John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,581 through 22,600 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #871967
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @dannyd

    Hi Adam,

    You: It’s quite interesting to see that a non-trinitarians can say Amen to a Trinitarian’s post.

    Me: I’m not a Trinitarian.
    I haven’t made up my mind yet. I’m still learning.

    All I’m sure of and what I believe is that Yahweh is the Most High God.
    And Jesus Christ is His beloved Son.

    Danny. You have declared like Peter who Jesus is. The Father has revealed this.

    13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

    14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

    15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

    16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

    17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

    Notice how Peter didn’t say that Jesus is God. Notice how many today say he is God. Notice how Jesus commended Peter for his confession and made it the foundation for his Church. Also notice how the foundation for the Roman Catholic Church is the Trinity. The conclusion is inescapable.

    The true Church is the Body of Christ and believes who Jesus really is. The Roman Catholic Church and her daughters are therefore fake.

    “Come out of her MY PEOPLE” is the message.

    #871979
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……you say Jesus is a Spirit,  but Jesus said clearly he was not a Spirit.  “Far a spirit has not flesh and bone as you see I have’. , that was said “after”  his resurrection. Scripture says his soul would not see corruption. So when did this transfer, between flesh to spirit take place?
    You say,  Jesus said I existed before Abraham,  scripture says before Abraham existed,  “I am”. A completely different word in the text.
    You say the word Angel means a messenger, while I do agree with that,  but there are scriptures , that I produced that say God did not subject the world to come unto the Angels , which would negate Jesus from being in it if he were an angel of any kind. right? Heb 2:5

    Jesus called himself a “SON OF MAN”. around ‘eighty times”  in or scriptures, even saying, “when the son of man comes, will he find faith on the earthly > So it seems from scriptures it a son of “Man”  or a Son of Mankind , thats going to return , not a spirit being of any kind .
    So please show us where Jesus is transformed into a Spirit being, I would like to see that,  I am not questioning the fact that the Spirit of God was “IN” him, I know it was and is,  questing the fact that he is a Spirit being of any kind.

    You said God has put all things under Jesus,  that’s true ,but God has put all things under the foot of “all” mankind.   Need proof , Heb 2:6-9

    peace and love to you and yours ………..gene

    #871980
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    Hi Proclaimer,

    I still have a hard time to understand the begotten aspect of Jesus.
    We both believe that Jesus shares the exact same nature as His Father.
    Because He is His only begotten Son.
    Well then how can we consider Him to be a lesser god?
    Do you have a child, Proclaimer?
    If so, then can you honestly say that your child is a lesser human being?
    Isn’t that the same thing we do with Jesus?
    Do you understand my point?

    #871981
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny…….it’s not because he is the only begotten son,  it’s because the Spirit of God the Father “dwells” “IN” Him.  Because a person has the Spirit of God “in” him , does not make him a God. Jesus while on this earth had all seven Spirits of God in him, but said he could do “NOTHING” OF HIMSELF.  YOU OR ANYONE CAN HAVE, those Spirits ( cognisities) in you but still not be able to do any miracles, by themselves.   It’s one thing to have the Spirits (cognitions) it’s quite another to have the power to exercise them. God who is Spirit has to give a person the “POWER” to do Miracles,  remember when Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem until they receiver “POWER” FROM ON HIGH.  After they were filled with the Holy Spirit they went out and “GOD” THE FATHER “,   Confirmed their words,  (how), by Miracles he was doing through them, Just as he did “in” Jesus, no difference.

