John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,021 through 22,040 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #869785
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    ONCE AGAIN YOU SEE ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE BIBLICAL FACTS (THE SECOND) AND YOU NEGLECT THE FIRST WITHOUT WHICH THE SECOND (THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST) MAY NOT SENSE.

    #869787
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @berean

    I agree with you.

    They only see one part of the story.

    #869788
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    If you APPLY the passages I just gave to you that you IGNORE, to that of Philippians 2, maybe you could realize how your private interpretation is not just bogus but so destructive to the significant truth Paul gives in that chapter.

    Likewise, when you IGNORE scripture that directly tells you when and how Jesus of Nazareth became anointed (Christos) you will not ever come close to the truth. You and others can’t even seem to admit that there are other Messiahs/Christos spoken of in scripture, those who are anointed by YHVH where through His Spirit they carry out acts of His will and/or are consecrated to be a king, a priest, or a prophet.

    Moreover, when the Spirit of YHVH is upon you at measure in that measure you are an image of Him, and if you have the fullness of the Spirit dwelling in you all the more you are in the image of YHVH existing in the form of Him.

    John 12: 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Berean, you choose to not even consider so many scriptures and the understanding that they are directly giving you.

    John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh THE WORDS of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    WHY is seeing Jesus seeing him who sent Jesus? Because Jesus received the fullness of the Spirit just as was prophesied, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge as well as the powers of YHVH’s Spirit that can heal the sick and perform all manner of signs and miracles. Not only this but above all Jesus was humbled to not use those gifts according to his own will, they were used to do YHVH’s works alone, which is exactly why Jesus said what he did in John 12:45. Such has EVERYTHING to do with Philippians 2 where you APPLY WHO it is that Paul is speaking to, those who have fellowship of the Spirit, those sent out just as Jesus was sent out into the world. Those not of the world as Jesus was not of the world.

    Philippians 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    The mind of the ANOINED JESUS who was in the form of God having the Spirit of God without measure, was to give all glory to God, no vainglory. The mind of the anointed Jesus was doing things out of love for his brethren. Paul is teaching to those also sent out into the world to be like minded with him in this manner.

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    This passages is not speaking of a pre-existing spirit being, it is speaking of the mind of the man who was anointed (Christos) with the fullness of the Spirit who thus was existing in the form of God. He was sent into the wilderness to be tested, to be humbled, where he did indeed find himself in the fashion of a man with his weak flesh that hungered. He came out of the wilderness and was a faithful servant obedient even unto his death.

    The anointed Jesus was an example and those following in his footsteps preaching the word, performing miracles and giving prophecy with the Spirit upon them were going to be persecuted just as he was. If they were like minded with the anointed Jesus they too would receive glory.

    Revelation 2: 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    Berean, it is just complete DESTRUCTION, your private interpretation you give to a passage in Philippians 2, where you disregard the sum to that which the bible teaches and use the passage to speak what is in fact antichrist. God’s words spoken by Paul was to make Jesus a human example to give fellow brethren in the fellowship of the Spirit strength and hope for perseverance so that they too could receive the crown of life.  They were to have the mind of the anointed Jesus of Nazareth, not follow vainglory but do all things to the glory of God and fellow man.

     

    #869789
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    That promise we read from Isaiah (11, 42, 45, 46, 61) where a son of man is anointed with God’s Spirit and sent out into the world to be our savior.

    RAISED unto Israel a Savior Jesus,

    Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    YHVH made heaven and earth ALONE, He made man. Jesus was a man to whom YHVH raised up in righteousness begetting him of the Spirit without measure so that He could direct all his ways sending him out to become our savior. He was in the form of YHVH where as Jesus taught in John 12, that seeing him was actually seeing God, for all that Jesus did and spoke was God’s work not his own. 

    #869790
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Jodi, I do believe that Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of His Father Yahweh God.
    The Bible clearly says Luke 4:18
    “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO BRING GOOD NEWS TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

    So, what’s your point?

    God bless,

    Danny

    #869791
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    I DO NOT HAVE A PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, I HAVE THE INTERPRETATION THAT GOD GIVES TO HIS CHILDREN
    … WHEN WILL YOU BECOME WISE AND LISTEN TO WHAT GOD IS TELLING YOU IN HIS WORD?

    #869792
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    Do you realize that while you believe that Jesus came from God the Father implanting Mary supernaturally by the means of artificial insemination of David’s sperm, Jodi believes that Mary was implanted supernaturally by the means of artificial insemination of Joseph’s sperm, from what I can make out of what she wrote anyway. You believe that Jesus is not the biological son of Joseph, she does.

    Neither is correct.

    #869793
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    This verse you use is about Cyrus, not the Messiah.

    Isaiah 45:12 It is I who made the earth and created man upon it. It was My hands that stretched out the heavens, and I ordained all their host. 13I will raise up Cyrus in righteousness, and I will make all his ways straight. He will rebuild My city and set My exiles free, but not for payment or reward, says the LORD of Hosts.”

    LU

    #869794
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi To all AND God bless

     

    #869795
    Lightenup
    Participant

    That is sweet, thanks Berean!

    #869796
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU 

    Hallelujah

    #869810
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……..“there ain’t nothing in this world worth a solitary dime but,  old dogs, children, and watermelon wine” … according to the song , by Tom T Hall.

