John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,601 through 22,620 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872026
    gadam123
    Participant

    But you are stuck with the carnal and cannot imagine the spiritual. But the natural is there to teach you of the spiritual.

    You are in preschool and looking at a university text book and saying “hey, this stuff is not in my children’s book”.

    Might be time to grow up or at least think critically about the Old Testament and its purpose. It teaches us about a Holy God and a sinful race. It teaches us about a nation that God chose. Do you really believe that is the be all and end all? No, the messiah is the answer to a Holy God having perfect relationship with sinful man. God showed us the problem in the Old Testament and the solution in the new. Now we are patiently waiting the return of the messiah as the reigning king.

    So you think that I am struck at carnal? Please check my post on son of God to Danny. I am not the one struck at carnal nature. In fact Christianity is the one which is struck at Carnal as defined by you. They are the ones who claim that Jesus was some how shared God’s divine nature literally including the so called Arius.

    A son of God in Hebrew Bible is always meant a non-materialistic or non-hypostatic relation with God. It talks about the relationship in terms of closeness to God than literal sense as interpreted by the NT writers and Christianity.

    God showed us the problem in the Old Testament and the solution in the new.

    This is completely baseless as Torah is eternal and abiding as per the Hebrew Bible. It’s purely the Christian idea that the Hebrew Bible has become obsolete or problematic as claimed by you and the New Testament has taken over the Hebrew Bible. Please read and re-read Psalm 119 and you will understand the goodness of Torah. I request you to remove such negative bias towards the Hebrew Bible as it is the very source of Christian New Testament.

    Here is a funny comments on what you quoted above;

    The problem that such a view perpetuates is that somehow the Old Testament was God’s quasi-rough draft. He wrote it before He had His coffee and was grumpy and mean, and then He went to counselling and came back as nice-guy Jesus to make up for how awful He was in the past. Jesus’ claim is precisely the opposite—His claim is that He IS the God of the Old Testament in His personhood—Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one God in three persons. Without the Old Testament you do not get the right Jesus. There are many versions of Jesus out there but you’ve got to get the right one to be Christian.

    Of course they are not mine.

    The following will be the Messianic age;

    Isaiah 2:

    2 In days to come
    the mountain of the Lord’s house
    shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
    and shall be raised above the hills;
    all the nations shall stream to it.
    3     Many peoples shall come and say,
    “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    to the house of the God of Jacob;
    that he may teach us his ways
    and that we may walk in his paths.”
    For out of Zion shall go forth instruction,
    and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    4 He shall judge between the nations,
    and shall arbitrate for many peoples;
    they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
    and their spears into pruning hooks;
    nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
    neither shall they learn war any more.

    Zech 8:

    20 Thus says the Lord of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, the inhabitants of many cities; 21 the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, “Come, let us go to entreat the favor of the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going.” 22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of the Lord. 23 Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”

    The above are no where nearer to Christian understanding on the Messiah as they had mystified him.

    #872027
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: God who is Spirit has to give a person the “POWER” to do Miracles,  

    Matthew 17:16 Lord, have pity on my son, for he is a lunatic, and suffereth much: for he falleth often into the fire, and often into the water. 

    16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 

    17Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you?

    bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour.

    19Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? 

    20Jesus said to them:

    Because of your unbelief.

    For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed,

    you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove;

    and nothing shall be impossible to you. 

    YOU Gene, AS SOON AS YOU HAVE FAITH AS A GRAIN OF A MUSTARD SEED

    YOU COULD PERFORM MIRACLES. 

    EVEN GREATER THAN JESUS DID!

    DO YOU KNOW WHY?

    READ:

    John14:Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    YOU GENE DON’T BELIEVE JESUS’ OWN WORDS ABOVE WHICH CONFIRMS JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE!

    THAT’S ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS WHY YOU WILL NEVER PERFORM MIRACLES.

    NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE EXISTENCE EVER, AND  FOR ETERNITY HAVE THE UNIQUE PREVELAGE THAT

    GOD THE FATHER IS IN HIM AND HE IS IN THE FATHER.

     12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake.

    THE WORK JESUS PERFORMED CAME DIRECTLY FROM THE FATHER AS 

    THE FATHER AND JESUS ARE

    ONE SUBSTANCE AND UNIQUE.

