John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,841 through 21,860 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #869520
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    I beleive That : The Father called the Son to rise AND the Saviour came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself. Now was proved the truth of His words, “I lay down My life, that I might take it again…. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” Now was fulfilled the prophecy He had spoken to the priests and rulers, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” John 10:17, 18; 2:19.

    Only He who is one with God could say, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death.

     

    #869522
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Berean and Carmel,

    The ascension that Jesus speaks about when he says that he will raise himself up on the third day, IMO,  is this one:

    John 20:17

    Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’

    Any thoughts?

    Enjoy your day,

    LU

    #869523
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. …..Jesus did not raise himself from the dead, Many scriptures say that God the Father raised him from the grave.  If Jesus was able to raise himself from the dead then he really never truly died.  Because scripture tell us that when a person dies their thoughts parish, the dead know nothing.

    So if we say Jesus didn’t truly die, aren’t  we making him out to be a liar? , and he then didn’t truly die for our sins either, right? It was all a fake then right?

    I believe his was “TRULY” DEAD, and it was God the Father that raised him back to life again.

    Just like Rom 8: 11 says.

    Many other scriptures say that God the Father did raise him from the dead also. If you would like I can quote them for you.

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #869524
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..A father alway exists before his Son does right?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #869525
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…….What I don’t understand, is why do you want to always make Jesus to always appear different then we are? What’s your points in doing that?

    Peace and love to you and your. ………gene

    #869526
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You asked:

    Lu…..A father alway exists before his Son does right?

    No, that’s not right. Up until the moment of conception, the one about to be a father is not a father yet unless he has already had his first child.

    One has to have, at the very least, a developing living fetus offspring in existence in order to truly be a father in the biological sense.

    God bless you Gene,

    LU

    #869527
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    John 10:18

    No man taketh it (Jesus’s live) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

     

    The Father called the Son to arise, and by his divinity Jesus raised up his dead body (to give life again).HE OBEYED TO HIS FATHER:

     

    #869530
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless all

     

    #869531
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: If Jesus was able to raise himself from the dead then he really never truly died.  Because scripture tell us that when a person dies their thoughts parish, the dead know nothing.

    Gene, you put God in the same basket of humans!

    Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking on them, saith: With men it is impossible; but not with God:

    for all things are possible with God.

    Read hereunder and just tell me what this scripture confirms!

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust:

    that he might offer us to God, (BEGOTTEN)

    being put to death indeed in the FLESH,

    but enlivened in the SPIRIT,

    19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 

    The above Gene CLEARLY declares that

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE, 

    DIED FOR SURE BUT ALSO FOR SURE IN THE SAME INSTANCE,

    HE NOT ONLY DIDN’T  LOOSE ANYTHING OF HIS FLESH, well clear in

    John 6:39Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in 

    THE LAST DAY. ( ON THE CROSS )

    BUT HE GLORIFIED IT INTO ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, AT HIS DISPOSITION  WITH

    THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE IN

    JESUS CHRIST  John4:36-37, John 13;31-32. John 17:1,

    GODMAN

    JESUS SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH TO THE EXTENT THAT DESPITE

    AS A CRIMINAL HE WAS TAKEN BY SATAN TO HELL, HE PREACHED HIS GOSPEL IN THE MIDST OF HELLFIRE, (MOSES’ BURNING BUSH  NOT BEING CONSUMED) GLORIFIED IN HIS FLESH BODY AND FREED ALL THOSE SOULS (SPIRITUALLY DEAD) ENSLAVED FROM THE TIME OF ADAM’S FALL!

    THE FACT THAT MANY SAINTS CAME OUT OF THEIR GRAVES!

    Gene get this into your mind that Jesus on His DEATH glorified

    GODMAN! 1John5:20

    He became not only the sole sovereign overall but also the most powerful ever and  by His own unique power He raised His own dead body, not for His own sake, but for the human race sake!

    Jesus was already glorified and preached His Gospel in hell as

    JESUS CHRIST,

    John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead (spiritually dead in hell)  shall hear the voice of the Son of God,(preaching the gospel) and they that hear shall live.

    Well mentioned in

    John10:27My sheep HEAR MY VOICE:(WHEN HE PREACHED HIS GOSPEL IN HELL) and I know them, and they follow me. 28And I give them LIFE EVERLASTING; (FREED FROM HELLFIRE)  and they shall NOT PERISH forever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.

