John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,821 through 21,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #869475
    Ed J
    Participant

    @edj

    There you go again.
    You think you are the only christian with the truth?
    Man, you are so puffed up with arrogance!

    Hi Danny,

    Why are you going out of your way to badmouth me?
    A man that has told you the truth!

    #869476
    Ed J
    Participant

    Man, you are so puffed up with arrogance!

    “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man
    beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and
    goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth
    therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work,
    this man shall be blessed in his deed.” (James 1:23-25)

    #869477
    Berean
    Participant

    Edj

    Hi Berean,

    Are you claiming: that Jesus fathered Himself?
    “Yes” or “No” ?
    Will you please answer my question 

     

    I GAVE YOU HEBREWS 1 AS ANSWER

    JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

    BEGOTTEN BY THE FATHER

    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

     

    #869478
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: This is not to even mention the many places that GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF SAID ,

    ” I AM GOD, and there is “NO” other GOD besides ME.  There is about ten places where God the Father said that in scripture. 

    ME: Yes Gene, but the truth is that God the Father HIMSELF never proclaimed that

    He is the ONLY TRUE GOD!

    Gene, it would be very interesting if you were to explain first

    WHY HE NEVER PROCLAIMED HIMSELF SO, and second,

    WHY ONLY JESUS DID PROCLAIM THE FATHER SO ON EARTH?

    Go ahead Gene, I, and others here would appreciate your perceptions.

    By the way, Gene,

    Read the scripture hereunder

    Isaiah 45:14

    Thus saith the Lord: (God the Father) The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine: they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles: and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.

    God the Father Himself in the above scripture did proclaim that

     JESUS IS GOD of Israel the saviour, and

    THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE JESUS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #869479
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj

    Hi Berean,

    Are you claiming: that Jesus fathered Himself?
    “Yes” or “No” ?
    Will you please answer my question

    No you didn’t, you answered your own question instead.
    Write a blog if you don’t want to address what others ask.

    Now will you please answer my question?

    “Yes” or “No”

    Keep in mind I have asked you this question 5 times now

    #869480
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Ed J, it is clear that his answer is “no,” but for some reason you can’t see that.

    #869481
    Berean
    Participant

    Edj

    Jesus did not begot himself
    It is the Father who begot him

    #869484
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……I will explain it to you , let’s see if you can understand it.

    The reason God the after never said he was the only God, is because the word GOD CAN APPLY TO ANYTHING THAT YOU TRUST IN FOR YOUR POWER.  The word GOD is a “descriptor” it’s any thing you trust in , your money, you government, your car, any leader , God is not a person it is the relation you have in something. That is why scriptures nearly always put it this way. “My God” , your God, the God of the HEBREWS, the God of the HITTITES, the God of this , or their God.  The word God is a “descriptor” describing your relation with something.

    The original word for God, found is the Hebrew “pictorial” language,  it was drawn as a head of an “OX” with a Shepard’s staff leaning into it.  What it meant was the “power” (represented by the OX, they , the Israelites trusted and leaned on for support like the  “shepherds staff”.

    You see God can truly be almost anything,  that represents the power you trust in. So the Gods of the pagans were idols, made up of wood , iron, stones, because that is what they trusted in for their powers. so there are many true Gods that exist for people everywhere.
    “BUT unto ‘us’ (the true believers) the is “ONE” GOD , his name is “YAHOVAH , and he said “You shall have no other God besides me”.  He is our God and Jesus’ God also.  We,  us and Jesus  put all of our hope and trust in his power to sustain us and resurrect us, and give us eternal life, he and he “ALONE” is “OUR” GOD. 

    You people on the other hand have made Jesus your God, but Jesus has made God the Father his God, I would advise,  you and everyone else do the same.  Remember Jesus’ words , “this is eternal life that they might know you, ” THE “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD”, and also know Jesus who he has sent.

    Hope this helped Carmel,  you see God is not the person or thing,  it is your “relationship” with something. The word God describes that relationship you have with it or him.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #869485
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @edj

    badmouthing? Hypocrite!
    You called me twice a liar.
    You said stop the lying!
    I did not lie.
    I was fair to you. I said that there are biblical scholars on both sides.
    But you insisted and provoked me. Only you would know the truth.
    You are not fair.

    #869486
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all

     

    God bless

    #869487
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Hope this helped Carmel,

    Gene read again what I asked you!

    ME: Yes Gene, but the truth is that God the Father HIMSELF never proclaimed that

    He is the ONLY TRUE GOD!

    Gene, it would be very interesting if you were to explain first

    WHY HE NEVER PROCLAIMED HIMSELF SO,( I mean TRUE)

    I repeat again:

    Gene, God the Father could never be in the position to proclaim himself as

    TRUE

    There’s nothing on earth that makes God the Father TRUE!

    NOT EVEN IN HEAVEN AT ONE STAGE!

    The fact that Lucifer took advantage of the situation and proclaimed himself to his angels that he is a God and he created them, simply as they were both subject to him and ONLY SAW HIM.  

    Then I also asked you:

    WHY ONLY JESUS DID PROCLAIM THE FATHER THE ONLY TRUE GOD ON EARTH?

    NOW READ AGAIN WHAT JESUS SAID:

    THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW YOU,….