    SON OF MAN! HEBREWS 1:3

    GOD THE FATHER’S SPIRIT

    EVEN WHEN JESUS LEFT THE FATHER AND CAME ON EARTH, AS SPIRITS 

    THEY NEVER SEPARATED,

    WELL CLEAR IN

    John3:12 If I have spoken to you earthly things, and you believe not; how will you believe,

    if I shall speak to you heavenly things???????

    13And NO MAN hath ascended into heaven,

    but he that descended FROM heaven,

    YOU GENE DON’T BELIEVE JESUS’ OWN WORDS ABOVE WHICH CONFIRMS JESUS PRE-EXISTENCE! THAT’S  ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS, WHY YOU WILL NEVER PERFORM MIRACLES.

    the Son of man WHO IS in heaven. 

    OK Gene, THE SON OF MAN JESUS CHRIST, GODMAN, WAS IN HEAVEN EVEN BEFOE THE WORLD WAS! GOD’S EMBODIMENT!

    John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

    ONLY PHYSICALLY AS PERSONS, THEY WERE DISTINCT: ATTENTION Gene,

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK, IT IS 

    HIS SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE TO ALL OF HIS WORK! CARRY ON READING Gene:

    Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in ME,

    BELEIVE N JESUS NOT IN GOD ONLY, AS ONLY IN JESUS GOD THE FATHER ACCEPTS HUMANS’ DEMANDS! AGAIN WELL CLEAR IN

    John15:6 I am the vine; you the branches:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him,

    the same beareth much fruit:

    for without ME you can do nothing. 

    6If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. 

    7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you,

    ATTENTION Gene:

    you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. 

    Carry on reading Gene, and accept the TRUTH!

    Cont. John 14…..the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

    ATTENTION AGAIN:

    13Because I go to the Father:

    THE ONLY HUMAN BEING WHO IS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER AND ALSO

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE FATHER FOR ETERNITY!

    ATTENTION AGAIN:

    and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in MY NAME,(WHERE IS THE FATHER Gene???)

    that will I do:

    that the Father may be

    glorified in the Son. (NOT IN HIMSELF)

    JESUS WILL DO, Gene, HE IS GLORIFIED!

    JOHN 17:10And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    GET THAT INTO YOUR CARNAL SPIRITUALLY DEAD  MIND WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    JESUS IS RULING THE UNIVERSE! NOT THE FATHER!

    now read what you FALSELY PREACH:

    YOU: YOU OR ANYONE CAN HAVE, those Spirits ( cognisities) in you but still not be able to do any miracles, by themselves.  

    It’s one thing to have the Spirits (cognitions) it’s quite another to have the power to exercise them.

    God who is Spirit has to give a person the “POWER” to do Miracles,

    THAT GOD YOU MENTIONED ABOVE GENE IS JESUS! 

    ON EARTH ONLY JESUS IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND GOD THE FATHER

    ONLY THROUGH HIM WORKS AND MAKES MIRACLES!

    Acts3:6 …..In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise, and walk.

     YOU: remember when Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem until they receiver “POWER” FROM ON HIGH.

    ME: THAT POWER Gene belongs to JESUS!

    HE DIED FOR IT ON EARTH AND HE GOVERNS EARTH ALL BY HIMSELF AS 

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD PHYSICALLY MANIFESTED ON EARTH!

     After they were filled with the Holy Spirit they went out and

    “GOD” THE FATHER “,  

    ME: LIES.LIES, and LIES!

    John16:5 But I told you not these things from the beginning because I was with you. And now I go to him that sent me, and none of you asketh me: Whither goest thou? 6But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go:

    for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go,

    I will send him to you.

    JESUS IS RULING NOT THE FATHER!

    8And when HE is come, HE will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.

    9Of sin: because they believed not in me.

    10And of justice: because I go to the Father, and you shall see me no longer.

    JUSTIFIED AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND RULER OVER ALL.

    11And of judgment: because the prince of this world is already judged.

    OFFICIALLY BY/ON JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS!

