John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,561 through 22,580 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #871924
    gadam123
    Participant

    Here is God’s plan through the messiah. It is a process, not an instant fix.

    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    I agree that the above statements are based on the NT and is a Christian interpretation on Jesus as Messiah. But these logics are not supported in the Hebrew Bible on the Messiah stating that all (men) have died in Adam and will rise in Jesus the supposed Messiah. Human beings are created as mortals irrespective of whether they have sinned or not. The concept of original sin and Vicarious Atonement are purely the Christian creation and not based the Hebrew religion. Resurrection and after life are rarely mentioned in the Tanakh forget about Messiah’s involvement in that process.

    Jesus ruling on behalf of God is another interpretation of NT writers stating that he is now ruling spiritually and may come back for the second time to rule as King of the Jews is another strange idea for a Messiah which is not supported in the Hebrew Bible.

    #871925
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gadam

     

    Jesus ruling on behalf of God is another interpretation of NT writers stating that he is now ruling spiritually and may come back for the second time to rule as King of the Jews is another strange idea for a Messiah which is not supported in the Hebrew Bible. 

    Me

    Jesus will not be THE KING OF THE JEWS but OF THE SAINTS OF ALL NATIONS

    👇

    DANIEL 7

    These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which will come out of the earth.
    [18] But the saints of the Most High will take the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.
    ……

    21] I saw, and the same horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them;
    [22] Until the Ancient of days come, and judgment be rendered to the saints of the Most High; and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

    …..

    And he will speak great words against the Most High, and will wear out the saints of the Most High, and will consider changing times and laws: and they will be delivered into his hand until a time and times and the division of time.
    [26] But judgment will sit, and they will take away its dominion, to consume it and destroy it to the end.
    [27] And the kingdom and the rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers shall serve and obey him.

    #871937
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.” Jesus answered, “I who speak to you am He.”

    People had expectations with the coming of the messiah.

    And yes, not all things are written in the Old Testament. But let’s look at what is there. We can agree it talks about this messiah.

    But is it not logical to assume that when the messiah has come, he would help enlighten people just as the woman suggested to Jesus?

    This is what’s happening and it’s a process.

    God has a plan. Trust his plan. But many are impatient because they are small minded.

    Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

    Those who are patient and await the return of the messiah will not be disappointed. But that day will come like a thief in the night to those who are not watching. Many people do not care because they don’t have the patience, but would rather get some glory from the world now. They sell their souls for rewards now. The matters of eternity are far from their hearts. But as it happens, the time will come.

    #871938
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The messiah according to some is a king who restores the kingdom of David.

    But that is not a savior or Christ, that is a king.

    Jesus is the king. But he is also the saviour and messiah.

    What do you think the law was about when a lamb was sacrificed for the sins of the people.

    That was only temporary. Are people going to sacrifice a lamb without blemish for all eternity to cover all sins past, present, and future?

    Or is God efficient and make one sacrifice to cover sin for all time?

    The latter according to the gospel.

    This is good news.

    But some give the messiah no room for this great gift of salvation to the Jew first and then the Gentiles.

    Their version of Christ is very small because they reject the true messiah and God’s great plan of redemption to the Jew, Gentile, and creation. They are really only interested in an earthly kingdom and a man like King David.

    God is not like a man with earthly expectations.

    He is the Father of all.

    #871941
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Proclaimer’s last post is right,  Jesus was God the fathers sacrifice for the Penalty of eternal death for our sin.  He is the sacrificial lamb of God, that God offered,  why,  because God requires a payment for sin. He couldn’t just forgive us without that payment being made,  and seeing none of us sinner could make that payment and still live,  because it was a eternal death sentence,  He offered up his own son as our payment ,  ” we were brought with a price”,  The death of Jesus was that price tag that had to be paid or we would “ALL PARISH”. because all have sinned.

    Adam have you let those  ignorant Jew’s persuade you differently?  They  rejected and killed Jesus,  and will you now listen to them?. They are not the experts on the Hebrew texts  as they claim to be. They to this very day reject Jesus and by that they also God the Father who sent him,  are you now also rejecting Jesus as the  true Messiah too?  How  Sad.  Think about what your doing Adam.

    peace and love to you and yours Adam……..gene

    #871942
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all… NO one has produced “any” scripture showing “ANY” activity of Jesus Pryor to his birth on this earth.  Not even one scripture. 

