θεός (qeos, “God”) for ὅς (Jos, “who”). Most significant among these witnesses is 1739; the second correctors of some of the other mss tend to conform to the medieval standard, the Byzantine text, and add no independent voice to the discussion. A few mss have ὁ θεός (so 88 pc), a reading that is a correction on the anarthrous θεός. On the other side, the masculine relative pronoun ὅς is strongly supported by א* A* C* F G 33 365 pc Did Epiph. Significantly, D* and virtually the entire Latin tradition read the neuter relative pronoun, ὅ (Jo, “which”), a reading that indirectly supports ὅς since it could not easily have been generated if θεός had been in the text. Thus, externally, there is no question as to what should be considered original: The Alexandrian and Western traditions are decidedly in favor of ὅς. Internally, the evidence is even stronger. What scribe would change θεός to ὅς intentionally? “Who” is not only a theologically pale reading by comparison; it also is much harder (since the relative pronoun has no obvious antecedent, probably the reason for the neuter pronoun of the Western tradition). Intrinsically, the rest of 3:16, beginning with ὅς, appears to form a six-strophed hymn. As such, it is a text that is seemingly incorporated into the letter without syntactical connection. Hence, not only should we not look for an antecedent for ὅς (as is often done by commentators), but the relative pronoun thus is not too hard a reading (or impossible, as Dean Burgon believed). Once the genre is taken into account, the relative pronoun fits neatly into the author’s style (cf. also Col 1:15; Phil 2:6 for other places in which the relative pronoun begins a hymn, as was often the case in poetry of the day). On the other hand, with θεός written as a nomen sacrum, it would have looked very much like the relative pronoun: q-=s vs. os. Thus, it may have been easy to confuse one for the other. This, of course, does not solve which direction the scribes would go, although given their generally high Christology and the bland and ambiguous relative pronoun, it is doubtful that they would have replaced θεός with ὅς. How then should we account for θεός? It appears that sometime after the 2nd century the θεός reading came into existence, either via confusion with ὅς or as an intentional alteration to magnify Christ and clear up the syntax at the same time. Once it got in, this theologically rich reading was easily able to influence all the rest of the mss it came in contact with (including mss already written, such as א A C D). That this reading did not arise until after the 2nd century is evident from the Western reading, ὅ. The neuter relative pronoun is certainly a “correction” of ὅς, conforming the gender to that of the neuter μυστήριον (musthrion, “mystery”). What is significant in this reading is (1) since virtually all the Western witnesses have either the masculine or neuter relative pronoun, the θεός reading was apparently unknown to them in the 2nd century (when the “Western” text seems to have originated, though its place of origination was most likely in the east); they thus supply strong indirect evidence of ὅς outside of Egypt in the 2nd century; (2) even 2nd century scribes were liable to misunderstand the genre, feeling compelled to alter the masculine relative pronoun because it appeared to them to be too harsh. The evidence, therefore, for ὅς is quite compelling, both externally and internally. As TCGNT 574 notes, “no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) supports θεός; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς or ὅ; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός.” Thus, the cries of certain groups that θεός has to be original must be seen as special pleading in this case. To argue that heretics tampered with the text here is self-defeating, for most of the Western fathers who quoted the verse with the relative pronoun were quite orthodox, strongly affirming the deity of Christ. They would have dearly loved such a reading as θεός. Further, had heretics introduced a variant to θεός, a far more natural choice would have been Χριστός (Cristos, “Christ”) or κύριος (kurios, “Lord”), since the text is self-evidently about Christ, but it is not self-evidently a proclamation of his deity. (See ExSyn 341-42, for a summary discussion on this issue and additional bibliographic references.)

    My main takeaways are that “who” is the most supported translation – and even the important manuscripts that have “theos” have it as anarthrous (without the definite article “THE”).

    So even if you were to insist that the correct mss are the ones that have “god”, it would just say that “A god was manifest in the flesh” – which is absolutely scriptural.  😉

    But most modern translation are produced by Trinitarians, and they all have “who”, “he” or “Christ”, in that verse – not “god”.

    #873419
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Rev 1:1… The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

    Mike, Jesus Christ, above is GLORIFIED GODMAN and He possesses all God’s things as His!

    including the title of

    GOD AND FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS AND FLESH! Read:

    John17:10 And all my things (HUMAN’S) are thine,

    and thine (GOD’S) are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.   