    12I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

    For he shall not speak of himself; (OF GOD THE FATHER! THE FATHER DID NOT DIE ON EARTH NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER ON EARTH; ONLY IN JESUS)

    but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you. 

    14He shall glorify me;

    NOT GOD THE FATHER

    because he shall receive of MINE and shall show it to you. 

    15All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.

    Therefore I said, that he shall receive of MINE, and show it to you.

    through miracles

    YOU:Confirmed their words,  (how), by Miracles he was doing through them, Just as he did “in” Jesus, no difference.

    LIES, LIES, and LIES!

    YOU:“One God in all and through all”,  including Jesus.

    NO Gene!

    RIGHT NOW THAT GOD IS

    JESUS CHRIST

    not the god you falsely preach

    Cont. John 14:14If you shall ask me anything in

    MY NAME,

    Gene for God’s sake:

    WHERE IS THE FATHER! I TELL YOU:

    HE IS IN HIS LONGEST REST!

    Gene, have faith IN JESUS as a grain of a mustard seed,

    WHO IS IN YOU THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, ASK JESUS

    ANYTHING AND JESUS HEARS YOU AS HE CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    that I will do.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #872043
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    So you think that I am struck at carnal?

    Correct. You say it evolved, but what if the plan of God is to take men from carnal to spiritual. Then you would see a basic understanding with numerous ways it could all play out to revelation where we see it play out and understand its fulfilment. And why is it hard to believe in the grandiose plan from a God that created the cosmos. If you don’t like it, then fine.

    And what if men believed based on their openness to revelation or lack of it.

    You don’t seem to understand this. You argue that the NT is wrong because it is not at the same level of understanding God’s instruction and revelation that he first gave.

    But is it not logical that the plan of God is a progression, that is both wonderful and terrifying. That there is a season for the law and condemnation of sin and a season for the solution to that? If God just sprung salvation on man without understanding sin first, then men wouldn’t appreciate what he is doing for us and wouldn’t really know what repentance is.

    Certainly both testaments show that God cares and we only need to trust him and the plan he has for mankind and be faithful to the revelation we have received.

    But if the heart of a man is wayward, then he will put up every stumbling block imaginable, rather than see the light and be responsible about it. He will use every objection possible.

    #872046
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    I have been gone for a bit, I have been extremely busy and still am. This is the only thread I get emails of posts on and every now and then I get a moment to read some of them.

    I just don’t understand at all how people believe that Jesus is the word of God as in he is the word of God, that is just totally nonsensical. Jesus is called the word of God because he speaks the word of God and not only that but the word of God spoken by the prophets was made true in the man of flesh Jesus. Also prophesy concerning him even included that he would speak the word of God. God’s word from the beginning was eternal life, when Jesus was raised from the dead the word was made true in the flesh, giving hope to his brethren of their own resurrection into eternal life.

    Gene gave a great passage,

    Hebrews 1:1 , who at sundry times and in divers manners in time past unto the fathers spoke by the prophets in these last days, hath spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through (by reason of) whom also made the worlds; 3 Who being  brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    The above is absolute proof that the Son of God didn’t pre-exist as God’s word, as he didn’t speak the word until later, before it was the prophets who spoke the word.

    WHO is  WHO?

    “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person”

    John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

    WHO “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high”?

    Luke 22: 69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    God had a plan from the beginning, a plan where Jesus would be appointed heir of all things. When God made all things, ALONE/BY HIMSELF as we are directly told by Isaiah, He most certainly would be making all things through the heir, by reason of the heir and for the heir. That is just simple common sense, and we are heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus, a firstborn of many brethren!!! The resurrected Jesus represents a new Adam (human being) a last Adam, a Son of Man who is a Son of God according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, where Jesus rose having received the Spirit by PROMISE. We too are promised to receive that Spirit where we shall walk in all His ways. 

    Romans 1:1-4 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 

    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (New Birth) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Abraham rejoiced to see his day, he saw it and was glad. Before Abram was (even existed), from the beginning this man was to bring the resurrection and the light of life, and be the heir of all things.  Jesus said in John 8, “I AM the light of the world”.

    Jesus also said, “but from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. You’d think that would have been the perfect time for Jesus to declare that he as the word of God made them male and female.

