John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,481 through 21,500 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #868041
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:Tell us Berean  why would a God,  need another God , to do the work ““IN” him. 

    If he were already a God?

    Me: Gene, THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR PROOF OF

    HOW A  CARNALLY MINDED PERSON YOU ARE!

    WHEN WILL YOU GET IT INTO YOUR CARNAL MIND THAT GOD IS NOT ONLY

    A GOD BUT ALSO 

     A SPIRIT!

    A SPIRIT Gene, REQUIRES A BODY IN ORDER TO PERFORM HIS WORK!

    NOW JESUS Gene, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT, IT’S YOUR PROBLEM WAS

    THE FIRST EVER EMBODIMENT OF GOD! 

    John 1:1 1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and

    the Word was God. 

    John1:14 And the Word was made flesh,

    and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth 

     John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

    THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE CLEARLY SAYS  THAT

    “THE WORD” WHICH WAS MADE FLESH, JESUS, WAS IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER

    BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    NOW, THAT PRECISELY WHAT JESUS WAS!!!

    GOD IS A SPIRIT, AND BEFORE HE STARTED PERFORMING ANYTHING

    HE ESTABLISHED

    HIS OWN FIRST EVER EMBODIMENT!

    HIS OWN FIRST EVER CARRIER! 

    PRECISELY JESUS CHRIST.

    BUT GOD WAS TOO POWERFUL AND NOT IN THE POSITION TO MANIFEST HIMSELF TO THE

    HEAVENLY REALMS AT LEAST FOR A PROBATION PERIOD!

    SIMPLY Gene,  AS  FIRST AND FOREMOST

    THROUGH THEIR OWN FREE WILL!!!

    THEY HAD TO ACCEPT GOD EVEN WITHOUT SEEING

    WHO AND WHAT HE IS! 

    THEY HAD TO PROVE THEIR TRUE GENUINE LOYALTY AND SUBMISSION TO

    THIS MYSTERIOUS GOD PRECISELY

    THROUGH THE PROCESS OF CREATION!

    NOW BEFORE  THIS PROBATION PERIOD EXPIRED,

    THE CREATION OF HEAVEN AND EARTH OF GENESIS 1:1

    LUCIFER, THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT, THE MORNING STAR!

    THE CARRIER OF

    THE LIGHT, precisely

    “THE WORD” JESUS, AS A SPIRIT IN HIS HEART, HIS LIFE SOURCE/ETERNAL LIFE.

    ALREADY FOR QUITE A LONG TIME, WITHIN A CONFLICT IN HIS HEART, THE ABODE OF GOD IN “THE WORD”

    HE, LUCIFER, LOVED WHAT HE CREATED, MORE THAN GOD, HIS CREATOR, THROUGH “THE WORD” WITHIN HIS HEART, FINALLY

    REBELLED!

    PRECISELY AGAINST HIMSELF,  GOD  “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, HIS LIFE SOURCE, ETERNAL LIFE!  

    Mark:3:26 And if Satan be risen up against himself,

    he is divided,

    and cannot stand, but hath an end.

    LUCIFER, SIMPLY AS HE WANTED TO SEE GOD AT ALL COSTS, ONCE HE REALIZED THAT GOD HAD A BODY! 

    PRECISELY 

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE UNIQUE EMBODIMENT OF 

    GOD!

    THERE WAS ONLY ONE WAY TO GET LUCIFER/SATAN, THE LOST SHEEP,

    THE PRODIGAL SON, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, BACK TO GOD, AND THAT WAS

    THAT GOD MUST BE BORN AS MAN ON EARTH AND MANIFEST HIMSELF

    THE TRUTH PRECISELY IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    JOHN17:5 And now glorify thou me, (ON EARTH)

    O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

    YOU: PLEASE Don’t give us this false  idea  he dumped all his GODLINESS,   to become a human so thats why he couldn’t use it garbage.

    ME WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FOR A CARNALLY MINDED PERSON LIKE 

    YOU Gene, WITH EVERT RESPECT!

    ALL POSSIBLE FOR GOD Gene!

    GOD IS EVEN HUMBLE IN JESUS,

    HE EMPTIED HIMSELF AND 

    ENRICHED THE ENTIRE CREATION WITH WHAT HE EMPTIED HIMSELF OF

    HIS SPIRIT! 