    I repeat Jesus Christ raised His own dead body

    FOR THE HUMAN RACE SAKE!

    HE GAVE  His dead body to the human race, well mentioned in

    1Peter 3;18 above…..that he might offer us to God, (BEGOTTEN)…..

    Also mentioned by Jesus in His last supper:

    Eat this is my body which is GIVEN for you……

    Now to the scripture:

    John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life:

    so the Son also giveth life TO WHOM HE WILL.

    From the above declaration,

    Jesus Christ

    THE SON OF GOD,

    GLORIFIED GODMAN ON THE CROSS,

    resurrected the entire human race all embodied in JESUS’ DEAD BODY,

    THE SON OF MAN

    PRECISELY by His own spirit, Mentioned in

    Luke 23:46 And Jesus crying out with a loud voice, said: Father,

    into thy hands I commend MY SPIRIT. ( SLAIN LIKE A LAMB…….Rev. 13:8)

    And saying this, he gave up THE GHOST. (JESUS DIVINE NATURE)

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #869537
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……You have added you thoughts to the scriptures,  I would have to take every thing you have left off, and explain it to you. This is just a few.

    GODMAN……not one scripture called Jesus a Godman.

    My sheep hear my voice,  why?,  because they have the Spirit of truth “in” them the same as Jesus did and that is why they can know the voice of the Spirit speaking in and through him. THAT SPIRIT WAS IN the  Son of man,  Jesus also, that is why Jesus said that “HE” (God would take of mine) and give it unto you,  SAME SPIRIT OF TRUTH,  JESUS WAS ANOINTED WITH given  from God the Father, GIVEN BY THE  “ONE” God, IS ALSO GIVEN BY THE SAME GOD given to the Saints.  EXACTLY AS IT WAS GIVEN TO JESUS, ANOTHER SON OF MANKIND, WHO ARE ALL SONS OF THE LIVING GOD, BY THAT VERY PROCESS. Jesus never said “He” GAVE THE SPIRIT TO ANYONE, NOT EVEN TO HIMSELF.   Why do you think he said “he of himself could do “nothing”,  you make Jesus out to be able to do anything by himself , but scripture disagree with you in many places.  Jesus even told us this “no man “Could” come unto him, “UNLESS” THE FATHER DRAW HIM.”  WHY would he say that if he could do anything himself?   If Jesus was so different then we are , why would he even say , “he that believes in me, “greater works then I do, shall he do, because I go to the Father”.  how shall we do greater work then he did? If what you preach is true?

    This is how I know you are not of the truth , it’s because you teaching does not aline with what Jesus himself said.  You make Jesus out to be your very God, something Jesus never told us to do. We are to believe the word of God that the Spirit was speaking through , but that is a far cry from saying he is the author of those word himself,  espically when he himself said this,  “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORD, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM THAT SENT ME. Again , “him that has ears to hear let him hear what the SPIRIT SAYS UNTO THE CHURCHES” . EVEN IN THAT STATEMENT Jesus is showing us clearly he is not t he source of those word , but the Spirit of God was,  God is a Spirit and speaks directly through his prophets, and that includes Jesus also, but none of that makes the prophets, them or Jesus,  or us who also have the  earnest of the Spirit that understand the voice of the spirit,  a God.  GOD IS A SPIRIT AND CAN INDWELL ALL AND BE IN ALL AT THE SAME TIME.   If you truly believed Jesus, and what he said, you would know this, that is why it is aperant to me you are not of the Spirit, or you would know these things  , making Jesus into your God, is a sin and a transgression of the first commandment of God the Father, “you shall have no other God besides me”.   Any one who changes the “image” of the man Jesus, into a God is committing Idolatry.  2 the 2,  is exactly what you are doing with the Son of Man  and it will be Jesus himself out of his own mouth that will destroy all t b see false teachings at his return,  Just as 2ths 2 says he will. That man of Sin there is who you preach as your  God. SOMETHING JESUS NEVER DID. 

    There are many more errors in what you are saying and adding false thoughts to , but it would take too long Carmel , no to go through each of them, perhaps if you would center on one thing at a time it would be easier for everyone.

