John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,241 through 22,260 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #870418
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: I say Jesus was never a God.

    ME: Scripture Gene,

    Isaiah 45:14 Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine:

    they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles:

    and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.

     

    peace and love in Jesus Christ

             

    #870423
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….First and foremost the name Jesus does not eve appear any where in those scriptures a all.  So you as usual,  force the text,  trying to make it say what in fact it is not saying or even implying.  Thats typical for you, everyone here should know that by now. You quote a text and not only change the wording but the context as well.

    Jesus is not invisible not now or ever has been either,  scripture say no one has seen God at any time,  no scriptures says Jesus was ever invisible not one.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #870427
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: I say Jesus was never a God.

    ME: SCRIPTURE GENE,

    ISAIAH 45:14 THUS SAITH THE LORD: THE LABOUR OF EGYPT, AND THE MERCHANDISE OF ETHIOPIA, AND OF SABAIM, MEN OF STATURE SHALL COME OVER TO THEE, AND SHALL BE THINE:

    THEY SHALL WALK AFTER THEE, THEY SHALL GO BOUND WITH MANACLES:

    and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.
    15Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.

    YOU:

    Carmel…….First and foremost the name Jesus does not eve appear any where in those scriptures a all.  So you as usual,  force the text,  trying to make it say what in fact it is not saying or even implying.  Thats typical for you, everyone here should know that by now. You quote a text and not only change the wording but the context as well.

    Jesus is not invisible not now or ever has been either,  scripture say no one has seen God at any time,  no scriptures says Jesus was ever invisible not one.

    ME: Hi Gene, first and foremost

    THE WORD  “INVISIBLE ” IS NOT IN THAT SCRIPTURE.

    YOU:  Thats typical for you, everyone here should know that by now. You quote a text and not only change the wording but the context as well.

    ME: PRODUCE ONE VERSE FROM ANY OF MY POST WHICH CONFIRMS WHAT YOU SAY,  OR ELSE YOU ARE A

    GENUINE LIAR! 

    ALSO, there’s only 

    ONE SAVIOUR OF ISRAEL:

    JESUS CHRIST.

     

    IN THAT SCRIPTURE GOD THROUGH ISAIAH IS DOING THE TALKING!

    ISAIAH 45:14 THUS SAITH THE LORD:…..only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.
    15Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.

    NOW ACCORDING TO YOU:

    WHO IS THE GOD MENTIONED, BY GOD  THREE TIMES

    IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #870430
    gadam123
    Participant

    Yes brother Gene, the name Jesus not is found  in the Hebrew scriptures but NT writers and Christianity started searching Jewish scriptures to place Jesus in those scriptures so that they can prove that they are right in their arguments. One great example is Justin Martyr. If we read his writings especially his “Dialogue with Trypho” clarifies this argument.

    The ‘Word’ in John  1:1 is the same type of imagination by Christianity. Jesus is no where found in the Hebrew scriptures except we force it. Christianity made Hebrew God a Binity, Trinity and more…

    For more information please read the book “Helping Jesus Fulfill Prophecy” by Robert J. Miller.

    #870432
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    “THE WORD” (The Son of God) who in the beginning was in the form of God, was made flesh, he lived perfect  life among us and made atonement for the whole world by dying on the infamous wood, but he rose again and he intercedes with the Father and he returns very soon in his own glory and the glory of his Father accompanied by the heavenly host ….
    Who will be able to subsist in his presence on the day of his advent?

    He who has innocent hands and a pure heart; He who does not deliver his soul to a lie, and who does not swear to deceive (Psalms 24: 4)

    God bless

    #870436
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless all

     

    #870437
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  The man Jesus, “became”,  a “new” ,  Creation of God,  the First of the human creation of God to go into the family of God, as a “eternal living”,  “human being” “First place in line of many to follow.  I have never seen a scripture that says Jesus  was the first thing God “ever” created. I am not saying one doesn’t exist , but I have never saw it.

    Gene, in Rev 3:14, Jesus calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.  In Proverbs 8, Jesus (wisdom) says “the LORD created me as the first of his works”.  In Col 1, Paul says Jesus was the “firstborn of every creature”.  So it’s not that you haven’t seen these scriptures… it’s that you don’t accept them at face value.  Instead you insert your own understanding into them by switching “first creation” to “new creation”.

