John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,981 through 22,000 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #869730
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..wrong again , what Jesus meant when he said “he and the Father are one,”, was he was in agreement, with the Father, because he did everything the Father was telling him to do.  So they were acting, as one, the same could be said by anyone who is  sent and doing , God the Fathers will.  He also could say., “I”, came not to do “MY WILL” but the  “WILL” of the one who sent me.  He could also say me and the one who sent are one also.

    God the Father has put “all things under all of our human feet, that is created” read this , it might help you.
    what is man that you visit him,  for you have made him a ‘little” lower then the angels, you have given him (mankind) glory and honor, you have put “ALL THINGS” UNDER HIS FEET (mankind’s feet) , in that he (God) says “ALL THINGS ” there is “NOTHING” that is not under his (mankind’s) feet.
    Jesus is one of us “mankind” ,  was he not made a “little lower” then the Angels too, was not he raised in Glory and honor himself too, was not all thing placed under he’s feet too? ,  did he not have to suffer death just as we do?,  scripture shows Jesus as a human being just like us,  you move Jesus away from his human roots and creation,  you are of those who drive a wedge between him and us, his brothers and sisters, just because he is the first to achieve the Goal God the Father has in mind  for all mankind.
    Berean …you are not speaking the truth about “the man Jesus”, but speaking what you have been taught by fallen Christianity. 2ths2 . it’s all there for those who have eyes to see.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #869731
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    AS USUALLY, YOU ONLY SEE ONE SIDE OF TWO SIDES.
    1- THE SON IS DIVINE AND HAS PRE-EXISTED … EVERYTHING WAS DONE BY HIM IN HARMONY WITH HIS FATHER.
    2- HE WAS MADE MAN AND IN HIS LIFE OF MAN, HE CONTINUED TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF OBEDIENCE OF LOVE FOR GOD AND HIS NEXT BY BEING IN CONSTANT COMMUNION, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT, WITH HIS HEAVENLY FATHER (EXACTLY AS WE SHOULD DO …)
    UNTIL DEATH, DEATH OF THE CROSS …

    Wherefore also God hath exalted him exceedingly, and hath given him the name which is above all names,

    2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow in the heavens, in the earth and under the earth,

    2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (PHILIPPIANS 2)
    AMEN
    GOD BLESS YOU

    #869732
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene, a PERSON rides a horse in Revelation.  That PERSON has one of his many names written on his robe.  That name is “The Word of God”.  In Revelation 19, John 1, and 1 John 1, “the Word” is not just a spoken word, but the name/title of a PERSON.  In John 1, this PERSON called “the Word” became flesh and dwelled among man on earth -and John the Baptizer testified in the wilderness about him. In 1 John 1, this PERSON  called “the Word” was seen by their own eyes and touched by their own hands – so clearly not a literal spoken word.  And in Revelation, this PERSON rides a white horse and does battle against the beast and his armies.

    So Gene, in your understanding, can a spoken word actually become (not “come to be IN” – as you twist it to say) a flesh human being?  Can a spoken word ride a horse and do battle?  Can a spoken word be seen by human eyes and touched by human hands? If not, then your understanding doesn’t align with scripture.  It’s time you amend your understanding.

    #869733
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Mike and all……The”WORD” OF GOD was and is Expression of God himself and represent who he is, just as your words comes from you and represents who “you” are. 

     

    ME: Again Gene you put God in the same basket as

    CORRUPTED MORTAL FILTHY AND USELESS HUMAN BEINGS!

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be,

    which shall go forth from my mouth:

    it shall not return to me void,

    but it shall do whatsoever I please,

    and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    Now Gene, tell us something about your words please! 

    TELL US WHAT DOES YOUR WORD DO!

    By the way 

    NOT LIES!

    YOUR WORDS Gene, ARE NOTHING,  YOU PRONOUNCE THEM, AND THEY END UP WITH THE WIND.

    GOD’S WORD IS SPIRIT. 