    Peace and love to you and your. ……….gene

     

    #869538
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu….I know what you are trying to say,  but , no matter what you say, a Father always premises his Son,  God told Abraham he would be the Father of many nations, “would be”, not that he already was.  But scripture says that “Levi paid tithes  through Abraham , because he was in the bowel of Abraham , when Abraham paid tithes, to Melkisadic.,  but was Levi actually alive did he himself actually do it ? No he was not even alive then. 

    Jesus though in the plan and will of God the Father was not alive ,until his berth on this earth either, even though he was in the plan and will of God.

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

    #869539
    Berean
    Participant

    Christ above all law.
    The Son of God came willingly to carry out the work of the atonement. No yoke
    obligatory rested on Him, for He was independent and above all law.
    Angels, as intelligent messengers of God, were under the yoke of obligation
    ; no self-sacrifice could make atonement for fallen man. Alone
    Christ Was Free from the Requirements of the Law to Undertake the Redemption of the Race
    sinful. He had the power to lay down His life to take it back. “Existing in the form of
    God, [He] did not regard it as a prey to be snatched from being equal with God “(SW 4/9/1906).

    #869540
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    GODMAN……not one scripture called Jesus a Godman

    ME: There are many truths that scripture never CLEARLY produced?

    For instance that JESUS ATE HIS OWN BODY and drank HIS OWN BLOOD in the last supper!

    That Jesus IN ONE INSTANCE was both DEAD on the cross and in His tomb and ALIVE IN HELL preaching His Gospel!

    That Jesus resurrected His own dead body!

    That Jesus spiritualized His flesh body before His passion and was ready to be sacrificed in order to return to the Father as

    A SPIRIT glorified in FLESH!

    That Jesus all the time He was on earth as a human He still remained also in Heaven as a spirit.

     

    Now, that Jesus is MAN we all accept. NO? Though you don’t accept the fact that He is not of the world. Despite Jesus’ own words!

    That Jesus is God the majority of Christians accept. NO?

    That means that Jesus for the majority of Christians is

    both God and MAN or in short

    GODMAN! NO? You tell me the difference!

    You don’t even accept that Jesus came forth from the Father despite asserted in scripture! Read the scripture hereunder:

    John16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that

    I came out from God. 

    28I came forth from the Father,

    and am come INTO the world: again I leave the world, and I go to the Father.

     

    Read now hereunder the scriptures that declare Jesus is God. 

    Isaiah 9:6For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor,

    God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

    7His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace:

    he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom;

    to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son:

    Thy throne, O God,

    is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of THY KINGDOM.

    9Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity:

    THEREFORE GOD,

    thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Isaiah 45:14Thus saith the Lord: 

    The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee,

    and shall be thine:

    they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles:

    and they shall worship thee,

    and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God,

    the God of Israel THE SAVIOUR

    1John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his TRUE SON

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ASCEND TO (THE STATE AND GLORY) my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    John16:15 ALL THINGS  whatsoever the Father hath, (GOD and FATHER)

    are mine….(JESUS IS ALSO GOD and FATHER)

    I hope that you produce scripture that declares Jesus is not God!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #869541
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless

    #869542
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You said:

    Lu….I know what you are trying to say,  but , no matter what you say, a Father always premises his Son,  God told Abraham he would be the Father of many nations, “would be”, not that he already was.

    I think what you are trying to say is that the person who will be a father to his future son, will have already existed as a person before his son comes into existence. In that I would agree when you are referring to normal sexual reproduction.

    The difference is that the Son did not come from normal sexual reproduction when he was born before creation. There was no sex involved (there was no sex involved when He came into Mary either but that is a whole different scenario to discuss at another time). Therefore, the Son, as a distinct mindful being, came from an asexual reproductive process obviously, since He didn’t come from a sexual reproductive process. Whatever that looked like, I don’t claim to know. However, I do believe that the Son is identified as YHVH which represents eternally existence, but how can the Son have eternal existence and also be a Son of an eternally existent being and not merely a co-partner per se?

    That is a million dollar question and I have found an example in creation that shows how that can be. For example, in the very first generation of a specific type of cell that asexually reproduces, it is possible for the parent and offspring to contain essence that is not only identical but also of the same age. In that instance, the one that was to have a son, always had what went into the son, within himself the whole time. Therefore the essence that was in the parent was the same age as the essence that came to be in the son as well. Voila’ the parent and son can both claim the eternal existence in some manner. In other words, the Son was always existent within the Father in some manner even if it is just in essence. There was never a time when the essence of the Son did not exist, as I understand it.

