John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,081 through 22,100 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #869882
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Danny

    Amen You are right about That .

    Gene AND Jodi teach heresy…

     

     

    #869883
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Thank you!  What you said makes sense, I see it and agree with you that they are actually both referring to the Father.

    #869884
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Even without the “AND” IT IS NOT  QUESTION OF THE FATHER BUT OF THE SON …. PAMAGE THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS.

    But to us there is but one God, the Father,

    of whom are all things, and we in him;

    and one Lord Jesus Christ,

    by whom are all things, and we by him.

    #869885
    Berean
    Participant

    COLOSSIANS 1: 

    all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    #869886
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi, 👍

    Berean, all things came FROM God; all things came THROUGH Jesus.  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

    #869887
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: My understanding fits perfectly with John 20:17, “I go now to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God…”

    ME: This is the true scripture Mike,

    John 20:17 But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 

    As you can read “I ASCEND TO….” has nothing to do with your own term of  “I GO NOW…..”

    My question Mike is:

    What made you conclude that Jesus meant that HE PHYSICALLY WAS GOING TO HIS FATHER,

    WHEN WE ALL KNOW THAT JESUS REMAINED ON EARTH AT LEAST 40 DAYS  AFTER HIS RESURRECTION ON EARTH AND MANIFESTED HIS GLORIFICATION AS

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH!

    Why IT WAS VITAL THAT JESUS CHRIST BE PROCLAIMED

    THE TRUE GOD?  Mike, you might ask?

    1John5:20And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    SIMPLE: AS SOMETHING TRUE ON THIS PLANET MUST BE 

    MANIFESTED PHYSICALLY AND TANGIBLY  IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED AS TRUE!

    NOW THE FATHER COULD NEVER  FULFILL SUCH TASK HIMSELF AS A SPIRIT!

    A TASK FULFILLED BY HIS SON JESUS, WHOM HE HAS SENT, BOTH FOR THE LOVE AND TRUTH OF GOD THE FATHER AND OF HUMANITY AT LARGE IN THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.

    BY WHICH TASK FULFILLED BY JESUS ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS,  GOD THE FATHER ACCREDITED TO HIS SON

    ALL OF HIS GODLY THINGS! Well asserted in

    John17:10  And all my things are thine, and

    thine are mine; and

    I am glorified in them.

    Jesus confirms that

    HE IS GODMAN!

     

    MORE TO COME!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #869888
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:

    all things were created by him, and for him:

    All things were created THROUGH him. “By him” is an older English way of saying “through him”, or “by means of him”.  For example,

    Hebrews 1:1 KJV

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets…

    Of course you know that this means God spoke THROUGH His prophets, right? God’s word came to the people BY MEANS OF the prophets.  Similarly, God is the one who created, but He did that THROUGH Jesus.  But if you are ever in doubt, you need look no further than the prayer in Acts 4…

    24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

    You can see they are praying to the one who made all things, right?

    29And now, Lord, consider their threats, and enable Your servants to speak Your word with complete boldness, 30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.

    Can you also see that Jesus is not the one they were praying to (the one who made all things), but instead he is the holy servant OF the one who made all things?

    Understand?  They asked GOD to perform signs and wonders THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.  Jesus isn’t the one doing those signs.  God is the one who does the signs, but does them THROUGH Jesus or any of His other prophets.

    Acts 2:22

    “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    Who did the miracles?  God.  THROUGH WHOM did God do those miracles?  Jesus.

    Who spoke to the fathers of the past? God.  THROUGH WHOM did God speak to them?  His prophets.

    Who created all things?  God.  THROUGH WHOM did God create them?  Jesus.

     

    I hope this helps.

     

     

    #869891
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You seem to miss the spirit of one person doing something “through” another person. There are times when Jesus does things “through” the Father, and there are times when the Father does things “through” the Son. Both persons are significant in the action accomplished and both should be honored. You continually diminish the Son’s role in creation.

    Do you equally diminish everybody that works hard to accomplish their father’s will and tell everybody that the child didn’t do the task but instead it was the father that did the task since it was the father that showed him how to do it in the first place and told him to do it?

    Let’s say you ask your son to take your money, go to the store, buy all the supplies and build a fence for the neighbor’s dogs and the son does it. Would you give him credit for building the fence or would YOU take the credit for building the fence? Would it be right for the neighbor to thank only you and recognize only you for building the fence? Of course not. Neither is it right for you to think that the followers of Jesus would only credit the Father for creation unless the Son’s part in creation hadn’t been revealed yet. You know full well that apart from the Son, nothing in heaven and earth was made that was made but you claim that the Son isn’t honored equally as the Father in creation. You would be like the neighbor that praises the father of the boy that did all the work and only gives the boy a pat on the back.

