John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,261 through 22,280 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #870451
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…….Very, very good brother,  Berean needs to break his faith in false trinitarian teachers  and start to think, with his own mind guided by the Spirit of God.

    Berean, what we are telling you is solid truth brother.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #870452
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    Sorry, but You, Jodi, Mike …are not right about WHO IS “THE WORD”

    Revelation 19:13 say us That the ONE named THE WORD OF GOD IS JESUS CHRIST WHO DIED FOR YOU AND ME

    GOD BLESS

     

    #870453
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..True it doesn’t say that JESUS did not preexist his birth, but plenty texts say he was prophesied to be born as a child to us,  a son has been given us,   Right?  No one text anywhere say a “PREEXISTING ” being has been “morphed” into a human body that i know of at least.
    Also we do have scripture that calls him a “second” Adam.  So if he were a second “Adam” as scripture says , then the assumption would be he indeed had come into his “only existence” as a “type” of Adam, Further reasoning would be Adam was a first of a kind of humanity,  then Jesus being pined to him analytically , as a first of a kind, would also be first of a kind of human right?
    Jesus is analytically tied to humanity, nothing else is he? , Of course to God the Father also. This would be different if there were direct text showing a PREEXISTING Jesus, or any kind of activity of him before his birth on this earth.
    scripture also shows clearly his “ONLY” connection to life was from the Loins of his King David, and as a root of Jesse through the line of Abraham then to Adam.  That is the biblical line given in scriptures. So that pretty much proves he did not preexist them, but was a progeny of them. Remember Jesus himself said it three times and so did Paul, as well as other apostles also. And we have what Moses said , “the LORD shall raise up “from”your brethren a prophet like me”. From where?  from there brethren,  no where does Moses say from somewhere else, would he come, now does he ? So that to me itself,  proves Jesus could not have preexisted his birth on this earth.
    So while it is not specifically written that Jesus did not preexist his birth on this earth, it is certainly implied by many, many scriptures, and so I draw that conclusion from those scriptures and others also..
    So unless someone can show those scriptures do not truly mean what they say, then i will hold on to what those scriptures imply to me.

    Mike i really do appreciate your splendid research brother, between you and Jodi, and hopefully Adam , and others  we can make heaven net, a real place to find  truth, of our scriptures,  by teaching sound scriptures and giving solid understandings to them.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #870454
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Pre-existence of Christ :

    ….the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, Trudy, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

     

    “before Abraham was, I am.”

    GOD BLESS

     

     

     

    #870455
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….I am beginning to believe even if Jesus himself told you, that he himself wasn’t the word, you wouldn’t believe him either.  Your indoctrinated into fallen religious teachings, and are stuck and can’t break free. SAD

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #870456
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……. you are trying to make it sound like Jesus was saying he was “alive” before Abraham was,  you have one problem the word “alive” is not there.
    Don’t you think that if Jesus wanted them to believe he meant “alive” he would specifically have said that?

    Jesus said that Abraham  looked “forward” to see his day  and saw it, and was glad., why would he have to look forward to his day if he were already alive at his time?

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    #870457
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    JESUS KNOWS THAT HIS CHILDREN WHO DO NOT COMPLICATE WITH THINGS KNOW THAT HIS FIRST TITLE AND NAME IS “THE WORD”

    #870458
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Heb 1 says that it was through the Son that the Father created the world. The Father gave the vision, the Son carried out the vision to reality. No wonder the Father gives the Son the credit of bringing the creation into reality. One did not do that without the other.

    Also regarding this, “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God…

    The actual work of creation originated in the Son who laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens with his hands. The Son is the origin of the creation of God not a first creation of the creation of God. This is not hard.

    Also the Son knows everything, John 16:30, and all that was made, originated through his work, thus he is the “origin” of the creation. That is why he can be considered the faithful and true witness of the creation of God.

    Jesus did say that God created…the Father created the world through Him, the Son. The Father and the scriptures tell us this a few times. John 1:3, Col 1:16+, Heb 1.