    THE MOMENT HE PRONOUNCES THEM HE CREATES IMMEDIATELY WHAT HE WANTS. IT’S THERE IN FRONT OF HIM.

     

     

    YOU:   ““the word I am telling you are , NOT “MY” WORDS, but the WORDS of him who sent me.

     That alone should tell anyone that Jesus himself is not God, or his word either.

    YOUR WORDS  ABOVE GENE ARE LIES AND TWISTED WORDS!

    YOU USED THE PLURAL FOR YOUR OWN INTEREST and YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH AT ALL SINCE YOU NEVER PRODUCED THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURE SPECIFCALLY!

    THIS IS THE RIGHT SCRIPTURE Gene!

    John14:24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not MY WORDS

    IN THE ABOVE VERSE Gene, Jesus IN ORDER TO MAKE AS AWARE OF THE TRUTH, FIRST referred to HIS TEACHING and He used the plural, AND THEN HEREUNDER  IN THE SAME VERSE, HE USED THE SINGULAR! READ:

    And THE WORD which you have heard,

    is not mine; but the Father’s who sent me.

     OK? JESUS USED THE SINGULAR AND HE REFERRED TO

    HIS SPIRIT and He Himself asserted  that 

    HE IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT SENT FROM THE FATHER.

    NOW LET’S READ

    John12:44But Jesus cried, and said:

    He that believeth in me, doth not believe in me,

    but in him that sent me.

     45And he that seeth me, seeth him that sent me. 

    The above Gene is a clear SCRIPTURE which confirms that there ‘s no difference at all

    between GOD THE FATHER and JESUS!

    46I am come a light into the world; that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness. 

    47And if any man hear MY WORDS, and keep them not, I do not judge him:

    48He that despiseth me, and receiveth not MY WORDS,

    hath one that judgeth him;  (ATTENTION Gene)

    THE WORD (Jesus the Son of Man) that I have spoken,

    the same shall judge him in the last day.

     

    JESUS’ OWN WORDS ABOVE ARE CLEAR GENE I’M AFRAID:

    “THE WORD” IS Jesus the Son of Man and He

    shall judge those who despises and rejects Jesus’ OWN WORDS.

     49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who sent me,

    he gave me commandment what I should say,

    and what I should speak.

    ANSWER this Gene:

    WHEN DID THE FATHER GIVE HIS  COMMANDMENT TO JESUS?

    I AM ANXIOUS TO HEAR 

    YOUR WORD

    DENYING THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS’ SPIRIT.

     50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting.

    The things therefore that I speak, even as the

    Father said unto me, so do I speak.

    Gene, IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FATHER’S WORDS AND JESUS’ WORDS?

    JESUS’ WORDS ARE THE FATHER’S, and THE FATHER’S WORDS ARE JESUS’ WORDS!

    THE PURE REASON THAT JESUS IS

    “THE WORD” spoken of God

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #869734
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Berean…..wrong again , what Jesus meant when he said “he and the Father are one,”, was he was in agreement, with the Father, because he did everything the Father was telling him to do.  So they were acting, as one, the same could be said by anyone who is  sent and doing , God the Fathers will.

    Read Hereunder Gene, NOW:

    John17:1THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    ARE THEY ONE Gene?

    tell us now your understandings!

    John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,

    ARE THEY ONE Gene?

    with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

    ARE THEY ONE FROM ETERNITY Gene? 

    Now they have known,

    that all things which thou

    hast given me,

    ( PRESENT PERFECT TENSE; COMMENCED IN THE PAST AND CONTINUED IN THE PRESENT, PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS)

    are from thee:

    ASSERTED HEREUNDER:

    John17:9 Because THE WORDS ( PLURAL, THE GOSPEL) which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed that

    I came out from thee, (PRE-EXISTED ONE WITH THE FATHER)

    and they have believed that thou didst send me. 