    “One God in all and through all”,  including Jesus.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #871983
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny…..Believe Jesus,  he said he is the root and “offspring” of David.  Jesus never said he was alive ” sentinel ”  Being , before Abraham.  There are a lot of teachings about a “PREEXISTING”  Jesus out there, like when he said he was sent from above, that is true God who is in heaven above did send him out into the world to preach the Gospel of the kingdom of Gods.  That took place after he was Baptized and received the Holy Spirit,  then he was sent , first into the wilderness to be tested, them out into the world to preach the good new of the kingdom of God on this earth. They use the word from above as meaning he was in heaven when he was sent, just another lie, fostered by false teachers.
    jesus also said he was from above, but he also said that the apostles were from above also. I can get the scripture for you if you like.  But you never here any of them tell you that do you.
    Danny one of the biggest lie of Satan, is to try to make people believe Jesus is not “exactly like we are, the reason behind that lie is to make you think you cannot become “EXACTLY” the Same as Jesus is.  It’s a lie that breakers you faith in the one and only true God. This lie started by Satan and his ministers right off the bat,  when the Church first started,  it was to make Jesus appear different the we are, a complete Satanic deception, that has infected the Church over the last 2000 years.  Don’t buy into it Danny.

    Be a brother of Jesus , and Worship God the Father the  “ONLY” TRUE God, the same God that JESUS  worshiped and still does.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #871987
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    My suggestion to you is to learn Greek. If you were to understand the word “dia” and how to translate it correctly with a word in the accusative Greek case or the genitive Greek case, you would not be continually trying to tell us that “dia” means “for the sake of” or “because of” or “on account of.” Dia only means that when followed by a word in the accusative case. When followed by a word written in the genitive case, it is translated as “through, throughout, by the instrumentality of.”

    Gene, you claim that dia means for the sake of when the verse says that all things were made through Jesus (Him) here:

    Col 1:16

    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    That phrase “through Him” is di (dia) with Him being in the “genitive” case. Screen Shot 2021-07-11 at 7.00.52 PM

    See the letters under “Him” written as PPro-GM3S? That “G” stands for the genitive case and therefore causes the di (dia) to be translated as “through” or even “by the instrumentality of”, not “for the sake of” as you claim.

    I hope you can understand this and stop your misuse of the word dia which you seem to base your theology on.

    Blessings, LU

    #871988
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:

    Mike……you say Jesus is a Spirit,  but Jesus said clearly he was not a Spirit.  “Far a spirit has not flesh and bone as you see I have’. , that was said “after”  his resurrection.

    Gene, WITH EVERY RESPECT, YOU, A CARNAL MINDED PERSON,

    WILL NEVER SEE THE TRUTH REGARDING

    THE SPIRITUAL TASK OF GOD ON EARTH IN

    JESUS CHRIST:

    GODMAN!

    Read scripture:

    Now whilst they were speaking these things,

    Jesus stood in the midst of them,

    ME: Gene if today somebody familiar with you DEAD, appears to you, you definitely would be in the presence of a GENUINE spirit being.

    Likewise, Jesus’ disciples were also sure that they saw a spirit BEING since Jesus was DEAD, AND THEY ASLO WERE TERRORIZED! CARRY ON READING:

    and saith to them: Peace be to you; it is I, fear not.

     37But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit.

    IN THE ABOVE IN THE WORD” SUPPOSED” ASSERTED THAT JESUS DEFINITELY FROM THE DEAD, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER FOR THE GLORY OF GOD,

    WAS NOT A NORMAL SPIRIT BEING FROM THE DEAD!

    THE REASON THAT LUCIFER REBELLED, AS HE FELT THAT HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE THE DIRECT CONTENDER TO JESUS, ORIGINALLY BOTH THE MORNING STAR, THE FIRST SON OF GOD! MALE and FEMALE, ANDROGENOUS.

    THUS A UNIQUE DIVINE GLORIFIED SPIRIT THE SON OF GOD, FOR THE FIRST TIME

    GODMAN!

    SO JESUS SIMPLY DEMONSTRATED IMMEDIATELY HIS GLORIFICATION!

     38And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

     39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as you see me to have.

    OK Gene, A NORMAL SPIRIT BEING HAS NO FLESH AND BONES, BUT

    JESUS A UNIQUE GLORIFIED DIVINE SPIRIT HAS THE ONLY SUPERIOR QUALITY STATE OF BEING IN ONE INSTANT

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH  AS HE SEES FIT IN

    ONE UNIQUE GLORIFIED BODY!

