John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,861 through 21,880 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #869551
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..If you know how many time  you counterdict your own words , which proves you lack the Spritual understanding of scriptures, you make one statement after the otber then change then around to suit your false teachings.  Look Jesus said over 80 times he was a Son of (from) Mankind.  He also was a Son of God, because of the receiving of the Holy Spirit, at the Jordan river , there he was born again he was also born of  God the Fathe,  placing the semon of the  human  flesh of King David  in his mother Mary , that’s  when he  came into existence as a human being or for that matter any existence he ever had.

    He was not a preexisting being of any kind being  “Morphed”   into a flesh human being.  He was born again at the Jordan river after his baptism.   Just as he told us we must also be born again to. 

    You deceived  false teachers,  spend all your time trying to make Jesus appear different then his human brothers and sisters ,   you take the Glory that belongs to God the Father And place it on the man Jesus, the True servant and son of God also, just like all the Saints of God are, everyone who has the anointing Spirit of the living God in them “are now the sons of t b e living God , right “NOW” that is if you truly believe in what the scriptures say,  we “ARE” HEIRS AND JOINT HEIRS WITH JESUS,   who is the “FIRST” born of “MANY” BRETHREN.  ALL true believers have just “One” God, and it sure isn’t the man Jesus.  That is not to say God was not in him, nor us also who have his holy spirit in us.  All those who have the Seed “spirit” of God in them are sons of God. That is if you truly believe Jesus and the scriptures. ALL of them put together, not just a few here and there, but all of them. 

    All those lead by the Spirit of the truth see things alike, that how I know you are not of the truth Carmel. If you were of the truth you would hear the truth, just like Jesus does  and said,  those who have ears to hear let him hear what the SPIRIT” SAYS ,  unto the Churches,”

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #869552
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Thanks for the welcome back! I think it’s been a few months that I’ve been gone but it seems like discussions are right where I left off.

    #869553
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Gene, you always say Jesus was a man.
    Well, I agree. Jesus was a man here on earth.
    He was not a ghost with a human shell.
    John 1:14 “The Word became flesh – man
    What is your point?

    God bless,

    Danny

    #869554
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    Here is LU’s post to you:


    @Proclaimer

    Welcome back, I hope you had a nice break.

    I’m pasting an unanswered post of mine to you, asked originally on January 9th or thereabouts.

    Hebrews 1

    O Lord,

    You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    This OT passage gives further witness to that here:

    Compare with Psalm 102

    24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
    Your years are throughout all generations.

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
    And all of them will wear out like a garment;
    Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

    27“But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.

    PC, who is the Father identifying as the YHVH who founded the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands?

    LU

    #869555
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh THE WORDS of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    Isaiah 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 

    Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began

    Our “ONE God, the Father” SPOKE by the mouth of the prophets since the world began regarding raising up a horn of salvation from the house of David. This man, by GOD’S WORD that HE DECLARED FROM THE BEGINNING, would execute God’s purpose upon receiving God’s Spirit.

    The WORD from the beginning was salvation unto eternal life that would come through a man executing God’s purpose to bring forth that salvation unto eternal life.

    Without this WORD of salvation unto eternal life and the man within the WORD from the beginning who would fulfill it, nothing would have been made that was made. All things created were created by reason of this man and for this man (1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.)

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    1 John 2:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    In seeing Jesus resurrected a man of flesh and bones, they knew that THE WORD of God from the beginning regarding their own promise of eternal life was TRUE.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    In the beginning was the Word (eternal life), and the Word (eternal life) was with God, and the Word (eternal life) was God as God through His Spirit brings life. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made because of him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 

    him, is the man of God’s WORD spoken by God from the beginning who would come and fulfill God’s WORD of bringing forth eternal life.

     

     

     

     

    #869556
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Hi Jodi, The Word in John 1 is Jesus Christ.

    “The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14

    God bless,

    Danny

    #869557
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    “The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14

    My understanding to the above passage is this,

    YHVH spoke to the prophet Isaiah where The Word given was that the son of Jesse would receive YHVH’s Spirit, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for YHVH. This is the glory that the people beheld as this Word was made true in the flesh of Jesus, where upon receiving the Spirit not by measure he was sent out into the world.