    John17:10 I pray for them: I pray not for the world,

    but for them whom thou HASTH GIVEN me:

    AGAIN Gene, present perfect tense, Jesus was given His apostles before he came down from heaven 

    because they are thine: 

    10And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    ARE THEY ONE Gene, from eternity?

    and I am glorified in them.

    WHO IS  GLORIFIED 

    BOTH IN THE THINGS OF GOD AND OF HUMANS Gene

    GODMAN?

    John 17:22 And the glory which thou HASTH GIVEN me,

    Again present perfect, Jesus’ pre-existence!

    I have given to them; that they may be one,

    as we also are one:

    ARE THEY ONE

    John17:24 Father, I will that where I AM,

    Jesus is eternally ONE WITH THE FATHER

    THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD BEFORE THE WORLD WAS! IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN 

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou

    hast given me,

    PRESENT PERFECT TENSE; JESUS PRE-EXISTENCE AS THE PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT OF GOD!

    THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD!

    ANSWER Gene, WHAT IS THE HEAD WITHOUT THE BODY  isn’t it just a SKULL or 

    THE BODY WITHOUT THE HEAD isn’t it just a TRUNK?

    ARE THEY ONE THEN???

    because thou hast loved me BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #869736
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..being called something, do not mean you are the actual thing “yourself” , Jesus is called the word of God because he speaks to us God the fathers words.  That is not saying Jesus is “himself” God the fathers very words,  he acting as a “mediator” Tells us what God the Father says.
    “But unto US (true believers) there is but “ONE” God And ONE “mediator”,  between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus the anointed one.
    Mike what part of that you don’t understand?  Jesus the man or son of man  is called the word of God, because he like all the Prophets did, brings to us the words of God the Father, no prophet himself was the actual words of God themselves, that includes Jesus also.  

    Mike where it say the word (of God) became flesh,  is not saying Jesus “IS”, the word of God himself, it is saying Gods prophetic words spoken yo us by his His former Prophets became  “flesh”, the “flesh”   man Jesus.  it is not saying Jesus himself became the words of God himself , but the fulfillment of God word , was the flesh man Jesus.  Get it?
    God and his own word are the exact expression of himself, just as you and your words are, no difference.
    Jesus spoke to us God the Fathers word not “his’’ words but What God the Father told him to say to us.

    Hear what Jesus himself say regarding the words he was telling us.  “The words I am telling you, are “NOT MY WORDS” but the “WORDS” OF HIM THAT SENT ME. Just that simple, nothing complicated about it. 

    Why would he say that those words he was telling us were not “his words”  , if he himself was those very words himself.  Jesus was a messenger and told us God the Fathers words not “his” words.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

     

    #869737
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,
    I asked Berean to show how a handful of passages fit his doctrine, for I say that those passages prove his doctrine is false.

    I asked him to discuss those passages directly and HE DID NOT, instead he gave me two new passages to prove his doctrine is correct.

    I took those passages that he gave and applied them to other passages to reveal that he interprets those passages wrong. I then additionally applied all of those to my original ones as they indeed all fit together to prove my point.

    His last response since then was to speak to my denial of the only begotten Son’s divinity. Which is just another instance of Berean refusing to discuss direct scriptures I have given, where I speak to the divine nature of the Son of God.

    So let’s get this straight Ed J, you like to give support to a person who IGNORES scriptures, even when they are directly asked to speak to them, and discredit another for speaking to ALL scripture and giving multiple passages to back what they say?

     

    #869738
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..Amen to that, that is exactly what they do. they do not deal with the scriptures we have quoted to them , they just roll over them as if they were not even in their bibles, or just mean nothing to them. That’s how we can tell they are not of the truth , or they would at least truthfully consider them.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #869739
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel ….You still bounce all over the place changing parts of scriptures, miss quoting them , add your Carnal thoughts into them , making long post trying desperately to throw people off from finding the truth out.
    You have been completely over taken by a deceiving Spirit, causing you to do that> IMO, my hope is that God will remove that Spirit that has deluded your mind, and open your eyes to the real truth.

    Peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    #869742
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Thanks for tying your last post to me back to the main point of our discussion.

    Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    The “host” of them is speaking to the whole of creation, all that He had made that we read in Genesis 1.

    Tsaba – hosts

    that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host

    army, host

    host (of angels)

    of sun, moon, and stars

    of whole creation

    Your stance is that the creation of the celestial messengers is held alongside when God created the sun, moon, and stars.  Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. I don’t find that convincing, and as I said the “hosts” of Genesis 2:1 is them all, as in ALL the hosts of the heaven and earth within the creation of Genesis chapter 1.

    My understanding is that you see Jesus as existing as the same kind of being that our heavenly Father is, and that he is His only Son in that manner. You believe the angels (Sons of God) were created after Jesus.

    But for me, even if it were true that God’s Sons the angels, were created towards the beginning of the creation we read in Genesis, that doesn’t change the fact that scripture tells me directly that he didn’t exist before his birth on earth. Moving forward discussing this topic I’d like to stick with what we can prove from scripture. I will not take us down a rabbit hole again on this topic by talking about ideas formed from certain passages. I will only speak to the direct truth given from scriptures (the sum of them all where there are no contradictions).

    I’ll post again soon discussing specifically the passages you mentioned where I see that your interpretations to those create contradictions.

    Thanks again for brining us back to the topic at hand!

    #869743
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU: Where is Jesus’ body now, that was born of Mary?

    ME: Lu, Scriptures hereunder are clear enough where Jesus’ body “THE WORD” made Flesh is;

    To be clear, THE BODY furnished by the Father; THE SON OF MAN;

    NOT THE SON OF GOD OF THE HOLY GHOST/OF MARY.

     

    Colossians 3:1 Therefore, if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above; where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God:

    Acts 7:54  55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looking up steadfastly to heaven, saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And he said: Behold, I see the heavens opened and,  THE SON OF MAN standing on the right hand of God. 

    Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) 6And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus.

    Daniel 7:13

    13I beheld therefore in the vision of the night, and lo, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and he came even to the Ancient of days: and they presented him before him.

    14And he gave him power, and glory, and a kingdom: and all peoples, tribes and tongues shall serve him: his power is an everlasting power that shall not be taken away: and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #869744
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Gene,

    YOU:Carmel ….You still bounce all over the place changing parts of scriptures, miss quoting them ,

    ME: Don’t you have the decency to be specific NOT JUST USELESS BLA, BLA ad BLA???

    TILL YOU DO SO MINE STANDS AS TRUTH!

    YOU:add your Carnal thoughts into them , making long post trying desperately to throw people off from finding the truth out.

    ME: THE ABOVE IS  A PROOF OF YOUR POOR REASONING AND LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURE SINCE YOU NEVER SPECIFICALLY PRODUCED ONE SENTENCE AND CONTRADICTED ME USING SCRIPTURE!

    HAVE A GO Gene, WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?

    THAT  SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING, YOUR LIES AND POOR MATURITY  WITH EVERY RESPECT BE REVEALED!

    YOU: You have been completely over taken by a deceiving Spirit, causing you to do that> IMO

    DOING WHAT Gene? YOUR OPINION IS VOID UNLESS YOU BE SPECIFIC, IT IS

    You THAT has been completely over taken by a deceiving Spirit, causing you to do that> IMO

    YOU: my hope is that God will remove that Spirit that has deluded your mind, and open your eyes to the real truth.

    ME: YOUR ONLY HOPE IS THAT I STOP COMMENTING ON YOUR POSTS SINCE YOU ARE PREOCCUPIED AND SPEECHLESS! GET THIS CLEAR Gene,

    INTO YOUR POOR CARNAL MIND THAT UNLESS YOU BE SPECIFIC IN YOUR COMMENTS, IN THE TRUTH

    YOU ARE NEITHER COMMENTING REGARDING MY POSTS NOR BEING COMMUNICABLE AT ALL SIMPLY BEING VOID NATURALLY!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #869745
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: I don’t believe in the life of the “soul” after death.
    1 Thess. 5:23 tells us that the human being is made up of spirit, soul and body
    It’s 3 things are inseparable …..