    Mike, you asked:

    If Heb 1:10 is the Father telling us that the Son created the heavens and the earth, then it means the Father DIDN’T create the heavens and the earth. How do you reconcile this?

    Heb 1:10 is telling us that it is the Son that did the work of creation (the work of his hands it says), it isn’t saying that the Father didn’t give him the vision to do so. The Father is giving the Son the credit of carrying out the Father’s vision in Heb 1:10 at the same time, identifying the Son as YHVH.

    True story…I have recently designed a house, I have a builder that is about to start building it. I did the designing, he is doing the building. We both are taking part of the creation of my house. I am providing the vision and the plans, and he is going to be carrying out the plans. I am not going to take credit for the actual labor of constructing the house. However, I do take credit for designing of it. The actual work of physically making the house will have it’s origin in the builder/contractor, not me, the builder will begin the work of the creation of my house. The actual designing of the house has it’s origin in me. My builder will be able to be a witness to the creation of my house because he is carrying out the work according to the blueprints I gave him. Without my part, my house would not get built. Without his part, my house would not get built.

    #870459
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen

    Very interesting Lu
    May God continue to guide you

    #870460
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Jesus is a fellow servant of God along with his followers.  

    Matthew 20:21Who said to her: What wilt thou? She saith to him: Say that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left,

    in thy kingdom

    Luke 23:42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come

    into thy kingdom.

    Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us

    into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 

    Mike, WHY THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS ALSO ONLY CALLED

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON, why not also called

    THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER, thou definitely is also of the Father. 

    WHY IT IS NOT ALSO THE KINGDOM OF ANY OF 

    JESUS’ FOLLOWERS? or ANY OTHER OF THE ENTIRE KINGDOM OF GOD?

    WHAT IS SO UNIQUE ABOUT JESUS, SO UNIQUE THAT HIS KINGDOM IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD?

     IF JESUS’ KINGDOM IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD, 

    ISN’T JESUS  GOD? 

    Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God?

    Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men,

    I should not be the servant of Christ.

    WHY IT’S IMPORTANT FOR PAUL TO SAY THAT HE SHOULD BE  THE  SERVANT OF CHRIST AS MUCH AS HE PERSUADES GOD?

    WHEN PAUL PERSUADES GOD, HE DOES NOT ALSO SERVE CHRIST AND GOD AS WELL?

    WHEN  PAUL  SERVES CHRIST, HE DOES NOT PERSUADE GOD AND CHRIST AS WELL?

    IF IN ONE INSTANT, WHEN PAUL PERSUADES GOD HE ALSO SERVES CHRIST AND VICE VERSA, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOD AND CHRIST?  

    ISN’T GOD CHRIST AS MUCH AS CHRIST IS GOD?

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    In HIS/GOD’S kingdom 

    AFTER ALL, IF THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD, 

    THE BODY OF GOD IS CHRIST. NO?

    NOW, WHAT IS  THE  HEAD WITHOUT THE  BODY, IT’S NOT JUST A SKULL?

    AND WHAT IS THE BODY WITHOUT THE HEAD, IT’S NOT JUST A TRUNK?

    NO GOD NO JESUS

    NO JESUS NO GOD

    1 John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that,

    when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see HIM as HE IS.

    Mike answer:

    WHO IS  “HIM” and “HE” in the above?

    GOD?

    JESUS CHRIST?  or both

    GOD and JESUS CHRIST?

    TWO IN ONE FLESH

    ONE MORE THING, IN VIEW OF THE ABOVE 

    DO YOU BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT

    GOD IN CHRIST IS YOU and 

    YOU IN CHRIST IS GOD?

    John14:20 In that day you shall know,

    that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 

    WHAT A KIND OF SERVANT JESUS “THE WORD” IS!!!WOW, WOW, and WOW!

    Isaiah 55:For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, (NEITHER MY SERVANT AS YOUR SERVANT)   saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    (AND MY SERVANT ABOVE YOUR SERVANT)

    11So shall MY WORD be,

    which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #870461
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    ME: RETURN TO SANDER!

