John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #869820
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said:

    Now how is Mary going to be able to be found with child without her knowing Joseph first?

    Such a miracle (a sign to identify the great coming king of the house of David) could only be found if it was of the Holy Spirit.

    If God could make a woman from Adam’s rib, He could make an egg fertile without a sperm to make the flesh body. Also, the spirit of a child is placed there by God, not the man anyway.

    LU

    #869822
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    Jodi,

    This passage is not referring to Jesus either:

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 

    ME:

    Of course it is not, it is referring to those that are resurrected when he returns. Not sure where you gathered I was applying it to Jesus. Let me clarify my position,

    Jesus died, and without his flesh being allowed to see decay, he was raised from the dead and received the PROMISED Holy Spirit. We are raised from the dead and according to Ezekiel 36 and Paul’s teachings, we are to receive the PROMISED Holy Spirit ALSO. WE are heirs of God, JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST. Along with Jesus we are HEIRS of God’s Spirit. 

    and, 

    those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God 

    and,

    we are to be made in the image of the Son so that he will be a firstborn of many brethren. 

    So can you see it LU, what this all directly teaches you?

    Jesus’s brethren are raised from the dead receiving God’s Spirit where it causes them to walk in all of God’s ways. Such equates to being led by the Spirit of God and if you are led by the Spirit of God you are then a Son of God. MOREOVER such ALSO EQUATES  to how it is that we are made in the image of the Son so that he could be a firstborn of many brethren. He too was raised receiving the Spirit according to a promise, just as we are promised. Which is exactly why we are told that we are heirs of God, JOINT heirs with the anointed Jesus. What does this all tell us also, that Jesus himself thus is a Son of God because he is led by the Spirit of God. 

    Let me also add, that Isaiah’s prophecies concerning Jesse’s son who has the Spirit of YHVH upon him, are not yet completed. They are to begin to be completed when this SON OF MAN returns in our Father’s glory, where dwelling within him and leading him is the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for YHVH. This MAN is going to accomplish YHVH purpose that He declared from the beginning, why we are told that all things were made by reason of and for him. This man brings forth life and peace when he comes to sit on his father David’s throne ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, where he is an eternal firstborn according to the Spirit that directs all his ways. 

    LU, this is all directly from scripture I have given time and time again. 

    #869823
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi,

    You asked:

    Can you explain speaking directly to the context of Matthew 1 how it is NOT telling us that Jesus is a true son of Abraham and David through Joseph?

    Matthew has a pattern throughout the list of generations…so and so begat so and so…UNTIL the list comes to Joseph, then the pattern stops. It does not say or imply that Joseph begat Jesus. Instead, the pattern changes and emphasizes that Joseph was married to the woman of whom Jesus was born.

    15Eliud was the father of Eleazar,

    Eleazar the father of Matthan,

    Matthan the father of Jacob,

    16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary,

    of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Also, as I have pointed out to you months ago, “of whom” is written in the feminine pronoun and refers to Mary.

    ME:

    16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Yes Mary begat Jesus, that doesn’t change the fact that Matthew is establishing Abraham to Jesus biologically where we were led from Abraham to Jacob and then to Joseph. How perfect it is that Jesus’s biological father that leads him to David and Abraham, is actually the husband to the mother who begat him. Who would of thought of such a thing, Jesus having his bio dad actually be the husband of his bio mom? All done through the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary.  

    The given truth from Matthew 1 verses 1-15  just doesn’t become null and void when you get to verse 16. 

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation (GENESIS, source, origin, lineage, ancestry) Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; ….15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;

    Matthew is giving us the DNA line that establishes Jesus as the biological son of David and Abraham. Matthew doesn’t go from Jesus to Abraham he chooses to start from Abraham to lead us to Jesus. By verse 15 were are led up to Jacob who we know is the biological father of Joseph.  As said, verse 1-15 doesn’t become null and void just because verse 16 changes in pattern. 

    Likewise, we don’t interpret verse 16 just to make verse 17 that Matthew uses to back up verses 1-15, null and void either. 

    17 So all the generations (GENEA, fathered, begotten, of the same stock) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

    Who comes in between Abraham and our anointed Jesus, where Matthew is establishing that Jesus is the biological son of Abraham and David, Jacob and Joseph do! 