    We are told in the beginning of Luke 4 that Jesus left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit and also Jesus later in the chapter reveals that The Word of God given to the prophet Isaiah was indeed made true in him, a man of flesh.

    Jesus received the Spirit without measure for the purpose of being sent out to declare the truth where he did so with grace and the people beheld his glory as he likewise through the Spirit that was upon him, performed all manner of signs and miracles!

    John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh THE WORDS of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    At the river Jordan Jesus was born of the Spirit. He was the only mortal man to receive the Spirit not by measure, thus he can rightfully be called God’s only begotten Son.

    When the Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove God declared at that very moment, “Thou art my beloved Son”. This is because Jesus was begotten of God’s Spirit.

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    I identify Jesus as God’s Son because the Spirit descended and remained upon him.

    #869558
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…..Again you take liberties to change some scriptures to meet your false teachings,

    ME:Gene PRODUCE AT LEAST ONE NOT JUST SAY SO PLEASE!

      your not taking into consideration all the scriptures that counterdict  your teachings. 

    AGAIN PRODUCE AT LEAST ONE SCRIPTURE  AND JUSTIFY YOURSELF PLEASE!

    Why not just take one thin at a time for a change and let’s talk about that,

    WHY NOT PICK ONE SENTENCE AND CONTRADICT ME USING SCRIPTURE?

    Peace and love i Jesus Christ

    #869559
    Berean
    Participant

    JODY

    REVELATION 19 GIVE IDENTITY OF “THE WORD”

    THIS IS JESUS CHRIST

    HIS VESTURE WAS DIPPED IN THE BLOOD ….

    REVELATION 1

    Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

     

    #869560
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    “his name is called The Word of God” does not prove “The Word” from John 1:1 must then be Jesus.

    The fact of the matter is, we can read multiple scriptures that say, “THE WORD” as well as multiple scriptures that say, “THE WORD OF GOD”, where they represent different truths, different declarations, and different promises.

    The Word is that which our ONE God the Father SPEAKS, and that which is SPOKEN cannot be undone, for THE WORD OF GOD IS THE ALL POWERFUL SPIRIT of our ONE God the Father.

    Isaiah 49:
    1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 

    2 Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 

    Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 

    Acts 2:32-33This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and  he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 

    Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called  The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 

    Berean, Jesus being given a name called “The Word of God” has everything to do with him being the son of Jesse whom God promised to rest his Spirit upon, and by that Spirit out of the mouth of Jesus comes a sword, “the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”

     

    #869562
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    REVELATION 19.13 IS VERY CLEAR
    IT IS ABOUT JESUS CHRIST
    AS FOR JEAN 1
    WHAT YOU SAY DOESN’T COME FROM TRUE GOD.

    #869563
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……What Jodi has written is apsolutely right,  she produced the actual scriptures that back up ever thing she has posted ,  it’s not her your are rejecting,   it’s the very words of the scriptures she quoted to you.

    God’s words are “his words”, Just as your words are your words only, and no one else’s.  SO it is with our “only” true God,  his Words Are His “Alone”, no matter who Quotes them to us,  whether it’s a prophet,  or Jesus his son, or even you or I,  no one can claim them as there “own” words,  not even Jesus, that is why He said in revelations , “to him that has ears to hear let him hear what the “SPIRIT” is saying to the Churches”.   Didn’t you notice he did not say what “I”  am saying to the churches did he? 

    Hebrew’s plainly tell us that “God “SPOKE”  in times past unto us through the prophets, has in these latter days spoken unto us “Through” a Son.  It was the same God Speaking “through” both the prophets and the son.  So neither the prophets nor the Son was God, nor his Word, themselves. They were messengers GOD WAS SPEAKING THROUGH, by his “Anointing Spirit” that was in them.  

    Jesus “clearly said this, “the WORDS, I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him that sent me. 

    When are you going to actually believe what Jesus himself and scripture says,  Berean?  Did not Jesus clearly say , “MANY” will come and said I am the Christ and “DECEIVE MANY”. One of the big deceptions is that Jesus “himself” is the word of God,  that is just one of them , and that Jesus “is” God , and that he “prexisted” his birth on this earth , are just a few more big deceptions , the apostate churches have come up with.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #869564
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    Yes Rev 19:13 is about Jesus Christ and in my post I made that very clear.