    Carmel……. you are trying to make it sound like Jesus was saying he was “alive” before Abraham was,  you have one problem the word “alive” is not there.
    Don’t you think that if Jesus wanted them to believe he meant “alive” he would specifically have said that?

    Jesus said that Abraham  looked “forward” to see his day  and saw it, and was glad., why would he have to look forward to his day if he were already alive at his time?

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    YOU REALLY ARE LOST

    BUT FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH,

    DO YOU KNOW THAT A BEING COULD EXIST BUT NOT LIVING AS SUCH?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #870467
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    No one text anywhere say a “PREEXISTING ” being has been “morphed” into a human body that i know of at least.

    Really?

    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    #870469
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……the word of God, “came into existence”,  what was that word, it was the “prophesied”, word of God, given through the prophets,  it came to pass, it was the human being Jesus Christ, get it? , there is no word itself that could ever become flesh, that is impossible for that to happen, because words are Spirit not flesh and blood, like Jesus was .
    God’s word and God are one and the same thing, just as you and your words are. Nothing mysterious or difficult about it, common sense should tell you that.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #870470
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…..God’s “WORD” and GOD , are one and the same PERSON and being. NO ONE IS GOD’S WORD, BUT GOD HIMSELF, never was any nor ever will be either.

    If his “words” abides “in” you then God is “in” you and you are “in” him . God and his words are Spirit,

    “Now if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell “IN”  you, he that raised Jesus Christ  from the grave, shall “ALSO” quicken  your mortal “BODY” , BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELL “IN” YOU”. 

    Just that simple,  we must all be born again by the Spirit of the living God, exactly as Jesus Christ our lord was, if we are to ever have eternal life given us.

    The man Jesus was never God’s word himself, even though he delivered the words God the fathers gave him to tell us. He plainly told us the,  “the words i am telling you are “NOT” my “WORDS” but the words of him that sent me.  Is anyone here able to understand that simple truth that Jesus himself said? There seems to be only just a few that do. Simply amazing to me, that everyone here can’t understand those simple things.

    peace and love to you all and yours…………gene

     

    #870471
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Also we do have scripture that calls him a “second” Adam.  So if he were a second “Adam” as scripture says , then the assumption would be he indeed had come into his “only existence” as a “type” of Adam…

    Read the next verse, Gene…

    1 Corinthians 15:47

    The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven.

    The second Adam is from heaven, as opposed to the first Adam, who is from the dust of the earth.  Jesus also said, “I am the living bread that came down from heaven.” (John 6:51)

    Here’s my challenge to you and Jodi…  Empty your mind and pretend you know nothing about scripture, and are reading these verses for the first time in your lives.  What would you immediately think when reading these words that clearly say Jesus is “from heaven”?

    Gene: scripture also shows clearly his “ONLY” connection to life was from the Loins of his King David…

    Romans 1:3

    concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh

    So not his “ONLY” connection, but a son of David according to the flesh.  Think about that, Gene.  Why on earth would Paul even include the words “according to the flesh” if Jesus’ “ONLY” connection to David was a normal fleshly one?

    Revelation 22:16

    I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.

    Is your son both the root AND the offspring of Gene?  No… just your offspring.  Why would any descendent claim to be the ROOT of their ancestor – implying that they came before their own ancestor?  Could it be that Jesus was only the offspring of David “according to the flesh”, and the root of David in some other form  – meaning he existed before David in one form, and after David in another?

    Gene: …through the line of Abraham…

    John 8:58 NLT

    Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”

    Gene, the verses you and Jodi quote to point out that Jesus came after Abraham, and after David, and after Moses are true – but don’t in any way whatsoever prohibit Jesus from also being BEFORE all of them in a different sense.

    Get it?  Jesus was after David… but only according to his fleshly existence on earth.  He was after David (the offspring), but also before David (the root).  He was after Abraham as a human, but was also in existence before Abraham was even born.

