John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,001 through 22,020 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #869756
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs,

    Good response to Gene.

    Keep it up 🙂

    LU

    #869757
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    Please answer this question as directly as you can and be as brief as you can.

    Do you actually believe that the Heavenly Father had intercourse with Mary to produce a son?

    LU

    #869758
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Thanks, LU

    #869764
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Paul in Colossians 1 speaks in two instances of just ONE specific Creation, that of the new heaven and earth. Paul leads up to these two instances of this Creation prior in verse 5,” For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;” and in verses 12-13, “12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:”

    Our hope is for the Eternal Creation to which Jesus was firstborn of, where he rules in that Creation as a King of kings sitting on his father David’s throne according to the flesh (Acts 2:30)

    And we read in verse 20 of Colossians 1, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Here we have Paul yet again providing context to his declaration of Jesus being a firstborn of the Eternal Creation (the new heaven and earth). That reconciliation speaks to what Paul spoke of earlier, without that reconciliation there is no hope, without it we are not translated into the kingdom of the Son. Without it we would have never been created in the first place. After Jesus shed his blood he was raised firstborn of the Eternal Creation, which is exactly what Paul speaks to prior to verse 20. Raised an ETERNAL Son, no longer to return to corruption being given the sure mercies of David (Acts 13:34) he is the image of the invisible ETERNAL God, the firstborn eternal Son over all of the ETERNAL Creation.

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (Paliggenesia –New Birth) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Such is the End that God had declared from the beginning where if it were not for the coming forth of this Creation there would have never been the first creation.  God from the beginning made the coming of this Eternal Creation dependent upon one man who would be raised up in righteousness and have God direct all of his ways (Isaiah 45:13 46:10-11). Not only was everything made that was made done by reason of Jesus but for Jesus, as he is the promised Son of David who would be settled into God’s house and be given an eternal throne according to God’s WORD.  

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

    LU, Jesus is that son of David where he not only didn’t exist as a son of David yet, he neither existed as God’s Son yet or dwelled in God’s house yet. He didn’t exist other than in the WORD OF GOD that GOD DECLARED IN THE BEGINNING alongside God’s WORD of Eternal Life. 

    #869766
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny……the word “before”, Used there, meant Jesus was “greater” in importance then Abraham was.  The Jews were always using their connection with Abraham as their highest connection with God,  but Jesus was telling that he was good “greater” importance to them then ABRAHAM WAS. 

    John the Baptist told them basically the same thing , telling them that GOD could raise up these stones for children of Abraham, if he wanted to.
    Jesus was not saying that he was alive before Abraham was , in he said Abraham looked “forward unto” his day and saw it and was glad.
    I will say it again not one scripture says Jesus actually existed before his birth on this earth, nor not one shows any “activity” of him Pryor to his birth on this earth, not even one. Forcing our text to say what they “specifically do not say or adding words to make it come out different is not good scholarship. IMO. 

    Peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    #869767
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu,  I believe what scripture says , the Spirit of God overshadowed her and he placed or deposited the DNA or Sperm from the loins of king David into her womb.  Do I believe God had a “physical relationship with her? No I don’t because God is Spirit, he is not physical, but do I believe he did cause her to become pregnant with the Sperm of a descendant of king David , I certainly do believe that. scripture backs that up in many places, even Jodies above post backs it up.

    Peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    #869769
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All

    The word of YHVH was of the coming of an anointed man sent out to be a savior where he would bring forth unto his brethren eternal life into a new and eternal heaven and earth. A man to come who would be raised up among his people as a prophet like that of Moses, but whoever did not hear the word of YHVH  to which YHVH gave him to speak, would be destroyed.