    ANSWER Gene:

    WHAT DID JESUS DO SO THEY, ESPECIALLY THE FATHER’S ENEMIES 

    might know that the Father is the only TRUE God?

    OBVIOUS SOMETHING WHICH THE FATHER

    COULD NEVER DO!

    Gene, NO JESUS NO FATHER, NO FATHER NO JESUS!

    THEY ARE ONE GOD,

    NO ONE KNOWS WHO THE FATHER IS BUT THE SON, AND NO ONE KNOW WHO THE SON IS BUT THE FATHER….

    Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

    #869488
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Edj

    Jesus did not begot himself
    It is the Father who begot him

    DON’T RUSH TO CONCLUSIONS!

    REFLECT PLEASE:

    JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN FROM THE DEAD NO?

    JESUS RAISED HIMSELF UP NO?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #869489
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    REFLECT PLEASE:
    JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN FROM THE DEAD NO?
    JESUS RAISED HIMSELF UP NO?
    Me
    First Application : Hebrews 1

    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Second application

    Acts 13:33

    God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

     

    #869490
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Berean

    Yes…your video nailed it on the head. Where can I find that video? That has been my main message on here and this picture is something that I found to most closely represent the notion of something coming from eternal existence that results in both a Father and an offspring, see here:

    7DE6D9BC-833A-4831-9A0C-FC55BF4CF4AE

    Imagine this as a picture of the eternal essence going from one, into two, resulting in a Father and a son, both from eternal essence and both identical to each other.

    Blessings, LU

    #869491
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..did not Jesus say pray this way,  “Our” “Farther” who art in heaven?  When he used the term “OUR” was he not referring to himself also?  Not to even mention what Berean brought out. God the Father would have existed no matter if Jesus did or not . 

    Your logic is not only none scriptural,  but shows your destorted views and lack of true scriptural understanding IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #869492
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    What you said here is completely false:

    God the Father would have existed no matter if Jesus did or not .

    God would have existed no matter if the relationship of Father and Son existed or not. He would not have existed as “Father” though.

    Fyi, nothing else would have existed without that which eternally existed becoming the relationship of both the Father and Son.

    Think about it.

    Blessings, LU

     

    #869507
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…….please show scriptures that say that, I know not one that says the Father would not have existed without Jesus,  I think you have It backward. Truth is, Jesus or any things else would not have  existed without the  only true God, the father of all creation.  Remember scripture that says, “though hast made him a little lower then the Angels”.  Please us scriptures to defend your teachings. 

    Peace and love to you and your………gene

     

    #869509
    carmel
    Participant

     

    .

    #869510
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Hi Carmel

    REFLECT PLEASE:
    JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN FROM THE DEAD NO?
    JESUS RAISED HIMSELF UP NO?
    Me
    First Application : Hebrews 1
    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Second application

    Acts 13:33

    God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    ME: Berean, You produced two scriptures which are well known among all of us on heaven net.

    But the thing that not all of us know and accept is

    IT’S PROCESS IN THE ONENESS OF GOD!

    BY WHICH DEED GOD IS IN THE POSITION TO BILOCATE AND MULTIPLY HIMSELF AS MUCH AS HE FEELS FIT.

    Now to start with, in this post hereunder are scriptures associated with Jesus’

    resurrection, of which only the first one is directed to Jesus as

    the FIRST begotten of the dead

    Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,

    the first begotten of the dead,……

    John2:19 Jesus answered, and said to them:

    Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20The Jews then said: Six and forty years was this temple in building; and wilt thou raise it up in three days? 

    21But he spoke of the temple of his body.

    22When therefore he was risen again from the dead, his disciples remembered,

    that he had said this, and they believed the scripture, and the word that Jesus had said.

    John5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth:

    and GREATER works than these will he show him, that you

    MAY WONDER.

    21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life TO WHOM HE WILL.

    (EVEN TO HIMSELF)

    John10:18 Therefore doth the Father love me:

    because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 18No man taketh it away from me:

    but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again.

    This COMMANDMENT HAVE I RECEIVED OF MY FATHER.

    John 11:25 Jesus said to her:

    I am the resurrection and the life:

    he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:26 And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever. Believest thou this?

    Now  read this particular scripture please:

    1Peter3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust:

    that he might offer us to God,

    being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

    the above scripture reveals that “THE WORD” made flesh, Jesus, THE SON OF MAN, Jesus human nature,  not only annulled death on His death but also glorified in the Holy Ghost, Jesus divine nature as

    Jesus Christ 

    THE SON OF GOD,

    GODMAN.

    He preached His gospel and freed all those souls enslaved from Adam’s fall, asserted in

    John5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead (SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN HELL) shall hear the voice of

    the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

    Berean in the above scripture there’s enough evidence that

    Jesus Christ glorified in the

    HOLY GHOST, the SON OF GOD, Jesus divine nature,

    Godman on Jesus’ death resurrected

    Jesus’s dead body

    The SON OF MAN Jesus’ human nature

    the first begotten of the dead!

    More to come

    Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

    #869511
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    1 John 2:23

    Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

    If the Son does not exist, neither does the Father. The same is true that if the Father does not exist, neither does the Son.

    They must both exist, one does not exist apart from the other.

    Think about it.

    Be blessed, LU

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