    JESUS, “THE WORD”, A SPIRIT MADE FLESH FOR THE SECOND TIME ON EARTH,

    WAS MADE FLESH

    AND POSSESSED IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME AND THIS TIME  FOR ETERNITY

    A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY

    THE NEW JERUSALEM!

    AND JESUS USES THIS UNIQUE STATE AS HE FEELS FIT!

    NOW Gene, TO SOME SPIRITUAL TASKS ACCOMPLISHED BY JESUS ON EARTH WHILE HE WAS ACCORDING TO YOU, ADAM, AND JODY

    A MERE MAN!

     

    Matthew 17:2And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. 

    IN THE ABOVE Gene YOU HAVE A CLEAR DESCRIPTION OF WHAT JESUS’ BODY,

    “THE WORD” A SPIRIT, MADE FLESH

    THE SON OF MAN

    WAS TRANSFORMED IN, 

    Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
    STRONGS NT 3339: μεταμορφόω

    μεταμορφόω, μεταμόρφω: passive, present μεταμορφοῦμαι; 1 aorist μετεμορφώθη;

    to change into another form 

    (cf. μετά, III. 2), to transfigure, transform: μετεμορφώθη, of Christ, 

    his appearance was changed (A. V. he was transfigured), i. e.

    was resplendent with a divine brightness, Matthew 17:2; 

    TELL ME Gene,

    ACCORDING TO YOU WHAT  WAS THE STATE OF  JESUS

    CHANGED INTO ANOTHER FORM AND IN

    A DIVINE BRIGHTNESS:

    Definition of divine
    (Entry 1 of 3)
    1 religion: of, relating to or proceeding directly from God.

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    Luke 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, hearing these things, were filled with anger. 

    Gene, do me favour PLEASE, JUST TELL ME HOW MANY WERE THEY HEARING JESUS IN THE SYNAGOGUE, IN YOUR LOGICAL OPINION! CARRY ON READING IN THE MEANTIME:

    29And they rose up and thrust him out of the city;

    AGAIN Gene, THEY THRUST JESUS SO WELL THAT THEY BROUGHT HIM OUT OF THE CITY, NO?

    and they brought him to the brow of the hill, whereon their city was built, that they might

    cast him down headlong. 

    OK Gene, THAT WAS THE INTENTION OF THESE DEVILS IN HUMAN FLESH AS JEWS!

    NOW READ WHAT DID OCCUR!

    30But he passing through the midst of them, went his way.

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT, THAT’S HOW JESUS HANDLED THESE BUNCH OF DEVILS IN FLESH!

    Explain Gene; WHAT DID HAPPEN TO JESUS’BODY TOTALLY ENTRAPPED STILL  SIMPLY 

    pass through the midst of them,

    and went his way, DESPITE

    THEY WERE MANY, HELD HIM SO WELL, BUT AT THE PRECISE MOMENT THAT THEY WERE TO CAST HIM DOWN HEADLONG,

    JESUS WITHIN HIMSELF SIMPLY SAID NO NOT YET,

    IT IS MY LIFE AND NO ONE WILL TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME, BUT I WILL LAY IT DOWN MYSELF WHEN IT PLEASES ME!

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    Luke 13:31 The same day, there came some of the Pharisees, saying to him: Depart, and get thee hence, for Herod hath a mind to kill thee. 

    32And he said to them: Go and tell that fox,

    Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures today and tomorrow,

    and the third day

    I am consummated. 

    Gene, THE SPIRITUAL TASK OF GOD WAS NOT ONLY FOR JESUS TO DIE IN THE FLESH, AND SAVE HUMANITY, BUT ALSO THAT THROUGH HIS WHOLE

    SPIRITUAL LIFE

    EMPOWERED BY GOD THE FATHER IN HIM FROM CONCEPTION IN THE HOLY GHOST, 

    DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE WAS A HUMAN BEING, HE SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY TO THE EXTENT THAT AS SOON AS THEY KILLED HIM HE IMMEDIATELY BECAME ALIVE IN HIS SPIRITUAL BODY ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST. CONFIRMED IN

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God,

    being put to death indeed in the flesh,

    but enlivened in the spirit,

    TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU Gene, :

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK,

    IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE TO ALL OF HIS WORK!