    BOTH GOD’S AND HUMAN’S;

    GODMAN

    OK, Mike?

    JESUS CHRIST IN Rev. 1:1 ABOVE IS 

    THE HIGHEST AS ONLY HIM POSSESSES A

    UNIQUE GLORIFIED BODY BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH.

    I REPEAT FLESH,

    SPIRITUAL FLESH,

    THE ONLY FLESH WHICH IS IN HEAVEN POSSESSED ONLY BY 

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN!

    1 John 3:2Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God;

    and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. ( AS JESUS CHRIST IS)

    We know, that, when he shall appear, (IN FLESH )

    we shall be LIKE TO HIM: (IN SPIRITUAL FLESH, THE NEW JERUSALEM)  

    because we shall see him as HE IS. (GODMAN)

    John14:7 If you had known me, you would, without doubt,

    have known MY (unique glorified GODMAN personal) Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    1Peter 1:3 Blessed be THE God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Mike, JESUS CHRIST POSSESSES  THE UNIQUE TITLE OF

    THE GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ!

    The above title belongs ONLY TO JESUS CHRIST,

    GODMAN! THE HIGHEST!

    God the Father is only the Father of spirits; INVISIBLE! 

    JESUS CHRIST IS BOTH GOD AND FATHER OF ALL GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH

    BEINGS CHILDREN OF GOD.

    VISIBLE BEINGS!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON, THE KINGDOM OF GOD! READ AND ACCEPT THE TRUTH!

    John 20:17 ….But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to (THE GLORIFIED STATE OF) MY(PERSONAL)  Father and to your Father, to MY (PERSONAL) God and your God. 

    FOR THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER! on the last day of the Lord: JESUS CHRIST!

    Cont. 1Peter 1:3 ….who according to his great mercy hath REGENERATED US unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4Unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade,

    RESERVED in heaven for YOU, (THE GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH OWNED ONLY BY JESUS CHRIST GODMAN)

    5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation,

    ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Now read again:

    Rev 1:1… The revelation from Jesus Christ,

    which God gave him…..

    In the above PHRASE:

    WHICH GOD GAVE HIM means

    THE TITLE OF

    THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,

    THE ONLY BEING EMPOWERED BOTH WITH 

    ALL GOD’S THINGS AND ALL HUMAN THINGS,

    GODMAN! 

    GAVE HIM, JESUS CHRIST, ALL AUTHORITIES AND POWERS….. 

    You: Was Jesus a spirit being in heaven when John wrote this?  Yes – according to scripture, because flesh cannot enter, see, or inherit God’s kingdom.

    WRONG Mike! FLESH AND BLOOD  CANNOT ENTER OR INHERIT GOD’S KINGDOM!

    BUT JESUS CHRIST POSSESSES 

    THE UNIQUE GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH!

    SATAN’S DREAM!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #873420
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    I know from the letter to the Colossians that the Son of God IS BEFORE ALL THINGS …. THIS MEANS ETERNITY ….. AND THIS IS ENOUGH FOR ME.

    The phrase “before all things” doesn’t mean “eternity”.  Not in Colossians, and not ever.

    #873421
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You; Your version confirms that Jesus is a possession of his God – 

    JESUS Mike,  IS

    both ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE FATHER AND DISTINCT!

    You: as are we all. 

    WRONG Mike!

    WE ARE ALL IN JESUS CHRIST!

    NOT IN GOD THE FATHER

    THE FACT THAT GOD ESTABLISHED

    THE GOD AND FATHER OF BOTH SPIRITS AND FLESH BEINGS IN JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN! 

    JESUS IS THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES, THE FIRST ONE 

    LUCIFER THE BEGINNING!

    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 17And he is before all, and by him all things consist……

    19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell; 

    20And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

    You: NET © The Lord created 1  me as the beginning 2  of his works, 3  before his deeds of long ago.

    ME:The Lord created 1  me as the beginning…

    Mike Jesus WAS NOT CREATED IN THE ABOVE AS SUCH!

    JESUS AS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT WAS EMBODIED, AS ETERNAL LIFE,  IN

    THE HEART OF LUCIFER, THE ACTUAL BEGINNING, 

    THE FIRST-EVER CREATURE OF LIGHT/WISDOM!

    THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT! THE FEMALE ASPECT OF GOD!  

    LUCIFER WAS CREATED 

    NOT JESUS! Mr. Mike!

    JESUS IS THE FIRSTBORN OF LUCIFER!

    IN THE BEGINNING (LUCIFER) WAS “THE WORD”……

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #873422
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    That is Hulk Hogan and his offspring.  As the offspring of a human being, she is equally human.  She likely even has many qualities of the one who begot her.  But being Hogan’s offspring doesn’t mean she is automatically as strong as him, and can pick up grown men and throw them across the room.  So you need to drop the idea that Jesus MUST be absolutely everything his own Father is.  It’s nonsense.

    True. It is a ridiculous idea to think that Jesus is God because he was begotten by God. You can say he is divine or shares attributes of his Father. But he is not equal to the Father.

    “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    #873423
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mike

    I know from the letter to the Colossians that the Son of God IS BEFORE ALL THINGS …. THIS MEANS ETERNITY ….. AND THIS IS ENOUGH FOR ME. I BELIEVE.

    It means he is before the cosmos and all creation.

    It doesn’t mean that he was before or at the same time as God.

    It means that he was with God before all things.

    The words Father and Son have a clue for you Berean.

    #873424
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Well done, Gene.

    1 John 5 American Standard Version
    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    4 For whosoever is begotten of God overcometh the world…

    18 We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.

    Oh my… it turns out that those of us who accept Jesus as the christ (anointed one) of God are just as much begotten of God as Jesus is!

    So Kathi, am I every bit a YHVH as YHVH the Father now?

    Berean, am I omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent now?

    Good point. However, the other point here is he is begotten not created.

    #873429
    Lightenup
    Participant

    No Mike you are not.

    #873433
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike says

    If a living thing is born, isn’t it also a new creation that didn’t exist before it was born? Can you think of an exception?

    All five of my children were born about nine months AFTER they first existed.

    It is not birth that causes an offspring to exist, it’s conception. Mike has been through this Biology lesson many times now and should know better.

    #873434
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Two different Fathers:

    1. the Father that has an only begotten literal son.
    2. the father that has no literal son, only non-literal sons.

    I believe the Son is the only begotten literal son of God. I have been saying that for 28+ years. Jesus is begotten, not created. A created son would not be a literal son.

    It seems like Berean, Danny, Proclaimer, and I believe that here.

    #873436
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer, Mike,

    SINCE Christ IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, IT IS TO SAY ALL CREATION, IT IS THAT HIMSELF IS NOT A CREATURE, HE IS A BEGOTTEN BEING, THE REFLECTION OF THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AND THE EVEN FOOTPRINT OF HIS PERSON, HE IS EQUAL TO THE FATHER.

    SINCE Christ IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, IT IS TO SAY ALL CREATION, IT IS THAT HIMSELF IS NOT A CREATURE, HE IS A BEGOTTEN BEING, THE REFLECTION OF THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AND THE EVEN FOOTPRINT OF HIS PERSON, HE IS EQUAL TO THE FATHER.
    THERE IS NOTHING LOWER THAN THE FATHER, IF IT HAD A BEGINNING, WHEN THE FATHER HAD NO BEGINNING, HE ALWAYS EXISTED …..

     

    THERE IS NOTHING LOWER THAN THE FATHER, IF IT HAD A BEGINNING, WHEN THE FATHER HAD NO BEGINNING, HE ALWAYS EXISTED …..

    #873437
    Berean
    Participant

    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  

    Not only is Jesus—God—responsible for creating all things, He is also the reason all things continue to exist. AMEN!

    #873439
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If you believe that Jesus is the God spoken of in the Bible, then you must be wilfully blind.

    All things were made by God and through him, (logos, Son of God, Jesus Christ).

    Jesus is not the creator. God is.

    And Jesus who some claim to be God is actually the Son of God.

    Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

    #873446
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    If you believe that Jesus is the God spoken of in the Bible, then you must be wilfully blind.

    No Proclaimer, I BELEIVE THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS HIS BEGOTTEN AND BELOVED SON.

    WHAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE SON HAS ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF HIS FATHER. AND THEREFORE HE HAS IN HIS DIVINITY THE OMNIPOTENCE, THE OMNIPRESENCE, AND THE OMNISCIENCE OF HIS FATHER.

    God bless

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