    Peace and love to you all and yours…….gene

    #871945
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: So how was the Word WITH God?

    Was the Word created through the Word?

    “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”

    Whenever we see the phrase “all things” or the word “everything” in scripture, we must run it through the 15:27 test, which is…

    1 Cor 15:27

    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    Surely everyone can understand the concept. Scripture clearly does say that God put everything under Jesus – but to take that 100% literally would mean that God placed even Himself under His holy servant Jesus, right?  And we know that’s not the case, right?  So in this case, the word “everything” EXCEPTS God Himself.

    Another example…

    Acts 4:24

     When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 

    But “Sovereign Lord” is one of the things in heaven, right?  And if we took the word “everything” 100% literally, it would mean that He made Himself, right?  So we run it through the 15:27 test in our minds… “now when it says ‘everything‘, it is clear that this does not include Sovereign Lord Himself, who is clearly EXCEPTED from the ‘everything’ in heaven that Sovereign Lord created.”

    So now let’s do yours…

    John 1:3

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Running it through the 15:27 test, we have, “when it says ‘all things‘, it is clear that this does not include the Word himself – who clearly wasn’t made through himself.”  You see?  The Word is EXCEPTED from the phrase “all things” in this case.  And it goes without saying that God Himself is also excepted – even though it says “all things” were made by the Word – and God is a thing.

    If that doesn’t help, then just refer to scripture…

    Proverbs 8:22YHWH created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

    Rev 3:14… These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God

    Col 1:15… Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

    Oh, and you can include all of the scriptures that say YHWH made “everything” in heaven and earth too – because although YHWH Himself would be excepted in those verses, Jesus would not be.  So whether you prefer created, begotten, brought forth, the fact that Jesus’ origin is from ancient times (Micah 5:2), or even just the fact that Jesus is God’s SON – the fact remains that Jesus is one of the “everything” in heaven and earth that God made.

    #871946
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: I find this is complete deviation from Hebrew concept of Messiah who was meant to be human being and not a god or spirit being…

    In what way, SPECIFICALLY, is it a “deviation”?  The messiah was indeed a human.  But like I’ve told you before (and it fell on deaf ears), God can create human children of Abraham from stones – which would mean that these HUMANS preexisted as ROCKS.  Understand yet?  Being a human doesn’t mean you didn’t already exist as something other than human.  God could today cause Michael the Archangel to be born of a human woman in Detroit, if He chose to.  And that would mean this HUMAN child once preexisted as an ANGEL.

    Besides, it’s clear that even from ancient times, this wasn’t going to be any old ordinary human…

    Isaiah 7:14

    Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

    What ordinary human has ever been born of a virgin?  So your claim that the Jews were always expecting just a normal, everyday human as their messiah is flawed – because they had always been expecting something out of the ordinary.

    #871947
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    You: It’s quite interesting to see that a non-trinitarians can say Amen to a Trinitarian’s post.

    Me: I’m not a Trinitarian.
    I haven’t made up my mind yet. I’m still learning.

    All I’m sure of and what I believe is that Yahweh is the Most High God.
    And Jesus Christ is His beloved Son.

    #871948
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike…….Even if we agree with you interpretation , about the word “ginomai ”…

    No, no, no.  There is no “even if”, Gene.  The word means to come into existence, and the word is right there in John 8:58.  Jesus said, “Before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I existed”.

    Gene:  …sure Jesus existed before Abraham,  in the plan and will of God…

    Gene, think it out…

    1.  Jesus spoke about Abraham.

    2.  The Jews said, “You aren’t even 50 years old, so how could you know Abraham – who died a thousand years ago?”

    3.  Then Jesus responded, “What do you mean I’m not even 50 years old?  To tell you the truth, before Abraham was even a glimmer in his Daddy’s eye, I was already alive!”

    Of course I’m paraphrasing very liberally, but that is the gist of the discussion that culminates with 8:58.  Do you understand?  The Jews accused Jesus of being less than 50 years old, right?  But Jesus didn’t agree with them, did he? Instead he told them that he was older than Abraham.