    THUS ONCE JESUS RESTORED BACK HIS ORIGINAL SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY  FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, IT WAS MORE THAN HIS PLEASURE TO DIE AS HE KNEW THAT HIS DEATH WOULD BE THE LIFE NOT ACTUALLY FOR HIM AS SUCH,

    BUT FOR THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

    HIS OWN KINGDOM,

    THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

    THE FACT THAT  HE PRE-EXISTED  AND WAS

    THE TRUTH

    JESUS CHRIST 

    GOD’S EMBODIMENT BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. Well clear in

    Ephesians 1:3Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us

    WITH SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS in heavenly places, in
    Christ.

    (Jesus Christ pre-existed even before the world was asserted in the next verse)

    4As he chose us

    (ALL EMBODIED) IN HIM

    before the foundation of the world,

    that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity.

    5Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through

    Jesus Christ unto HIMSELF: according to the purpose of his will:

    6Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us

    (ALL EMBODIED)

    IN HIS BELOVED SON.

    Well asserted and clear in
    1 Peter 3:18 ABOVE!

    YOU: So please show us where Jesus is transformed into a Spirit being,

    I would like to see that,

    ME: BUT YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT Gene, for God’ sake unless you

    BE BORN AGAIN IN THE SPIRIT! Nevertheless, read

    the last bit of Luke 13:33 WHICH IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO

    THE SPIRITUALIZATION OF JESUS’FLESH BODY! BY WHICH TASK HUMANITY ACQUIRED ALSO THE SPIRITUALIZATION OF THEIR FLESH BODY,  EVEN WHILE ON THIS EARTH OBVIOUS BY JESUS’ GRACE THROUGH FAITH. READ:

    33Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following because

    it cannot be that a prophet perishes, out of Jerusalem. 

    Gene, PLEASE, I KNOW IT IS MORE THAN DIFFICULT FOR YOU SINCE YOU ARE MORE CARNALLY MINDED  IN YOU REASONING, AND COMPLETELY IGNORE

    THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF JESUS,

    “THE WORD” SPIRIT MADE FLESH.

    WHICH WAS THE MOST VITAL FOR THE HUMAN RACE IN SATANIC MORTAL FLESH!

    BUT STILL, REFLECT ON THE ABOVE VERSE!

    JESUS SAID THAT

    it cannot be that a prophet perishes,

    out of Jerusalem. 

    NOW JESUS DIED OUT OF JERUSALEM!

    SO WHAT ACTUALLY DID JESUS REVEAL???

    NOW “A PROPHET” IS A REFERENCE TO JESUS, SIMPLY AS ALL PROPHETS DIED PRECISELY IN

    JERUSALEM!

    CONFIRMED BY JESUS IN THE FOLLOWING VERSE:

    34 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent to thee, how often would I have gathered thy children as the bird doth her brood under her wings, and thou wouldest not? 

    NOW “JERUSALEM”  IS A REFERENCE TO THE HUMAN FLESH BODY!

    ESTABLISHED ON EVE’S SIN, THE FACT THAT JESUS REFERRED TO IT AS

    THE FEMALE  IN HIS WORDS;

    thy children as the bird doth her brood under her wings,

    WHICH IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO LUCIFER,/SATAN THE FEMALE ASPECT OF THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN RACE OF THIS WORLD, ESTABLISHED ON EVE’S SIN!

    WHERE GOD BECAME THE MALE ASPECT OF IT IN JESUS’SPIRIT,

    THE FACT THAT JESUS HIMSELF IS

    THE SON OF MAN AND HIS APOSTLES WERE ALL MEN!

    THIS IS ALSO PINPOINTED OUT BY PAUL IN

    1Timothy2:11Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed; then Eve. 14And Adam was not seduced, but the woman being seduced was in the transgression.