    And when you read that the heavens and earth were created by God and through Jesus, you change that in your mind to “new creation” too.  Bottom line, the verses are all right there – you just don’t believe them.

    Gene: The universe was probably the actual first thing God created…

    Scripture says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.  Scripture also says that the sons of God shouted for joy when God created the earth.  That implies that these spirit sons of God (Jesus, Michael, Gabriel, Satan, etc.) were already in existence before God created the physical heavens and earth for man.  And it also aligns well with Prov 8, where Jesus says he was there when God created the earth.

    Gene:  Mike I do like your responses, they do show some good solid reasoning brother.

    Thanks brother. Cheers

    #870438
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam….Again you are absolutely right brother,  all true believers and scholars know that there is no activity of Jesus at all mentioned in the Old Testament no where.  As you said Christianity made our “only” true God,  a binity, trinity,  ect.

    Jesus himself only recognized ‘ONE” true God, saying in prayer,  “this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD” ,  and Jesus Christ who you have sent”.

    And again in scripture,  ” But unto us (true believers) there is but “ONE”  GOD, and one mediator between men and God, “THE MAN” Jesus Christ.

    Blessed are you Adam to truly understand this, its so great to hear your voice again on heaven net. You add great soundness to the word of God our Father,  dear brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #870439
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Mike, did Jesus serve Peter and His apostles?

    Jesus is a fellow servant of God along with his followers.  That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.  But no, God graciously giving us things is not God being our servant.

    Carmel:  I am serving my son right at this MOMENT IN TIME DOING THE ENTIRE FURNITURE OF HIS HOUSE FOR HIM

    You are graciously giving of yourself to help your son.  You are your son’s BENEFACTOR, not his SERVANT.

    Carmel, God is not the servant of His own servant Jesus.  End of story.

    #870440
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    I am moving what Berean said from another thread to here.

    Berean: The Word of God tells us that Jesus is the divine Son of God (John 1: 1), that his origin dates back to the days of eternity (Micah 5)

    ME: The below passage doesn’t even contain the words Jesus, Son of God, or divine. You are giving us your interpretation that “the Word” represents Jesus.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Berean, can you discuss the below chapter and the additional passages I am providing?

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of THE WORD of life;

    2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his WORD is not in us.

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my WORD, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that THE WORD of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified THE WORD of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16 Holding forth THE WORD of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

    Psalms 119:41 VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to THY WORD

    81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in THY WORD.

    Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is THE WORD of this salvation sent.

    Ephes 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard THE WORD of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is THE WORD of God:

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak

    Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away THE WORD out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

    John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 

    John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast THE WORDS of eternal life.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    Eph 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

    Hear THE WORD of YHVH,

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    1 John 1: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street… 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Acts 2: 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 13: 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Berean, it is straightforward biblical fact that in the beginning was THE WORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ETERNAL LIFE, to which is what our Father IS. ALSO from the beginning it was DECLARED that one man would come and execute that WORD, and we see this man as a firstborn of that WORD who is promised to return and give us that WORD.

    Let’s expand on the above Biblical facts, everyone that doeth righteousness is BORN OF GOD and God has promised to put His Spirit in us to where we will walk in all His ways, for the Spirit is all goodness, righteousness and truth. God putting His Spirit in us causing us to walk in all His ways is being BORN OF GOD and by such there is no sin and therefore no death, only eternal life. This is why Jesus told us that one must be born of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. This is why Jesus promised that we would be partakers, drinking of the cup of the One Spirit as he does, for God had promised us from the beginning eternal life. This is why Paul tells us in Romans 8 that we are to be joint heirs with Christ where we inherit God’s Spirit, where those that are led by the Spirit of God are then the Sons of God, where those who have the Spirit bearing witness to their spirit are the children of God. John saw the Spirit descend upon Jesus at the river Jordan and testified therein that he was the Son of God. God likewise also testified Jesus was His Son at the river Jordan at the moment the Spirit came to dwell within him, where Jesus said this was needed for him to fulfill all righteousness. Such according to Isaiah was an anointing and a calling to righteousness, and he who doeth righteousness is BORN of God. This Jesus died but he was raised from the dead where on that day he was BEGOTTEN by God where he received the Spirit according to a PROMISE, that PROMISE is THE WORD of God that was from the beginning, righteousness unto eternal life.