    Now you’re free to PRETEND that Jesus was secretly talking in riddles about how he “existed” in the plans of God before Abraham dwelt on earth – but you know in your heart of hearts that Jesus was clearly saying that he – as a living entity – had been in existence before Abraham was even born.  You fight what you know in your heart of hearts because you have a personal DESIRE for Jesus to have been exactly like you are today.  You think it somehow gives you the “power” you need to overcome all the things that Jesus overcame, because “he was exactly like me in every single way!”  Maybe it’s time to stop pretending, Gene.  Maybe it’s time to acknowledge that Jesus was clearly talking about how old he was as compared to Abraham.

    Gene:  there you have the truth Mike , now the ball is in your court, even if you use “Ginomai” it doesn’t change a single thing.

    Again, it’s not a case of “even if I use ginomai”, Gene.  The word “ginomai” is right there in the text for all to see.  And it’s not hard to search the definition of the word if you wanted to.

    Gene:  Next you maintain that , Jesus is a ANGELIC being, an Archangel right?  Well then according to scripture he will not be in the kingdom of God, that will come on this earth.  Need poof?

     Heb 2:5….For unto the Angels has he ” NOT”, put in subjection the world to come of whereof we speak.

    I’m not “maintaining” anything of my own accord, Gene.  The word in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures ALWAYS and ONLY means “messenger”.  It is English translators who choose to use the word “angel” when the MESSENGER in question is thought to be a spirit entity. And since Jesus is definitely a spirit entity again (flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God), and since Jesus is still delivering messages from his God (Rev 1:1), Jesus is, by very definition, an angel of God.

    Btw, Heb 2:5 doesn’t say anything about the “kingdom of God”.  And if you read it in context, starting with verse 2, you’ll get a better understanding of what the author is saying.

     

     

    #871949
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  The celestials angels are under His direction. (Rev.19)

    Michael the Archangel also has angels under his direction.  Satan also has angels under his direction.  Having other angels under your direction is not an indication that you are not also an angel.

    It’s simple:  Angel = spirit messenger of God.   Jesus is a spirit messenger of God.  Any questions?

    #871952
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  GOD AS A SPIRIT INITIATED CREATION AFTER HE ESTABLISHED A UNIQUE CARRIER SPECIFICALLY FOR HIMSELF, AS BEING A SPIRIT, THOUGH HE EXISTS, CANNOT ACTUALLY LIVE WITHOUT A CARRIER, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT GOD, WHO OCCUPIES ETERNALLY THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE, LACKS MOVEMENT WITHOUT A CARRIER. ON THE OTHER HAND, THE MORE CREATURES HE CREATES, THE MORE HE LIVES AND MOVES, AND EVERY NEW CREATURE FOR GOD IS  BOTH A NEW LIFE AND A NEW MOVEMENT.

    You make it sound as if God is a virus, who needs to infect carriers to transmit his disease.  Fortunately, none of what you wrote above has any basis in scripture whatsoever.  God has a body of His own just as His first creation, Jesus, has his own body.

    Carmel: NOW, THIS CARRIER HAD TO BE EQUAL TO GOD IN EVERY SENSE,

    PRECISELY HIS SON!

    If that is the case, God failed… because Jesus is NOT equal to his and our God in every sense.  He tells us himself that his God is stronger than him, and knows more than he does.

    Jesus’ own words falsify your theory.

    #871953
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Jesus was referring  , “to his “PRESENT”, EXISTENCE,  Was more “IMPORTANT’  then Abraham to them is or was.

    Keep saying it, and I’ll just keep correcting you.

    Jesus did NOT say, “Before Abraham I am”.  Jesus DID say, “Before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I existed.”

    #871954
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  It is true, as a man Jesus cannot do anything of himself, the Father works in him ….
    And in the beginning Jesus worked for the creation of angels and worlds according to the will of the Father and by the DIVINE Power inherited from the Father (JOHN1: 1-3)

    Everything you said above means that Jesus is lesser than his God, who does the works through Jesus, and who gives Jesus the power to do what he does.  And that, of course, is 100% scriptural, since we know that God is the one who created, but did that through Jesus.  We also know that God is the one who did the healing and miracles when Jesus was on earth… through Jesus:

    Acts 2:22…  Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    God is the one who did the works.  God did those works through His holy servant Jesus.  Are you able to understand those scriptural words?  And if you can, then now consider how the KJV translates that same verse…

    Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.