    Additionally, the PURPOSE of the virgin birth ITSELF is given to you in Isaiah 7, it was for a SIGN (a miracle/ an act of the Holy Spirit), that the Great King and Savior of the house of David would come. Everything to do with a son of David and NOTHING to do with a pre-existing god becoming some one of a kind half-breed being.

     

    #869824
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    If God could make a woman from Adam’s rib, He could make an egg fertile without a sperm to make the flesh body. Also, the spirit of a child is placed there by God, not the man anyway.

    ME:

    Jesus is a human being of which is a certain kind of flesh. If God can create heaven and earth with two humans male and female made to reproduce after their own kind by sperm to egg, He can make a virgin pregnant with her betrothed husband’s seed.

    From scripture my understanding is that the spirit of a human is their mind that exists because of their brain. That spirit develops through both nature and nurture. When the brain is dead the person’s spirit is dead.  Without a live body there is no living spirit. A topic for another thread!

    #869825
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said:

    If God can create heaven and earth with two humans male and female made to reproduce after their own kind by sperm to egg, He can make a virgin pregnant with her betrothed husband’s seed.

    Do you recall how the angel appeared in the dream to Joseph shortly after he found out that Mary was pregnant, and spoke to Joseph words of comfort and encouragement to take Mary as his wife? None of those words said anything about using Joseph’s sperm and that the child was actually his. If the child was biologically his, that would have been a great time to tell him, but he was told this instead:

    Matt 1 20But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins.”

    The angel did not say to Joseph: “She will give birth to YOUR Son.” The angel said that Mary will give birth to A Son.

    LU

    #869826
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    I read your opening and ending statements with the below passage you gave,

    John 12: 36…These things Jesus proclaimed, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many [p]signs in their sight, they still were not believing in Him. 38This happened so that the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke would be fulfilled: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WILL NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND [q]BE CONVERTED, AND SO I WILL NOT HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke about Him.

    LU, there is no scripture that says YHVH is the Father and the Son along with the Holy Spirit. You are going to need a lot more than the passage above to try and prove such. I would argue of course that such a notion contradicts scripture.

    Jesus does not do all things in the Father’s name where that name is also his own name. 

    These passages speak to your error,

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    LU, JESUS IS A SERVANT to the LORD who created heaven ALONE. 

    JESUS IS A MESSENGER unto the LORD who created the earth by HIMSELF. 

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles….5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted*, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    The LORD who created the heavens and earth and did so ALONE all by HIMSELF, put HIS Spirit upon the son of Jesse and called him into righteousness for him to be for a light where he would be the LORD’S messenger preaching the LORD’S WORD.

    I will restate the biblical fact that couldn’t have been made more clear by Isaiah,

    JESUS IS A SERVANT to the LORD who created heaven ALONE. 

    JESUS IS A MESSENGER unto the LORD who created the earth by HIMSELF.

    #869827
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    Matthew’s genealogy establishes that the husband of Mary has David in his lineage among other things the genealogy shows such as significant historical events and number of generations. Matthew’s geneology does not use the words the “father of” Jesus but instead “the husband of Mary” who gave birth to Jesus. The emphasis is on who the husband of Mary had in his lineage. This establishes that Jesus, legally, is from the line of David and Solomon, not biologically through Joseph but legally through Joseph since Joseph is married to Jesus’ mother.

    Matt 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary

    of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    #869828
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    The “servant” here and “messengers” in Isaiah 44:26 are the prophets of God and apostles sent by God in general as opposed to the false prophets. I do agree that the Son serves his Father faithfully. We differ in that I believe that the Son served his Father faithfully during creation and after creation, before Mary and after Mary as the biological SON of God, not as a servant who is like Moses, who is not a bilogical son of God. Serving one’s own father would show perfection as a son. Jesus serves as a son over His house, Moses served as a servant in God’s house. See here:

    Hebrews 3:

    1Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: Jesus; 2[a]He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5Now Moses was faithful in all [b]God’s house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the boast of our [c]hope.

    If you are trying to say that the Son couldn’t serve within the unity that created the world then you don’t understand that the Son is the “outstretched Arm” of that Unity of YHVH that stretches out the heavens and the earth.