    YHVH declared from the beginning of a creation that would cease to exist, a man who would fulfill His purpose for mankind.  That man would be raised up in righteousness to have YHVH direct all his ways, where he would be led to die on a cross. That death would bring forth reconciliation for the purpose of a regeneration (new birth) into an eternal new heaven and earth. Without this man nothing would have been made that was made, all things were made by reason of him and for him, where in him YHVH had all things consist and was held together. By reason of him, because he would bring forth a reconciliation unto a New Creation. For him, because he would be the firstborn over all of it where he then reigns as a King of kings.   

    A man promised to come, a man that did come, a man that shed his blood and died, a man raised from the dead giving us hope to our own resurrection, a man ascending to sit at YHVH’s right hand, a man returning to sit on an eternal throne according to the flesh.

    Before Abraham, before Moses, before David, before John the Baptist even existed they were marked out as saved through the coming anointed Jesus, who said ” I AM the resurrection and the life“.

    Before they all existed, a man’s death on the cross that saves us was according to YHVH’s predetermined purpose and foreknowledge. In the life, they have life because of him, In the life he is before them as a firstborn overall of an eternal creation. In the life he is before them as being head over them all as their eternal King and Master. 

    #869770
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU and All,

    When was Jesus sent and thus when was his coming,

    Scripture speaks to the sending/coming of Jesus anointed and we are directly told that the sending/coming occurred after the baptism John preached Acts 13:24, as well as upon him receiving of the Spirit without measure Luke 4:18, John 3:34 (fulfillment of God’s promise given by Isaiah unto a future son of Jesse).

    Likewise Jesus compares his sending to that of the disciples. We read in John 17:18 that just as Jesus was sent into the world to do God’s work, they were sent into the world. Jesus received the Spirit and was sent and they received the Spirit (by measure) and were sent.

    Furthermore, Jesus says just prior John 17:16 “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” If you are not of the world and you are being sent into the world by the will of God, you’re coming down from heaven. Before Jesus said these things in chapter 17 he and John indeed taught prior that he came down from heaven.

    It is also good to note that the word God and Heaven can be and are used interchangeably, for instance the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are speaking to the very same kingdom. Likewise, “coming down from heaven” can mean the same as coming from God. Here is another example where “from heaven” directly represents “from God”, John 3: 27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

    We then read John say in verse 30, “He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all…. 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    The word of God of a coming anointed savior, came down from heaven and was given to the prophets. The fulfillment of that word also came down from heaven when Jesus was anointed of the Spirit without measure, who was then sent out into the world being directed in all ways from heaven. Jesus was coming to the people from heaven, directly from God!

    #869771
    Jodi
    Participant

    The Anointed Savior came in the flesh

    Christ/Chrisos means anointed. We are directly told that Jesus of Nazareth a man of flesh had the Spirit come to abode upon him where Jesus says this is an anointing (Chrio- to anoint) where he is being sent to do God’s work.  THIS IS thus Jesus anointed (Christos) coming in the flesh (such is God’s word of prophecy made true in the flesh.

    #869772
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

     

    That speeches to finally deny the divinity of Christ and therefore his preexistence … and his true right to be the Messiah Messiah……

    #869773
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Danny……the word “before”, Used there, meant Jesus was “greater” in importance then Abraham was.

    That’s not true.
    The word “before” in John 8:58 is Strong’s Greek: 4250. πρίν (prin) — 13 Occurrences

    Matthew 1:18 Adv
    GRK: τῷ Ἰωσήφ πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν
    NAS: to Joseph, before they came together
    KJV: to Joseph, before they
    INT: to Joseph before rather came together

    Matthew 26:34 Adv
    GRK: τῇ νυκτὶ πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
    NAS: [very] night, before a rooster
    KJV: this night, before the cock crow,
    INT: night before [the] rooster crows

    Matthew 26:75 Adv
    GRK: εἰρηκότος ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
    NAS: had said, Before a rooster
    INT: who had said Before [the] rooster crows

    Mark 14:30 Adv
    GRK: τῇ νυκτὶ πρὶν ἢ δὶς
    NAS: very night, before a rooster crows
    KJV: this night, before the cock crow
    INT: night before that twice