    May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely, and may your whole being, spirit, soul and body,

    be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ! (1 Thess.5:23)

    ME:The above is a clear message while we, as a whole being on earth, in SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY, at  Jesus Christ coming we be kept blameless.

    The above does not refer to humans after death, but while they are A WHOLE BEING ON EARTH!

    YOU:When we die, our whole being dies: body, soul and spirit are no longer alive

    No I’m afraid for the simple reason that humans are formed not in ONE SAME  PROCESS!

    But IN THREE SEPARATE PROCESSES!

    The fact that WE ARE in the last process of spiritualizing our WHOLE BODY and FOR THE FIRST TIME INTEGRATE AND BECOME ONE ALL SPIRITUAL  IN CHRIST, THE ONLY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH THAT HE CAME OUT FROM GOD THE FATHER, FOR THE HUMAN RACE SAKE AND HE SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY AND INTEGRATED IT WITH THE HOLY GHOST, THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, FIRST BY THE END OF HIS THREE YEARS OF HIS MISSION, AND THEN GLORIFIED IT  IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS IN

    JESUS CHRIST, John 13:31,32, John4:36,37, John17:1

    MORE TO COME

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #869746
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless all

    #869747
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    JESUS CHRIST, John 13: 31,32, John 4: 36,37, John 17: 1

    I don’t understand where you are coming from

    What I wrote to you last time I keep it

    THE SOUL THAT SIN IS THE ONE THAT SHALL DIE
    EZÉCHIEL 18:20
    ONLY GOD IS ETERNAL

    #869748
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Jodi

    You’re welcome.

    You said:

    My understanding is that you see Jesus as existing as the same kind of being that our heavenly Father is, and that he is His only Son in that manner. You believe the angels (Sons of God) were created after Jesus.

    That is correct, Jodi. I also believe that the Son, according to the flesh, did not exist until the conception in Mary. He existed according to the spirit eternally in the essence of God.

    I look forward to your response to my previous post.

    Have a great week! LU

    #869749
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Good words!

    #869750
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    I agree that Jesus is in his glorified body at the right hand of the Father.

    Blessings, LU

    #869754
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..that scripture says not that Jesus is the only song of God, meaning God has no other Sons,  no it is saying he was the only one in and of humanity, that God himself , provided the DNA through a process of inter coarse, in a human women. Therefore Jesus is the “only begotten” from humanity by God “himself” directly. 

    God the Father himself impregnated a human women, with the DNA OF KING DAVID.  THAT makes JESUS  the “only” “begotten” “human”, son of God “FROM” humanity, which God himself caused to be Born through, a flesh birth process’ . It also fulfills all the other things Jesus said about himself.  He is without a doubt a SON OF MAN, and also A SON OF GOD, who Fathered him,  with the DNA OR SEED that came from the roots of Jesse, and thus was a offspring of David,  just as Jesus said he was.

    Adam scripture tells was also a Son of God by way of “creation” and so was Eve,  but the first “begotten” from them was Cain, he was the first begotten from humanity, by humans , Jesus was the first and only  begotten from humanity by God himself through a sexual encounter with a women.

    Lu….Jesus never persisted before his birth on this earth ,  except in the plan and will of God, who caused him to come into existence exactly as we are through a human birth process. There is not a single scripture that shows any activity of him until after his birth on this earth.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

     

    #869755
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    There is not a single scripture that shows any activity of him until after his birth on this earth.

    Gene, you are wrong.
    John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
    Before Abraham was (past tense), Jesus is (present tense). Jesus was claiming pre-existence.
    Notice Jesus didn’t say, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I was in the plan of God.”

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