    Can you see it now?  Can you see that when the KJV uses the word “by”, they really mean “through” – or “by means of”?  This is a very good verse from which you can learn that lesson, because even though they use the word “by”, you can still clearly see that it was GOD who actually did the miracles, signs and wonders, right?

    In Egypt, Moses didn’t do signs and wonders.  God did signs and wonders through/by Moses.  In the past, the prophets didn’t come up with words of God to speak to the fathers.  God spoke to the fathers through/by the prophets. In 30 AD, Jesus didn’t do miracles on earth.  God did miracles on earth through/by Jesus.  And in the beginning, Jesus didn’t create the heavens and the earth.  God created the heavens and the earth through/by Jesus.

    There is only one Creator.  That Creator is YHWH, the Most High God of all the many other gods.  And that one Creator made the heavens and the earth through/by Jesus.  Not “Jesus made the heavens and the earth”, but “GOD made the heavens and the earth through/by Jesus”.

    That’s why you’ll see scriptures that say all things were created through/by Jesus… but you’ll never see a scripture that says, “Jesus created…” – unless you included the verse where Jesus fashioned a whip out of cords.

    #871955
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Jesus Said us WHEN He WAS on earth that he came DOWN from HEAVEN

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.(John 6:38)

    WHY YOU cannot beleive what JESUS Say about what he Say WHEN He Say That he came DOWN from HEAVEN ???

    That is an excellent question.  Gene, why do you call him “Lord, Lord”, but not believe what he says?

     

    #871956
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: As another example.

    ‘adam is the Hebrew word for ‘man’.

    So Eve was adam, but she is not Adam.

    In other words, she is part of mankind, but she is not Adam the first man.

    Adam is an identity. adam is a nature. Either can claim the latter. Adam can claim both. He is Adam (The Man) and he is adam (mankind).

    Now you only need to take it that one step farther…  If Eve is adam – as you rightly assert – then it is equally true that Eve is AN adam.  If Rin Tin Tin is dog, then it’s equally true that Rin Tin Tin is A dog.  If Mr. Ed is horse, then it is equally true that Mr. Ed is A horse.

    You with me so far?  Can you refute a single word I’ve said so far?  Assuming not, then…

    If Gabriel is angel, then it is equally true that Gabriel is AN angel.  And if Jesus is god, then it is equally true that Jesus is A god.

    Eve is not THE Adam, but she is adam – which undeniably means she is AN adam.

    Jesus is not THE God, but he is god – which undeniably means he is A god.

    And that is what the scriptures literally teach:  Jesus is A god who was with THE God in the beginning.  Jesus was existing in the form of A god but then emptied himself and took on the form of A man.  The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because, by saying he was the Son of God, he was making himself out to be A god – when they “knew” he was just A man like them.

    #871957
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  A word , any word,  is not a person,  it is the EXPRESSIONS  of a person…

    Gene, in ancient Abyssinia, the king would not have a direct audience with his subjects.  Instead the king had a spokesman, who would speak the decrees of the king to the people.  That spokesman was called “Kal Hatze” – which means “The Word of the King”.

    Gene, was “The Word of the King” in ancient Abyssinia a person or not?

    #871958
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  To all… NO one has produced “any” scripture showing “ANY” activity of Jesus Pryor to his birth on this earth.  Not even one scripture. 

    That’s not true, but even if it were, what would it mean?  We didn’t know anything about Gabriel’s existence prior to his visit to Daniel, right?  Does that mean that Gabriel either didn’t exist, or did absolutely nothing until he went to speak to Daniel – just because we aren’t given a play-by-play accounting of his entire lifetime?

     

    #871960
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    To all… NO one has produced “any” scripture showing “ANY” activity of Jesus Pryor to his birth on this earth.  Not even one scripture. 

    Me

    ONE

    John 1 :3

    All things were made by him(Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.   

    HIM IS A PERSON, AND THIS IS JESUS CHRIST

     

    Hebrews 1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom ALSO he made the worlds;

    #871962
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If Jesus Christ is the Messenger of YHWH, then there is plenty.

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