    NOW JESUS IS PRECISELY

    THE NEW FLESH BODY BUT

    SPIRITUAL!  GOD’S

    THE NEW JERUSALEM, THE BRIDE!

    Declared by John in

    John 3:29 He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom: …..

    YOU: You say the word Angel means a messenger, while I do agree with that,  but there are scriptures , that I produced that say God did not subject the world to come unto the Angels ,

    ME: Hebrews 2:5 For God hath not subjected unto angels the world to come, whereof we speak.

    6But one in a certain place hath testified, saying: What is man, that thou art mindful of him: or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    which would negate Jesus from being in it

    if he were an angel of any kind. right?

    NO Gene, AGAIN YOU ARE COMPLETELY BLIND,

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT AT THE VERY END THERE, WON’T BE ANY ANGELS AS SUCH, BUT ALL HUMANS IN SPIRITUAL FLESH!

    THE ANGELS WILL E EMBODIED AS HUMANS! WELL CLEAR IN

    1 Cornithians 6:3 Know you not that we shall judge angels ?

    how much more things of this world ?

    Gene, AT ONE STAGE IN THE BEGINNING JESUS AND SATAN! WERE BOTH THE SAME 

    ANGEL PRECISELY ONE SPIRIT HIDDEN AND ONE PHYSICAL AS AN ANGEL.

    LUCIFER, THE LIGHT/JESUS BEARER HIDDEN IN LUCIFER’S HEART! Well mentioned in

    Galatians 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected;

    but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

    YOU: Scripture says his soul would not see corruption.

    ME: WRONG Gene, READ:

    Psalm 16:10 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;

    OK THE ABOVE IS A REFERENCE TO DAVID’S SOUL! BUT SINCE

    “THE WORD” JESUS’SPIRIT WAS IN DAVID’S SOUL/HEART,

    THE MAN AFTER GOD’S OWN HEART,

    IT IS ALSO A REFERENCE TO JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT!

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD REV.13:8

    nor wilt then give thy holy one to see corruption.

    THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO JESUS’BODY WHO NEVER SAW

    CORRUPTION!

    YOU: So when did this transfer, between flesh to spirit take place?

    OF COURSE, I EXPECT THAT QUESTION FROM YOU, Gene, KNOWING YOUR CARNAL REASONING, READ:

    John 13:31-32 

    AND YOU SHOULD BE AWARE THAT JESUS’FLESH BECAME SPIRIT

    ON THE CROSS GENE!

    ALSO, THAT’S ONLY BECAUSE YOU IGNORE SCRIPTURES THAT CLEARLY DECLARES THAT 

    JESUS IS THE SOURCE BY WHOM GOD CREATED ALL CREATURES! 

    Colossians 1:16 For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him. 

    17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

    “THE WORD” JESUS IS ENGRAFTED IN YOUR HEART ONE SUBSTANCE, EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    James 1:21  Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive

    the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    YOU: Jesus called himself a “SON OF MAN”. around ‘eighty times”  in or scriptures, even saying, “when the son of man comes, will he find faith on the earthly > So it seems from scriptures it a son of “Man”  or a Son of Mankind , thats going to return , not a spirit being of any kind .

    Gene, YOUR CARNAL REASONING, WHICH IS NOT OF GOD BUT OF THIS WORLD IS OUTRAGEOUS! YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT THE TITLE 

    SON OF MAN MEANS! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    IF JESUS IS GLORIFIED AND WNT TO HEAVEN AS 

    THE SON OF MAN

    WOULD YOU EXPECT HIM TO COME AGAIN AS

    SON OF GOD? THOUGH HE IS?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

    #871991
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene, was “The Word of the King” in ancient Abyssinia a person or not?

    Great question. Did he answer it?

    #871992
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    I still have a hard time to understand the begotten aspect of Jesus.
    We both believe that Jesus shares the exact same nature as His Father.
    Because He is His only begotten Son.
    Well then how can we consider Him to be a lesser god?
    Do you have a child, Proclaimer?
    If so, then can you honestly say that your child is a lesser human being?
    Isn’t that the same thing we do with Jesus?
    Do you understand my point?