    OF WHICH HE HAS IN ABUNDANCE!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868042
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene and all

    When Jesus was born on this earth, the Spirit of God was already in him. This is why Jesus as a young child:

    increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.”

    When he came to be baptized by John, he had no sin on him, and he was not baptized for him, BUT FOR US.

    But he was wounded for our sins, Broken for our iniquities; The chastisement that gives us peace fell on him, And by his stripes we are healed.…

     

    Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor; He sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim deliverance to captives, And to the blind the recovery of sight, To set the oppressed free,

    …..”he who, insulted, did not return insults, mistreated, made no threats, but relied on one who judges righteously; 24He who himself bore our sins in his body on a tree, so that we may live to sins after being righteous; him by whose stripes you were healed. 25For you were like sheep that went astray. But now you have returned to the pastor and keeper of your souls

    #868046
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. …..You and Carmel ……put the “man” Jesus ahead of God himself, and you don’t even realize it. JESUS WORSHIPED GOD THE FATHER, AS HIS AND OUR GOD.  you have rejected the , GREAT COMMANDMENT,   “you shall love the LORD you God, with “ALL”  your heart , and “ALL” your might” ,   according to Jesus, this is the “GREATEST” COMMANDMENT.  and Our God also said this to us ,  “you shall have “NO OTHER”,  GOD besides me”.   

    How is it you people see fit to not believe Jesus, or what he said? , are you false teachers greater   then he is?

    You keep preaching Jesus as your God, which in fact he is “your” God,  but he is not my God,  nor did Jesus ever preach himself as God either.  He even denied that the  words he was telling us was even “HIS” words,  but you people peach him as your God and him himself  the word,  but then don’t believe what he himself said. To me I find  that amazing.

    You people,   who “make the “IMAGE”  OF “the man”, JESUS, as a God,  are making Jesus the man, out to be a “MAN OF SIN”    as 2ths2,  says.  

    What “human” being is “NOW”  SITTING, IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD and,  BEING DESPLAYED and WORSHIPPED AS A GOD?  IS IT NOT Jesus himself?  that you people preach not only as your God , but even the word of God itself .  YOUR,  false “IMAGE” you people have create about the “man” Jesus, he himself will destory when he returns , 2ths2.   it’s all there for those who have eyes to see. Time is short, repent! 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

     

    #868048
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..God’s word did come to reality,  his prophetic words he gave to the prophets, it was about the  “flesh” “man” Jesus,  It came into existence when the “man” Jesus was born.  GET IT, it is not saying Jesus “IS” “himself God’s words, he is the “fulfillment”  of what God said He was going to do, through the prophets.  “HIS” ACTUAL WORD , CAME TRUE,  IT “FULFILLED”, it was the “FLESH” MAN JESUS.  

    Why can’t you understand that Carmel,  and you call, Jodi and I , Carnel.  NO those who are carnal minded  and blind to the truth, are those who actually think Jesus “is”  God’s words “himself”,   now that’s both stupid and ignorant,  God was indeed “in” Jesus by his holy Spirit, telling him what to say to us, that is true, but that never made Jesus himself God’s word no more then God speaking through the Prophets made the prophets God’s word either.  GOD IS SPIRIT and can INDWELL any flesh he Choses to, and Speak through them, but none of that ever makes them a God nor his word . 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #868049
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    Did Jesus give in to temptation once, even in thought …..?
    Yes or no?
    Does he need him to be baptized for Him?
    Yes or no?

    #868051
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    Jesus has the same exact nature as his Father.

    He is not an inferior being to his Father any more than we are inferior beings to our parents.

    I really hope that you will understand. Thank you for your time and goodbye.

    #868052
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..see you really don’t believe what scripture says do you?  It amazes me how little you people know scriptures.  Berean I give you just one  on this Ok.

    Heb 2:18…..“for in that he “himself”  has suffered “being” TEMPTED,  he is able to succour them that are tempted”.   

    There are other places also,  like him being “tempted” in the wilderness 40 days.  If you mean did he give in to temptation, NO,  because he was Kept from giving in  by the anointing Spirit of God, that was upon him, which he recieved at the Jordan river.  Jesus seccours us by showing us how he was “KEPT” from sinning and it is the same way he was ‘Kept’ from sinning , by the  same Spirit of God the Father being “IN” Us ,  just as it was in him. 