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 

    So let’s get this straight,

    In the beginning God created man in His own image and He created them with the promise of eternal life and those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. 

    Jesus received the Spirit of God without measure and was then sent out into the world to speak God’s word and do God’s work. John was a witness when the Spirit descended upon Jesus that this was the Son of God.

    At one point Jesus cried and said, “and he that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.” We are later told that when he went to the cross to purge our sins, he was the brightness of God’s glory and the express image of His person. 

    He was then resurrected unto eternal life and is the Son of David who sits at God’s right hand being God’s Son according to the Spirit which he had received by promise when he rose from the dead. 

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Jesus was and always will be a Son of Man. He is a Son of God ACCORDING TO the Spirit.

    #872047
    gadam123
    Participant

    Correct. You say it evolved, but what if the plan of God is to take men from carnal to spiritual. Then you would see a basic understanding with numerous ways it could all play out to revelation where we see it play out and understand its fulfillment. And why is it hard to believe in the grandios plan fron a God that created the cosmos.

    And what if men believed based on their openness to revelation or lack of it.

    You don’t seem to understand this. You argue that the NT is wrong because it is not at the same level of understanding God’s instruction and revelation that he first gave.

    Hi proclaimer, you blame me for not being spiritual? I also can blame the very writers of the NT who had twisted the Hebrew scriptures to suit their dogma. After all they were all human beings not any gods. In fact many here lack openness and are sticking to their age old fundamentalism and not able to visualize the truth beyond the NT.

    You seem to avoid my full post and chose only  bits and parts to comment.

    You argue that the NT is wrong because it is not at the same level of understanding God’s instruction and revelation that he first gave.

    Yes you got the point behind my negation of the NT as it had deviated from its original source and made the mess of every thing. Please go through any of your threads here in this Forum you will find confusion every where because of the ambiguity with strange concepts of Messiah who had supposedly involved in God’s creation and become a Savior figure who gives life to the dead which is no where found in the Hebrew Bible.

    Please wake up my friend and come out of those biased beliefs….

    #872050
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I just don’t understand at all how people believe that Jesus is the word of God as in he is the word of God

    That is easy to answer. It comes from the New Testament and some people believe the New Testament.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    and

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems ; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

    #872051
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi proclaimer, you blame me for not being spiritual?

    Blame is a bit strong of a word. I believe we all have the choice to be spiritual or remain carnal.

    For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.… 

    #872052
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes you got the point behind my negation of the NT as it had deviated from its original source and made the mess of every thing.

    Whereas, I see that the mess is in your own mind and some other people’s mind too. Both testaments are in perfect harmony. They are both revelations but the latter is greater. This is also true with regards to science. Today, we know much more than the smartest people did two thousand years ago. We live in the information age.

    But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    You see, many of the Old Testament is shut up or sealed. With these seals being broken as some point. Of course when seals break, prophecy is fulfilled, and a problem is given a solution, then not all men will understand or accept them. And here you are.

    #872053
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    because of the ambiguity with strange concepts of Messiah who had supposedly involved in God’s creation and become a Savior figure who gives life to the dead which is no where found in the Hebrew Bible.

    That sounds like something a spiritually blind person would say.

    Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”

    #872055
    gadam123
    Participant

    That sounds like something a spiritually blind person would say.

    Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”

    Hi Proclaimer, you seem to judge others so fast without knowing their heart. I request you not to color your criticism with scriptural quotations. I don’t think you are preaching Gospel to anyone here as this Forum is meant for debates on doctrinal issues. It is a weak method of defense.

    To seeing Kingdom of God or Messiah you don’t require any special inspiration as imagined by the Christianity.

    #872057
    gadam123
    Participant

    Whereas, I see that the mess is in your own mind and some other people’s mind too. Both testaments are in perfect harmony. They are both revelations but the latter is greater. This is also true with regards to science. Today, we know much more than the smartest people did two thousand years ago. We live in the information age.

    When people are closing their eyes and minds they can’t see the truth. So you think NT greater revelation than OT? This shows how biased are the Christian views.

    The book of Daniel is a non-prophetic book in the Hebrew Bible written in 2nd BCE by a pseudo writer. Nothing is sealed in the book as it is open to its readers. It is just like Masala (favorable stuff) for Christianity as they claim it for Jesus by twisting its content and context.