    Mark 14:72 Adv
    GRK: Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα δὶς
    NAS: the remark to him, Before a rooster
    KJV: unto him, Before the cock crow
    INT: Jesus Before [the] rooster twice

    Luke 2:26 Adv
    GRK: ἰδεῖν θάνατον πρὶν ἢ ἂν
    NAS: death before he had seen
    KJV: death, before he had seen
    INT: he should see death before that anyhow

    Luke 22:61 Adv
    GRK: αὐτῷ ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι
    NAS: He had told him, Before a rooster
    INT: to him Before [the] rooster crows

    John 4:49 Adv
    GRK: Κύριε κατάβηθι πρὶν ἀποθανεῖν τὸ
    NAS: come down before my child
    KJV: Sir, come down ere my child
    INT: Sir come down before dies the

    John 8:58 Adv
    GRK: λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι
    NAS: I say to you, before Abraham
    KJV: I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
    INT: I say to you Before Abraham was

    John 14:29 Adv
    GRK: εἴρηκα ὑμῖν πρὶν γενέσθαι ἵνα
    NAS: I have told you before it happens,
    KJV: you before it come to pass,
    INT: I have told you before it comes to pass that

    Acts 2:20 Adv
    GRK: εἰς αἷμα πρὶν ἐλθεῖν ἡμέραν
    NAS: INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT
    INT: into blood before come [the] day

    Acts 7:2 Adv
    GRK: τῇ Μεσοποταμίᾳ πρὶν ἢ κατοικῆσαι
    NAS: when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived
    KJV: in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt
    INT: Mesopotamia before than dwelt

    Acts 25:16 Adv
    GRK: τινα ἄνθρωπον πρὶν ἢ ὁ
    NAS: over any man before the accused meets
    KJV: die, before that
    INT: any man before that the [one]

     

    #869774
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said:

    Do I believe God had a “physical relationship with her? No I don’t because God is Spirit, he is not physical, but do I believe he did cause her to become pregnant with the Sperm of a descendant of king David , I certainly do believe that.

    What you are describing would be “artificial insemination.”  I thought Jodi believed that Joseph’s seed got Mary pregnant. I may be wrong but I remember her believing that Joseph begot Jesus, in error.

    Nevertheless, Jesus was the son of David because:

    His mother was a descendant of David and His legal earthly father, Joseph, was a descendant of David.

    Joseph was not his biological father, but Mary was his biological mother according to the flesh.

    The term “overshadow” represents the power of God coming upon her. That word is also found here:

    Acts 5:15 so as to bring forth the ailing into the broad places, and to lay [them] on beds and pallets, that at the coming of Peter, even [his] shadow might overshadow someone of them;…

    Surely you don’t believe that Peter was distributing sperm to them.

    Jesus is the son of Abraham also as a descendant. No where does the Bible say that Abraham or David’s seed directly implanted Mary’s ovum. If a man directly implanted Mary’s ovum, the baby would be born with original sin. Jesus was without sin.

    Blessings, LU

    #869775
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs,

    Nice presentation to prove that before refers to “time” not importance.

    LU

    #869776
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    Danny Dabbs,

    Nice presentation to prove that before refers to “time” not importance.

    LU

    That’s right, but they simply can’t accept it because it goes against their doctrine.
    Very sad.

     

    #869777
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    This shows you that Jesus is identified by the Father as YHVH that created the world in the beginning of time:

    Heb 1

    “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,

    AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

    11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;

    AND THEY ALL WILL WEAR OUT LIKE A GARMENT,

    12AND LIKE A ROBE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;

    LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.

    BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,

    AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

    Blessings, LU

    #869780
    carmel
    Participant

    Berean,

    YOU: That speeches to finally deny the divinity of Christ and therefore his preexistence … and his true right to be the Messiah Messiah……

    ME: WELL SAID!

