John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,061 through 22,080 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #869841
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,
    This is how I read this:

    Heb 1:5

    5For to which of the angels did He (Father) ever say:

    “You (Angel) are My Son,
    Today I (Father) have begotten You (Angel)”?

    And again:

    “I(Father) will be to Him (Angel) a Father,
    And He (Angel) shall be to Me a Son”?

    6But when He again brings the firstborn (Jesus) into the world, He(Father) says:

    “Let all the angels of God worship Him(Jesus).”

    7And of the angels He(Father) says:

    “Who makes His angels spirits
    And His ministers a flame of fire.”

    8But to the Son He(Father) says:

    “Your(Jesus) throne, O God, is forever and ever;
    A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your(Jesus) kingdom.
    9You(Jesus) have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
    Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You(Jesus)
    With the oil of gladness more than Your(Jesus) companions.”

    10And:

    “You, Lord(Jesus), in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your(Jesus) hands.
    11They will perish, but You(Jesus) remain;
    And they will all grow old like a garment;
    12Like a cloak You(Jesus) will fold them up,
    And they will be changed.
    But You(Jesus) are the same,
    And Your(Jesus) years will not fail.”

    13But to which of the angels has He(Father) ever said:

    “Sit at My(Father) right hand,
    Till I make Your enemies Your(Jesus)footstool”?

    14Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

    Would you do the same and put in parentheses, after the pronouns, who you think they pertain to please. I think you see them differently. Thanks! LU

    #869842
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Gene and I do not deny, ” For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

    Such is defined by the below passages,

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying*, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Acts 2: 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 

    NOT YET FULFILLED, 

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 

    Berean, the fullness of the Godhead that dwells in Jesus is God’s Holy Spirit. This is the glory of the Father that is in the Son of Man when he returns to fulfill that which Isaiah says in chapter 11.

     This son of Jesse is LED by the Spirit of God and therefore he is a Son of God. A father’s role is to direct his children in the way that they should go. When God promised David that He WOULD BE a Father unto David’s son, that is what He meant.  God would cause the fullness of His Spirit to abode upon David’s son, where then God is a Father unto him as He directs him in the way that he should go. 

    #869843
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    YOU:

    @Jodi

    Jodi, I do believe that Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of His Father Yahweh God.
    The Bible clearly says Luke 4:18
    “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO BRING GOOD NEWS TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

    So, what’s your point?

    ME: Well I use that passage along with other passages for various points.

    For instance, that passage tells us WHEN Jesus became Christ (ANOINTED) and WHEN then Christ Jesus was sent into the world.

    I also use it to point out that this is YHVH’s word given to the prophet Isaiah now fulfilled in the flesh.

    Moreover this passage tells us that Jesus is our savior through the Spirit of YHVH.

    It just so happens that when the Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove coming to abode within him, God declared at that very moment that THIS was His Son, and we see that this Son is sent out into the world at that time.  John 3 speaks to him receiving of this Spirit at full measure. No other mortal man received that measure, only Jesus was begotten of such. That Spirit in full measure coming to dwell within him was him being born of the Spirit of God, which is why Jesus of Nazareth is called God’s only begotten Son whom God sent.

    John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Jesus is a man and he is referring to himself in verse 3 to Nicodemus. God is not just with Jesus as Nicodemus says, Jesus is telling him that he was born again of God. 

    The Spirit abodes within Jesus so he can be sent to perform signs and miracles but also to give prophecy of God’s coming kingdom. Jesus sees and preaches of the kingdom of God through having been born again, born of the Spirit of God. 

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    Jesus was born again at the river Jordon as an only begotten of the Spirit without measure, he died but was raised from the dead given eternal life and as God had promised unto David’s son, Jesus was settled into God’s house. 

    There is much more I could say about this but I will just leave it at that for now.

    #869844
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Great idea,

    Here is mine,

    1 God (Father), who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (Jesus), whom he (Father) hath appointed heir of all things, by (dia- on account of) whom also he (Father) made the worlds;

    3 Who (Jesus) being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his (Father) person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Father’s) power, when he (Jesus) had by himself (Jesus) purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high (Father);

    4 Being made so much better than the angels (prophets), as he (Jesus) hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    The prophets are messengers (Aggelos) of God, as the Son Jesus was likewise a messenger (Aggelos) of God,  

    5 For unto which of the angels (prophets) said he (Father) at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee (Jesus)? And again, I will be to him (Jesus) a Father, and he (Jesus) shall be to me a Son?

    6 And again, when he (Father) bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he (Father) saith, And let all the angels (prophets) of God (Father) worship him. (Jesus)

    7 And of the angels (prophets) he (Father) saith, Who maketh his (Father) angels (prophets) spirits, and his (Father) ministers (prophets) a flame of fire.