    Luke 1: 68 Blessed is the Lord, the God of Israel, Because He did look upon, And wrought redemption for His people, 69 And did raise an horn of salvation to us, In the house of David His servant, 70 As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets, which have been from the age; 71 Salvation from our enemies, And out of the hand of all hating us, 72 To do kindness with our fathers, And to be mindful of His holy covenant, 73 An oath that He sware to Abraham our father, 74 To give to us, without fear, Out of the hand of our enemies having been delivered, 75 To serve Him, in holiness and righteousness Before Him, all the days of our life.

    Micah 5: 2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth are of old, From the days of antiquity. 3 Therefore he doth give them out till the time She who bringeth forth hath brought forth, And the remnant of his brethren return to the sons of Israel. 4 And he hath stood and delighted in the strength of Jehovah, In the excellency of the name of Jehovah his God, And they have remained, For now he is great unto the ends of earth.

    Berean, I will say it again, it is straightforward biblical fact that in the beginning was THE WORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ETERNAL LIFE, to which is what our heavenly Father YHVH IS. AS WELL, from the beginning it was DECLARED and was also SPOKEN from ancient of days by the prophets that one man, a son of David (both born in Bethlehem), would one day come and execute that WORD, and we see this man as a firstborn of that WORD who is promised to return and give us that WORD.

    #870441
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    It is going to be you along with many others rejecting Jesus when he returns because you think he is God when he is the Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory. When he sits on his father David’s throne according to the flesh to rule the world, sounds like you will be thinking he is the antichrist.

    Isaiah’s prophecies ARE NOT COMPLETED and it is a SON OF MAN, whom has our ONE GOD THE FATHER’S SPIRIT living in him, who will judged the world, as he is the man ordained by our Father YHVH to do so.

    #870442
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike. Jesus was indeed the beginning of a new creation in mankind, but was not even alive during at the time of the creation,  Jesus is a type a pro-type of the new man, who had the fullness God’s Spirit  “in” him , the first human from mankind, the first of mankind to be resurrected from the dead, the first “man” to receive eternal life. We need to look at him as a new type of us, a reborn man, who was given the Spirit of the Living God and by that Spirit was raised from the grave and given eternal life.  Now if he was given eternal life that obviously means he never had it before right?

    The attribute of Wisdom in proverbs is just that, it is one of the Spiritual attributes God always had. That attribute is seen in all the creation that God made, even Satan has it . It is just one of the “seven spirits of God” , that goes out into all the earth.  It is not now or ever was the anointed man Jesus, even though Jesus does have it, but so does most of God creation have it to one degree  or another.

    Mike the biggest problem here is people “force our text”, to say things that are not “specifically”  written , that is where false teachings come from, we shouldn’t  read things into our texts that are no specifically written in them.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

    #870443
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Hebrews 1 is a great companion to John 1. Hebrews 1 solidifies that it was the Son (not a plan) that was in the beginning and he was with God, his Father. As the exact representation of the Father’s eternal nature, the Son is also God according to essence. The Father is the head of the Son as should be obvious. Because he is a son of the same eternal nature, obviously he would not be created. Always being within the Father in essence from eternity (He “possessed me before His works of old” Prov 8:22), he was at one point, begotten/born from within the Father before the works of creation.

    In Heb 1:10+ we see that the Father further identifies his Son as the LORD (YHVH) that lays the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of his hands. Obviously the Son was not alone at the time since Heb 1 already established that the Father created through the Son. We know that the scriptures say that YHVH alone created the world. We also know that the YHVH sends his Son to become the Messiah and therefore YHVH is the Father also.

    I believe that you are clear that there are two different persons who created the world and they are father and son. There was not just one person who created the world, therefore, YHVH Elohim who alone created the world represents two persons who together act as one in the creation of the world. The YHVH Elohim are the Father YHVH, and the Son YHVH. They act as one and therefore you will often see the pronouns and verbs in the singular. That is common speech for two or more persons who act as one.

    For instance:

    Acts 3:4 But Peter, along with John, looked at him intently and said, “Look at us!”
    If you look up the Greek you will see that the verb “looked” is singular although two persons are doing the looking.

    Mark 13:3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

    If you look up the Greek you will also see here that the verb “asked” is singular although there are four people doing the asking.

    And here: Ephesians 5:24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

    There we see that the church which has many members “is subject to”…the church is written as a singular word and uses the singular verb.

    Let it be Mike, find rest in Them who are the YHVH Elohim. The YHVH Elohim alone created the world.