    I already made this clear well back to Jodi and said that,

    The redemption process is AN ENTIRELY DIVINE INTERVENTION, which means

    GOD ALONE BY HIS OWN GENUINE MAGICAL SPIRITUAL WORK REDEEMED HUMANITY AND NOTHING OF MORTAL CORRUPTED EARTH BY

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN! Well declared by Jesus in

    John 8:23 And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world. 

    John 14:30 I will not now speak many things with you.

    For the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD  cometh,

    and HE HATH NOTHING IN ME.

    REFLECT, Jodi and Gene:

    HE HATH NOTHING IN ME.

    What did Jesus mean in the above!

    NO, YOU WON’T ADMIT EVEN IF YOU SEE THE TRUTH, OF WHICH I’M SURE YOU DON’T.

    HEAR THE TRUTH THEN:

    WHO IS THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD REFERRED TO BY JESUS?

    SATAN! NO?

    AND AS THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD, WHAT ACTUALLY ARE THE THINGS SATAN OWNED THROUGH THE SIN IN THE GARDEN,OBVIOUS

    THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS IN GENERAL PLUS EVERY FIRSTBORN COMMENCED IN CAIN! NO?

    Now if God had to have A FIRSTBORN throughout Jesus’ genealogy,

    HE PRODUCED IT BY HIS OWN SPIRITUAL INTERVENTION, COMMENCED IN ABEL! OK?

    NOW YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? NO YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID, WITH EVERY RESPECT!!!

    JESUS WAS BORN A FIRSTBORN, OF A WOMAN, HE HAD A HUMAN FATHER, HE WAS  A SON OF DAVID, A SON OF ABRAHAM,  AND IN HIS GENEALOGY THERE ARE NO LESS

    THAN FOUR CORRUPTED WOMEN!

    NEVERTHELESS, JESUS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX, MAN, and WOMAN, IN GENERAL!

    NEVER MIND SPERM, OVUM, DNA, and GOD KNOWS WHAT!

    THAT’S THE ONLY TRUE GOD I BELIEVE IN! Jodi and Gene. 

    YOUR GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE IN IS USELESS!

    Jodi and Gene, GET THIS INTO YOUR CARNAL MIND;

    IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THE REDEMPTION PROCESS IS ENTIRELY

    GOD’S INTERVENTION, 

    THE WORLD AND ITS ENTIRE PROCESSES,

    HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS IN ANY WAY!

    THE FACT THAT:

    OF ALL THE ANOINTED, ONLY JESUS IS CALLED

    THE CHRIST.

    John 4:25  The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (WHO IS CALLED CHRIST); therefore, when he is come,

    he will tell us all things.

    26Jesus saith to her:

    I am he, who am speaking with thee.

    The fact that

    JESUS OVERRULED ENTIRELY THE WORLD AND ITS ENTIRE PROCESSES.

    John16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence,

    I have overcome the world.

     

    Jodi and  Gene,

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK, and IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE TO ALL OF HIS WORK,

    The fact that the four corrupted women mentioned in Jesus’ genealogy  didn’t effect

    JESUS’ PURITY IN HIS FLESH! clearly asserted in

    1Corinthians 1:29 That NO FLESH should glory in his sight. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

    #869781
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: 

    That speeches to finally deny the divinity of Christ and therefore his preexistence … and his true right to be the Messiah Messiah……

    ME: Messiah means anointed and there are more than one Messiah’s in scripture, they were all anointed by the predetermined purpose of our one God the Father YHVH.  Jesus of Nazareth the son of David, was anointed to fulfill YHVH’s purpose for why He ALONE, ALL BY HIMSELF created heaven and earth in the first place. Multiple Messiah’s but only one anointed with the Spirit without measure to save the world!

    Scripture tells us clearly that the divinity of the anointed Jesus is OUR SAME PROMISED DIVINITY.