    8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God (Jesus), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God (Jesus), even thy God (Father), hath anointed thee (Jesus) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows (prophets).

    10 And, Thou, Lord (Father), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine (Father) hands:

    11 They shall perish (prophets); but thou (Father) remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

    12 And as a vesture shalt thou (Father) fold them up, and they (prophets) shall be changed: but thou (Father) art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    13 But to which of the angels (prophets) said he (Father) at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy (Jesus) footstool?

    14 Are they not all ministering spirits (prophets), sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

     

    #869846
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

     

    YOU DON’T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO VERSES

    COLOSSIANS 2:9

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 

    AND

    Luk4:1

    And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    IN JESUS MAN, THERE WAS THE FULLNESS OF DIVINITY AND ALSO THE FULLNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT SUPPORTED HIS HUMAN NATURE AS HE DOES FOR ALL OF HIS BORN AGAINST CHILDREN
    THE POINT YOU DIDN’T KNOW IS THAT HIS DIVINITY WAS UNITED TO HIS HUMANITY.

    LET WATCH THE VIDEO I POSTED

    THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST

    Have a good day

     

    #869847
    Berean
    Participant

    I ENCOURAGE ALL TO WATCH THIS VIDEO POSTED HERE

    Thé DIVINITY OF CHRIST

     

    #

    869781REPLY

    #869854
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi,  you reply # 869842 is exactly right. If they were truly of “the truth” they would understand it, and acknowledge it, But it only testifies against them , that they are not of the truth. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #869855
    Ed J
    Participant

    @mikeboll64

    Ed, I did a lengthy post a while ago on how the Word most certainly is Jesus. You didn’t say a word to refute it.

    Hi Mike,

    You post long bloated posts like “WorshipingJesus” used to post,
    and you don’t consider the things I say in response to what you say.

    So what’s the use when you won’t listen?

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #869856
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    What does Colossians 2:9 mean?  

    https://www.bibleref.com/Colossians/2/Colossians-2-9.html

    Speaking of Christ, Paul closely imitates the phrasing he used in Colossians 1:19. In chapter 1, the connection was reconciliation with God through the blood of Christ. Here, the contrast is between the importance of deceptive human philosophy and Christ’s wisdom. His ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9).

    These words also emphasize the human aspect of Jesus. Some taught that Jesus was divine, but not fully human. Paul clearly noted Jesus was physically human while also fully divine (John 1:1). Though modern skeptics often argue belief in the deity of Jesus was a later development, Paul clearly believed and wrote about the deity of Jesus in this letter, which was written around AD 60—62. This was a teaching Paul said he received from the apostles after his conversion, which occurred within three years of the resurrection (Galatians 1:18). The doctrine of Jesus’ deity is not a later invention, but the teaching of the eyewitnesses of Jesus.

    Context Summary
    Colossians 2:6–15 describes Christ’s superiority in defeating sin. This is shown in stark contrast to the failure of the unbelieving world. Paul encourages the Colossians not to be tricked by deceptive arguments. This passage also explains the drastic nature of salvation. Those who put their faith in Christ are ”spiritually” circumcised and are identified with God through their faith. This act of forgiveness by God frees us from the eternal penalty of sin, restores our relationship, and defeats the evil forces fighting against us.
    Chapter Summary
    In this passage, Paul warns Christians not to be taken in by deceptive arguments. These claims are attractive, but are merely tricks: they sound true, but they are not. Arguing for self-denial, legalism, visions, and other practices only looks good to observers. None of these are the real source of spiritual growth. Paul emphasizes the way Christ accomplished everything we need to be justified before God. As a result, there is no reason for believers to pursue these false, shallow ”shadows.” We have the real substance: Jesus, so we should follow Him.
    #869857
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed, my last post just asked a simple question.  Here it is again…

    Who did John the Baptizer come as a witness to?

    Surely that question is not a “long bloated post”, is it?  Surely you could just answer the question instead of diverting, right?

    #869858
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God (Jesus), even thy God (Father), hath anointed thee (Jesus) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows (prophets).

    I agree with your assessment of Hebrews 1.  The only part I understand differently is above, where I think both of the “Gods” are the Father, as in, “Therefore God – who is your God as well – has anointed you (Jesus)…”

    But that is a minor disagreement that amounts to nothing.  Well done.

    My understanding fits perfectly with John 20:17, “I go now to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God…”

    And when you think about it, this one single statement made by Jesus himself should completely nullify any debate about Jesus being the Most High God.  After all, Jesus clearly tells us that OUR God is also HIS God.  So who is our God?  Well, the same one who is the God of Jesus.  Which one is our God… Jesus or Jesus’ own God?  Jesus told us in plain terms.  End of story.