    If you are saying that the Son could not have served in creating the heavens and the earth because the scripture says that the LORD maketh all things…by Himself and was alone, then you don’t understand the speech of unity. For instance:

    The church is a unity and is one body. That one body, ALONE makes up the church of Christ who is its Head. You realize that the one body is actually made up of many bodies/members, and that ONE body ALONE makes up the church. Then there is the whole idea of there being ONE CHURCH but wait…in Revelation there are seven churches spoken about. This is what I mean when I mention the speech of UNITY. The unity called the church has many members, the UNITY OF YHVH has more than one member. The church ALONE is the body of Christ, YHVH ALONE created the heavens and the earth. The unity of YHVH, which has more than one member, created the heavens and the earth ALONE.

    Many scriptures speak to the fact that the Son was very much involved in the Genesis creation, the creation that will pass away and the Son is also involved in the new creation. Therefore, YHVH who created ALONE, is a unity of more than one member.

    Think about it. LU

    #869829
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    The “servant” here and “messengers” in Isaiah 44:26 are the prophets of God and apostles sent by God in general as opposed to the false prophets. I do agree that the Son serves his Father faithfully. We differ in that I believe that the Son served his Father faithfully during creation and after creation, before Mary and after Mary. Serving one’s own father would show perfection as a son especially a divine Son. Jesus served as a son, Moses served as a servant.

    Hebrews 3:5 4And every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5Now Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house, testifying to what would be spoken later. 6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.…

    If you are trying to say that the Son couldn’t serve within the unity that created the world then you don’t understand that the Son is the “outstretched Arm” of that Unity of YHVH that stretches out the heavens and the earth.

    If you are saying that the Son could not have served in creating the heavens and the earth because the scripture says that the LORD maketh all things…by Himself and was alone, then you don’t understand the speech of unity. For instance:

    The church is a unity and is one body. That one body, ALONE makes up the church of Christ who is its Head. You realize that the one body is actually made up of many bodies/members, and that ONE body ALONE makes up the church. Then there is the whole idea of there being ONE CHURCH but wait…in Revelation there are seven churches spoken about. This is what I mean when I mention the speech of UNITY. The unity called the church has many members, the UNITY OF YHVH has more than one member. The church ALONE is the body of Christ, YHVH ALONE created the heavens and the earth. The unity of YHVH, which has more than one member, created the heavens and the earth ALONE.

    Many scriptures speak to the fact that the Son was very much involved in the Genesis creation, the creation that will pass away and the Son is also involved in the new creation. Therefore, YHVH who created ALONE, is a unity of more than one member.

    Think about it. LU

    #869830
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..”hear O Israel, the LORD our GOD is “ONE” LORD, He is not more then “ONE”. , THAT IS IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE WHAT JESUS SAID.

    We’re  do you feel you people have the right to trespass his words?,  “you shall have not other GOD , BESIDE ME”.

    Even Jesus said ““that they might know “You” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD. 

    Seems Jesus knew clearly who was the “ONLY”  TRUE GOD.  Just as all “true” believers do also, according to scriptures,  “but unto “US”,  (true believers) , there is but “ONE” GOD and one mediator between men and God,  the “MAN” Jesus the anointed one.

    WHY is it you people never address those scriptures, are they not in you bibles, or do you people feel you PEOPLE SOMEHOW HAVE THE RIGH TO JUST IGNORE THEN.  Do you people actually believe you will not have to give an account for ignoring them?  As far as Jesus’ linage goes, he certainly is an offspring of king David, that is clearly established in scripture , not only by the prophets, but by Jesus own word himself.

    He was not any kind of “PREEXISTING” being , who was “MORPHED” into a human body. That is a complete lie . There is no scripture that connects or says there is a trinity of God, as ” God the Father, God the son, God the Spirit” doctrine. That is a false teaching , created by the “apostate churches”. Who will give a account at the return of Jesus by his own mouth for the LIE they have preached , “2ths2.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #869831
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    It is truly remarkable isn’t it, how many scriptures time and time again are treated as if they don’t exist and thus they then are never applied directly where they need to be in order for someone to have the actual truth.

    Jesus said,I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

    Paul said, “6 But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    For LU to turn and tell us that there is one God that consists of the Father and the Son, is as you said it, a lie, a lie that couldn’t possibly be more blatant against the direct word.