    You need to start to believe what Jesus said and did, stop  “worshiping” him as your God. If you want to be like him then start doing what he did  said to do, He is the “WAY” to have a right relationship with God the Father, who he “worshipped” as his God, and our God, as his Father and our Father,  see not an ounce of difference between us his ‘brothers, and him, the “MAN” Jesus the Christ.  (The anointed one). We also are anointed one of God. 

    Did he need to be baptized for him, he sure did, just as we also should be, he  was our “EXAMPLE” how to have a right relationship with God the Father, and it is “EXACTLY” the same as His. 

    Berean start focusing your attination on what he said and did, stop trying to make him your God, and worshiping him as such, that is  what “IDOLATERS” do. Start seening him as a “REAL” HUMAN BEING, in every way exactly like we are, and come to see how God the Father through his Spirit turned  him into a “PERFECT”  HUMAN BEING, EXACTLY AS HE CAN US ALSO.

    The Gospel message  was not “just about”,   the messenger, it was about the “kingdom” of God , the Father in ALL his human creation, and how he would forgive us and cleans us from all  our sins,  thats the “good news”, or Gospel of the Kingdom of God. 

    God the Father used an ordinary human being, he brought forth from the Childern of Israel, the tribe of “Judah” and made him his sacrifice for the Sins of the world.

    It was through man sin came into the world, and it is through man kind it was paid for. The man Jesus from mankind paid the price for our forgiveness.  It was not any preexisting being of anykind that paid that price for our sins. Why? ,you might ask, well for one thing it was not a preexisting being that sinned,  it was a man, and therefore by man It had to be atoned for.

    But Who takes  full responsibility for all  creation both,  the good and the evil , is it not God himself who does, so then it was God himself that Gave his “uniquely” begotten son , from mankind, and offered him up as “his” own sacrifice for the Sins of all the world, why because he and he alone “created everything in existence, and himself takes full responsibility for everything that happened, even in mankind.  JESUS IS GOD THE FATHERS SACRIFICE FOR SIN not his own sacrifice for sin, but GOD THE FATHERS SACRIFICE.  

    “for God  so loved the world he gave his only (uniquely)  begotten son,   that whosoever believes in him,  “should not”  parish,  but  have everlasting Life.” , it says should not , it dosen’t say will not.  Because all rebellion will be dealt with. 

    You can really believe in Jesus and still parish, is the way I see it is written. We must do what he says and does , he obeyed one God, and he Kept his Commandments and told us to also to, he only worshipped “ONE” God, not a triune of Gods. Just One  who do you “worship”, the man Jesus, or who the “man’ Jesus,  worshiped?  Nearly all your preaching and teaching is about Jesus, hardly never about the Father and God of Jesus,  the one Jesus was “always” talking to and about. Why is that Berean?

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

    #868053
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus has the same exact nature as his Father.

    He is not an inferior being to his Father any more than we are inferior beings to our parents.

    I really hope that you will understand. Thank you for your time and goodbye.

    We know that the head of Christ is God. This alone shows us that there is one greater than Christ.  So what does Jesus himself say about his status with God?

    “You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

    And yes, you can be equal in nature, but not in rank.

    Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.…

    What is clear Danny is in basic terms is the son is the greatest except for God. No one is greater than God, not even his son. There is a reason that God is called the Most High.

    God is the Most High and Jesus Christ was made Lord of all by God.

    #868054
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    “see you really don’t believe what scripture says do you?  It amazes me how little you people know scriptures.  Berean I give you just one  on this Ok.

    Heb 2:18…..“for in that he “himself”  has suffered “being” TEMPTED,  he is able to succour them that are tempted”.

    There are other places also,  like him being “tempted” in the wilderness 40 days.  If you mean did he give in to temptation, NO,  because he was Kept from giving in  by the anointing Spirit of God, that was upon him, which he recieved at the Jordan river. ”

     

    Me

    Jesus did not begin to be tempted after his baptism …. He was tempted long before. The bible does not relate facts (that I know), but it has to be a reality.
    And he was kept from sinning because the Spirit of the Father was in Him.
    The baptism of Jesus was his commitment of a good conscience to be the SAVIOR of the world, an Example for all men. He marks the beginning of his earthly ministry for humanity

    THE FATHER TESTED THAT HE WAS HIS BELOVED SON IN WHOM HE PUT ALL HIS AFFECTION.