    Be blessed, LU

    #870444
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS
    See COLOSSIANS 1:16

    all things were created by him, and for him:
     

    HIM= THE SON OF GOD

    BY HIM  : DIA AUTOU

    FOR HIM: EIS AUTON

     

    Berean,

    THROUGH HIM :  DIA AUTOU

    Greek Dia

    Notice how the NET translates the word – 209 times as “through”, 87 times as “by”.

    Compare with the KJV – 241 times as “by”, and only 88 times as “through”.

    Notice the #1 definition of the word… “through”.

    This is not a difference in the meaning of the word… it is a difference in how English was spoken then as compared to how it is spoken now.  For example, in Hebrews 1:1 in the KJV, it says “God spoke BY the prophets“, right?  This doesn’t mean that the prophets were the origin of the words… the mind or creative force behind them.  It means that GOD is the one who spoke, and HE did that THROUGH (or “by means of”) the prophets.  But today we don’t express that meaning with the word “by” like they did when the KJV was written.  Today we express that with the word “through”.  That’s why the NET (and all other modern translations) render that word as “through” in the vast majority of the cases… in almost every case where the KJV renders it as “by”.

    Think it out… today we wouldn’t say “The job was applied for BY the internet” – as if the internet applied for a job.  Instead we’d say, “The job was applied for THROUGH the internet“.  The 16th century use of “by” means the exact same thing as the current use of “through”. So if the KJV said, “The job was applied for BY the internet“, it wouldn’t mean that the internet was the mind or the creative force behind the application.  It would mean exactly what “The job was applied for THROUGH the internet” means today.  Understand?  The KJV was saying that all things were created THROUGH Jesus.  It’s just that back then, it was common to use the word “by” to convey the meaning of “through”.

    For example, “Jim’s letter was written BY typewriter” doesn’t mean the typewriter took it upon itself to write a letter.  And, “Jim’s letter was sent BY mail” doesn’t mean some entity known as the mail decided to sent a letter to someone. It means that JIM wrote a letter and JIM sent the letter to someone else.  The typewriter and the mail were just vehicles that JIM used to accomplish JIM’S task.  JIM is both the letter writer and the letter sender.

    Likewise, when the KJV says that God created all things BY Jesus, it means Jesus was the vehicle through which GOD created all things.

    Your argument is weak and pitiful.  You have only a couple of verses (in the KJV) where you take advantage of the difference in word usage between the 1600’s and today.  On the other hand, I have given many scriptures that CLEARLY identify God as the Creator, and Jesus as someone else (ie: NOT the Creator).  There are dozens of scriptures that speak of God creating the world (including from Jesus himself), yet not one single scripture that says Jesus created anything at all – let alone the heavens and the earth.

    The default meaning of the Greek word “dia” is “through” – which is why it is the top definition in NET, and in Strong’s and Thayer’s as listed below…

    Screenshot (100)

    #870445
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: 1 COR.8:7,8

    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him   

    BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS

    This is another great example of how we use different words today to convey the SAME EXACT meaning the KJV was conveying with their words.  Start with the first words… Today we wouldn’t say “TO us there is one God”.  That doesn’t even make sense in current English.  The meaning is that many people considered the many other gods of the world as their God, but AS FOR US (“as far was we’re concerned”), we have only the Father as our God.  That’s why the more recent translations – which don’t use words like “thou”, “thine”, “whence” and “methinks” – translate it as we would speak it today… “yet FOR us there is but one God, the Father”   Look at the all the translations (most of them produced by Trinitarians) that use “FOR us” instead of the KJV’s “TO us”…

    https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

    The KJV isn’t wrong, it’s just that the KJV’s “to us” meant back then the SAME EXACT THING as we mean when we say “for us” today.  Next up, the KJV’s “of whom are all things”.  Today we convey that SAME EXACT THING with the words “FROM whom all things CAME”. (See the link above again.)  Again, the KJV isn’t wrong, it’s just that the KJV’s “of whom” means what today’s “from whom” means.

    But let those scriptural words sink in, Berean.  For us there is HOW MANY gods?  Just ONE, right?  And who is that ONE God for us?  The FATHER, right?  How many? ONE.  Who?  The FATHER.  Say it again and again to yourself until it sinks in.  Is Jesus the Father?  Nope.  Is Jesus identified as someone other than the Father in the very verse you quoted?  Yep.  So ONE God, the Father… and Jesus isn’t Him.   Berean, how many Gods?  ONE, right?  Who is that one?  The Father, right?  Berean, how many Gods?  Who is that God?  How many?  Who?  How many?  Who?