     

    #869832
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    LU is certainly closer to the truth than you and Gene ….
    YOU, YOU PREACH A CHRIST OUTSIDE THE LAW AND YOU TWIST THE SCRIPTURES WITHOUT YOU REALIZING … I HOPE
    GOD FORGIVE YOU, BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING

    #869833
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……Amen ,  Satan has done an amazing Job of deceiving this whole world, even in and through Christianity .  This was prophesied to happen, even by Jesus, and the Apostles.
    These “many”,  are saying not only Jesus is the Christ, they are saying he is a God, Christ ,  bringing the judgement of the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, On themselves , woe are they, unless they “REPENT”.  

    MY hope and prayer is that they will come to see the truth, and stop commuting “IDOLATRY ” . BY turning Jesus into A GOD, and remember the warning from John,  “little children keep yourselves from “IDOLS”.  Turning a man into a God, is committing “IDOLATRY”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    #869834
    Berean
    Participant

    Turning a man into a God, is committing “IDOLATRY”.  

    Majority here don’t Say Jésus IS a God

    BUT WE Say HE IS THE SON OF GOD

    AND IN HIM DWELLETH

     all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

     

    #869835
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean………The law says there is “only” one true God, and even Jesus said that,    you say there is three, so who is outside the law?  Where did Jesus ever use this term  , “God the Son”   at> please show us where Jesus “EVER” said that.
    The only ones preaching that, are you trinitarians and people like you saying Jesus is God, and saying Jesus himself is the very word of God , “himself”, even though he does tell us what God the father tells him to tell us, that does not make him God’s words himself.  Except if you apply that as saying Jesus is the fulfillment  of Gods word in the flesh, as Jodi brought out.

    Jodi and I are telling you people the truth, we are both bearing wittiness to you that your are not of the truth, or you would be agreeing with us.

    Peace and love to you and yours ……..gene

     

    #869836
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning LU,

    You had brought up a passage from Hebrews 1, where you have applied the wrong person to the text. 

    Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.13 But to which of the angels said HE at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    The Lord of verses 10-12 is He who is then in verse 13 speaking of Jesus, but you want to say the Lord in verse 10 is Jesus, so then Jesus is speaking to himself in verse 13? NO!

    Paul is quoting directly from the anointed king David from Psalm 102 in Heb 10-12. David was speaking of our one God the Father, he was not speaking about his future son whom he knew that the Lord his God would raise up from the dead not allowing his flesh to see decay. Jesus died and was raised BECOMING the firstfruits. Jesus was CHANGED, MADE a firstborn of many brethren, and out of those who would be changed he was the only messenger of God who would be anointed to sit at God’s right hand. A Son of Man anointed above his fellows.

    1 Corinthians 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet…51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

    Psalms 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

    Luke 22:69 Here after shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    LU, the Lord of verse 10-12 who made heaven and earth who does not change, says unto the Son of Man in verse 13, that HE will bring him to sit at His right hand until enemies are made his footstool.

     

    #869837
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    YOU DON’T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO VERSES

    COLOSSIANS 2:9

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 

    AND

    Luk4:1

    And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

     

     

    #869838
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks Berean!

    Many blessings for a great weekend,

    LU

    #869839
    Berean
    Participant

    Thank’s LU t the same for you and your family.

     

    #869840
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    This is how I read this:

    Heb 1:5

    5For to which of the angels did He (Father) ever say:

    “You (Angel) are My Son,
    Today I (Father) have begotten You (Angel)”?

    And again:

    “I(Father) will be to Him (Angel) a Father,
    And He (Angel) shall be to Me a Son”?

    6But when He again brings the firstborn (Jesus) into the world, He(Father) says:

    “Let all the angels of God worship Him(Jesus).”

    7And of the angels He(Father) says:

    “Who makes His angels spirits
    And His ministers a flame of fire.”

    8But to the Son He(Father) says:

    “Your(Jesus) throne, O God, is forever and ever;
    A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your(Jesus) kingdom.
    9You(Jesus) have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
    Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You(Jesus)
    With the oil of gladness more than Your(Jesus) companions.”

    10And:

    “You, Lord(Jesus), in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your(Jesus) hands.
    11They will perish, but You(Jesus) remain;
    And they will all grow old like a garment;
    12Like a cloak You(Jesus) will fold them up,
    And they will be changed.
    But You(Jesus) are the same,
    And Your(Jesus) years will not fail.”

    13But to which of the angels has He(Father) ever said:

    “Sit at My(Father) right hand,
    Till I make Your enemies Your(Angel) footstool”?

    14Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

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