    Isaiah 61 fulfilled in Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,…14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about….18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted…

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

    John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that THIS IS the Son of God.

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having RECEIVED of the Father the PROMISE of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (new birth) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. 

    1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 

    AH!!! You see it Berean?!  ONE BODY MADE UP OF MANY MEMBERS REPRESENTS CHRIST in the above passage from Paul. CHRIST doesn’t represent just Jesus, but ALL of THE ANOINTED OF THE SPIRIT represent CHRIST. Along with Jesus we partake of the divine nature when we drink of the ONE SPIRIT of YHVH as he does. We together with him make up ONE BODY, ONE ANOINTED (CHRISTOS) BODY.

    Berean, do I need to break down the direct connections to all these scriptures individually for you, because you speak as though you are completely blind to them all?

     

     

    #869782
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU:

    What you are describing would be “artificial insemination.” I thought Jodi believed that Joseph’s seed got Mary pregnant. I may be wrong but I remember her believing that Joseph begot Jesus, in error.

    ME: You are actually wrong on what you thought you remembered by belief was.

    I believe that by the power of  YHVH’s Spirit Mary became pregnant with Joseph’s biological son without them having come together.

    I believe this because Matthew tells us he is giving us the GENESIS of Jesus where we then are given the lineage of Abraham to Joseph. Thereafter the lineage (GENEA -men of the same stock/DNA) is condensed to speak of generations to which Joseph is included. Men of the same stock begin from Abraham and go to David and from David unto the carrying away of Babylon and from there unto Christ. The text is clear, very straightforward, that Jesus is a biological son of Abraham and David through Joseph.

     

    #869783
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Berean, do I need to break down the direct connections to all these scriptures individually for you, because you speak as though you are completely blind to them all?

     

    Me

    Jesus Christ was GOD BEFORE COVERING OUR HUMANITY AND HIM ALREADY QUALIFIED TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD
    IT IS WRITTEN IN PHILIPIANS 2

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    WITHOUT IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO BE QUALIFIED TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD …

    BUT AS SAID PREVIOUSLY, THIS IS THE FIRST CONDITION, STEP TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD …

    WITHOUT THIS WE HAVE NO SAVIOR ….

    #869784
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Jodi listed over 20 scriptures that are actually written in scripture,  that support what we both are telling you, you people show only very little scriptures , only the ones you can force texts to say what you want them to say,  even the one you do produce you add to them things they are not even hinting at. Then deny all the scriptures we quote to you that shows your errors, even scriptures Jesus himself said you deny.
    Scriptures like,  “that they might know “you” the “only” true God.,   Tell us why would Jesus ever say that if he were a True God?   Simple question , deserves a simple answer.

    Another simple scripture, what does this mean to you people? “But unto us there is but “ONE” GOD, and “one” mediator between God and men , the “Man” Jesus Christ“.

    You people have taken a “MAN” and turned him into a GOD,  but scripture say “GOD is not a man , that he should lie, nor is he a Son of man that he should repent”.  Jesus said he was a Son of man over 80 times as I recall . Scripture tell us in several places he was from the roots of Jesse and and the root and offspring of King David.  Is that not what Jesus said out of his own mouth ?
    Show one scripture where Jesus’ linage is linked to being the offspring of Any “PREEXISTING ” being before his birth on this earth? 

    Jesus told us to pray like this,  “OUR” Father who art in heaven”,   He included himself also by saying “OUR” , FATHER “.  so what does that tell us, Jesus views his relationship to GOD “EXACTLY” AS WE SHOULD.

    Our God told us “you shall have no other God besides me”. But you have taken the man Jesus And made him your God,  and you worship him as such.  You have turned the “image” of Jesus into a man of sin,  how?, by making him out to be a God, which breaks “the “ONLY” TRUE GOD’S commandment ” 2 THS 2.  

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

Viewing 20 posts - 22,001 through 22,020 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account