    #869859
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Jesus was born again at the river Jordon as an only begotten of the Spirit without measure,

    First, The Bible doesn’t say that! Second, That’s Gnostic heresy!

     

     

    #869860
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    But unto the Son he saith,

     

    I)

    Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    [9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    II)

    [10] AND,

    Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    [11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    [12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    [9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    [10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    [11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    [12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

     

    REV.3[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    #869861
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    But unto the Son he saith   I  AND  II

     

    HE = GOD THE FATHER

    #869862
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    IN JESUS MAN, THERE WAS THE FULLNESS OF DIVINITY AND ALSO THE FULLNESS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT SUPPORTED HIS HUMAN NATURE AS HE DOES FOR ALL OF HIS BORN AGAINST CHILDREN
    THE POINT YOU DIDN’T KNOW IS THAT HIS DIVINITY WAS UNITED TO HIS HUMANITY.

    ME:

    One who is of divinity (of divine nature) is one who is of the Holy Spirit of YHVH, they are the same thing as shown below in scripture.

    Below the promise is called the divine nature,

    2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine (Theios) nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 

    Below that same promise is called the Holy Spirit,

    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    Romans 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Acts 2: 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 17: 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead (Theios) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

    The Spirit bears witness to our spirit we are children of God.

    Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

    We are offspring of God and we ought not to think of the Godhead/divine nature/His Spirit, to which we are promised to receive, is like that of false idols.

    The Holy Spirit is our one God the Father’s Spirit, where the intelligence and powers of His Spirit are what make Him identified as being Divine. As He is the only being where of Himself He exists with these divine powers to which men ascribe as super natural, He is thus the only true God. His Spirit also expresses the function of His character, truthful, patient, full of justice, loving, etc.

    Our one true God YHVH ‘s Spirit is the SOURCE, to which He shares at measure according to His will and purpose with His created.  When Jesus was mortal and when he was resurrected he received the fullness of that Spirit, it was a calling to righteousness, it was receiving gifts of wisdom and understanding, it was receiving mighty powers, all the things that we recognize in him and by him that make him of the divine nature of the ONE TRUE Divine Being YHVH! When we are resurrected we are promised the Spirt/divine nature/Godhead to dwell in us to where we will walk in all of YHVH’s ways. Such will be the fulfillment of Jesus being a firstborn of many brethren. Such will be the fulfillment of the inheritance YHVH promised unto humans from the beginning of creation.

    Jeremiah 10:8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities. 9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men. 10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. 11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. 12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he UTTERITH HIS VOICE, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. 14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish. 16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name. 

     

    #869863
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    The TRUTH is the SUM of scripture, where I apply scripture with scripture.

    ME : Jesus was born again at the river Jordon as an only begotten of the Spirit without measure”

    Why don’t you discuss the scriptures that I gave that together support my statement above and tell me  specifically how it is you think I am wrong?

    Does the bible not tell us of a truth in more ways than one to bring greater meaning and understanding?

    Your really think that the Spirit of God coming to live within is not the same thing as being begotten of the Spirit of God?

    Is Jesus the only one who you know of that received the Spirit to dwell within him without measure, or do you believe there were others?

     

    #869878
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Good assessment of what JODI WROTE,  I think Jodi meant it the way you said,  I also see it the way  you put it too. Jodi is a real blessing to this site, because of all the scriptures she gives to support her conclusions, and mine too I might add.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #869879
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:

    But unto the Son he saith   I  AND  II

     

    HE = GOD THE FATHER

    Hi Berean, did you know that since the NT Bible writers did not use punctuation marks, they often wrote in run-on sentences connected by the word “and”?  Here’s just one quick example…

    http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Joh&chapter=10&verse=3

    Click on footnote 4 on the NET version at the top and read what it says.  (I was going to post a screenshot of this, but we apparently no longer have the ability to post images here.) Anyway, this is just one example of hundreds where English translations remove the Greek “and” because we use punctuation in English, and don’t need to begin each new sentence with the word “and”.

    The point is that the “and” to which you refer does NOT have to go along with “unto the Son he says”.  Verse 10 could be a completely different thought that has nothing to do with what God says unto the Son.  The fact that it starts with the conjunction “and” means nothing, as that is just Greek literary style.

     

     

     

    #869880
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Gene, thanks for the comment.  I hope all is well with you and yours too.

    #869881
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Only sinful human beings need to be born again, not the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ.

    Your verses doesn’t say that Jesus was born again.

    I’m sorry, but you are teaching heresy!

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