    In summary, we cannot sufficiently compare the offspring from sexual reproduction to the offspring from asexual reproduction. Also, if it is possible in a created cell to have a parent and offspring share identical essence that has always existed, they both have eternal existence in some manner. 

    Here is my diagram again of this asexual reproduction that demonstrates that the stuff inside the cell in the first phase, becomes the stuff inside both cells in the later phases. To be clear, the stuff that ends up in the two cells on the right, existed within the first cell on the left.

    Screen Shot 2021-01-15 at 9.54.26 PM

     

    I know that is a deep thought exercise but it is interesting to think through if you give it a chance.

    Enjoy, LU

     

    #869545
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu….we all came from one source and that is God, remember what Jesus said? ,  “call no man your Father on earth , because one is you Father , who is in heaven”.   So we like Jesus can say God is indeed our Father also, just like he was his Father.

    Adam and ever were not from any human parents, and is not Adam called in scripture “the son of God”?  You say Jesus was not produced through sex, I say you are wrong he was produced through sex, in fact he was the “only one”  that God himself ,  did produce through a sexual encounter.  The word “begotten” expresses a direct sexual action taken by someone through a sexual union taken in the womb of a female.

    Mary being the only women God had sex with that brought forth the “only begotten of God”, by God himself  in the womb of a women. NO OTHER HUMAN  WOMEN DID God himself plant a human seed in, but her, and therefore he a human being was the “only begotten” (flesh born son of God)  no other human can claim that, even though we all are Fathered by God, through his  creation of   our gennetic code and placing that in our first parents Adam and Eve , who started the whole process of giving berth. 

    The actual first “BORN” human was Cain then Able the Seth, and so forth.  But the actual Father of us all is God the Father, because we all came into being because of him. That is why Jesus said call no man your Father on earth , for one is your Father who is in heaven.

    That is exactly Why Jesus alway started his prayerson with Father,  and would say “our” Father who art in heaven mm or “your Father in heaven knows you have need of these  things”.etc.

    But Jesus himself was directly Fathered by God implanting The seed that came from the Lions of  King David into Mary womb .  He was unique in all humanity, because of God the Father himself giving him berth through a women directly himself delevering to him his DNA from the loins of King DAVID, just as Jesus said , that he was the root and offspring of David,

    Do you see how all prophesy was fulfilled, the promise by God to King David the of his seed a ruler would come to sit on his throne for ever, and also what all the other prophets said  came true.

    The only way those things to come true was if God took the DNA of KING DAVID, and plant them into the womb of Mary, and that is exactly what he did do. Jesus certainly did have a Spica relationship with God , coming from the “only” women the Eternal God  himself had sexual relations with, when his Spirit overshadowed her. 

    In conclusion,  Jesus was indeed the “ONLY” HUMAN BEING , that was truly “BEGOTTEN” by a direct sexual experience by God the Father through a human women.  THAT does make him unique in humanity . But it does not make him a preexisting being of anykind,  but indeed unique. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #869546
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..Again you take liberties to change some scriptures to meet your false teachings,  your not taking into consideration all the scriptures that counterdict  your teachings.  Jesus never one time ever said he was a God, nor that he prexisted his birth on this earth, not a single scripture shows any activity of him before his birth on this earth, no so much as one.

    Why not just take one thin at a time for a change and let’s talk about that, Instead of mixing everything up, all the time,  that shows poor scholarship in my opinion, and you lack of true knowledge.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

     

    #869547
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: My sheep hear my voice,  why?,  because they have the Spirit of truth “in” them the same as Jesus did and that is why they can know the voice of the Spirit speaking in and through him. 

    Gene you are completely confused and lost in your CARNAL MENTALITY:

    Jesus sent the spirit of truth on Pentecost! Fifty days after

    HE DIED/GLORIFIED GODMAN ON THE CROSS! John13:31-32. Johm17:1 John 4:36-37

    Now read what I posted:

    John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh,

    and now is, when the dead  shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

    Gene, Jesus, THE SON OF GOD,  in the above meant that

    The hour came, obvious a clear reference to His

    DEATH/GLORIFICATION on the cross John13:31-32, John17:1, John4:36-37;

    When the dead, obvious again, SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN HELL,

    Shall hear the voice of

    THE SON OF GOD, obvious as well, a reference to those who accept his Gospel and shall LIVE,  obvious one more time, receive eternal life and freed from hellfire.