    Great questions Danny and yes I understand your point.

    I do not consider Jesus as a lesser god. Yes technically speaking he is not as great as the Father and in a certain sense he is ‘theos’, so you could say that. However, if this was the intended point of the New Testament writers and God who inspired them, then you would see language like, ‘the lesser god Jesus Christ…’.

    Or “You are the Son, a lesser god than the Father” – Peter.

    Or “The god was born in Bethelem”.

    Etc.

    But you never see that.

    Likewise, I remember reading a scripture that described an earthquake as yahweh. It was meant in the sense that it was a great or greatest earthquake. But I would never call an earthquake Yahweh in the sense that that we just got an 8.1 yahweh on the Richter Scale.

    I hope you see my point too.

    The Word was theos means the Word was divine.

    I don’t believe the intended purpose is to go around saying Jesus is a lesser god. Rather, that he came from God. That he is the Son of God. That he is OF God and looks like this invisible Most High God. That he has divine nature the same nature that God has.

    Usually when we say ‘a god’, it often means a false god like an idol or even Satan who is a father too. The Father of Lies.

    #871993
    gadam123
    Participant

    The Word was theos means the Word was divine.

    I don’t believe the intended purpose is to go around saying Jesus is a lesser god. Rather, that he came from God. That he is the Son of God. That he is OF God and looks like this invisible Most High God. That he has divine nature the same nature that God has.

    Usually when we say ‘a god’, it often means a false god like an idol or even Satan who is a father too. The Father of Lies.

    This is the problem with the NT and Christianity. It revolves round and round the mulberry bush without coming out clearly that Jesus is God or man. I can see this on all threads of this Forum. You want to ‘kill the snake and also not want to break the stick’ an old saying in India.

    The NT writers were all Hellenistic polytheist believing Christians. What can we expect from these writers than a mystifying Jesus the supposed Messiah as divine being who preexisting before his human existence.

     

    #871996
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    This is the problem with the NT and Christianity. It revolves round and round the mulberry bush without coming out clearly that Jesus is God or man. I can see this on all threads of this Forum. You want to ‘kill the snake and also not want to break the stick’ an old saying in India.

    Its real simple gadam. People read a book written in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and frame it in their language and culture.

    It is not the message that is confusing but people’s understanding. That said, I believe God rewards truth seekers with understanding while leaving those who do not love truth in the dark. Then those in darkness impose that darkness on the light that they cannot see.

    When you see the light it is amazing to watch many stumbling around in the darkness. But then I am reminded that I was once an Athiest who stumbled from one obstacle to another.

    #871997
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The NT writers were all Hellenistic polytheist believing Christians. What can we expect from these writers than a mystifying Jesus the supposed Messiah as divine being who preexisting before his human existence.

    You lose credibility every time you make an ignorant statement like that.

    #871998
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Adam why do you post in topics in the “Believer’s Place” if you do not believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? I’m not saying you shouldn’t post but that is what the skeptics place is for, right?

    Admin, what are your thoughts?

    #872000
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    You: It’s quite interesting to see that a non-trinitarians can say Amen to a Trinitarian’s post.

    Me: I’m not a Trinitarian.
    I haven’t made up my mind yet. I’m still learning.

    All I’m sure of and what I believe is that Yahweh is the Most High God.
    And Jesus Christ is His beloved Son.

    Hi Danny, it is good to know that you are not full pledged Trinitarian so far. In the Hebrew Bible ‘son of God’ never meant a literal divine being as imagined by the NT writers. Israel was called the first born son of God as per Ex 4:22 and King David’s son called ‘son of God’ as per 2 Sam 7:14 but they never meant as literal sons of God as misinterpreted by the Christianity.

    #872002
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Adam why do you post in topics in the “Believer’s Place” if you do not believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? I’m not saying you shouldn’t post but that is what the skeptics place is for, right?

    Hi Sis Kathi (hope you don’t mistake me), I also believe quite a lot of stuff as a Christian but I don’t want to insist them on others. Yes you can call me a Skeptic as I had already been labelled once on this Forum earlier. I can call every one here a Skeptic as they too negate others views and comment on the scriptures.