    The third example “by whom” has already been explained in my last post.  The KJV’s “by whom” means the SAME EXACT THING as “through whom” means to us today. (Again, check the translations in the link above.)

    Berean, who did the apostles pray to in Acts 4?  The ONE who created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them?  YEP.  Were they praying to Jesus?  YES or NO?

    It’s so simple, and you are a bright person.  Stop trying to fight it and just let the scriptures teach you.

    Mark 13:19  King James Bible
    For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

    Berean, who did your Lord Jesus say was responsible for the creation?  Why don’t you believe your Lord?  It’s so simple if you let the scriptures teach you, instead of you trying to teach them.  Stop fighting it.  Your Lord told you who created.  He also told us who our God is…

    John 20:17 King James Bible
    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Berean, who does your Lord Jesus say our God is?  Does he say that our God is also his God?  So who is our God then?  Jesus?  Or Jesus’ own God?  Which one did your Lord Jesus clearly tell you?  Berean, who is Jesus’ God?  Who is our God?  Are they one and the same?  What did your Lord Jesus tell you?

    Stop fighting it.  Let the scriptures’ teach you.  Don’t try to teach them.  Cheers

     

    #870446
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  “THE WORD” (The Son of God) who in the beginning was in the form of God

    The form of a god – which Jesus clearly is.  So is Satan, and Michael, and Dagon, and Gabriel, and Asteroth, etc.  But there is only one Most High God OF gods.  Berean, can you tell us who the God of all the other gods is?  Check my last post again.  Who did Jesus say the God of the other gods is. (Hint: Jesus is a god, and there is one who is Jesus’ own God.  Who is that one?  Jesus told you, remember?)

    #870447
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: 1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of THE WORD of life;

    Jodi, which “word” did they touch with their own hands?  Could it be the “word” who rides a white horse in Revelation?

    #870448
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike. Jesus was indeed the beginning of a new creation in mankind…

    Mike the biggest problem here is people “force our text”, to say things that are not “specifically”  written , that is where false teachings come from, we shouldn’t  read things into our texts that are no specifically written in them.

    Gene, is it specifically written that Jesus is a “new” creation?  Scripture says he was the beginning of the creation by God, the first of God’s works, and the firstborn of every creature.  It seems that in this case, you are the one trying to force the text to say things (like “new”) that are not specifically written.  You are the one reading things into the texts that aren’t actually there.

    The last part of your post is very well said.  Apply it to yourself as you’re contemplating adding the word “new” into the text.  Cheers

    #870449
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi, I painstakingly addressed your last post with scriptural truths.  You have responded with a story that has no basis in scriptures.  Eternal nature?  But Jesus says he was the beginning of the creation by God, and that he was created as the first of God’s works… and then rejoiced as he watched God create the earth. God said through Micah (or for Berean, “BY Micah” 😁) that the ruler He would bring forth had his origins in the distant past.  Paul said Jesus was the firstborn of every creature.

    These are scriptures, Kathi.  There isn’t any scripture that speaks of “YHVH the Son”, or Jesus having existed from eternity.  I ask you again…

    Did the author of Hebrews say “he created”, and then identify Jesus as someone other than the “he” to whom he referred?

    Did Jesus say God created the world?

    Did the apostles pray to the Creator, and then clearly identify Jesus as someone other than the one to whom they prayed?

    If Heb 1:10 is the Father telling us that the Son created the heavens and the earth, then it means the Father DIDN’T create the heavens and the earth.  How do you reconcile this?

    Kathi, try to recognize who is speaking scriptural truth here.  I show you scripture that has Jesus himself saying God created, and you respond with, “Well, Jesus knows that they both created.”  That’s not a scriptural answer.  That’s just some crap you pulled out of who knows where.  Show me that Jesus “knew” that they BOTH created.  Show me using scripture. And then show me how you reconcile BOTH of them creating with your claim that Heb 1:10 is the Father talking about Jesus – which would mean that the Father gave SOLE creation credit to the son “YOU (not “we”) laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of YOUR (not “our”) hands…

    #870450
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    @Admin

    This posts on this thread are out of sync with the pages.  Please fix.  Thank you.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,241 through 22,260 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account