     

     

     

    #868058
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean,  Jesus is “exactly” as we are made , he came to his “only” existence through the loins of his earthy Father King David, God took that DNA and planted it in MARY, just like scripture shows  and he said he was going to do to king David.  Jesus never preexisted his birth on this earth,   he is a Son of (from) mankind just  as he said over eighty times he was. Why can’t you believe him, do you think you know better then he did, where he came  from, he was sent by God into the world to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.  But he himself was from the root of Jesse  as an “offspring” of King David. Just like scriptures say he was. What part of all those scriptures Jodi and I have quoted over,  and over,  and over here you don’t understand?  Are you people “completely” oblivious to them? Are they not all in your bibles too?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #868059
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: GOD IS SPIRIT and can INDWELL any flesh he Choses to,

    Me: THAT’S WHERE YOU’RE WRONG,  SPIRITUALLY WEAK and dumpd in

    YOUR CARNAL MENTALITY!

    WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    GOD COULD NEVER INDWELL IN

    ANYTHING DIRECTLY AS HIS PARTICLE IS TOO POWERFUL, AND HE DESTROYS WHOEVER AND WHATEVER IS THE LEAST IMPERFECT,

    THUS HIS ONLY UNIQUE ABODE IS HIS SON.

    THE FATHER’S HOUSE! John14:2

    THE FACT THAT THE KINGDOM IS IN ACTUAL FACT

    OF THE SON, NOT OF THE FATHER.

    NOW BETWEEN THE SON AND THE FATHER THERE’S ALWAYS THE HOLY GHOST. THUS WHEN ONE LOOKS AT

    THE PARTICLE OF GOD,

    THE CORE IS THE FATHER, THE EXTERNAL IS “THE WORD” AND IN BETWEEN IS THE HOLY GHOST. 1 John 5:7, IN THIS MANNER THE FATHER IS BOTH PROTECTED FROM THE LEAST SIN FROM CREATURES, AND ALSO THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT EMPOWERS “THE WORD” TO PROTECT ALL CREATURES FROM BEING DESTROYED BY THE FATHER, THUS

    “THE WORD” IS ACTUALLY AND PRECISELY

    ETERNAL LIFE, 

    HE SIMPLY SUSTAINS ALL EVEN SATAN HIMSELF.

    John 1:3….and without him was made nothing that was made.

    THE FATHER, IN A MODE TO SAY, IS ALLERGIC TO SIN, AND INSTANTLY DESTROYS COMPLETELY THE LEAST IMPERFECTION, EVEN BEFORE IT ACTUALLY OCCUR. THANKS TO “THE WORD” SLAIN LIKE  A LAMB ……IN ALL CREATURES’ HEART.

    THUS IT IS “THE WORD”  MADE FLESH JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, WHO IN ACTUAL FACT IS DIRECTLY

    ATTACHED TO ALL CREATURES. ONE WITH THEIR SUBSTANCE!!!

    THE PURE GENUINE REASON THAT

    HE WAS MADE FLESH. SIMPLY AS IN HIM, IN HIS EMBODIMENT, HE WAS COMPOSED OF

    THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE WORLD, PRECISELY BY THAT SPECK OF HIS SPIRIT HE LEFT IN ALL CREATURES’ HEART.

    BOTH THE GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN AND 

    THE GENERATIONS OF EARTH

    ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM.

    NO MATTER WHAT AND WHOM, AND WITHOUT HIM

    WITHOUT HIS SPIRIT, NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY EXIST! HE IS

    ETERNAL LIFE! 

    John 15:1I AM the 

    TRUE

    vine;

    and my Father is

    the husbandman. 

    2Every branch (CREATURE)

    IN ME,

    that beareth not fruit,(IMMEDIATELY)

    he will take away:

    and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 

    3Now you are clean by reason of

    the word,

    which I have spoken to you. 

     

    REFLECT: THE FATHER PRONOUNCES FROM WITHIN

    THE HOLY GHOST,

    THE VOICE OF GOD, the Son of God, Jesus’divine nature IN JESUS’SOUL,while

     

    JESUS THE SON/DIVINE OF MAN, 

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, Jesus’human nature, PRODUCES

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD!