    #872068
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    When people are closing their eyes and minds they can’t see the truth. So you think NT greater revelation than OT? This shows how biased are the Christian views.

    It’s called progress. Should there be regress then?

    Where in the Old Testament does it say this is the full revelation. Anything after that is fake. And the messiah will be king of Israel and the world will still have all the problems. Where is that all written. Yet that is the measuring stick you use for truth and lies. It’s a fake measuring device gadam.

    One would think that if there was a messiah, then he would save men. Not a country.

    Is God really just interested in resurrecting Israel and doesn’t want to do anything about the state of the world and sin? Does God love mankind? If so, then he would have a plan that would enable men to find God again.

    You reject the more important issues and concentrate on a very limited world view of the Old Testament.

    Where is your faith?

    #872070
    gadam123
    Participant

    One would think that if there was a messiah, then he would save men. Not a country.

    Is God really just interested in resurrecting Israel and doesn’t want to do anything about the state of the world and sin? Does God love mankind? If so, then he would have a plan that would enable men to find God again.

    You reject the more important issues and concentrate on a very limited world view of the Old Testament.

    Sorry brother Hebrew religion was not meant a universal religion. It was for a nation and a people, even Jesus upheld the same. Later texts of Hebrew Bible included all nations but Israel will be the center of attention. Messiah was only meant for a nation and the benefits will be extended to others. Sorry I am not rejecting anything here as I am only investigating the strange ideas invented by the Christianity.

    #872072
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Like the Pharisees, you missed the plan of God.

    Start in Jerusalem, then Israel, then the utmost part of the world.

    And this has happened.

    You missed the boat.

    YHWH is the God of the Jews.

    But he is the God of the cosmos too.

    I think you forget that.

    An eternal God creates the cosmos, and you think that Israel is all that matters to him.

    Lol.

    #872156
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike……you say Jesus is a Spirit,  but Jesus said clearly he was not a Spirit.  “Far a spirit has not flesh and bone as you see I have’. , that was said “after”  his resurrection. Scripture says his soul would not see corruption. So when did this transfer, between flesh to spirit take place?

    Upon his ascension to heaven, Gene.  Jesus was raised from the dead in the same flesh body in which he died.  He dwelled on earth in that same body for another 30 days after his resurrection.  Then he ascended to heaven before the eyes of the disciples.  But we know from scripture that flesh can neither inherit nor even enter the kingdom of God – where we agree Jesus dwells now, right?

    So we know 2 things for sure:

    1. Jesus was NOT a spirit while he was still on earth for 30 more days after his resurrection.
    2. Jesus MUST BE a spirit now – or he couldn’t see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God – which he clearly has done. (John 3:3-5; 1 Cor 15:50)

    That leaves us with only one option:  Jesus’ flesh body was transformed into his current spirit body upon his ascension from earth to heaven.  Paul talks a lot about this transformation in 1 Cor 15, and in Phil 3:20-21, Paul even says…

    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

    Jesus shared our type of “lowly body” for the entire 33 years he dwelled on earth – including 30 days after his resurrection.  But he doesn’t still possess this “lowly body” in heaven, Gene.  He now possesses a “glorious new body” – and it was Paul’s eager hope that he too will exchange his “lowly body” for the “glorious body” Jesus now has in heaven.

     

     

    #872157
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  You say,  Jesus said I existed before Abraham,  scripture says before Abraham existed,  “I am”. A completely different word in the text.

    Gene, how many times do we have to go through the same thing?  I’m going to ask you some simple, point-blank questions.  Please answer them honestly.

    Greek Present Tense

    1. Do you understand that the Greek language is different than the English language?  YES or NO?

    2. Do you understand the underlined part in the above – that some phrases that ENGLISH writers would render in the PAST TENSE are rendered in the GREEK language as present tense?  YES or NO?

    3. Do you understand that Jesus saying “I am” is a HISTORICAL present, and can literally be translated into English as, “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been in a state of continual existence that continues on, even until this very day”?  YES or NO?

    If you have trouble saying “YES” – simply because you don’t want “YES” to be the answer, consider Exhibit B…

    John 14:9 Young’s Literal Translation
    Jesus saith to him, ‘So long time I am with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? 