    Micah 5:2

    But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.

    See?  Jesus was to be a FUTURE ruler and prophet that God would send out of Bethlehem – but his origin was already way in the past even from Micah’s time on earth!

    So you and Jodi do a brilliant job of showing all the scriptures that say Jesus WILL come in the future, and WILL be from Jesse and David, and WILL be a FUTURE ruler sent by God – but you completely ignore or twist the DOZENS of other scriptures that clearly say that while Jesus WILL come in the future, he already existed BEFORE the very people who prophesied about him coming in the future.

    Once you guys get past that hurdle, then you’ll be able to take verses like these at face value instead of twisting them to your own desires…

    Philippians 2:5-7

    You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, who though he existed in the form of a god, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.

    It says what it says, Gene.  Jesus was already existing in the form of a god BEFORE he shared in human nature.

    John 17:5

    So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

    It says what it says, Gene.  Jesus already had glory in heaven alongside God before the world was created.

    John 1:14

    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    It says what it says, Gene.  There is only one who ever dwelt on earth with the glory of the only begotten of our heavenly Father.  That one was with God in the beginning, and then became flesh and dwelt among us on earth for a while.

    Of course there are many others, but I hope this at least gets you thinking.  Yes, Jesus came AFTER Abraham, Jesse, David and Micah… but he also existed before any of them were even born.  You only teach half of the story.  It’s time you and Jodi open your eyes to the rest of it.   Cheers

    #870472
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    Proclaimerer……the word of God, “came into existence”,  what was that word, it was the “prophesied”, word of God

    Me

    NOT WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE

     

    YOU

    God’s “WORD” and GOD , are one and the same PERSON and being. NO ONE IS GOD’S WORD, BUT GOD HIMSELF, never was any nor ever will be either.

    Me

    ‘Not written in The Bible

    But IT IS WRITTEN IN REVELATION 19:13

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:

    and his name is called The Word of God. 

    God bless

    #870473
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..there is not a single scripture that “says” Jesus “existed before Abraham ” not one.  Lets just start with that first,  Then we can move on to the “root and offspring” part . Which i believes is saying “root” of the family linage of Jesse, but the direct “offspring ” of David.  So he is both from the root and is the offspring . He could not even be a offspring of David, if he preexisted his birth on this earth.

    please present any scripture that states directly that Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth , show any single scripture that “specifically ” says that.  Or foe that matter any activity of hm before his birth on this earth.

    This is not to even mention , if what you people believe is true, then what proof would that be to any one, how  a human can become perfect and holy?

    Your not taking into consideration the very purpose of a “real” human being become perfected and reborn by the spirit into the family of God.  Answer this question to what purpose would it prove to mankind, if God took another God or what ever, then  killed him and then “morphed” him into a human body and then passed him off as a real human being?
    No purpose at all, it would just be a sham, i really do not believe God the Father is into shamming people.

    Jesus’s true linage is well documented in our scriptures,  all the way back to Abraham, not a single scripture say any where that Jesus was from the seed of God , but it does say he came from the loins of  King David, in the flesh, and became a son of God later, when he was anointed ,  God the father  even said “this day” i have begotten you”, not sometime in the past. We all have to be begotten by God , in order to become sons of God ourselves.  Just like our brother, The man Jesus born of the flesh, and was born again of the Spirit later , “exactly” the same way we must be.  Therefore he is the first born of “MANY” BROTHERS, as a son of God, from the human race.

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    #870474
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Heb 1 says that it was through the Son that the Father created the world. 

    Technically, Heb 1:1-2 says that, through his Son, God created the world. We know it is referring to the Father, but the writer explicitly identifies the Son as someone other than the one he identifies as “God” – whom he also identifies as the ONE who created the world.  So it’s another example (like the prayer in Acts 4 and Jesus’ own words in Mark 13:19) where God is identified as the Creator, while Jesus is clearly identified as someone else.