    I am only investigating the great claims of the NT writers who had claimed to have interpreted the Hebrew Bible on Jesus the supposed Messiah but I find lot of holes in their interpretations when compared to the Hebrew Bible.

    OK I will restrict my posts to the Skeptics threads as advised by you.

    Thanks and peace to you……Adam

    #872006
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Adam,

    You said: I also believe quite a lot of stuff as a Christian…

    The “Believer’s” section is for those who believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. Everybody here believes that except you and therefore everyone else here can post in the “Believer’s” section from what I understand. You however, don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah, nor do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus. Am I misunderstanding you?

    If you indeed believe those things then you can post here in the believer’s section. You seem to deny those things though. I would love to know what Christian beliefs you say that you agree with.

    #872014
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Danny, it is good to know that you are not full pledged Trinitarian so far. In the Hebrew Bible ‘son of God’ never meant a literal divine being as imagined by the NT writers. Israel was called the first born son of God as per Ex 4:22 and King David’s son called ‘son of God’ as per 2 Sam 7:14 but they never meant as literal sons of God as misinterpreted by the Christianity.

    Except of course that in every day life, a son usually inherits the nature of his father or parents. Biology teaches you that.

    And at a human level and in the Jewish culture, this is but a model of something higher. For example, water is like spirit. Eden is like Heaven. And so it is that an earthly son is representing something in the higher realm, the Son of God.

    But you are stuck with the carnal and cannot imagine the spiritual. But the natural is there to teach you of the spiritual.

    You are in preschool and looking at a university text book and saying “hey, this stuff is not in my children’s book”.

    Might be time to grow up or at least think critically about the Old Testament and its purpose. It teaches us about a Holy God and a sinful race. It teaches us about a nation that God chose. Do you really believe that is the be all and end all? No, the messiah is the answer to a Holy God having perfect relationship with sinful man. God showed us the problem in the Old Testament and the solution in the new. Now we are patiently waiting the return of the messiah as the reigning king.

    #872016
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Hi Adam why do you post in topics in the “Believer’s Place” if you do not believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? I’m not saying you shouldn’t post but that is what the skeptics place is for, right?
    Admin, what are your thoughts?

    I do not have a problem with gadam posting here because he usually sticks to the topic, doesn’t flood the forums, and doesn’t steer every topic into ‘there is no God’. For such is the reason why the Skeptics Forum was created. Remember @Stu, he did those things and it was necessary to restrict him to topics dedicated for Skeptics.

    Since this forum changed platforms, it doesn’t have the feature to restrict any member to any forum and so far that has not been needed.

    #872024
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike or Proclaimer……you ask me the question,  “do you believe the kings spokesman was was actually the kings own word,  my answer  is,  absolutely not,   No matter what the king said,  he was called that,  because he told the people what the king said  to tell them.   The kings word went to the servant,  and the servant told the people,  exact the same as any prophet of God did,  and that  includes  “Jesus”  .

    Heb 1;1….. God who at sundry times and diverse manners “SPAKE” in times past unto our fathers by the prophets, (2), has in these last days “SPOKEN” unto us by a Son.

    please show how “God spoke ” any differently, through the prophets, then he Spoke “through” the man Jesus?  A Son.  
    That is your first challenge, is to show how was there a difference in how God  “spoke” through the other prophets,  making Jesus himself “God’s ” own word “himself and the rest not?”. , and if we assume he was indeed Gods own words, then we should also assume all the other ‘prophets were also’, right?

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #872025
    gadam123
    Participant

    I do not have a problem with gadam posting here because he usually sticks to the topic, doesn’t flood the forums, and doesn’t steer every topic into ‘there is no God’. For such is the reason why the Skeptics Forum was created. Remember @Stu, he did those things and it was necessary to restrict him to topics dedicated for Skeptics.

    Thank you so much for such understanding on me. I will try to restrict my self as advised by you and Kathi.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,581 through 22,600 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account