    This is the way I believe we get true peace, as written in scriptures,  “the LORD bless you, and keep you, the LORD, make his face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, the LORD , lift up his countenance upon you, AND GIVE YOU “PEACE”. 

    peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

    #869811
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..Actually both are correct,  Joseph also carried  the DNA of king David , which is harder to believe, God Preserved DNA of king David himself or took it from David’s descendent, and placed it into Mary’s womb,   or as you people believe , God killed a PREEXISTING God if that were even possible,  “MORPHED” HIM into a human baby,  and placed him into a body of a human women, and waited 9 months and then caused him to be born in disguise, as a human being, but really was a PREEXISTING God .

    We know a human Sperm can be preserved and implanted later into a women, that is even done today, but “morphing” a being of some kind into a human being has never been done by God or man kind. There would be no point for God to even consider to do that , it would prove nothing to the human race ever, even if he did that anyway. Not to even mention it would not even fulfill all the prophesies written about him. You people turning Jesus into a God born from a human women is a lie>

    “Unto us (true believers). There is but “One” God,  “ONLY” and One Mediator between that ONE GOD and men, the “MAN” Jesus, the anointed human being.
    THE TRINITY DOCTRINE IS A PURE “LIE”, created by SATAN HIMSELF AND HIS FOLLOWERS.  2ths2  is exactly what you people have turned the “IMAGE” of  the “Man” Jesus into, and will suffer the results written there at his return by his own mouth. “REPENT”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #869813
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi To all

    1John 5:11-12
    [11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

     

    #869814
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Yes, Isaiah in chapter 45,  from the very first verse is speaking about the Messiah Cyrus.

    Regardless if you do not believe that the bible contains instances of dual fulfillment, the passage that I gave from Isaiah 45, it’s content therein, is spoken elsewhere where it is directly applied to the Messiah Jesus. 

    Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Matthew 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. 

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    The Messiah Cyrus – raised up in righteousness with YHVH directing all his ways delivering captives from Babylon captivity.

    The Messiah Jesus– called to righteousness with YHVH directing all his ways doing YHVH’s works in YHVH’s name delivering captives from sin and death unto eternal life.

     

     

    #869815
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said:

    …or as you people believe , God killed a PREEXISTING God if that were even possible,  “MORPHED” HIM into a human baby,  and placed him into a body of a human women, and waited 9 months and then caused him to be born in disguise, as a human being, but really was a PREEXISTING God .

    Gene, you have been here for probably over 10 years and if you believe that those believing in the pre-existence of the Son actually proclaim this:

    “God killed a PREEXISTING God if that were even possible,  “MORPHED” HIM into a human baby,  and placed him into a body of a human women, and waited 9 months and then caused him to be born in disguise, as a human being, but really was a PREEXISTING God,”

    YOU HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY IN ERROR AND QUITE CONFUSED!!!

    You might be happy to know that the pre-existent Son did not die in order to be brought forth into the womb of Mary. He merely emptied Himself of what was necessary in order to be put into the womb. I liken it to the spirit part of a human being which God places within the fertilized egg.

    I believe that the pre-existent Son was the spirit and soul part of the baby. The flesh part was the part that Mary gave to the baby, IMO.

    God bless you and keep you too! LU

     

    #869816
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    This passage is not referring to Jesus either:

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 

    Blessings, LU

    #869817
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Can you explain speaking directly to the context of Matthew 1 how it is NOT telling us that Jesus is a true son of Abraham and David through Joseph?

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation (GENESIS, source, origin, lineage, ancestry) Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Mathew says that he IS GIVIING US THE BOOK OF Jesus’s DNA showing how it is that he is a biological son of Abraham and David.

    2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; ….15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations (GENEA, fathered, begotten, of the samse stock) from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

    Matthew gave us the book, a book that says Jesus is biologically the son of Abraham and David through Joseph, and Joseph was the husband of Mary, to whom the child was born. 

    Now how is Mary going to be able to be found with child without her knowing Joseph first?

    Such a miracle (a sign to identify the great coming king of the house of David) could only be found if it was of the Holy Spirit.

    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    #869818
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    YHVH who is the unity of Father, Son and Spirit, created the world. In some contexts YHVH is more specifically the Father who by His power and outstretched Arm spread out the world. His outstretched Arm was the Son.

    John 12: 36…These things Jesus proclaimed, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many [p]signs in their sight, they still were not believing in Him. 38This happened so that the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke would be fulfilled: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WILL NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND [q]BE CONVERTED, AND SO I WILL NOT HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke about Him.

    YHVH alone, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, created the world. The Father within the unity, sends the Son to be the Messiah within the flesh of a human. The Father gives the Son who is clothed in flesh, His Spirit to lead him.

    I hope that helps, LU

    #869819
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You asked:

    Can you explain speaking directly to the context of Matthew 1 how it is NOT telling us that Jesus is a true son of Abraham and David through Joseph?

    Matthew has a pattern throughout the list of generations…so and so begat so and so…UNTIL the list comes to Joseph, then the pattern stops. It does not say or imply that Joseph begat Jesus. Instead, the pattern changes and emphasizes that Joseph was married to the woman of whom Jesus was born.

    15Eliud was the father of Eleazar,

    Eleazar the father of Matthan,

    Matthan the father of Jacob,

    16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary,

    of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Also, as I have pointed out to you months ago, “of whom” is written in the feminine pronoun and refers to Mary.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,021 through 22,040 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account