    We also know from Proverbs 8 that Jesus was created/born/given birth (numerous mentions) as the first of YHVH’s works, and then proceeds to tell about how he was there when YHVH created this, that, and the other.  So in Mark 13, we have Jesus distinguishing himself as someone other than God who created all things.  And in Proverbs, we have Jesus identifying himself as someone other than YHVH who created all things.

    We are told that God created through his Son – but we’re not really told what that means.  Likewise, Gen 1:26 (“Let us make man in our image”) implies that God’s heavenly sons played some role in the creation of man, but we don’t know what that role was.  This note from NET Bible rings true to me…

    In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court… If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). 

    So when I think of Job 38:7, where the morning stars sang and shouted praises while God laid the foundations of the earth, I think about Jesus referring to himself as a morning star in Revelation, and about Jesus saying in Proverbs 8 that he was rejoicing in God’s presence daily while God created the heavens and the earth and the mountains and human beings, etc.  Could it be that Jesus – who identifies himself as a morning star in Rev and rejoiced at God’s creations in Proverbs – was one of the morning stars who sang and shouted praises in Job 38:7?

    My understanding is founded in explicit scriptures.  Yours is founded in the twisting of certain scriptures to force them into your speculations.  Scripture doesn’t mention any “God the Son”, or “YHVH the Son”, or “Creator the Son”, etc.  These things are only in your mind.  Scripture says that God (one entity) created everything through his Son (a completely different entity who is clearly and categorically and explicitly identified as someone OTHER THAN the God who created all things).

    He who creates is one. He through whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian

     

    LU: The actual work of creation originated in the Son who laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens with his hands.

    arche <746>
    1) beginning, origin
    2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing
    in a series, the leader

    The default meaning of the word is “beginning/origin”, ie: the first person or thing in a series. As with our word “origin” (which can mean “the first thing” or “that by which something comes to be”), arche can also mean either.  But your choice doesn’t fit the context.  Like with the story of your house, it would be absurd to say, “Builder Bob was the ORIGIN of the house that Kathi created.”  Nor would we ever say, “Data Programmer Ted was the ORIGIN of the Apple Computer Company that Steve Jobs created.”

    Just like the two statements above give no context that we actually mean these people are the origin of “the hands on part” of your and Steve Jobs’ creations, Revelation 3:14 gives no context that Jesus is the origin of “the hands on part” of God’s creation.  Besides, by saying “the actual work”, you’re basically saying that you put zero work in on the design of your new home.  Are you really saying that designing isn’t actual work?  Have we been paying architects a fortune for nothing? 😁

    Anyway, without a clear and explicit distinction that Rev 3:14 is referring only to the “manual labor” part (which you still haven’t proven Jesus even did), Jesus saying that he is the “origin of God’s creation” cannot refer to him being the ORIGINAL SOURCE (because he wasn’t), and can therefore only refer to him being the “first person or thing in a series”, ie: the BEGINNING or FIRST CREATED THING.

    Now, add that to Col 1:15 (firstborn of every CREATURE) and Proverbs 8 (created me as the FIRST of HIS works), and Micah 5:2 (his ORIGIN is from ancient times), and you’ll start to see a clear picture.

    Kathi, it really doesn’t matter how much you WANT your speculation to be the truth.  The scriptural fact is that it simply isn’t.

    LU: Also the Son knows everything…

    Mark 13:32

    But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    Jesus disagrees with you.

    LU:  Jesus did say that God created…the Father created the world through Him, the Son.

    We are told in other scriptures that God created through his Son, but Jesus simply said that God was the one who created.  Don’t you find that odd if Jesus knew it was really the work of his own hands that were responsible for the heavens and the earth and everything in them?  How odd to say someone else created the things that YOU actually created.  🤔  Anyway, we agree that according to Jesus himself, his and our God did the creating.

     

    LU: Heb 1:10 is telling us that it is the Son that did the work of creation (the work of his hands it says), it isn’t saying that the Father didn’t give him the vision to do so.