    4Abide in me,

    (NOT IN THE FATHER, NOT POSSIBLE FOR HUMANS)

    JESUS IN THE ABOVE ASSERTED THAT THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ARE

    ALL EMBODIED IN HIM, 

    THE FACT THAT HE WAS BAPTIZED FOR THE SAKE OF THE HUMAN RACE

    ALL JUSTIFIED IN HIM.

    BORN AGAIN IN THE WATER AND IN THE HOLY GHOSTJohn 3:5

    IN ORDER TO HAVE MANY BRETHREN, OBVIOUS, THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM.

    DECLARED BY JESUS’ OWN WORDS TO JOHN:

    Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill

    all justice. 

    HOW???

    JESUS AS A SPIRIT, THROUGH THE PROCESS OF THE WORLD,  EMPTIED HIMSELF AND LEFT BEHIND A SPECK OF HIS SPIRIT IN EVERY CREATURE’S HEART

    ETERNAL LIFE,

    FROM WHERE GOD IN HIM CREATED ALL,

    Ephesians 4:8,Wherefore he saith: Ascending on high, he led captivity captive;

    he gave gifts to men.

    WHAT ARE THE GIFTS Gene??? WHICH ONLY JESUS COULD FURNISH! ATTACHED WITH HUMAN SUBSTANCE! Hebrews 4:12

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD,Rev.13:8

    …and I in you.

    CONFIRMED: JESUS “THE WORD” IS IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE,

    IN THEIR HEART, FROM WHERE HE SPOKE, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AND STILL SPEAKS John 8:24-25 …the beginning, who also speak unto you. )

    As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine,

    so neither can you, unless you abide

    IN ME. (NOT IN THE FATHER,)

    HUMANS ACHIEVE SPIRITUAL STATE ONLY IN AND BY

    “THE WORD” JESUS, MADE FLESH, THE SON/DIVINE OF MAN.

    THE FACT THAT HE SPIRITUALIZED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL IN HIM BEFORE HE WAS ARRESTED!

    Luke 13:32 And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day

    I am consummated. 

    Gene, and Jodi, THE ABOVE ON ITS OWN CONFIRMS

    JESUS’PRE-EXISTENCE!

    5I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS ASSERTED THAT

    NO JESUS NO GOD!

     6If any one abide not in me, (EMPHATICALLY CONFIRMED)

    he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and

    cast him into the fire, and he burneth

    WATCH IT Gene!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ.

    #868061
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……before you go into these long non scriptural rambling of your, just  produce a single scripture or two,  that shows where I am wrong, you own word means nothing to me nor anyone else here. Rambling on just shows how really ignorant you are about scriptural truth.

    You said God could never indwell in anyone. Well scripture say that not true,

    “if the Spirit of Him That raised Jesus from the dead, “DWELL” IN YOU, then he which raised Jesus christ from the dead, shall “also” quicken your mortal body”.  

    Did you notice the word,   “ALSO” there , another words exactly as he (God the Father did Jesus’ body).

    Heres what the apostle Paul said, “know you not that your “body” “IS”,  the TEMPLE,  of  the LIVING GOD”.?  did you know that Carmel? 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #868064
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Carmel……before you go into these long non scriptural rambling of your, just  produce a single scripture or two,  that shows where I am wrong, you own word means nothing to me nor anyone else here. Rambling on just shows how really ignorant you are about scriptural truth.

    Not commenting about Carmel here, but this statement is perfect for Jodi. Could you pass it on to her please.

    #868065
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But he himself was from the root of Jesse  as an “offspring” of King David. Just like scriptures say he was. What part of all those scriptures Jodi and I have quoted over,  and over,  and over here you don’t understand?  Are you people “completely” oblivious to them? Are they not all in your bibles too?

    This applies to him coming in the flesh. But we also understand his ancient origin. He was with God in the beginning. That’s the part you are having trouble with.

    #868066
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    Jesus was tempted throughout his earthly life, from childhood, and it was the Spirit of God who kept him from sinning.

    #868069
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..First of all you must reach the age of acountability first  before a sin is accounted against you,   but I am sure God the Father was indeed guiding Jesus’ thoughts early on in his life, as well as his parents also.  Jesus it say grew in understanding and stature, he wasn’t born with it appears.