    Do you see the red phrase “I am”, Gene?  That is also the Greek PRESENT tense.  But as we learned from the above, some phrases that would be translated in English as PAST tense are rendered in Greek as PRESENT tense.  What are these called again, Gene? (Historical presents, right?)  So the actual meaning of the Greek words above are:

    Jesus said to him, ‘So long a time I have been in a continual state of existing among you that continues on until this very day, and you have not known me?

    Of course nobody translates their English Bible that way – but the vast majority of them render that Greek historical present tense as a simple English past tense…

    New International Version

    I have been among you such a long time

    Berean Study Bible
    I have been with you all this time

    King James Bible
    Have I been so long time with you 

    New American Standard Bible
    Have I been with you for so long a time

    NET Bible
    Have I been with you for so long

    And the list goes on and on.  The majority of English Bibles render “I am” in John 14:9 as “I have been” – because they KNOW Jesus was talking about how much PAST time Jesus had already spent with Philip.  It is the exact same with John 8:58, Gene.  The honest way to translate the “I am” in 8:58 is as “I have been” – just like in John 14:9.

    And the only reason the English Bibles keep the present tense “I am” in 8:58 is so they can make the asinine claim that Jesus – by saying the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language – was somehow claiming to be Jehovah.  But how ludicrous is that?  First of all, there is no proof that “YHWH” even means “I am”.  And if we swap out “I am” for “Jehovah” in 8:58, Jesus says, “Before Abraham came into existence, Jehovah“.  What would that even mean? 🤔🙄

    But in their Trinitarian zeal to corrupt the scriptures, they keep it as “I am” in 8:58 – while rightly rendering the same exact phrase as “I have been” in John 14:9.

    And non-preexisters like you get to capitalize on their corruption.  So…

    4.  Gene, do you understand that the phrase in 14:9 is “I am”?  YES or NO?

    5.  Do you agree that the MEANING in 14:9 is “I have been”?  YES or NO?

    6.  Can you therefore agree that the same exact phrase in the same circumstance (talking about things of the PAST) should (or at least COULD) also be rendered as “I have been” in 8:58?

    #872158
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  You say the word Angel means a messenger, while I do agree with that,  but there are scriptures , that I produced that say God did not subject the world to come unto the Angels , which would negate Jesus from being in it if he were an angel of any kind. right? Heb 2:5

    If you agree an angel is a messenger, then use it in Heb 2:5…

    God did not subject the world to come unto the messengers.

    So now, even if Jesus was in heaven as a human being, he is still a messenger of God, right?  So according to your logic, no messenger of God – human or spirit – will have any part in the world to come.

    Is that what you believe?

    #872159
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: Great question. Did he answer it?

    Of course not.

    #872160
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny:  Because He is His only begotten Son.
    Well then how can we consider Him to be a lesser god?

    Proclaimer:  However, if this was the intended point of the New Testament writers and God who inspired them, then you would see language like, ‘the lesser god Jesus Christ…’.

    Or “You are the Son, a lesser god than the Father” – Peter.

    Or “The god was born in Bethelem”.

    Etc.

    But you never see that.

    John 1:1… and the Word was a god.

    John 1:18… No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    Danny, why ask Proclaimer about the greatness of Jesus as compared to his and our God, Jehovah?  Why not just believe what Jesus himself said about it?

    John 14:28… the Father is greater than I.

    Both gods, one of them greater… which means one of them is not as great, ie: lesser.

    That’s why Jehovah alone is called the Almighty, the Most High God, and the God of gods.  You can’t have a Most High God if there are no less high gods.  And since Jesus is clearly not the Most High God, he has no choice but to be one of the many less high gods that Jehovah is the God of.

    #872161
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  It revolves round and round the mulberry bush without coming out clearly that Jesus is God or man.

    The NT is very clear that Jesus was existing in the form of a god, but then emptied himself and was made as a man – born of a virgin via God’s Holy Spirit.  He was a god, then dwelled on earth as a man for 33 years, and is once again a god in heaven, sitting at the right hand of his own God, Jehovah.

    All of this is in the NT.

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