    In your scenario, Heb 1:10 is God (who is only addressed as “God”, and never as “the Father” by the author of Heb 1) giving credit for the creation of the heavens and the earth to the Son.  Of course Heb 1:10 doesn’t actually say that this is something God said to the Son.  In fact, the preceding verses spell out clearly that God is saying something about the Son, and the following verse does the same.  1:10 is right in the middle with the notable and glaring ABSENCE of the words “God also says about the Son…”

    LU: The Father is giving the Son the credit of carrying out the Father’s vision in Heb 1:10 at the same time, identifying the Son as YHVH.

    Let’s lay this out clearly…

    1. The author of Ps 102 prayed specifically, knowingly, and solely to YHVH the Son (the one who actually did create the heavens and the earth).

    2. The author of Heb 1 somehow knew that this particular prayer to YHVH in Ps 102 was not to YHVH the Father, nor to YHVH the Binity (Father and Son together) – but to YHVH the Son alone (the one who actually laid the foundations of the earth and stretched out the heavens).

    3.  The author of Heb 1, by attributing the words in Ps 102 to God, is therefore saying that the prayer of the afflicted soul in Ps 102 was actually a prayer made by God (whom he previously credited with creating the world in verse 2) to YHVH the Son (who he is now crediting with creating the world).

    Does that sum it up?  God was an afflicted soul who prayed to his Son for deliverance in Ps 102, and credited his Son with the creation of the heavens and the earth?   Hmm…  I’m not sure about that one.

    #870475
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike…..there is not a single scripture that “says” Jesus “existed before Abraham ” not one. 

    What about this one?

    John 8:58 New Living Translation

    Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”

    The Greek words…

    said unto them Jesus truly truly say I to you before Abraham came into existence I exist

    Gene, that is an exact translation of the Greek words Jesus actually said.  The only odd thing for us in English, aside from the order of the words (for example, we’d say “Jesus said unto them” instead of “said unto them Jesus”), is the present tense of of those last words “I exist”.  They are in the Greek present tense, but read this from the NET scholars…

    Screenshot (108)

    Did you see that?  “Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek…  Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.”

    John 14:9 is a great example of this…

    King James Bible
    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? 

    The Greek words translated above as “Have I been” are actually in the present tense (just like “I exist” at the end of John 8:58).  While most English Bibles rightly translate those present tense Greek words (“Am I?”) as past tense (“Have I been?”) because it makes better sense to us, some Bibles keep it in the present tense anyway…

    Berean Literal Bible
    Jesus says to him, “Am I with you so long a time, and you have not known Me, Philip? 

    It’s just a matter of differences between languages.  Your wife wouldn’t say, “I am married to you for 40 years now.”  Instead, she’d say, “I have been married to you for 40 years now.”

    So just like the KJV above (and most English translations) fix the tense problem in John 14:9, they leave it as “I am” in John 8:58 because they think YHVH means “I AM”, and they pretend that in 8:58 Jesus is somehow claiming to be YHVH simply by uttering the phrase “I am”.

    Anyway, the proper meaning of John 8:58 is conveyed in the New Living Translation I posted above…

    Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”

    They didn’t change the meaning of the words.  They merely properly rendered the Greek “I exist” (present tense) into our equivalent “I existed” (past tense) – just like the vast majority of Bibles do in John 14:9.

    When I do the same thing, here are the exact Greek words Jesus said…

    said unto them Jesus truly truly say I to you before Abraham came into existence I existed

    So now you know that there is indeed a scripture that explicitly says Jesus existed before Abraham existed.  Cheers

    #870476
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Does that sum it up? God was an afflicted soul who prayed to his Son for deliverance in Ps 102, and credited his Son with the creation of the heavens and the earth?

    Of course, the Father wasn’t the psalmist. In Hebrews 1,the Father was making the connection of what was said in the Psalm to who  actually carried out those acts during creation, it was the Son, whom the psalmist calls YHVH and God.

    Enjoy your day! LU

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