    My point with the scriptures I gave was that Jesus being given a name that is called “The Word of God”, has everything to do with the verses that come directly after verse 13, specifically verse 15. So in other words, we are given what his name is called, directly relates to.

    You are not the only one who has pulled verse 13 out from it’s surrounding context and said, look here this verse tells us “The Word” in John 1:1 is Jesus.

    Now if you want to take verses 13-15 and show how they together relate to John 1:1 then go right ahead.

    However any attempt to do so just creates contradiction making the bible a work of confusion.

    The scriptures I gave, Isaiah 11 and 49, show that Jesus was not in the beginning as The Word, as he didn’t even exist in the beginning for he was formed (yatsar- created) from his mother’s womb, where The Word of God in prophecy says that he was going to come from the seed of Jesse.

    What is inarguable is that we have many scriptures that directly tell us that Jesus was most definitely IN THE WORD OF GOD from the beginning.

     

    #869565
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Revelation was written Before epistols AND gospel OF John.

    So In Revelation19 :13 Jésus IS CALLED” THE WORD OF GOD”

    AND IN JOHN 1 HE IS CALLED :” THE WORD”

    JESUS, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD IS THE FIRST ONE CHANNEL BY WHOM GOD SPOK AND CREATED THE     WORLD.

    HE IS ALL THAT THE FATHER IS

    THEY ARE ONE IN TWO PERSONS

     

     

    #869566
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All, 

    As said prior, the fact of the matter is, we can read multiple scriptures that say, “THE WORD” as well as multiple scriptures that say, “THE WORD OF GOD”, where they represent different truths, different declarations, and different promises.

    Our ONE God the Father’s Spirit is All Powerful and through His Word His Power, His Truth, His Declarations and His Promises are revealed. 

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    Our Father gave The Word of life, a promise unto mankind of eternal life, even before the world began. The Word was made true unto the people who saw and handled Jesus when he rose from the dead. This gave them hope and faith in God for The Word was that Jesus would be a firstborn of many brethren.

    Also The Word of God tells us that the son of Jesse who receives God’s Spirit would be for a light unto man, where this light would preach the Gospel and all who believed would be saved.

    John 1 is about The Word of Eternal Life that was with our ONE God the Father from the beginning, where God Himself is the power behind that life.

    John 1 is about The Word of God made true in the flesh where a son of Jesse was begotten of God’s Spirit and was sent out into the world to be for a light unto man, to make Sons of God. Without this light nothing would have been made that was made, all things were created by reason of this light. The people beheld his glory as he preached the truth that saved souls and as he performed mighty miraculous deeds through the Spirit that abode within him. God declared from the beginning a man who would come and execute The Word of Life that was also declared from the beginning. 

     

    #869567
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Hi Jodi, Who came in the flesh?

    words or Jesus Christ?

    Jesus came in the flesh and “is” still coming in the flesh today. Christ in you the hope of glory (Col 1:27).

    1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

    John uses the perfect tense here in Greek, meaning past action with continuing results in the present.

    #869568
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    I hope you are well 🙂

    Regarding 1 John 2:23

    Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

    From what I understand of your beliefs, you deny that there was a Son of God that existed in a living way in the image of his father, before creation.

    It seems that you believe that the Son of God merely existed as a plan of God before creation and not as a living son.

    Is that correct?

    If that is true, you believe that there was a time when God was not a father. The plan to have a child does not make one a father. My 5 year old granddaughter plans to have a child someday but she is not a mother just because she plans on it. Surely you can agree to that??

    Blessings, LU

     

    #869569
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said:

    Mary being the only women God had sex with that brought forth the “only begotten of God”, by God himself  in the womb of a women.

    Gene, did you really mean to claim that God had sex with Mary?

    A begetting is not always sexual Gene. It can be asexual, it can also be figurative.  It can also mean “brought forth” from one place to another.

    For instance, according to what you say here:

    The word “begotten” expresses a direct sexual action taken by someone through a sexual union taken in the womb of a female.

    Consider this:

    “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”?

    According to you, did God “have sex with” a woman to make the firstborn from the dead?

    Btw, the word “begotten” doesn’t mean “conceived” either.

    LU

    #869570
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all

    God IS Love(Agapé)

    #869571
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks Berean, that’s beautiful and so calming.

    Enjoy your weekend,

    LU

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