    Have you ever been involved in coaching your son’s team and that team worked hard and followed all your requests, won all the games of the season, and you gave yourself a big tall trophy and all the players got a participation ribbon? Would you tell the news reporter that the team won because of you and not them necessarily, because you could have made any team win?

    That seems to be what you do with creation. The Father gets all the credit for creation, you say because the believers acknowledge YHVH as the creator of heaven and earth in their praise. Do you think that they are saying that Jesus should not be acknowledged also as the creator of heaven and earth? Do you think it is possible that they didn’t yet understand the fullness of YHVH and how Jesus is YHVH their righteousness?

    You still don’t seem to realize the value of that since you continually diminish the name by comparing Jesus to the city with the same name as if that means Jesus isn’t really YHVH, our righteousness. Maybe, just maybe the city has the same name because it is the city of the great king who is named YHVH, our righteousness. I can think of a lot of cities that are named after the great people who lived there.

    Both the Father and the Son take part in the miracles, of creation and all miracles. The Father serves the Son as a perfect father would naturally serve his son, and the Son serves his Father as a perfect son would naturally serve his father. The Father does things “through” the Son and the Son does things “through” the Father. Both serve each other willingly. Both ask each other to do things for them and both do the things asked of them by the other. It’s beautiful! They glorify each other.

    Nice to see you back, Mike.

    LU

    #869892
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    I beleive That THE SON OF GOD HAD IN HIMSELF AS HIS FATHER,THE LIFE( JOHN 1) AND POWER TO CREATE THE WORLD(COLOSSIANS 2:16)

    And I beleive Also That the Son do all things in communion with His FATHER( all in The gospel OF John WE see That)

    #869894
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean and LU…….MIKE , has presented it right, just as Jodi and I have, Jesus is and was always sub-servant to God the Father, always was and always will be.  “The son of man can do”NOTHING” of  “HIMSELF”.  Saying,  “I “always do those things that pleases the Father”.  And again, “I have come to do “thy” will, O God.”,  not “HIS” WILL, but the “WILL of him who sent him”. and again,  “the son of man came not to do “HIS” WILL, but the “WILL” of him who sent him’. 

    There are many, many, scriptures that show clearly Jesus is completely subject to the “WILL”  of God the Father,  in everything he ever did” , he was never equal to God the Father, but “COMPLETELY ” subject to him in “ALL” THINGS, even to the point of his death on cross or tree.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #869895
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..Trying to turn the man Jesus our brother into a God, as God the Father is , is IDOLATRY,  JESUS PLAINLY said this,  “that they might know “you” THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD”,  and Jesus who “YOU” have sent”.

    Every one who is saying Jesus is a true God or trying to make his name the same as God the Father’s , are in direct violation of many many many scriptures. Your reasoning about the Son doing the will of the Father, for his neighbor, making him “equal” in praise , is full of holes, because the neighbor would have never had his fence mended in the first place, if it were not because of the Father telling him to do that in the first place, so the one who should get the greatest honor is the Father.
    Trying to use human reasonings to justify a false teachings,  is futile and only confuses things. That is exactly what all trinitarian teachings do, they muddy the waters of truth. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #869896
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    What You Say IS NOT TRUE

    SIMPLY NOT TRUE

     

    #869899
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all,

    Since the sin of our first parents there has been NO DIRECT COMMUNICATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN. THE FATHER HAS GIVEN THE WORLD INTO THE HANDS OF CHRIST, that THROUGH HIS MEDIATORIAL WORK He may redeem man and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. ALL THE COMMUNION BETWEEN HEAVEN AND THE FALLEN RACE HAS BEEN THROUGH CHRIST. It was the Son of God that gave to our first parents the promise of redemption. It was He who revealed Himself to the patriarchs. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses understood the gospel. They looked for salvation through man’s Substitute and Surety. These HOLY MEN OF OLD HELD COMMUNION WITH THE SAVIOUR who was to come to our world in human flesh; and some of them talked with CHRIST AND HEAVENLY ANGELS FACE TO FACE.”  {PP 366.1}

     

    #869900
    Berean
    Participant

    Again: Christ is called the Word of God. John 1:1-3. He is so called because God gave His revelations to man in all ages through Christ. It was His Spirit that inspired the prophets. 1 Peter 1:10, 11. He was revealed to them as the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH, the CAPTAIN OF THE LORD’S HOST, Michael the Archangel.” {PP 761.5}

    #869901
    Ed J
    Participant

    Ed, my last post just asked a simple question. Here it is again…

    (Q) Who did John the Baptizer come as a witness to?