    My first question, ANSWER  please Gene: Why did Jesus mention the Son of God and not the Son of Man?

    OK Gene, Jesus preached the Gospel to all souls, TO HIS SHEEP, when He was in hell, that means, that THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH was not yet sent by Jesus Christ Godman, since He was still in hell.

    The spirit of truth was sent ON EARTH more than fifty days after, and to be received only on baptism after they believe in Jesus Christ and accept His Gospel.

    Now the above is also mentioned in

    1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust:

    that he might offer us to God, (BEGOTTEN)

    being put to death indeed in the FLESH,

    but enlivened in the SPIRIT,

    19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 

    OK Gene, Jesus THE SON OF MAN, THE WORD MADE FLESH, died in the FLESH and in the same instance HE GLORIFIED HIS FLESH IN THE SPIRIT, ONE SUBSTANCE WITH

    THE HOLY GHOST AS

    JESUS CHRIST

    Now let’s read again John 5:25 and the following 2 verses;

    John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of

    THE SON OF GOD, and they that hear shall live. John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27And he hath given him power to do judgment,

    attention Gene please:

    because he is

    THE SON OF MAN.

    Got it Gene?

    First Jesus mentioned the Son of God, glorified in the Holy Ghost, Jesus’ divine nature as

    Jesus Christ, on

    Jesus’ death, the Son of Man, Jesus’ human nature, and then emphatically confirmed that

    The Son of God is also the Son of Man.

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT INTEGRATEDN AS

    JESUS CHRIST

    Consequently, Jesus Christ was given the power to judge humanity!

    For the simple reason that Jesus is the only person of the deity who became FLESH  in all things like humans.

    Now Gene, in verse 26  THE SON has life in Himself,

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL: BECAUSE

    HE INTEGRATED WITH THE 

    HOLY GHOST THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT!

    THE FACT THAT

    JESUS SENT THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, THE PARACLETE, THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER!

    Now for the sake of truth and clarity especially for those who are still live on milk and more carnally minded, I hate to say it like you Gene, with very respect!

    Read the scripture which is a stumbling block for you:

    John16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that

    ATTENTION AGAIN PLEASE:

    I came out from God. 

    28I came forth from the Father,

    Got it Gene? NO YOU DON’T  with every respect to your CARNAL STATE!

    Jesus said I  CAME OUT FROM GOD, a clear reference to THE SON OF GOD in THE HOLY GHOST! The fact that Jesus is

    OF THE HOLY GHOST! Jesus’divine nature!

    Then He said:

    I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER! a clear reference to

    THE SON OF MAN! Jesus’human nature!

    PRECISELY

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH,

    the fact that the Son of Man is the

    SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER! Hebrews 1:3 and

    PROVIDED BY THE FATHER!

    LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!

    not an ordinary human being of earth!

    ONE MORE THING!

    The Holy Ghost Gene for the first time ON JESUS’ DEATH acquired A FLESH AND BLOOD BODY, precisely

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN!

    I repeat: They are not

    Two anymore but

    TWO IN ONE FLESH BODY!

    BOTH THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN, BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, BOTH HEAVENLY AND EARTHLY, BOTH INVISIBLE AND VISIBLE, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS.

    ONLY AT THE DISPOSITION OF

    JESUS CHRIST AS HE SEEMS FIT!

    Well clear in:

    Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood

    In the above, the Holy Ghost  PURCHASED the church of God with HIS OWN BLOOD!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #869549
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Those who are fathers existed before they became fathers.

    1 John 2:23 does not speak to that “if the Father does not exist, neither does the Son.”

    The passage is about ones faith and if you don’t believe in the Son then you don’t truthfully believe either in our “One God the Father”, because after all Jesus upon receiving the Spirit of the Father was sent out into the world as our One God the Father’s messenger. Jesus was sent to do the works of God carrying out God’s will, so without believing in Jesus you are not believing in our One God the Father.

    #869550
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi….apsolutely right. They just don’t get it. Good to see you back Jodi.

    Peace and love to you and yours…………gene

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