    But never the less it’s says he knew no sin,  then he was  a “perfect” human being.  But a human being non the less.  Giving him a “prexistent” status,  moves him away from his humanity, and gives him an advantage over us , making him appear different then we are.

    That view cheapens his actual sacrifice, and brings in a “fraudulent” act,   commited by God, and Jesus.

    The only true sacrifice  for the sins of mankind, would have to come from a person from man kind, and inorder to fulfill prophesy,  he had to come from the loins of  ABRAHAM, and Jesse,  and king David. That is if you “truly” believe what is written  our scriptures.  Those scriptures are what Jodi has given over and over in great detail here many times, but you and others choose to completely ignore them.

    The Jesus you people Preach,  IS NOT A “TRUE”  HUMAN BEING,  BUT A PREEXISTING BEING “DESGUISED” in a human body. You do not preach Jesus as coming into his “only” existence  as a flesh and blood human,  and what did John say about that, “whosoever “denies”  that Jesus came not in the flesh is Anitchrist.   John didn’t mean came from another form of existence either, he meant he came into his “only” true existence as a human being. 

    What false Christanity has done to Jesus under the sway of Satan , is exactly what 2ths2,  say,  you have taken a man and turned the “IMAGE” of him,  into your God and worship him as such. It’s all there for those who have eyes to see.   Don’t just read 2ths2,  study it and pray that God the Father will let you understand it. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    ,

    #868070
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …..I am not having trouble with that , because that’s simply not true, Jesus never existed a single day , before his birth on this earth, he came into his only existence, through the linage  given in scriptures, he did “preexist” , however in the “PLAN”  and “will” of God,  From the foundations of the earth, now that part is  true. Because that was and is God the Father goal for “all” his human creation , and was his perpose from the very beginning of his “Crown Jewel” of  his creation, “MANKIND”.  

    Satan wants you to believe God’s Creation of mankind is garbage, and his ministers preach it that way.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #868071
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    you

    “But never the less it’s says he knew no sin, then he was a “perfect” human being. But a human being non the less. Giving him a “prexistent” status, moves him away from his humanity, and gives him an advantage over us, making him appear different then we are.”

    me

    This is where the bottom hurts badly …

    The Bible tells us that he did not know sin, for if he had, he would have needed a Savior and could not have offered himself as the atoning victim on the cross to save us from sin.

    2 Cor.5 :20   Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    [21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, WHO KNEW NO SIN; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    2 Peter 2:22  Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
    [24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

     

    Hebrews 4:15   For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    Hebrews 7:26   For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

    1 John 3:5  And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

     

     

     

    #868072
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. ….I never said Jesus sinned.  AND I DO acknowledge and “REALIZE”  he is a “high preist”  of God the Father . But none of that makes him a “preexisting” being of anykind.  

    We need to believe exactly what scripture says,  “but unto us there is but “ONE” God and “one” mediator, between God and men, “THE MAN”, Jesus Christ. 

    But you go beyond that and make him your God and a preexisting being of somekind,  you move the Man Jesus to a God level,  and remove him from  his human roots, you really do not see Jesus as a “man” , at all,  so in that you have moved Jesus away from your own idenity with him, and made him  object of “worship” , a God,  which is a sin. 

    Remember it was God who said….“you shall have “NO” God besides me”. BUT YOU as nerealy All Christanity,  by FOLLOWING SATAN’S MINISTERS , HAVE  MOVED JESUS OUR BROTHER AWAY FROM US, and the rest of MANKIND, . bad form Berean

    If you don’t see “The MAN”  Jesus,  as a fellow human being , perfected by God the Father,  you simply do not see the real Jesus, it’s just that simple Berean. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

    #868073
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all….. after nearly 2000 years of false teachings of Satan and his ministers, about who Jesus really is, the waters has been so clouded hardly anyone can know t h e real Jesus, because of all the deception that has “already” occurred in the “apostate” churches,  which are the synoguges of Satan , where his “LIES ABOUT JESUS” have been taught for so long, there is “only” a few, a very few, that God has allowed  to see the truth.” 

    Jesus is not a God of anykind, never was and never will be, he did not exist before his birth on this earth, except in the plan and will of God the Father. 

    There it is,  the simple truth .

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

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