    Surely that question is not a “long bloated post”, is it? Surely you could just answer the question instead of diverting, right?

    Hi Mike,

    Yes very simple

    A Christ

    #869928
    Ed J
    Participant

    Ed,
    Q) Who did John the Baptizer come as a witness to?

    A) Christ

    Hi Mike,

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the HolySpirit. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.” (John 1:29-34)

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #869931
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    From the other thread you said: But you won’t accept the scriptures that speak about his divinity. So it is YOU who ignores much of God’s word.

    ME:

    Give me ONE scripture that I ignore and do not apply to other passages? Me not interpreting a passage as you do is not me ignoring scripture. Moreover I argue that your interpretations are false because you ignore passages that are to be directly applied in order to give the truthful understanding.

    I will take from two posts I gave to Berean earlier and give some of that to you.

    The promise is called the divine nature,

    2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine (Theios) naturehaving escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 

    Below that same promise is called the Holy Spirit,

    Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    Romans 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Acts 2: 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 17: 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead (Theios) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

    The Spirit bears witness to our spirit we are children of God.

    Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

    We are offspring of God and we ought not to think of the Godhead/divine nature/His Spirit, to which we are promised to receive, is like that of false idols.

    The Holy Spirit is our one God the Father’s Spirit, where the intelligence, character and Powers of His Spirit are what make Him identified as being Divine. As He is the ONLY being where OF Himself He exists of this divine nature, He is therefore the only true God. For us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER.

    Our one true God YHVH ‘s Spirit is the SOURCE, to which He shares at measure according to His will and purpose with His created.  The fruits of His Spirit to which He shares with others is His divine nature living within others. 

    Gene and I DO NOT DENY regarding Jesus that, ” For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

    Such is defined by the below passages as well as by apply the passages I gave above,

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being FULL of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Acts 2: 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Danny, give me the scriptures that you say I won’t accept that speak of Jesus’s divine nature?

    I certainly accept this passage,

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

     

    #869932
    Berean
    Participant

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 

    Jodi

    THIS MEAN JESUS HAVE THE DIVINE NATURE OF HIS FATHER AND ALSO       OUR HUMAN NATURE.(NOW GLORIFIED)….

     

    BEING FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ANOTHER THING

    JESUS ON EARTH WAS GOD AND MAN FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT

     

    #869933
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All,

    The image of the Son, Jesus Christ our Lord is made clear by Paul in Romans 8,

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    WHO HAS BASIC UNDERSTANDING TO WHICH THE WORD OF GOD COULDN’T BE MADE ANY MORE CLEAR????

    Paul gives us what the image of being a Son looks like, you have the Spirit bearing witness to your spirit and you have that Spirit directing all your ways leading you.  This would then be the VERY IMAGE of the Son to which we are promised to be made into. 

    Paul also says, Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. This matches perfectly with the promise Ezekiel spoke of where God is going to give us His Spirit and cause us to walk in all his ways.

    Paul likewise tells us that we are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (ANOINTED)

    When we read of Jesus having received the Spirit not by measure called an ANOINTING and we read that he was raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit, such is how we see the anointed Jesus existing in the image of the Father being an heir of God and being His Son.  What Jesus received is exactly what we are promised to receive and is exactly what we are told makes us a Son of God. THINK ABOUT THAT CLEAR GIVEN TRUTH FOR A MOMENT. Such is exactly why we are also then told that we are to be made into the image of the Son Jesus and that we are heirs of God JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST JESUS. 

    There was no Son of God until God declared him at the river Jordan when Jesus came up from the water and received the fullness of the Spirit to dwell within him. It is directly given to you that there was NO SON during the time of David.  It is directly given to you that God would one day be a Father unto David’s Son.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

    Paul teaches this likewise in,

    Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 

    First you have the seed of David and then he is made into God’s Son identified as the anointed.

    Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    The image of the Son is he who was anointed with the full measure of the Spirit where by such God directed all his ways making him a perfect man. 

    #869934
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Please provide scripture that gives definition to the divine nature and the definition of the Holy Spirit showing how they are different.

    As you say Jesus HAS both, so for each one what is it that they each give to him?

     

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